Superman II: Lester Cut vs. Donner Cut

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And now the latest and greatest in movies with

M wire Superman to the adventure continues with

the three villains from Krypton Each one with

the same powers as Superman Each one dedicated

to violence against mankind. Think of it. Three

supervillains. Or four. We can't even twice.

The adventure continues in Paris with Lois Lane.

I believe this is your floor. And the romance

continues. The adventure continues in Washington.

The world is on the brink of destruction. Superman,

can you hear me? And Metropolis is in ruins.

Is there no one on this planet to even challenge

me? Superman! General, would you care to step

outside? Revenge! Revenge! Now we're cooking,

huh? The big one's just as strong as Superman.

If you've only seen the first part, you haven't

seen the best part. The adventure continues in

Superman 2. Hello and welcome to the DC spotlight

volume 2 here on Mwire This of course is the

spotlight with the Superman films Which is brought

to you by the geek cast radio network and audible

comm I am one of your Steve John Mike and joining

me once again is movie revolt Dan. Hello. Hello

We seem to do a lot of hero movies together between

James Bond I guess technically being a hero depending

on which actor you choose to like and of course

Superman is the ultimate superhero We were going

to be joined by Octobotamus, but he had hockey

issues come up where he had to go play hockey.

So we won't be here for five hours debating which

cut is better, Lester or Donner. I'm sure Dan

has his opinion and I have my opinion, and that'll

be that. But yeah, this is Superman 2, Lester

versus Donner. When did you first see this one?

Wow again like Superman one I really don't know

when I first saw it's just one of those movies

I remember seeing when I was a little younger

Probably on TV or VHS And then when the blu -rays

came out of seeing them on blu -ray and I probably

honestly didn't see the Donner cut until 2006

well, yeah, obviously not even I didn't Policy

to like 2009 or so. I didn't really Superman

2 has never been Superman films. I never really

been a huge I never been a huge fan of them.

I did not that I disliked them They're just not

something I was would go to very often But so

yeah the first Superman 2 or the first cut of

it probably when I was a young kid so, you know,

yeah, I I Remember seeing the TV version of it

a few times, but that was like when I was Between

six and nine so between 86 and 89 like Obviously,

I wasn't seeing this in theaters because it came

out the same year. I was born you know, but I

Wish there wasn't this whole thing about Lester

versus Donner and what the Salkinds wanted and

I just I wish it You they you know, I understand

her, you know Everyone's getting into arguments.

Everyone's gonna get into arguments over money

and everything else, but Jesus Christ Just let

whatever version be the official version be that

version not have this Whole controversy and you

know, I like Richard Donner as a director I loved

him doing lethal weapon 4 or not look the lethal

weapon franchise I should say, you know and all

that but it's like holy crap And I think because

the Salkinds as far as I know and I'm just going

off memory I'm not reading anything as the Salkinds

didn't want to give him any control on Superman

one. Is that correct? Well, it was they had a

constant battle like when they were shooting

shooting They tried to shoot Superman one and

Superman two at the same time Right. Yeah Like

everything that Gene Ackman is in like that was

done while they were shooting Superman 1 That's

why in beginning of Superman 1 you have that

moment with General Zod and all those people

But and then there was like we talked about how

Warner Brothers didn't put any money behind this

franchise. It was all on the producers It was

all You know, they were the ones kind of flipping

the bill So I think that caused them to kind

of constrain Donner who probably had you know

different ideas what he wanted to do so that

caused tension and so I think that's really if

Yes, I understand it all depends on whose money

it is that who gets the final say don't get me

wrong I understand that concept but I Want to

know what Donner's vision was for the first film

without spitting the world backwards That's my

biggest issue with the Superman 2 Donner Cut

is that it is the exact same friggin thing that

happened. Granted in the second film it's to

re -entrap Zod and not to save Lois, but it's

the same. Technically to me, and you can correct

me if I'm wrong in saying this, that whole time

travel spinning the world back to me is a plot

device to further the plot along. Am I correct

in saying that or not? It basically is, but what

happened in his cut of Superman 2, they did kind

of... Not only in his cut of Superman 2 did they

change Superman 2, but they also changed the

ending of Superman 1. They retconned it, as it

would be said. So the idea was that he didn't

spin the Earth backwards at the end of Superman

1. That didn't happen. Lois never died. She was

never really involved in that final thing. The

nuclear bomb that was set off to destroy New

Jersey was thrown into space and that's what

Opened the phantom zone, right? Yeah, that's

what JT will tell us in just a minute. Yeah,

but yeah It's a weak plot. I mean that the whole

thing about spinning the world backwards No matter

where you place it within Superman 1 or Superman

2 It's it's a black eye on this entire franchise

because it's like the dumbest thing ever. It

makes no sense Well, yeah, I mean it's like You

know, for those of you who possibly may be Phineas

and Ferb fans, it's like Doof and Schmertz trying

to use a magnetism magnifier to pull the eastern

seaboard in a westerly direction. It's not going

to, you know, it's just, it's just all kinds

of wonky hell. And that's why I prefer the Lester

cut of Superman 2, because it was a different

ending than what I had previously seen. Granted,

granted, you know, the kiss of kill memory is

you know it's lame but at least it wasn't the

same friggin thing that happened in the first

film an issue with that too that ending once

you introduce the aspect of time ratio or time

travel you kind of lose a lot of tension because

it's like well if this thing happens you can

just go back in time and undo it like that that's

kind of an issue wherever every time you bring

up time travel that's always a problem yeah Yeah.

