Western Retrospective – Shane Review

Hi, this is Jim Meskimen, voice of the Blue Genie,

and what geeks are you listening to? I'll tell

you. You're listening to The Cinema Geeks. Always

know what geeks you're listening to. It's very

important. Hello, and welcome to episode 257

of The Cinema Geeks. I am one of your Cinema

Geeks optimists, Solo, and joining me as usual

is the Comic Concierge. Hello, Dan. Hey, how's

it going? It is going, going well. It's storming

here, so hopefully none of that comes across

in the record. It's been very stormy all day

for sure, but that's fine because it finally

got us away from like some record heat that we

were experiencing recently. So I'm all for that

if it makes it, if it like puts us into Florida's

version of the fall, I guess. i don't know which

is really just hurricane season so whatever fingers

crossed but yeah that's what's going on with

me and i i believe all your kiddos are in school

now right yeah yeah we're fully back in school

it's kind of crazy summer kind of flew by this

year doing the back to school night all that

fun stuff my oldest is now middle school and

that hurts me dearly in a lot of different ways

so it's uh it's crazy so that's been you know

I thought it was bad that my daughter wasn't

going into first grade, but middle school I can't

even fathom. It's crazy. In the blink of an eye.

Growing up, I didn't have middle school. I did,

but technically didn't because we had elementary

school, which was K -6 grade, and then we went

into junior high, high school. So 7th grade to

12th grade was all in the same school. And realizing

as an adult, like, that's a bad idea. Because,

like, yeah, most classes were separated, but

not all. Like, we had gym class together. And

I'm thinking, like, why would they put seventh

graders and, like, 18 -year -olds? Like, that's

crazy talk. But it was a very small school. I

think every school does it, like, it seems like

it does it a little bit different. I also went

to a super small school. And we only had two

buildings, two school buildings in the town.

and one of them was k through eight and then

the other one was high school and the difference

in the k through eight building was i mean it

was multiple stories like yeah i think you i

think there was at least enough stairs to go

up like four levels three or four levels and

there was one part of the school that was the

what we called our junior high which was sixth

seventh and eighth grade Okay. So sixth, seventh,

and eighth grade had like a different level or

a different section of the school. And then the

K through five was all kind of on the lower levels.

So they kept us separated fairly well. And then

it was in sixth grade was when you started changing

classes for every period. So sixth, seventh,

and eighth grade, you had like a different teacher

for every subject and all that kind of stuff.

Whereas, you know, K through five, you didn't

have that. A little bit with fourth and fifth,

I think we changed for like math and maybe English.

But other than that, I guess. you just basically

just had your your own classrooms then we had

to travel uh two blocks down the road to go to

the high school which was one block from my house

and that just kind of tells you how small this

town was so there you go there was no uh there

was no need for a bus for me like i could i could

either walk a block but i either had to walk

a block to high school or i had to walk like

maybe six blocks to k through eight so interesting

i don't think they would make me walk in kindergarten

but ours was just a lot of small towns together

because like i couldn't walk to my schools because

it was too far my elementary school like one

time for uh we rode our bikes the last day of

school because this will bring it back to movies

because the last day of school was on a wednesday

and on the way back like it was like the town

and the town is like the it was the place that

had a grocery store and a movie store because

that was basically all that existed but on wednesdays

you got like half it's like two dollar rentals

or something like that oh so it's like the first

day of summer we're gonna do like we we're gonna

have a sleepover my one friend so we're like

all the neighborhood so it's gonna be like four

or five kids and we're gonna do a sleepover and

like so he went to rent a bunch of movies and

like video games and stuff like that and we did

our bikes to do that and uh yeah i think it was

one of the things lost yeah lost element of life

like i remember doing that so much And then I

brought nothing back on time and had these really

bad fees, and my parents got really mad at me.

