Western Retrospective: The Searchers

Sentinel online now loading the geek cast radio

network of podcasts Hello and welcome to episode

236 of the cinema geeks I am one of your cinema

geeks optimus solo and joining me as usual is

the comic concierge. Hello, Dan Hey, how's it

going? It's going well. We are back at it in

our second episode here in our Western series.

If you didn't pay attention or haven't caught

our last episode yet, we covered Stagecoach,

the classic Western film with John Wayne directed

by John Ford. And now we are into our second

John Ford film in this series. And this would

be the 1956 film The Searchers. which also obviously

stars John Wayne. Before we get into the facts

with this one, Dan, why don't you just get a

quick overview of what your history was with

this film before we watch it this time, and then

kind of what you were thinking going in. Yeah,

this is one I did watch before. It was about,

thanks to Letterboxd, and that was literally

about 10 years ago. It was a decade ago. So,

you know, I still remember some of it. I definitely

remember, like, In overall enjoying it when I

first watched it, it may have had like some issues

here and there, but I was interested in going

back and having some more experience with Ford.

Now seeing Stagecoach and having that back in

my mind, curious like how that may impact my

overall viewpoint of this movie. But yeah, this

is my, I think probably second time I've watched

this. for me this was a blind spot just like

stagecoach and just like most of the films we're

going to cover here i think outside of a couple

um so it's blind watch i honestly i think stagecoach

was honestly the first john wayne film i'd ever

seen i think i think his entire filmography is

a blind spot for me i mean i know who he is and

how do you not know who he is you know if you've

grown up in this country like i guess in our

time period everybody's heard of him but i don't

think i'd seen any of his films from start to

finish So they're all blind spots. So I was going

in completely. I was interested though, because

of the fact that it's the same director, the

same actor, but we jumped like 17 years into

the future from stage coach. So I was interested

to see like what changed in those 17 years, both

with John Wayne and with just the genre in general.

So I was definitely intrigued going into this

one, but before we get too far into it, Dan's

going to lay some groundwork for us about the

searchers. And then we will come back and give

you guys our thoughts on the movie after this

watch. That'll be the day. Sorry. Forced to happen

after watching The Searchers, the next film in

our Western retrospective. The film is set in

Texas after the Civil War. It follows Ethan Edwards,

played by John Wayne, a former Confederate soldier

who returns home to his brother's ranch. Shortly

after his arrival, though, Comanche warriors

attack the homestead, killing the family and

abducting Ethan's younger niece. Debbie, played

by Natalie Wood. Ethan sets out on a years -long

journey to find Debbie, accompanied by his adopted

nephew Martin, as they track her across the vast

landscape of the American West. Ethan's obsessive

quest reveals his deep -seated hatred of Native

Americans and Rita's doubts for whether he intends

to rescue Debbie or kill her as she's assimilated

into the Comanche life. Over time, the search

becomes both a physical and psychological journey.

Martin represents the compassion and moral balance,

while Ethan embodies a vengeance and Rachel Presidiss.

In the film's climax, Ethan finds Debbie and

must confront his inner conflict. The film was

probably best known for its iconic ending doorway

shot. Ethan is framed alone outside while the

family gathers inside. It visually reinforces

the theme that Ethan is an outsider who doesn't

belong in domestic society. The movie is actually

adapted from a 1954 novel by Alan Lee May, which

is loosely inspired by real life. The cast and

crew that filmed this did it under extreme conditions.

Freezing mornings, scorching afternoons, and

the regular dust storms. Natalie Wood herself

faced some major challenges, and there were concerns

about her fainting during some of the desert

shoots. John Wayne was actually worried about

the character he was playing. He was darker and

more morally troubling than Wayne's usual characters.

He was worried audiences wouldn't accept him

as this obsessive figure. Ford pushed him to

lean into Ethan's hatred and eternal conflict,

which was redefining to Wayne's legacy. Although

perhaps it wasn't to begin with because when

this was first released it was not well regarded.

In fact it did not get one single Oscar nomination.

Over time, though, critics and filmmakers reassessed

it, and its reputation grew massively, including

AFI, which lists it within their top 100 greatest

movies of all time, top 100 thrillers, as well

as topping their best westerns of all time. Filmmakers

like Martin Scorsese, Spielberg, and George Lucas

cite it as a major influence. But what do Kevin

and I think? Are we aligned with the critics

that initially saw it, or more of those who have

changed their mind over time? Back to Kevin and

myself to decide. discuss all right now that

we have the facts down and you know all about

this 1956 american epic western film like we

said directed by john ford and starring john

wayne and it does list and say that this is starring

natalie wood in some places what you that you

see i don't know if you can really call that

a starring role but she's in this um so so that's

a thing but dan after this rewatch for you What

were some of your takeaways in conjunction with,

you know, having watched Stagecoach and now watching

this 10 years later than you had seen it the

first time? Yeah, it's a good question. So I

think I'll say this up front because I know we

mentioned it with Stagecoach, but I feel like

honestly going back to watching this, it's like,

wow. This movie is super racist. And I know it's

easy to look back at something from afar with

a modern lens and be like, oh, look how much

better I am than them because I can see the racism

in it. But I do think in a way it does impact

the filming because it does give you, you know,

because much of this film is based upon these

individuals getting kidnapped. They get kidnapped

by, you know, Comanches because why? Command

trees are evil. That's basically it. So I do

think it does impact the filming in some way.

The filmmaking gives, it gives you protagonists

that are basically their motivation is maybe

not, I wouldn't say non -existent. You get a

little bit and maybe you could even say it was

maybe progressive for the time. I don't know.