Alright, let's head it over to JT with just the

facts. The film begins with a look back upon

the crime that General Zod and his cohorts perpetrated

prior to Krypton's destruction, where they break

into a lab and destroy an important data crystal.

Or so Zod thinks, as the entire setup was a trap,

set by Jor -El to prove that Zod had grown power

hungry and sought to rule Krypton. The tree was

captured, and as we saw in the first film, sentenced

to exile within the Phantom Zone. But before

the sentence is carried out, Zod utters a very

stereotypical villain threat. Fast forwarding

time to the end of the first Superman film, we

see Superman toss the first nuclear missile into

space where it explodes. Now, there are two versions

of the film, the theatrical release and the Donner

Cut, but more on that later. But just so you

know, in the theatrical version, Superman saves

reporter Lois Lane in the city of Paris from

a terrorist H -bomb by throwing it into space.

Regardless of which cut of the movie you saw,

the explosion of either bomb has the unintended

consequence of destroying the portal to the Phantom

Zone and setting free General Zod and his friends.

Exposure to the rays of Earth's yellow sun quickly

give them the same powers as Superman, and they

land on the moon and attack some astronauts before

making their way to Earth. Landing near the small

town of East Houston, Idaho, Zod, Non, and Ursa

make use of their respective superpowers to wreak

havoc on the town, effortlessly warding off the

police. Before long, Zod and the others head

to Washington D .C. and take over the White House,

ousting the president and demanding the son of

Jarrell to come and kneel before Zod. At the

same time as this, Lex Luthor escapes from prison

in a hot air balloon with the help of Miss Tessmacher,

leaving the bumbling Otis behind. Still set on

his vendetta against Superman, Luthor has created

a device which is homed in on the energy of the

Fortress of Solitude. Traveling to the North

Pole, Luthor and Miss Tessmacher gain access

to the fortress, and Lex activates Hollow Jor

-El, who tells the balding braniac about Zod

and his people. Luther then thinks to offer his

services to the Kryptonians as a liaison of sorts.

He then makes his way to the capital and offers

to lead Zod to the son of Jor -el, asking for

only a small reward in return. Beachfront property.

What do you want? Australia. And while this is

all going on, Clark Kent and Lois Lane are in

Niagara Falls on assignment from the Daily Planet.

Clark attempts to use the romantic locale to

get closer to Lois, while Lois begins to suspect

that Clark is really the man of steel. When Clark

goes off to get some snacks, a young boy falls

off a railing, forcing Clark to change into Superman

and save his life. Lois tries to talk to Superman,

but he takes off too quickly, and Lois becomes

suspicious of how Clark and Superman are never

in the same place at the same time. Now again,

there are two different scenes from here on.

In the theatrical release, Lois drops a hairbrush

into the fireplace in her room, and Clark, not

thinking, grabs it, inadvertently revealing his

secret to her. In the Donner Cut, Lois pulls

a gun loaded with blanks on Clark and fools him

into revealing his secret. Either way you slice

it, Lois and Clark finally admit their true feelings

for each other. Clark then changes into Superman

and flies Lois to the fortress unaware Luther

has invaded his home. They enjoy a romantic candlelit

dinner before going to bed and making love to

each other. Upon waking the next day, Clark consults

the Jor -El hologram and asks him what to do.

and the hologram advises that Clark forego any

personal happiness in order to fulfill his mission

of protecting the Earth. He eventually decides

to give up his powers to live as a normal human

with Lois, and enters a special chamber that

Hollow Jarrell creates to remove his powers with

concentrated red sunlight. Lois and Clark then

make their way back to civilization, stopping

at a roadside diner. Clark, boy scout that he

is, tries to intervene when a rude customer bullies

the staff. completely unaware of how he has changed.

The bully puts a beating on Clark, leaving him

bloody and bruised. It's then that Clark sees

a news report about Zod taking over, realizing

that he made a mistake in sacrificing his abilities.

Clark sends Lois back to Metropolis while he

begins the long, arduous journey back to the

fortress. After nearly freezing to death, Clark

arrives and manages to reactivate the crystal

console that controls the fortress. Jarrell returns

and admonishes Clark for what he did, but relents

and says he will return Clark's powers, but it

will result in the deactivation of the fortress.

As the fortress starts to reverse the process,

Jarrell seemingly materializes in front of Clark

to reassure his son of what's going on. Back

at the Daily Planet, Jimmy and Perry try to figure

out what happened to Superman, while Lois worries

about Clark. Soon Zod, Urs, and Non arrive with

Luther in tow. They start tearing up the joint

looking for Superman. However, the Man of Steel

soon returns, his arrival announced by a sonic

boom. General? Would you care to step outside?

Superman taunts Zod and the rest outside, where

they wreck a good part of the city before long.