So that, yeah. That was the catch. That was definitely

the catch. But then the police went out of business,

so we didn't have to pay. Oh, well, there you

go. You got out of it. There you go. I remember

the thing was always going to rent something

on a Friday or a Saturday night when you were

about to have the sleepover, right? And for us,

if you were doing a game. The object was to beat

that game and that like one to two days before

you had to return it. So I was, uh, yeah, we,

we had a video rental place too. It wasn't blockbuster,

but it was, uh, it was a video store of some

sort. And, uh, yeah, I was just called one called

solid state. And then we had another one that

was called McDonald's video, but, and it wasn't

had nothing to do with it. It's this kid. It

really confused me. Cause I'm like, wait, how

does McDonald's has a video store and it's, but

it was just the last name of the people that

owned it. I don't know the story behind why ours

was called what it was, but ours was called WHO,

like W -H -O, WHO Video. That was the name of

the video rental place. Don't ask me any questions.

I don't know. All right. But yeah, speaking of

movies. Yeah. We're here to talk about some more

of our Western retrospective. So we've been bouncing

back and forth between talking about planets

of apes and talking about... The Wild West. So

today it's back to The Wild West. And this is

the last in our, we're going to rename it the

Dimitri Tiomkin block, but this film wouldn't

work for that. So it's our second classic block

here. We've talked about Red River and High Noon

and Rio Bravo. And today we are going to talk

about the 1953 film, Shane. So just remind everybody,

Dan, what was your experience with Shane going

into this one? So I have seen this before, but

it's been like 15 years, so I didn't really remember.

I got a good idea of what the general plot is

because it's pretty straightforward, but I didn't

remember much of the details, so it's been a

while. Okay, and it was a blind spot for me,

as have most of the Western retrospective films

been. So before we get into our thoughts after

we watch the film, let's let Dan lay the groundwork

and spit some facts. Did kids ever say that?

I don't know. Here's just the facts about Shane.

Personally, I don't get what the big deal is.

I love soda pop because this week we continue

our Western retrospective with a look at Shane

from 1953. directed by George Stevens. The story

takes place in the Wyoming territory in the late

19th century. Shane is this mysterious gunslinger

trying to leave his violent past behind. He arrives

in the valley where homesteader Joe Starrett

lives with his wife and young son, Joey. Shane

takes a job working for the Starrett family and

quickly becomes very close to them, Joey especially.

Joey sees him as this hero, this person to look

up to. Shane hopes to live peacefully, but the

valley is being torn apart by a conflict between

the homesteaders and a wealthy cattle rancher,

Rufus Riker. You should have known something

when his name was Rufus. Riker wants the homesteaders

off the land because their small farms interfere

with his cattle operation. He employs imitation

and violent tactics, using a ruthless gunfighter,

Jack Wilson, to terrorize the settlers. Wilson

even eventually kills the homesteader. named

Stonewall Tori, escalating the conflict even

further. At the funeral, the settlers discuss

abandoning their struggle and leaving the valley

altogether, but after witnessing one of their

own homes being destroyed by fire due to Riker's

men, they find a new resolve and continue the

fight. Riker concludes, Sterret is primarily

the one responsible for keeping their resolve.

With the purpose of killing him, Riker invites

Starrett into a meeting at the saloon with the

idea of negotiating a settlement. Both, though,

know better. Shane included, and he intervenes,

getting in a fight with Starrett, and it's a

drop -em -out, drag -out fight, but Shane does

walk away the victor and rides into town instead.

Shane kills Wilson, Riker, and Riker's brother,

but is injured in the process. Shane sees Joey,

who notices that Shane is bleeding. Shane bids

farewell and rides out into the valley, ignoring

Joey's desperate cries of Shane. Shane comes

back, but Shane... does not come back. Director

George Stevenson didn't initially want Alan Ladd

as Shane. His first choice were actors Monka

Marie Cliff and William Holden, and they were

going to play the role but became unavailable,

so eventually the role went to Ladd. Perhaps

the reason he wasn't a first choice was due to

his height. Ladd is 5 '6", 5 '7", where many

of his co -stars are much taller, 6 '2", 6 '3".