But beyond that, watching this though, like putting

that to a side, it is like watching like the,

the language of movies being written in a, in

a lot of ways. It's like, Oh, well there there's,

There's Star Wars right there. Oh, that's very

much, you can see where Steven Spielberg got

that. There's Martin Scorsese. Maybe even a little

Quentin Tarantino, even if he doesn't want to

admit it. So you see so much influence within.

You can understand why this movie is so well

regarded because its influences are far and wide

and still continue to this day. Just on a sheer

filmmaking standpoint, from Ford's use of the

camera, from his... From his ability to craft

a shot, it is as remarkable. I think you can

certainly see that he, in Stagecoach, it was

there, but he certainly has advanced a lot as

a filmmaker within searchers. And even, I think,

John Wayne as an actor, you know, I know, like

you said, you haven't experienced much with him.

I think even watching this a second time, I do

appreciate his performance much more. Because

he does give, you know, when you think John Wayne,

you think he plays the same role in every movie.

He kind of does. But I do think you do get elements.

You do get layers here a little bit. Maybe those

layers kind of shift rapidly for no reason. Or

we can kind of get into that. But I do feel like

Wayne does give a really... strong performance

for himself like you can see the star power you

understand why he was such a big star but i do

think there is like an element of danger like

he's not danger but damage to his character and

you see that right from the start uh and i think

you know there's a lot to appreciate with it

I do think sometimes there are elements of Forne's

filmmaking that just don't always jive with me.

Like, his humor, it just doesn't really hold

the task of time for me in a lot of ways. And

I think often, like, some of the tonal shifts

really kind of help diminish some, like, otherwise

dramatic moments. But, and then also some of

the, like, his ability to... develop melodrama

but beyond that i do think there is like a lot

to appreciate on a filmmaking standpoint uh and

i don't know if i would say this is like you

know really comparing it to stagecoach what is

it necessarily like i enjoyed more but certainly

see ford level up as a filmmaker and kind of

become like the icon you could see why this is

as well regarded as it is simply based upon the

influence alone So here's my thing. I see the

influences that you're talking about, right?

You definitely can see the Star Wars and see

the different things that you mentioned. Totally

get that. Totally understand why it's influential

and why a lot of other directors saw things and

took things out of this, et cetera, that you

can see in their work. I also think that John

Ford does a great job with the landscape. especially

how he shot the landscape and things like this

is going to be taking place a lot in Monument

Valley, just as Stagecoach did and as a few other

of his films does. And I think he does take advantage

of the scenery, the nature, the landscapes and

all of that type of stuff. I think he does a

really good job with that. And that's probably

one thing that is, even though both films that

we've watched have taken parts of it in the same

area, this one is definitely on a different level.

granted it's in color so that helps as well i

think a little bit but like there's just more

panoramic shots or more far away i'm not good

with like the technology of cinematography but

there's wide shots close -ups yeah yeah like

there's there's more there's it takes more advantage

of its backdrop than stagecoach does probably

i i would give it that i think all of that works

I also think that I have like a lot of problems

with this film and I think one of them starts

with the racism. Like I understand that it's

a Western and I do understand that at times we

forgive or are not forgive. I, that might be

the wrong word. We're understanding of when a

movie is made and what the conditions are and

what plays, how that all plays into it. but this

is 1956. Like this isn't a movie that was made

in the 1800s or like 1900 or 1910. Like we are

far room, not far removed. I mean, we're, we're

far removed from the time it's taking place.

Like this is depicting civil war, like 1860,

70 eras, but it's 1956. Like this, Like, you

know, like I'm thinking like my parents were,

let's see, my mom would have been 16. Like my

parents were between the ages of 15 and 20 something

at this point. And it's like, were we still,

did we still view Native Americans like this

in that time period? Or should we have known

better at that point than to do this? Like, it's

part of me. has never thought of it like that

because you just think old movies right so you

just picture they're all made like a million

years ago and then you're like well yeah people

used to be racist or people used to be like whatever

like like what we saw with carrie grant uh or

something in one of the hitchcock movies or carrie

grant films where like they he i think it's carrie

grant where he like hits a girl right like he

hits he hits the actress and you're like oh well

that was a different time and place but like

this that was a film that was being filmed in

like 1930s i know that's only 20 25 years difference

than what this one is but i just feel like This

is getting a little too close to time periods

where I feel like that shouldn't be taking place.

So that's hard to reconcile in my head, I guess,

a little bit. The other part of me that... And

maybe I'm just not someone that's big on melodrama.

And so maybe that's going to be something that

I struggle with throughout this series of looking

back at Western films. But there it... And this

is not counting John Wayne. I think John Wayne's

very good. But there is so much overacting that

takes place in this film. And it's hard for me

to... Maybe it's just not the style for me. Martin

Pauly's character, played by Geoffrey Hunter,

I felt like was absolutely awful. He gets mad

and just chucks his hat at John Wayne and then

acts like he's going to charge at him but takes

one step and then throws himself against a rock

in this big melodramatic... That's not for me,

I guess. That's not the style of acting that

I'm drawn to. And it's not everybody in the film.