After clashing with each villain in turn, Superman

heads for the fortress, followed by Zod and his

crew, and Lois and Lex. Upon arriving at the

fortress, the Kryptonians call out Superman,

who exit the Crystal Chamber from earlier. Zod

then betrays Luther, telling Non to kill him.

Superman tries to get Luther to lead the three

into the chamber so it can remove their powers,

but the conniving criminal tells Zod and his

life is spared. Superman then enters the chamber,

faking the removal of his own powers while the

lights turn red outside. Upon exiting, Zod commands

him to kneel and swear fealty to him, but Superman

crushes Zod's hand. Luther realizes that Superman

was protected by the chamber, which had been

reversed to affect everyone on the outside. Superman

tosses Zod into the depths of the fortress, while

Non takes himself out when he tries and fails

to fly, falling down as well. Lois even gets

in a few licks when she decks Ursa and sends

her to join the others. Luther tries to convince

Superman that he was on his side the whole time,

but Superman ain't buying it. Now again, here

is where the two films differ. In the Donner

Cut, Superman takes Luther back to prison, destroys

the fortress with his heat vision, and breaks

up with Lois. He then executes the turn -back

time maneuver from the first film, undoing the

events in the film so that Zod is never released

from the Phantom Zone. In the theatrical cut

of the film, Superman returns Luther to prison

and then erases Lois' memory of the film's events

with a kiss, leaving her the only one who doesn't

know anything about what's gone on. It's never

shown what has happened to Zod after the fight

in the fortress. Either way, the film ends with

Superman returning the stars and stripes to the

top of the White House and assuring the President

that he won't fail again, before flying off into

the sunset and on towards his next adventure.

Oh, and he gets a little payback on the bully

from the diner too. This order's to go. I'm,

uh, terribly sorry about all the damage, sir.

Well, I've been, uh, working out. Superman 2

was released into theaters again during the Christmas

holidays of 1980 on December 4th. The film is

somewhat infamous for having two directors, Richard

Lester and Richard Donner, who was largely uncredited

for his work, but more on that in a bit. The

entire principal cast of the first film returned

for the sequel, which included Christopher Reeve

as the man of steel, Margo Kidder as Lois Lane,

and Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor. The cast now

also includes Terrence Stamp as General Zod,

Jack O 'Hallerhand as the mute non, and Sarah

Douglas as the flare -wearing Ursa. Much like

the first film, Superman 2 received praise from

many film critics and currently enjoys a fresh

rating of 88 % on Rotten Tomatoes. Roger Ebert

enjoyed the film, saying the sequel lost none

of the charm or the fun of the first, ultimately

giving the film four stars. David Kerr of the

Chicago Reader and Janet Maslin of the New York

Times also shared Ebert's opinion. In his review,

Kerr said that Superman 2 was as perfect a matinee

movie as we have ever had, and Maslin said that

the combination of Richard Lester and Richard

Donner made for a very formidable alliance. Now,

you may be wondering why there were two directors

on one movie. This is because, partly through

filming the film, director Richard Donner and

the producers of the Salkinds clashed over the

direction of the film. Donner said he wanted

to continue the somewhat epic scope that he had

envisioned with the first film, while the Salkinds

wanted the production to go in a more campy direction.

The Salkinds, however, contend that Donner had

gone over budget on the film, resulting in his

being fired and Richard Lester coming on board

to complete it. Surprisingly, as a result of

the two directors' work, Superman 2 is widely

regarded as one of the best comic book movies

of all time. The controversy of Richard Donner's

firing eventually led to a kind of vindication

for him in 2006. A special edition DVD was released,

dubbed Superman 2 The Donner Cut, in which Donner's

vision of the film was recreated with stock footage

and test scenes. You may also be surprised to

hear that Gene Hackman was barely in the film.

Hackman left the production of Superman 2 and

a show of support for his friend Richard Donner,

necessitating Richard Lester to use body and

voice doubles to complete scenes involving Lex

Luthor. The character of General Zod would go

on to become one of Superman's most popular villains,

resulting in multiple versions of the character

throughout the Superman franchise. Richard Donner

himself would introduce the character and his

cohorts into the DC Comics universe in The Last

Sun's story arc in 2006, which he also wrote.

The film is also somewhat infamous for giving

Superman powers and abilities that defy explanation,

not unlike the Superman comics of the 1950s.

For example, does anyone else remember the plastic

wrap S -Shield trap that Superman uses in the

theatrical cut? Or the super memory erasing kiss

Superman employs to make Lois forget what has

happened? Must have got that one from where Batman

got his shark repellent bat spray. Suffice it

to say, I love this movie. Superman 2 is one

of my all -time favorite comic book movies and

one of my all -time favorite sequels. It takes

everything that was great about the first film

cranks it up a notch and adds more fun elements

than we had in the first one. Christopher Reeve

was spot on as Superman and he had a villain

just as perfectly cast in Terence Stamp who brought

a sense of malevolence and grandeur to General

Zod. Definitely one of my favorite comic book

movie villains of all time. This has been Just

the Facts for Superman 2. I'm JT from Saskatoon

and now I'm sending it back to Mike and the rest

of the MYR crew. Later. Thank you so much JT

for those just the facts and yes JT did bring

up several things that I brought up originally

but that's okay because I had already listened

to his segment. That's why I kind of was asking

in the beginning about certain stuff and JT did

bring up all those plot points. I do like how

he ended that clip. Good old Jay. You always

rely on him for some snoochie -boochies I guess.