In order to avoid seeing the obvious height difference,

he would often stand on risers, which proved

to be effective because Shane became such a prominent

figure within the film and within the Western

genre. Although it may seem very conventional

for today, there's many things Shane did that

were out of the ordinary for its era, especially

the sound effects. Stevens didn't want the normal

bang -bang sound effects you would get in most

westerns, so instead they recorded new sounds

that sounded more like a cannon being fired to

make it sound more visceral. Shane was well -received

when it first came out, although it wasn't universal

praise. Some did feel it was too slow and its

solemn style became a little excessive, but there

were pretty positive reviews, including that

of Bosley Cawthor from the New York Times, who

praised the film's understanding of the conflict

between the homesteaders and the cattlemen. of

that era. It also received a number of Academy

Award nominations and won one. It received an

award for Best Cinematography, which it won,

but also was nominated for Best Picture, Best

Director, Best Supporting Actor for Brandon DeWild,

and Best Supporting Actor for Jack Palance, and

also Best Adapted Screenplay. It eventually lost

Best Picture from here to eternity. The film

performed quite well at the box office as well,

earning around $9 million in the US and Canada.

But what do Kevin and I think? Back to us to

discuss. Hey, thanks for that, Dan. Those are

the facts for Shane. And now we're going to get

into our thoughts and opinions on it. A rewatch

after about 15 years for you and a first time

watch for me. So Dan, I wanted to start off.

Obviously, we can acknowledge that this is oftentimes

listed amongst. the best westerns of all time

it gets you know put in a lot of those best of

lists top 10 top 20 whatever it might be when

it when we're specifically talking about the

western genre and so i'm curious i don't have

no idea what your take is on the movie if you

like to dislike that somewhere in the middle

but as one of those westerns that has such a

massive reputation and a film that's like deeply

ingrained in the in the history of the genre

I'm curious whether you think its reputation

comes more from how well the movie works as a

story and with its characters or from what it

represents and what it helped establish for the

genre overall or a mix of both. So what was your

take on Shane? It's a good question. And I think

one thing I appreciate by the way we kind of

ended up doing this, which wasn't originally

planned, like doing some classics, going a little

ahead. doing some of the more spaghetti westerns

and going back it's like we talked a lot about

how there is this idea of how the spaghetti westerns

in that era maybe uh made the western a bit more

sophisticated maybe indicated that it we weren't

we had heroes that weren't always this black

hat white hat But then we mentioned, you know,

that wasn't always the case. There were plenty

of Westerns before the Spaghetti Westerns that

maybe were a bit more complex and didn't deserve

the simplification of, like, that was what they

are. But then we get a movie like Shane, and

I can kind of understand where that mindset comes

from, because I guess in a way this is going

to sound inflammatory, or like I'm degrading

the movie, but it's not meant to be. This is

like Baby's first Western in a lot of ways, because

it is very... basic in its approach or it's very

straightforward and also does make sense because

most of this movie is kind of being designed

to be seen through the eyes of a child so with

that it is very simply you know good guy bad

guy type of situation but even within that we

do get a little bit of nuance at times we get

you know some understanding and i do think a

lot of what this did for the western that was

unconventional has by by this time become conventional

so just in the research some of the things that

they changes that they made i do think it is

an effective story and i think it's well made

like and there's a lot of little things that

does well that i think help establish it ahead

of some other westerns like shooting on location

you feel like it feels like you're in that location

it's very much of improvement to those that are

more on backlot it feels like there is more time

and effort put within this compared to maybe

a lot of the standard westerns that we're not

even talking about but ones i've seen because

of this retrospective that are very like generic

and by the book so i think in a lot of ways compared

to some of the best of the best that we've done

so far some of the the greatest westerns that

we've done i don't think it may come off as to

their level in a lot of ways, because what does

well has been surpassed or made a bit more complex.

But I am still glad I rewatched it. I think there

is a lot to take from it. But I do think if you

went into this thinking you're seeing the top

of the genre, I don't know if you'll get that,

but I do think it's a great introductory Western,

as I mentioned, Baby's First Western, because

it is... hitting the notes of the genre rather

hard easily and it almost feels like a disney

movie in a way it feels like it like a classic

family film but maybe with a little bit edge

to it but what did you think so i i wasn't prepared

on you know we for a long time i felt like we

talked about a lot of movies that we were kind

of lockstep with uh yeah And we agreed on most

of them, even going back through like the Hitchcock

retrospective, the Cary Grant retrospective.

We varied on some of them here and there, like

to what level we liked or disliked. But we were

very much similar in a lot of those. And I felt

like that kind of carried over even into this

Western one. And then recently we've had a few

more films that we didn't agree on. And I was

very curious going into this one where it was

going to land on that spectrum. And so I'm intrigued.

by your statement and kind of your opening here,

because I think we're probably going to have

more in common with this one than not. So Shane

is a movie that I can absolutely understand respecting

more than loving. I can see the craftsmanship.