It's just certain people that I'm like... It

makes it stand out more. John Wayne's not doing

that. A lot of the other characters aren't necessarily

doing that. I'm going to have to reference some

of the cast list. Ward Bond, who plays the Reverend

or Captain Samuel Johnson Clayton, I don't feel

like he's doing that. I don't feel like the Mose

guy, even though he's kind of playing a crazy

character, he's not doing that. So a few of these

other guys, when they're doing this melodramatic

acting, it just really stands out as... not fitting

with the rest of what i'm watching and i don't

know maybe that's just a stylistic thing that

i'm thrown off by but i go ahead i think for

for specifically jeffy hunter's character like

you're right i think that's he john wayne isn't

acting that way but i think that's kind of the

point in the way like you have the John Wayne,

the stoic, you know, unchangeable veteran that

has seen the world. And this Jeffrey Hunter that

is, you know, this kind of young buck that's

still more of a wild card in a way. Like, still

trying to, you know, he flies off the handle

a little bit more. He doesn't have the same control

of his emotions as compared to a lot of other

individuals. I don't disagree. Like, they're,

you know, it's stage acting. You know, it's acting

for the back, you know, the back row. And it's

certainly a style. I guess having this not being

my first time seeing a John Wayne movie, I think

it's very much of that time. But if it's something

you don't have a lot of experience with, because

my wife says the same thing. It's like, why are

they acting? It's so big. So many characters

are so big. So I could understand where that

style. Do you think, you've seen more westerns

for me, do you think it's more of a genre specific

thing? Because what I'm noticing right now, I

feel like I've watched 50 films from the 1930s

to the 1950s in the last year, and I didn't notice

this type of acting in any of those. But I've

noticed it now twice. I think it's a style you

see a lot in John Ford films, like even The Grapes

of Wrath. I don't know if you, have you seen

the grapes of wrath? No, I have not. Okay. Like

even like that has elements of melodrama. Uh,

I think dramas of this, like, I don't think it's

all Westerns. Like when we get into spaghetti

Westerns, for example, uh, those are almost like

a reaction to this, where characters are far

more rugged and, uh, more subdued. And it's obviously

they, they happen later. Um, I think even, It's

been a while. The movie we'll talk about next

week, from what I remember, because, you know,

we have, well, I guess we can just talk, we'll

be talking about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

next week. From what I remember, that has Jimmy

Stewart and John Wayne's in that as well. It's

been like 10 years since I saw that. I don't

remember that as much within that, but I could

be wrong. So I think it's a combination of, I

don't think it's indicative with all the Westerns,

certainly some of them, especially John Ford.

But others, like thinking of something like Shane

or High Noon, those weren't as much. Again, it's

been a bit since I've seen them. Go ahead. Keep

going. I think especially compared to like, you

know, we did the Cary Grant and the Hitchcock

movies, which were much more in thriller. But

like drama of this time, it's not super uncommon

because a lot of these people are coming from

the stage. that type of performance was, that's

where they learned in those, those are those,

those big characteristics. Like, especially think

of like, these are, these Westerns are spinoffs

of like those wild West shows back in the day.

Yeah. So, so I think some of that is still ingrained

within this, which could be why some of that

is still existent. And it could also just be

some of the actors, because it's not like, you

know, we have John Wayne here and there's some

other, you know, you know obviously mentioned

mentioned natalie wood but something like jeffrey

hunter is a name that is goes on to become an

oscar -winning performer you know so i think

it's also so maybe the the talent involved as

well he also goes on to play uh for that since

we're a geek uh cast radio network i feel like

we should you know touch on geek things he also

plays captain pike in the original pilot for

the original star trek series which is kind of

interesting Yeah. I'm going to have to rattle

off a few things that I have issues with, Dan,

and maybe you can talk me off the ledge with

some of them, because there was just quite a

few things that I was thrown off by, I guess,

in different ways. Some are more nitpicky, and

some are, I guess, more serious hesitations that

I have. But I'm interested to get your take and

see what you think about a couple things. I felt

like both of our main I don't know if you call

them main. Two of our main female characters,

I felt were written very inconsistently in this

film. So first off, we have Laurie Jorgensen,

who is the character that Jeffrey Hunter's Martin

Pauly is kind of attached to until he goes off

on this journey. And then we have another gentleman

who's trying to court her as well. And I felt

like the first... third or the first act of this

film maybe even the first half that's her up

as a very strong female character that has agency

who can stand on her own and who kind of can

she's not just like the background character

she's not like the damsel in distress she's like

i feel like she's got more independence with

her and then it seems like in the second half

of this movie she becomes somebody and i don't

know if we're just supposed to like buy that

the character changes due to like a time passage

but it seems like she becomes somebody who's

just completely complacent with this other relationship

and this other terrible wedding that they're

going with like there's two boys that are fighting

over her that are going to get into an actual

fight and i feel like the character from the

first half would have stopped that herself but

the character from the second half just like

goes running and crying for help from like somebody

stronger and older than her like i i don't know

like i felt like her character in the first half

is uh 180 from her character in the second half

and then i'll get your opinion too because i

think they do the same thing a little bit even

though we don't get as much with the debbie character

who is played by both natalie wood and natalie

wood's younger sister um at two different times

i don't have any problem with the the younger

sister's version of that we just you know see

her as a 14 year old or whatever and we don't

get a ton of time with her but the later half

of the movie when we're actually introduced to

Natalie Woods part of the Debbie character like

she goes from somebody who is being loyal to

the Comanche tribe and doesn't seem to want to

do and maybe I just misread something or missed

something when I was watching it and then like

it's like the very next scene where then she's

apparently quote unquote to use i guess the language

that they're using in the in the film like cured

of this like disease that is the comanche tribe

and what they had on her and then she's just

ready to return with her family and i don't understand

how she went from one to the other so i just

felt like there was like inconsistency with the

female characters but maybe that's just how i

kind of viewed it regarding the vera i could

i could see that i think Seeing from her perspective,

right? Like she obviously has attraction to this

Martin character. I think of much of her actions

is towards that. She's kind of waiting for him.