Oh man this movie. This movie is it's so I Find

it more interesting than the first film it certainly

fits in today's standards a lot more than Superman

one does just with the pacing and As a kid, I

think I probably enjoyed this one a lot more

because there's a lot more action to it It it

gets right into the story. It's the pacing is

quicker. I mean there are some issues with Within

the middle Act as Lois and Clark go into the

their investigation of the Hollywood of the honeymoon

scandal But overall like seeing these two baddies

these two Superman or these, you know Superman

and all these, you know Zod fight off. It's that's

what you want and a Superman movie. You want

to see two epic You know characters go toe -to

-toe and this is what Superman 2 gives you Yeah

Like, to me, specifically for Lex Luthor, and

Lex is in this briefly, I mean, he's not just

in five minutes of it, he's in maybe a total

of 15 to 20 minutes of the film in all from beginning

to end, but Lex Luthor plots nowadays, specifically

to animation, are so much more interesting. than

what Lex did in Superman 1. I mean, sure, it's

Lex Luthor, it's Superman, we expect Lex to throw

kryptonite at him, and we expect to, I guess,

kind of, somehow sickly enjoy that Lex Luthor

threw, you know, a piece of his own planet at

him to kill him, but... we expect that from lex

versus superman as far as the kryptonite and

all that stuff we expect that stuff but the whole

land of uh... you know we mentioned it last week

with the whole land development like that will

superman one is not an action movie it it isn't

and superman two is because you have people coming

back from his home planet who are criminals who

at some point I assume there is a history tracks

with Jor -El narrating I don't think it's in

the film like specifically like that first history

tracks was in the first film where he's talking

to talking to Kal -El I assume at some point

the reason why Clark knows all this stuff is

that there was a Jor -El history track about

about Zod in all those little crystals but no

I love this this movie is so good this movie

is so well done like you said the pacing is good

yeah there are a couple of points where it's

like oh and really for me again just like last

week again for me where the oh moments come from

is Lois and Clark pretending for this assignment

like oh my god that's first of all a honeymoon

scandal that's your biggest friggin story that

you have to go to friggin canada for really like

oh god that is so dumb you uh you talked about

uh you know one thing we didn't mention we talked

about The difference between the Lester cut and

the Donner cut, one thing the Lester cut, like

you kind of touched upon, it doesn't have, is

Marlon Brando. He's not in that cut at all. They

kind of, his voiceover when he goes to the Fortress

of Solitude, it's... his mother and not and not

Brando and that was also because Brando was suing

the The producers because he felt that he was

not fully paid. He made 50 million dollars I

think for Superman one plus the back -end deal

So he was supposed to get you know portions of

the profit and Superman one was a huge hit So

what they did is they kind of completely cut

him out of Superman. That's why there's no they

kind of the beginning of Superman 2, the similar

scenes, he's not in it. There's no voiceover.

And I think that's one aspect I do like about

the Donner cut. And regarding this being better

than the first one, I don't know if you can call

it better, but it's, like you said, it's more

of an action. What I mean is that it's a... As

far as filmmaking, I would say they're on par

as far as directing. You know even with the Lester

Donner thing in the second one. I would say it's

on par as far as effects It's essentially the

same effects what I mean as far as being better

than the first one is this plot was more interesting

to me This you know these criminals coming back,

and you know from Krypton, and you know wanting

you know of course nowadays. Oh Mustache twirling

I am a world domination type of you know that

we count that in today's standards as cliche,

but just watching these films back, this I feel

is a better plot than the plot that was in Superman

one is what I mean when I say this is better.

I do agree. I think the plot is better laid out

and there's the stories that are there are more

focused. There are different aspects. I mean,

Lex Luthor doesn't necessarily need to paint

this movie at all, but you have Gene Hackman.

So we're not you're going to use him because

he's Gene Hackman. But I do agree. And I think

it's kind of the norm with superhero movies.