And then obviously she gets that letter saying

that he's married. And I don't think, you know,

obviously that's played off as for last within

what we see, but for her, you know, she's heartbroken.

And to me that her getting married was in a way

kind of indicative of her character because She's

like, all right, well, I can't wait any longer.

He didn't wait for me, so I'm not going to wait

for him. So I'm making this choice to then get

married because it's the only option I have at

that moment in time. I mean, I don't disagree

that that kind of removes the agency from her.

I think it's probably consistent with the time,

you know, considering you're talking within that

era, within this era that it's made. But I saw

it more so as her being. reacting to the fact

that you know in her mind jeffrey or not jeffrey

but the martin has kind of in a way moved on

like you know they're not seeing them for years

and i'm you know so perhaps she's just in her

heartbreak and her in disappointment doing what

she thinks she can i think in the ways that deflates

her maybe you could argue that she should be

stronger than that perhaps um but i don't think

we really have much of an understanding of who

she is beyond her connection to martin and maybe

you can that's another criticism of the movie

but i think that is kind of the justification

for like why she goes down the path she does

um but again like you're right it's all her actions

simply are to fuel the actions of martin in the

second half regarding um regarding debbie the

way i like when i the way i took it when they

first came up it wasn't that she wouldn't didn't

want to leave it's more so I saw it as she was

just scared for the safety, their safety, and

was more concerned with if she left with them,

then that would, you know, they wouldn't let

her leave. And if they were to let her leave,

then if she were to leave with them, it would

cause issues. So in her mind, the best way to

say that is like, oh, she was trying to save

them because... She saw herself as lost already

because she was trapped within this. If she were

to escape, they would then chase after her and

then surely would mean the death of them and

perhaps herself as well. So I didn't necessarily...

I took it more so that she was... She was...

Perhaps that's giving me the film more... credit

but that's that's kind of how i took it when

she saw exactly who they were and understood

who they were at first maybe it took a little

bit time for her to realize that but i that's

especially when she comes running after them

and telling them to kind of go away i felt her

actions were more so to for their safety rather

than her own rather than her like you know wanting

to stay with them and i do apologize i guess

i should have put a spoiler alert somewhere in

there but this is uh i don't know how old is

this movie now I mean, well, I went through the

plot and the just the facts. Yeah. Okay. I was

just going to say, this is a 70 -year -old movie,

so I apologize. The other thing, I'm interested

to get your take because you've seen it before,

so I feel like knowing that you had seen it before,

you can watch it with different eyes than I could

because you kind of know some of the steps that

you're going to go to, like you know the A to

B to C type stuff, so I think that informs your

watch a little bit, and I didn't have that. I

guess, advantage. I am wondering, like, I think

one reason why I struggled with this film was

because it felt like to me that the first, what's

called the first half of this film, that we were

almost watching this in real time. We have a

situation where obviously they go off, this family

gets, you know, Some people get kidnapped. And

then we have John Wayne and Martin Pauly. I guess

I'm going to keep calling John Wayne by his actor's

name and Martin Pauly by the character's name,

but whatever. So we have these two guys who are

going off in search. That's where we get the

name of the film, right? They're searching for

hopefully the two survivors of who was kidnapped.

And it felt like to me for the first half that

we were following them in real time. And that

they were doing different things. And it almost

also felt like the director or whoever was in

charge made all of the decisions and told all

of the actors that it was like real time and

everything. And then all of a sudden at one point

decided to like switch it up on everybody or

finally inform everybody that this is not real

time. We've actually jumped six years into the

future. And like, I understand that they're supposed

to be searching for a long time. but it was very

unclear to me that we had done that until they

felt like they, and I feel like they even recognize

that because then they decide to put in two different

lines that say she's gone from 14 to 19 and that

five years has passed. And I felt like that could

have been more evident through the storytelling

and the filmmaking before that, because it threw

a lot of things off for me. I think it gives

you all, it doesn't say true there's a lot within

the dialogue that kind of give you an idea of

like how long it's been because you know even

in the filmmaking as you see the changing of

the seasons you know from one day to the next

there's then the letters regarding you know there's

the time when he gets a letter it's like oh two

letters in one year or like the indication that

we won't be back again for christmas this year

i think within that but there was another whole

thing sorry i don't i'm sorry for interrupting

there was another whole thing though like they

do that they have that line where he's saying

I won't be back for another year and it seems

like they're talking about multiple letters but

then when he sees her later in the film she says

that he only sent him one letter yeah there's

a specific line where she said he's like well

I wrote you a letter and she's like one the entire

time but I'm like wait a second we were talking

about like we weren't I'm almost another year

that you're not going to see me that's clearly

alludes to the fact that there's been multiple

letters but then you say there's only one letter

Well, I don't know if they only sent a letter

to her. I think it was more so that... I don't

think him saying that they won't see you at Christmas

again meant that they sent a letter last Christmas.

I think it's more so like... I don't... The amount

of letters, I'm not really sure. No, I'm just

saying there was multiple things that were throwing

me off because I understood the season's past,

so I'm thinking we're into the next year. But

then all of a sudden it was like, Oh, we're actually

six years into the future. And like, it made

some different things for me, like not add up.