I would say Spider -Man 2 is probably better

than Spider -Man 1, X -Men 2 better than X -Men

1, Dark Knight better than Batman Begins. Because

I think with that first one you always have to

tell that origin and that gets complicated because

then you also have to tie in the villain story

and that can get a little bit messy and that's

where things get a little bit bowed down and

that's where you tend to have more of the story

and less action. But in this most of the story

was already set up for us. Like we know all about,

you know, Zod and what what happened to him so

it kind of can get right into it and I think

that's great and a big fit we talked about it

last podcast, but you have to mention again that

You know general Zod in this Terrence Stamp is

freaking awesome. He's just he is so great He's

like this Shakespearean actor placed into a superhero

movie and it it oddly works and then him going

against Christopher Reeve It's the it's what

you want. It's as I could completely agree. It's

definitely more entertaining compared to the

last film. Yeah, because you have, because the

whole point of Superman, the whole point of Kal

-El in the House of El is that they want to help,

Jor -El's, I wouldn't say mission statement,

but his addendum to Kal -El was help them, don't

try to influence them, but help them. and you

see a contrast in this film with where superman

only uses his powers for good and you have these

world tyrants or you know planet dominating tyrants

who they see oh my god i am more power you know

you see it in stamps acting when he's like holy

crap i can lift a guy five feet off the ground

you know you see it in his acting when he first

finds out that the sun is given him powers It's

one of those things where it's a contrast between

Superman and Zod where As I said Superman as

long as uses powers for good and Zod will use

You know will abuse that power and take it. It's

a much more The only way I would ever and I know

they would never they can't do this now, but

the only way I would ever consider a Gene Hackman

Lex Luthor plot really really good is if they

ripped something out of Justice League and made

him mind -meld with Brainiac I'm sorry to say

but Like Lex is he's either one of two things.

He's either the mad scientist version of the

early comics or He's the evil businessman. I

don't think he can be like In the cartoons and

stuff, he was kind of both, but you need to make

his character one or the other, and you need

to not have him do dumbass plots. Because even

in this movie, even in the second movie, he basically

grovels down to Zod. You know, Lex in the first

movie is supposed to be this big, bad, mysterious

villain. And in the second one, because Zod is

all -powerful, Lex is just like your average

street dog Well, I do like how he tries to play

like every side of it and he tries to as we talk

You know Zod. It's kind of yeah, I do like that

He's you know, he wants to get Australia and

he loves his beachfront property But yeah How

did you feel about because in this we talked

about a little bit but you see that Lois and

Clark and they're starting in Lois You know discovers

the truth about Clark Kent and there's the two

different ways they do it Do you have a preference

of you know Lois basically shooting Clark Kent

or? You know the other version where he basically

falls over into the fire That's I know a key

point to That moment, I think, is where people

tend to lean towards the Donner Cut, typically.

What do you find yourself? The Donner Cut was

where she shot him, right? Yeah, well, basically.

And then the Leicester Cut is where he falls

into the fire. Yeah. Honestly, I... God, this

is gonna go against everything I believe in,

damn it. But I think it's better if she... I

think in that instance is where the Donner Cut

got it right, where she shoots him. I would have

preferred a third option, where he falls off

the falls. No, no, listen, he falls off the falls,

he changes, but the only thing he doesn't take

off is his glasses. So you have Superman with

glasses. I could see that. I agree. I like the

shooting aspect of it, too. It gets to the different

layers of it that he tries to shoot Kent, and

then he reveals that he's Superman, but then,

in fact, the gun was blank the entire time. Yeah,

because, I mean, the whole thing with him falling

into the fire, that's just, like, okay, sure,

I get it. Clark Kent is the disguised Superman,

is the, you know, is the main personality, but...

There's a certain aspect to Clarke's bumbling,

and Reeve had done it so well in the first film,

and in this one as well. But there has to be

a point where you have to, not necessarily your

pride takes over, but you have to give up that

whole bumbling thing. And I would think that

even if the hotel had cameras, Back then which

I'm sure they had surveillance back then, you

know You would think that even if it had cameras

in it You would think that you know, he would

be fine with just you know, just assuming it's

the two of them in the room You know and just

kind of just instead of just do either her shooting

him or My theory of him just falling off the

falls and then coming up with the glasses on

Just have have him stand there and have him take

the glasses off put him back on have him take

him on, you know She can't be Lois is not dumb.

Trust me. Yeah She can't she can't be that oblivious.

You know what I mean? sure, um, I guess too we

should also mention like When it comes to the

action and this I feel like there's some really

great action beats Like I love when they come

to Planet Houston and they're attacking the army

and all those moments and there's some comedic

moments for sure But Superman 1 had a lot of

comedic moments as well. People kind of look

at Lester for adding a lot of campy comedy, but

Superman 1 had a lot of campy comedy too, like

with Otis and a lot of other moments as well.

So did you have any issues with the comedy in

this? No, I didn't because it's one of those

things where the comedy isn't the fact that Zod

and his hench people are aliens. Like yes, technically

Superman Kal -El of Krypton is an alien but Superman's

been here for 20 30 years At the you know, by

the time he lands in the first film To the time

that he aged, you know when the time passes in

the first, you know what I mean? So he's been

there through, you know since a young child through

high school through whatever and into adulthood

and as odd and his cronies are full grown adults

landing on a foreign planet that they've never

known before so of course they're going to say

take me to planet houston you know i mean of

course they're going to do and the county that

doesn't that doesn't bother me at all because

that is something i would expect a foreigner

or someone to do that's that's just you know

that's just like you're i going over to England

or any other country we've never been to. You

know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. It's like me

going up to Niagara Falls when I was 12. Take

me to the Falls of Niagara. Of course, that's

not how they say it. You know what I mean? It's

one of those things where you're in a strange

land and you don't know anything. So that county

bit and that line of ... take me to planet Houston,

that does not bother me in the least bit. I think

that the comedy in this fits the tone overall.

It's similar to the first one. I mean, there

are moments where you're kind of like, OK, taking

a little bit too far with the fish out of water

stuff and whatnot. But it wasn't anything worse

than Superman 1. There are some issues I had

with. the Lester cut. I don't really have a preference

if you're going to say which one's better. I

slightly enjoyed the Donner cut a little bit

more just because it kind of it limits the stuff

in Niagara Falls. The beginning of Superman 2

is probably the weakest point of it because it

tries to it needs to come up with an explanation

of why Zod was able to escape from the from the

Phantom Zone, so they just have to have this

random terrorist act in France for no apparent

reason, and it doesn't make nearly as much sense

as the way it was done in the Donner Cut. So

I think that is maybe why I enjoyed the Donner

Cut a little bit more, but overall I think they

both have their own issues. But what did you

think of, you know, there's that action in the

beginning, like the Paris scene, and then there's

that fight in New York City with, you know, Superman

and Zod's army. How did you feel about the overall

action in the movie? The overall action of the

movie is damn good. Was it too hard to get the

actor, Fernand, to actually talk? Like, I get,

oh, you know, we need to have some sort of character

or some sort of character type that he's the

strong, muted slash mumbly type, you know, but...

Didn't really obviously non is there to be a

non character. I guess you could say to the point

where he's supposed to be the brute force of

Zod's army and the woman Ursa I don't I Just

don't get her I don't know there's something

I liked her I didn't I I'm not saying I don't

like her I'm saying I just like Like Zod is the

overall ruler Non is essentially a foot soldier

Other than reproduction aspects, I don't see

why Urs is there, and I know that's very sexist

of me to say, but outside of her and Lois having

a cat fight, I don't see her use. Let's say,

for example, the movie ended badly for Superman

and Zod took over. What is her role going to

be in the new Zod government? stay pregnant well

i i think she would have i'm assuming she'd have

more roles than that but i i think to me she

almost was the most evil everyone i know she

seemed to enjoy just the violence the most compared

to all the other characters like you know i think

zod had A sense of calmness to him like he was

just above everyone else, but I think she enjoyed

inflicting pain And I was with non I I got a

really big jaws vibe out of him like this big

huge strong guy that doesn't talk And I talked

we talked about last time. There's some familiar

vibes with James Bond and there's a lot in this

I mean even sergeant pepper shows up in in this

film as well as playing a sergeant for or playing

a sheriff who he was he was in the live and let

die and a few other Bond movies who You know,

we disagreed on his usefulness and in those films,

but uh Yeah But yeah, I think the action is it's

pretty steady. It's obviously it's been a long

time. It's been nearly It's been over 30 years

Wow, it's kind of crazy, but I think it holds

up pretty well, especially that the fight in

Manhattan just the their aerobatics and the wire

work is done really well. The set design is perfect.

It feels like they're in the middle of New York

City. It doesn't feel like a set. I think that's

a key part to why that works really well. Yeah,

it does. It very much does. I do like how the

bully scene Mirrors itself. I thought that was

really cool With the little diner scene yeah,

yeah, I like that I know here not you know nowadays

is like oh, and I'm not saying this is a bad

thing because I was bullied as a kid But you

know today everything is stand up stop bullying

now where? Technically if you watch this film

today or if you have a kid watch it today That's

technically Superman 2 is technically sending

a bad message to kids basically saying hey You

can get revenge on your bullies if you have heat

vision, you know That's not exactly sending the

best message to the children of today. But again,

this is a movie So that's the thing with me when

I was a kid I could pretty much my mom could

show me almost anything except horror stuff and

I knew the diff like I knew Superman having you

know heat -rate shoot out of his eyes was not

real would never be real so you didn't try to

you know Put a cape on and try to fly around

your your house at all Well, I jumped off the

couch a few times, but that's because I was waiting

for the the The back grapple to take hold in

the ceiling it never happened. Yeah, I was more

of a Batman fan as a kid. I like Superman. Don't

get me wrong I do but I net like I don't ever

think I ever had a Superman costume yet I can

count on one hand how many Batman costumes I

had But yeah overall I like the movie I think

it's a really really good interpretation both

cuts add something to it I just know I prefer

the Lester cut because it's what I've seen the

most like up until The whole thing with returns.

I didn't even know the whole controversy You

know what I mean? I just like the Lester cut

was the cut, you know Yeah, I had no idea I probably

should mention that the Donner cut really exists

because of Bryan Singer and he wanted to use

Use a lot of the the Brando stuff for his his

film and at that point They still had the lawsuit

with Brando so they had to settle with his estate

before he could use it and then that led him

to Let them to kind of releasing the Donner cut.

But yeah, I I don't know I never really had an

ownership of the Superman franchise like yourself.

I was never really huge Superman fan. I enjoyed

it I was never really a big part of my childhood.

It was always he always felt like a not a second

-tier character He was always a major character,

but he was always when I could always had issues

getting invested in and I think Being younger

to just the age of this movie compared to something

like, you know, Batman 1989 and those films I

gravitated towards those more so I know a lot

of people have a preference and I think to me

I kind of like the Donner Cup more just because

it's I'd like how they How tight that it makes

the first two films, but overall I don't really

think there's a huge difference I know people

make it seem like they're completely two different

movies that have nothing in common, but the differences

are really Minute. I mean, I think there's bigger

differences between say like the Blade Runner

original cut and the director cut of that film

compared to these two different versions of Superman

Yeah, and I mean you can take a look at essentially

You have to instead of a well, yes, you have

theatrical and directors But with this instance

in this whole argument of Lester and Donner you

essentially have two directors cuts of a movie.