So I was like, I need to rewatch it knowing that

that is happening because I felt like they didn't

do a good job in the first part of that, of showcasing

the passage of time outside of, we did see it

go to winter and then back. But that doesn't

tell me that it's six years. That tells me that

it's like potentially one year. And I don't know,

like it threw me off in like how I was interpreting

things and how I was viewing things in the middle

part. And I was a little bit confused. And then

all of a sudden I'm like, how far in the future

are they? Because the other thing that we're

not seeing is even though they've gone through

different seasons, I didn't necessarily see it

on either of the main two characters that we're

following either that they've aged or like we

have five or six years of them traipsing through

the Wild West. and I don't get that in like how

they're depicted either like from a visual standpoint

it's not like and I get that they they can shave

and they can do different stuff like out in the

wilderness as well but like I didn't see that

on them as much either that they're they've been

out there like five or six years is a long time

for anybody right like I'm much different than

I was five or six years ago and I didn't see

that in John Wayne and Martin Polly's how they

were depicted So that also threw me off. Cause

that's why I was still thinking we're somewhat

in real time or we've only like moved a year

or so when in fact we've moved like six years.

So I was kind of thrown off by that. I feel like

you do. I feel like, I think even like with Martin,

like he just seems older and wiser. And even

with John Wayne, they put, he's got gray or more

gray in his hair. You know, he's even in his

clothes are kind of a darker complexion. You

know, does it look like, you know, Is he drastically

changes or something like that? No, but I do

think there are touches there that do show you

the passage of time. It's not, you know, super

drastic per se, but I think that's also kind

of part of it too, is just that it is this, it

is this long period of time, but it also kind

of, they get lost in it as much as anything with

like how long it goes by. Cause it's five years,

but it goes by, you know, it's lost on them so

it's not it's not something where they kind of

they feel it but it's a different type of feeling

where it's like they're just events in their

life almost slow down it's all been about this

one thing so I do think I do think the first

time I watched it I think I wasn't I don't think

I, I think I had a similar experience, but after

seeing it, I do think there is a lot there. I

think within, like I said, a lot of the conversation

pieces, a lot, uh, the way the landscape is shown,

like the correspondence there are, there's, um,

even within like the, you know, we, we come back,

there's a lot of story that happens off screen,

you know, like when you're talking about Lori,

You know, in her, you know, she has, I can't

think of the other, is it Charlie? Charlie McQuarrie.

Yeah, yeah. We see, you know, one scene he's

serenading her, and then we come back and they

have a relationship. So it does at times, like,

you know, Ford just pushes you to try to connect

some dots, you know, in considering, you know,

a lot of stuff he is. it does seem counterintuitive

because a lot of stuff tends to be a little heavy

handed and here and there it's more open, open,

open ended. But I do think they're like being

able to understand just the impact of it. I felt,

I felt it like, I think throughout, especially

maybe it was a second time being able to pick

up on things. Cause I understand, you know, I

knew where the plot was going, so I wasn't as,

I could, you know, pay attention to those other

small pieces, but I do believe it's there. But

like I said, it's not super drastic in the way,

on a visual standpoint, in how it impacts the

characters. Speaking of that Charlie guy, was

he the creepiest? This dude's sitting as Laurie

is getting read this letter and all the stuff

that she's not wanting to hear, and he's just

over there with a smile, enjoying the fact that

her love interest is... the hopes and dreams

of that are fading and he's just like smiling

and waiting for his chance to serenade it like

that dude was creepy I'm sorry and it's on the

second actor we have Ken Curtis because he was

also a voice in Robin Hood so I'm guessing we're

going to come across a lot of people that were

voices in Robin Hood for some reason yeah he

also was in like 300 plus episodes of Gunsmoke

so he was one of the main cast and yeah I'm not

I'm not surprised some of these actors. I'm sure

they all have at some point, whether it be Gunsmoke

or the other big one. But yeah, that's interesting.

The other thing that another part that kind of

threw me off is because I was viewing this like

almost as real time. And because I thought there

was like, I thought we were going back and getting

multiple letters for the on the first. you until

i figured until she says like you only sent me

one letter i thought there was like multiple

letters being sent at different times because

of how i was reading that and i was very confused

how john wayne had like somehow become like a

vip with the pony express like I was confused

as to how this was being pulled off. I was like,

is the Pony Express just out there finding John

Wayne and Martin Pauly and just delivering these

letters whenever they have written one? Because

in my experience, that's not how the Pony Express

worked. Getting a letter back to your family

when you're out in the middle of the wilderness

was not super easy. But that's not a serious

problem. I was just like, how is this working?

How is this correspondence happening? I don't

know if there is this indication of just like

that their story becomes famous because they're,

you know, they become known for their search.

You know, if it's just an indication of how well

they become. I was like, are we missing them

stopping at like at major cities at different

points during this journey that they just don't

show us that's off screen that they're like,

hey, send this back to this letter back to my

family. I was I was very confused at that part.

Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I was. What was your

take on John Wayne's interactions? I should learn

the guy's name. It's Ethan. Ethan Edwards, yeah.

Yeah, Ethan Edwards. What was your take on Ethan

Edwards' interactions with Debbie in the last

act? It seems like at one point he's ready to

shoot her, and she's been contaminated by the

plague of being with Indians and Native Americans,

and he's going to shoot her on sight, and they

make reference to that a couple times, and then

he gets his chance and just like... grabs her

and brings her back home like did he have a change

of heart or was he waiting to see if she was

truly i hate even using that word contaminated

or not or like what was your take on kind of

their interactions between the two of them yeah

that's a good question because i don't know it's

that like if you were to like kind of look at

one of my bigger issues with it it's within that

change right because it's pretty drastic he goes

from wanting to kill her to like you know what

fine i won't do it uh and it's i i wondered if

it was just more of a realization of like one

of the it's like you know that old saying like

a dog chases a car it doesn't expect doesn't

know what it'll do when it actually catches it

and it was one of those situations where he he

thought he could do it but when he was faced

with the actual choice ultimately he still saw

who he saw was his niece and that you know kind

of showed in the light a bit i don't know i i

took it more so as Based upon the way the movie

was, I saw it more so as him seeing her and seeing

the Debbie he once knew, and that's why he decided

not to go through with it. Not that he necessarily

had a change of heart regarding the way he sees

the Cherokee or anything like that. That's the

way I took it. So have you heard the theory out

there that, I read this after the fact, but there's

apparently a, I don't know if it's a fan theory

or a critic theory or who came up with this theory

or whatever, but there is a theory theory out

there that Debbie is actually Ethan's daughter.