Yes, the Lester cut was the theatrical cut, but

it's not like nowadays where, you know, in 2003

and then 2005, Mark Steven Johnson made Daredevil

and then he made Daredevil the director's cut.

You know what I mean? Where those are essentially

the same film with the exception of the fact

that in the director's cut he took out the love

story and focused more on You know the other

part of the story, you know what I mean? So but

this one here It's like like JT was saying in

the just the facts. He's pretty much the two

directors Cut out or added in certain elements

to each of their films to Compensate for what

was missing in the original the overall originality

of the plot of the second film I have to say

because of My age and all that and I know this

is gonna be blasphemy But it was because I am

because I was more comprehending by that time

I My Superman movies and I know this is gonna

be so bad to say people are gonna crucify me

for it Honestly, my Superman movies are three

and four Wow I know, I know, trust me, I know.

Don't get me wrong. I love the first film for

what it is, but looking at it as a 33 -year -old

guy and just seeing that lame plot of land development

and wanting to knock California off. Take that

plot point out and put something else in there

that's more interesting. That movie is a masterpiece,

as far as plot goes. You know everything else

from superman the movie and it's fine. It's a

wonderfully great beautiful film the superman

2 Depending on who you like depending on which

version you like you know that's all well and

good I think it's more interesting for me To

have you know the kiss of you know erase memory

then to have hey, I'm gonna Spin the world backwards

again, but you know and I know I hate I I know

I know I keep harping on that but for me it's

more of an interesting twist because I almost

felt in the Lester cut that they were going for

a Lois and Clark romance But at some point or

a Lois and Superman room like they were I mean

they slept together at one point in the Lester

cut So I mean it's one of those things where

the romance was building And, of course, the

kiss took it away at the end. Yeah, I think you

kind of had that romance a little bit with both.

Maybe a little bit more with the lesser cut.

But, yeah, I could... I guess you could say that

it was that aspect of Superman is a big part

of his character, that romance between Lois and

Clark. Like, with the Will They Won't Day, it's

one of those situations. And then once they actually

do, it's like, where do you go from there? Because

it's... That difficulty of okay. Well that tension's

no longer there because now they're actually

together. It's kind of Have not having them ever

actually kind of consummate their feelings for

each other tends to be the better way to go because

once they do it kind of All that's gone and you're

kind of left with what do we do now? Because

it's like, you know You have something with like

the x -files and molar and scully or other shows

like that And once they finally do get together

it kind of it There's no place to go after that.

So I think that's I could see why they decided

to kind of Make her forget whatever way they

tried which way is better turning the earth back

or magically kissing someone I don't know. They

both have their issues, but I guess kissing someone

has less Connotations with it than being able

to turn back time so I could see maybe why Lester

went the way he did But anyways, so what about

the release kit for this how we talked about

the different releases? Guarding luster and donor

cut but do you want to go over the actual DVD

media home releases? We can Let me see. Let me

pull it up At least reception the media releases

well, let's go over the broadcasting In 84 when

Superman 2 premiered on television 24 minutes

were reinserted into the film 17 minutes on ABC

much of the extra footage was directed by Richard

So basically they combined the Lester and Donner

cut for television Yeah in order for yeah, I

think the reason they could do that for television

compared to when they release it and theatrically

because in order for for Lester to be credited

as director a director has to direct 51 % of

a movie So once you put it on TV though, I don't

think that really applies that regulation. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of those things.

And what I find so interesting is, um, the, uh,

the fact that there's a Canadian version. Is

that where you fight for truth, justice in the

Canadian way? Apparently so apparently, you know,

Superman is. is all about bacon and lumberjacking.