That there is a snippet early on where there's

a line that is between Ethan and his sister -in

-law that says something about the fact that

she was eight years old, Debbie was, and that

ethan's character had been away on an eight -year

trip or something of that nature and that there's

this moment at the door where ethan's character

is walking out and he has kind of a an awkward

moment or pause or interaction with his sister

-in -law that seems like there could be something

more to it and that he's actually searching for

this long because it's his daughter and that's

why he's willing to take her back what do you

think interesting i never never got that i could

see where that's like i could see the pieces

they're going for but i never took that because

i also feel like he doesn't seem like the guy

who would do that to like his brother you know

he didn't seem like it would be someone who would

betray the trust of his brother in that way so

i mean i mean not that he was a great person

but right um you know confederate soldier that

Clearly was very racist. But I don't know. I

never saw that. To me, it was his family. It

was the only family he had. Maybe really the

only thing he had. So I never saw it as his daughter,

personally. I didn't pick up on that either.

I did pick up on that sequence between him and

the sister -in -law. It seemed like it was weird

at that doorway when he was leaving. But outside

of that, I would have never picked up on that.

Also curious, you have seen, I think, more Westerns

from this time period, or maybe you know more

about this time period in American history. Were

we commonly referring to the Comanche as the

Comanche back here as some sort of slang, or

did they just not know how to pronounce the name

for this entire movie? I don't know. I need someone

to educate me on that. I kept saying Comanche

and I'm like, have I been saying the name wrong

my entire life? I thought it was Comanche and

then I looked up and I was like, no, the correct

pronunciation is Comanche, but maybe it was like

a slang to say Comanche. I think he was saying

it more as like a derogatory term. That's what

I figured. It must have been something like that.

Also interesting that Ward Bond, who plays, like

I said, he's the reverend plus the captain or

whatever. They're in 24 films together, John

Wayne and Ward Bond, which I thought that's a

lot of films. You see those different matchups

of actors like Ben Affleck and Matt Damon or

whatever that have appeared in eight films or

something like that together. These guys were

in 24 films together, which is kind of crazy.

Ward Bond was also someone that we saw in Bringing

Up Baby, if you remember back then. So he appeared

there. Vera Miles was Lila Crane in Psycho. So

we've seen a few people show up from films that

we had already seen. Does John Wayne say that'll

be the day in all of his films, or is this the

one that mostly uses it? I don't know, honestly.

I felt like every time they weren't sure what

he should say, they just were like, hey, say

that'll be the day. It might not even make sense,

but say it. I mean, I feel like probably at this

point, it's like whatever he wanted to say, they

just had him go with it. John Wayne, be John

Wayne. All right, I got you. I also did not realize

that his son was in this film at all. I did not

either. Who was his son? His son plays Lieutenant

Greenhill, the Union soldier that comes in at

the end. Oh, okay. And is talking to him, and

they have a little interaction with each other.

So I thought that was interesting. A couple other

just trivia bits. there's a scene where there's

a bunch of guys dancing at a wedding and John

Wayne comes in and like offers everybody a drink

or, or says, let's have a drink or whatever.

And I guess there's a sequence there where there's

three different people that are standing behind

John Wayne that have all played his double in

this film for different sequences, like stuntmen.

So it's like John, John Wayne and three people

that play John Wayne are all in the same scene

at one point. So that was interesting. And last

bit of trivia for John Wayne. Apparently, this

is one of his favorite roles. He felt it's often

this one and I think two others that he kind

of elevates. But he liked this one so much that

apparently he named his son after this character.

His son's name is Ethan. Or one of his sons.

I don't know how many sons he had, but he named

one of his sons Ethan after this film is what

I read on IMDb. So if they're lying, I apologize.

My last bit here. as a director if you have a

sequence when there's a dead body under a rock

and you lift the rock and the dead body immediately

takes the biggest breath you've ever seen as

a director don't you like say cut and retake

that shot it was a heavy boulder so i guess that

that's what i i thought i was crazy at first

i'm like he did he like he took a breath that

was a huge breath yeah That was like a Clint

Eastwood type of thing where he's like, nope,

we got it. Keep moving. I feel like that's an

easy one. It wasn't like it was a long shot,

right? It wasn't a long take. It was like they

lifted it and they show him for, I don't know,

maybe five seconds at the longest. I'm like,

you couldn't retake that and have him hold his

breath for five seconds. Come on now. Also, the

bad part is that that was right in the beginning

of the film and it totally took me out of the

movie for a minute. I'm like, oh, John Ford doesn't

care. he does not care. Um, not that he doesn't

care. I'm sure he did, but it was just a minor

thing that I was like, Oh, this is what we're

getting ourselves into. So Dan, this is a, we

talked last week that this is like AFI's vote

for number one Western of all time. It's got

an 87 % on rotten tomatoes, which those two things

don't seem to jive. Like if it's the number one

Western, you would think it would be higher on

rotten tomatoes, but it's pretty high score either

way. 9 .1 on Metacritic. It was also named the

best Western ever by entertainment weekly for

whatever that's worth. It's got a lot of praise.