During the 1980s, CFCF 12, Cable 11, screened

an edition of Superman 2 that was differently

edited to that of the one shown in the United

States on ABC. This particular version has only

been screened once in Canada. The first Canadian

broadcast of Superman 2 had an additional few

seconds of dialogue as Luther and Miss Tessmacher

were stopped on a snowbank admiring the fortress

of solitude. In the first U .S. broadcast, the

same evening, the scene begins abruptly as Luther

starts the snowmobile immediately after the dialogue

sequence. Scenes seen in the Canadian version

but not in the ABC version include a little girl

watching the destruction of East Houston by the

Kryptonians on TV, longer conversation between

Lois and Superman after he destroys the Fortress

of Solitude, Lex Luthor taking Perry White's

coffee during Times Square Battle. Way to go

there, Lex. Way to be a supervillain. Just steal

Perry's coffee. Lex and Ms. Tess Mocker admiring

the fortress, as I said, and Lex is negotiating

with Superman after they leave the fortress is

longer. It would have been interesting to me

to see what the longer version is of Lex negotiating

with Superman, but yeah, I don't know. More Gene

Hackman is always a good thing. Yeah, it's that's

true Honestly as far as the release and the DVD

version like I said last pretty much I'm gonna

say this every single Superman episode that we

do just get the The ultimate collector edition

that has the 14 discs if you're getting DVD or

eight discs if you're getting blu -ray I mean

outside of the fact that they'll probably do

a new version once Man of Steel comes out Later

this year currently before Man of Steel gets

released. That's your best and full Encompassing

Superman box set is if you just want regular

DVD. It's a 14 disc set if you want blu -ray

It's an 8 disc set and it has each of them have

each of each of them have the same features on

both no matter which one you get so Yeah Overall

Let's go ahead and rate this. We are the IGN

crew. One is don't watch this even if it's free

on TV. Two is worth a watch if it's free. Three

is worth adding to the Netflix queue. It really

makes me mad how Netflix contracts work. I really

want to sit in on a Netflix business meeting

one of these days and just see how they... go

about negotiating with studios because I know

at one point at least Superman 1 and 2 were on

Netflix for streaming. They are not as of right

now as far as I know. No, they are on HBO Go

though. I think HBO has the rights right now.

I think they try to get them when they can, but

I just recently watched them on HBO Go. Overall,

the film quality on HBO Go is pretty... Pretty

fantastic. But they're strange because they don't

have the fourth one, but they have the first

three. So I don't know if the fourth one is under

a different licensing or whatnot, but you can

find them there. Yeah, it might be. So yeah,

what do you rank Superman to 1 to 4? I gave Superman

1 a 4. and a perfect score and thinking this

one's a little bit better, I guess I would have

to do the same again for Superman 2. I guess

if you're going simply based off on a film standpoint

and a storytelling standpoint, I'd probably say

Superman 1 is better also for its legacy and

what it did for the superhero films in general.

But as an entertaining, if you want some great

action scenes, the little kid in me probably

prefers Superman 2, so I will also give Superman

2 a solid 4. I'm the same way this this movie

and specifically to like to me the I'm not gonna

repeat what I've already repeated, but I'm gonna

say something. I'm gonna word it a little differently

to me the daughter cut The first what is it maybe

15 minutes of it or however long that intro scene

is It's essentially recapping the first film

for me That's why I prefer the lester cut I I

give the lester cut a four out of four because

It it just deserves it it is a better story if

you're looking at it as Superman 1 was Donner,

Superman 2 is Lester's. It tells a completely

different story and completely different plot

devices are used in Superman 2 Lester versus

Superman 1 and all that. So yeah, Superman 2

the Lester cut gets a 4 from me as well. We're

gonna take a quick break. You're gonna hear some

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Superman's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes

can handle his sperm? I guarantee he blows a

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to carry his child? Sure, why not? He's an alien,

for Christ's sake. His Kryptonian biological

makeup is enhanced by Earth's yellow sun. If

Lois gets a tan, the kid could kick right through

her stomach. Only someone like Wonder Woman has

a strong enough uterus to carry his kid. The

only way he could bang regular chicks is with

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who advertised with us here on MWIRE and all

the other GCN shows. I'm not sure what kind of

final I'm I pretty much already said my final

thoughts Do you have anything else you want to

bring up about Superman 2 either one of the cuts?

I guess if you're gonna say anything about the

two is I I one thing I still don't understand

is just complete they're the teams that have

kind of formed between the two films like You

know that you have the Lester loyalists and the

Donner loyalists and and whatnot and I just think

if you look at them Without kind of the stigma

of what happened and kind of how you know Donner

little legitimately got kind of screwed by the

studio system. I don't think they're that different.

I think there's some They don't feel like two

different movies like some people make them out

to be And in the end if you're going to kind

of look at the overall quality of the films I

think they're about even they're they're not

them. They're much different. They what Donner

adds he also at takes away a few things that

Lester put in that I quite quite enjoyed, so.

But I think, too, more importantly, what Superman

2 does, just as a grand scope of things, is show

what you're capable of doing with a superhero

sequel and how you can, once the origin is set

in place, you can kind of allow your character

to further evolve and really add in some amazing

set pieces like this film does. And I think without

Superman 2 and it's how successful it was, we

maybe not. perhaps wouldn't get a film like The

Dark Knight or X -Men 2 or what have you. So

I think it's a really important movie beyond

just being, you know, beyond just the controversy

of the different cuts. Yeah, no, I agree. I think,

and I'll say this next week, the reason why I

brought up the whole fact of that three and four

are kind of like my movies. or because like I

think what would 3 come out in 83 right? yes

yeah yeah see by the time I saw 3 I saw 3 like

in 86 or 87 and I know 4 came out in 87 so the

reason why I like 3 the most has nothing to do

with Richard Pryor has nothing to do with the

money scheme nothing to do with any of that it

has to do with the kryptonite poisoning the fact

that you have two supermen one good one evil

you have two sides of it like that to me is what

is so interesting about that movie it has nothing

to do with the crappy subplot or the strange

relationship that what's -his -name and his bitch

have with each other look at that lady's creepy

as all hell but we'll get into that when we talk

about superman 3 next week I would like to thank

everyone for joining us here in M wires DC spotlight

volume 2 And for now I'm TF2 and Mike with Movie

Revolt Dan. Stay super ladies and gentlemen and

keep those film reels rolling. We'll see you

next week with Superman 3. just listen to Movie

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