Do you feel like it's in the running here when

we do this whole series of Western films? Is

it going to be in the running for the best film

we see this whole time? I will say, with this

being my second watch, before this, if you were

asking me to rank my favorite Westerns, it wasn't

going to be there. I still don't think it will.

Like, like I, like I said, I think there is certainly

elements of this to appreciate. Like there's

the influences. Certainly I get where like the

acclaim comes from. But personally, like I do

think some of the issues that we brought up kind

of for me, hold it back from being in that echelon

of what I think are the best Westerns personally.

I mean, we'll be plenty to get to within this.

Like, I think I even maybe even like, like as

a, uh complete film i think even stagecoach i

think was i might even like that a little bit

more than this i don't know it's hard to say

but um i don't think for me i i don't necessarily

have an issue with it being there it's not like

i see it as egregious but uh on my personal list

i don't think it's going to rank at the top and

i know we typically like when we're doing these

retrospectives we somewhat hold back like how

we rank things or how we stack things against

each other but i think since we're doing this

one kind of in sections It makes sense to kind

of have those conversations. I'm with you. I

would take stagecoach over this one. I do appreciate

some of the, like, I know you said like John

Ford had leveled up a little bit, or you can

tell like, you know, 17 years later he's, he's

found some more things. And I do think it's probably

the better shot film. And like, we do get some

great landscapes and we do have the influential

aspects of how you can see other films drawing

from this. I think all of those things are true,

but I agree with you. Like if I'm taking it as

just, It's an individual movie and the story

from beginning to end and the whole package.

I think I prefer Stagecoach. I think the humor

here doesn't flow as well. There's the climactic

scene and you have the Reverend dealing with

stuff with his butt for some reason. I don't

know. I forgot. Dan, sorry. Was it a thing during

this period that we just like... shoot immediately

without ever trying to aim whatsoever because

oh that's that's that's that's that's something

you're gonna have to use too because that's that's

a western staple yeah it's like point shoot point

shoot point shoot i'm like y 'all didn't take

like even a half a second to line that up yeah

that is we did have some stormtroopers uh situations

going too like uh there was that one point where

martin polly and ethan edwards were on point

like they were 100 accuracy like when they were

hiding behind that well ethan edwards wasn't

even hiding behind a rock he's literally standing

completely out in the open like yeah he is behind

a rock but he's standing up and not using the

rock for protection at all whereas martin paulie

is and they're just like taking people out every

single shot meanwhile the uh the other side is

is shooting blue and blue and red lasers that

aren't hitting anything so it was uh it was fun

but i was like man These guys are not even trying

to aim. I love it. I also thought it was kind

of ridiculous, where it's like, you have this,

you know, they're building up the Comanche, there'd

be this evil force, but water, a river, it's

like, oh no, they don't, they're allergic, they

can't get through the river, like, it's just

like, oh, come on. They're like the characters

from Lord of the Rings, you know, like, oh no,

I don't know. Right, cannot pass. But, yeah,

so, I will say, like, Regarding that, there were

some times where maybe it was trying to show

that not all Indians or Native Americans were

bad, because you obviously had the fact that

he marries his wife, and it starts as this comedic

element, but then you see that he tragically

gets killed, and you have Scar, and he mentions

that he has two sons that were killed, but then

he took a lot more. Again, I still think this

is still a heavily racist movie, but there are

at least some things where maybe they're like,

hey, let's add a little bit of dimension, but

it doesn't outweigh the other piece. Again, that's

part of what I have issues with, but even if

I were to take that away, some of the things

that I mentioned also just didn't really flow

well with me. The other interesting thing is

they got all legit native americans to play all

of the native american parts except for scar

oh my and it's so not even close like not even

play all of these other guys can be you but the

main indian no i'm sorry that needs to be a dude

named and named henry like yeah like that guy's

from new jersey it's like that guy's from jersey

you know like he has like a jersey like thick

jersey accent like it's uh it was also weird

there was a there was an accent that that charlie

guy was using That was clearly not, he was not

speaking with his own like voice or his own accent.

And I read like later on, I saw, and I think

it was, this was also maybe an IMDb trivia that

like John Ford heard this guy use an accent somewhere

along the line. It was like, oh, I love that

you have to use it. And so he made him use it,

even though the guy was like, no, like that was.

wasn't being serious with that like don't make

me do that and he's like no you have to use that

in the film and i was hearing him and i was like

this cannot be this dude's real voice like this

yeah i i promise you that's not how he talks

it he sounds like a cartoon character so it's

not not surprised that he did voiceover so then

i was like so i was like yeah maybe that's it

like this is the friar tuck of this film we're

just we're just going with it but at least friar

truck i think I apologize for calling this guy

Firetuck because I can't remember the actor that

played the role. That was at least his normal

voice. Andy Devine, I think was his name. The

guy who played Charlie is Ken Curtis. You can

tell that this is not Ken Curtis' voice, whereas

at least with Andy Devine, that seems to be his

real voice. we're used to hearing it in the cartoon

but yeah so that was kind of interesting but

there's a lot of uh interesting trivia with this

one there's a lot of stuff i guess in this western

because there's so many western films and so

many episodes of like gun smoke and what's the

other one i'm forgetting gun smoke and the other

super long -running tv series of the of that

time there's two westerns that like i'll both

had hundreds of episodes, but when you get those

types of things, there's a lot of crossover where

people performed with each other. Even when we

go to the next movie, we're going to see a number

of people that we've already seen. Bonanza? Is

that what you're thinking? Bonanza. That had

14 seasons. I thought it was Bonanza. Bonanza

and Gunsmoke seemed like they were on forever.

Yeah, Bonanza had 14 seasons. Monaco Junction

was another one that came to mind, but I don't

know how long that was on for. But Bonanza, that

was Western, right? Bonanza was? Yeah, yeah.

14 seasons started in 1959, so it's around this

time. Yeah, and so between this and Gunsmoke,

I think there's a lot of crossover between the

films and the TV series, so I think we're going

to get to see a lot of that. I can't remember

all the different actors that we've already seen

in the last two films we've done that are also

going to appear in this next one we cover, so

it's going to be interesting to kind of see how

that progresses as well. Any final thoughts here

on The Searchers, Dan? No, I'm so glad I watched

it again, because like I said, I think I didn't

even, I did enjoy it more the second time, but

I'm now really interested to see how this goes.

I'm curious to see how, if maybe the man who

shot Liberty Valance, like your... If that can

sway you at all when it comes to... I do think

I would appreciate this one on a second watch

more than I did on the first one because I was

just really thrown off by what I thought I was

watching and then to find out that I was super

wrong because apparently I'm not very observant

of what's going on in the film or maybe I was

just trying to take too much in in the wrong.

So it colored some things wrong for me. It is

interesting because some things are so heavy

handed and then other things aren't. So I could

understand where you're just waiting for it to

be directly stated when it's not. Which I think

happened to me from the first time I watched

it when I was like, oh, I didn't realize it was

as long as it was. When I was questioning in

my head, I'm like, well, I'm losing track of

time and I don't know how much time has passed.

And I was looking for clues, but it felt like

it just took a while to get there for me before

I'm like, how much older is this? girl at this

point and it changed like how that middle section

would have read to me probably so i think on

the second watch i would be less thrown off by

that and more able to like see the i guess the

epic quote -unquote part of this that is these

people are searching for so long uh for this

like they've they've dedicated a chunk of their

life to this and kind of everything that goes

into it and i would probably be able to pick

up more on their aging agent's the wrong word,

but their progression over the five years and

kind of see how that is unfolding where I was

just, I wasn't seeing it in the beginning because

I was just thrown off by, I wasn't sure what

the timeframe was. Understandable. Yeah. Um,

John Wayne's like, yeah, I can, it can change,

but I'm not going to age that much. Like, you

know, I am John Wayne. So that'll be the day.

Yeah. There's, I read a trivia and I don't know

if this is right or not, that the, uh, Gosh,

who's the guy that does the, that'll be the day

that I die. Or that'll be the song. That'll be

the day that they get that from John Wayne. Oh,

I have no idea. I don't know if it's the Everly

brothers or whoever it is. Like I'm probably,

that's probably completely wrong, but there's

a, you know, a song I'm talking about though.

Buddy Holly? That'll be the day? Buddy Holly,

yes. Apparently there was some trivia bit and

I wasn't able to confirm that that's real or

not, that he saw this film and loved how he was

saying that'll be the day and made that into

his song. I don't know. Maybe true, maybe not.

He definitely liked that line. I think they said

it seven times in this film. So we're going to

jump a little bit, not 17 years into the future,

but we're going to go, what, about six years

into the future or so, I think is about six or

seven years for the man who shot Liberty Valance.

Yeah, 1962. Yeah, so six years into the future.

Dan, what is your experience with that one? This

is one I've seen before. I think around the same

time, so it's still been about 10 years or so.

Weirdly, I watched this because I can't think

of the guy's name, but it was a guy who was in

the show Arliss. He had this HBO special, and

he brought up the man who shot Liberty Valance.

And there's the line within this, which they'll

bring up, is like, when the legend becomes fact,

print the legend. And he kind of based his whole

special. It was like this weird, he did it in

front of a college. But it was all about media

history and stuff like that and how media impacts

history. So he kind of used this as a framework

for it. So based upon that, I saw it. So I remember

liking it. But like I said, it's been over a

decade. So I don't remember much about it beyond

just the overall story bit. And I know the ending,

which is a bit of a, I don't want to waste it,

ruin it for you. I'd be interested to see, because

I think it is, you know, I don't want to say

a reactionary revisionist Western, as some people

argue, like one of the first or like one of the

few that Ford has done. So I'd be interested

to see how, like, your viewpoint of this compares

to, like, the searchers in a way. Okay. And we're

going to see, like I said, we're going to see

John Wayne. We're going to see Vera Miles return.

We're going to see Andy Devine again. So I'm

glad we get to hear him again. And John Carradine

from Stagecoach is also in this one. So we get

two people from Stagecoach and one person from

Searchers, unless I'm missing somebody, and then

obviously John Wayne again. So the band is being

brought back together for this one, it looks

like. And then we add in a little Jimmy Stewart

and Lee Marvin. So I'm intrigued. Let's do it.

Let's see what this holds. Dan, if people want

to leave comments for you or follow you on any

of the social medias, how do they do that? The

instant messengers back in the day? Trying to

go back in time like these movies. It was so

much simpler back then, right? Put an away message

up and that's all you needed. Yeah, just search

Comic Concierge on most social media platforms.

And you can search me out at Optimus Solo or

you can search out my full name, Kevin Thompson,

on Letterboxd if you want to interact with some

of the reviews and things we do on there. You

can search out the show name. Just search anything

Cinema Geeks or Cinema Geek Cast. Or you can

go to geekcastradio .com and see all of the geeky

stuff that is produced over at that website.

So that does it for this episode. Tune in next

time for another chance to listen to more of

The Cinema Geeks.