I can see the influence. I can see the great

cinematography. They did a lot with the sound

design, with the gun violence to make that feel

real and things like that. I do think they do

the tension fairly well in Shane. And I can see

why it became such an important Western based

on when it came out and the impact it has on

stuff that comes out afterwards. However, movies

ultimately for me live and die based on whether

I care about the people I'm watching. And I'm

not sure Shane ever gave me characters that I

really was so emotional invested in that I...

cared too much about what happened to him um

even joey even joey oh my god don't get me started

i think that's that's one of the problems right

and i guess i can go right to that but like everything

you said is right like that kind of disney -esque

like i'm picturing like the films that i would

have got on the couch with my mom when i was

like i don't know seven or eight and we would

get i don't know if it was movies we had rented

from the library or if it was the i'm making

stuff up the abc saturday night movie or the

disney primetime movie or whatever but you know

it would be like heidi and uh you know like baby

crockett i remember that yeah yeah all of those

types of films like this is kind of what that

reminds me it does obviously have a much more

violent edge to it so like it wouldn't have been

on the disney channel i get that but it kind

of reminds me of a little bit and and you totally

get the fact that in some ways they are trying

to tell this story through the the child's eyes

and it's supposed to be like i don't know if

it's necessarily supposed to be our way in but

i think it definitely is supposed to be touching

on like us viewing it through the inner child

that we have and like what we would have thought

had we been that child in this time frame and

obviously there's a lot of mythological or almost

like fairy tale aspects of Shane himself and

things of that nature where it does kind of pose

that question, which we've seen come up a couple

times here. But one issue that I do have is we're

funneling all of this through this particular

character in Joey. And Brandon DeWild got nominated

for a supporting actor for this role. And that

is about the most mind -boggling statement I've

ever made in my life. I don't understand what

was going on in 1953 that this was considered

one of the best supporting roles in all of film

that year. He drove me absolutely bananas. That's

part of the problem, I think, for me, is one

of the main focal points that we're funneling

all of this stuff through, I wanted to throw

off a cliff. Maybe not that dramatic. He is a

child, and I'll give him some grace. But if I

heard him yell out Shane one more time, I, I

don't know what I was going to do, but I, I had

bad thoughts. Um, so like, I, I really didn't

care for that character and like the, the way

that it was performed. I understand kind of what

they were going for, but it was like nails on

a chalkboard for me. So that was one of the things

that kind of detracted a little bit for me, at

least. Um, what was your take on joy? Cause it

is the emotional entry point. He has the innocence,

you know, the hero worship is all there, right?

Like it's supposed to be all there. but my god

was that performance irritating for me what did

you think it definitely is of the time i think

we've come to see much more natural child performances

since then where you know thinking of like random

comparison but beast of the southern wild you

know where i forget the name of that actress

but she was nominated for and i think that feels

much more natural especially you know having

a kid and like this is this kid is does not act

like a normal child but it it does it to me I

don't think it's a great performance either.

And it's tough to be like, uh, tough on a kid

acting. Yeah. But, uh, I think it was, like I

said, it is a very much like the, the, uh, Disney

ass version of like what a child actor, everything

is so big. Everything is like, um, you know,

on the precipice of being a little bit annoying.

And like, uh, so he, every time they're almost

like they like, um, never felt like a real person.

Basically. I think ultimately it's just that

you, you know what the movie was doing. It's

very transparent in what it was doing. So it

just, yes, he was a child, but I feel like at

times maybe like he should have been a little

bit. Yeah. Just a little better. So some of his

lines were just terrible too. Like even that

like ending where he's, it's like, he, he's not

so young that he doesn't understand. Like, yeah,

he's like, calling for him to come like he's

like basically saying his goodbyes and then immediately

calling for him to come back and then like I

don't know like he was just like going all over

the place I was like I get that in in like a

maybe even like a younger child that really doesn't

understand it but like how old do you is he supposed

to be in this film I mean I would say something

like that because he's not they don't have him

like hunting yet or anything like that he's acting

like a six -year -old though I would say he's

supposed to be probably like five or six, but

he probably was like nine or ten would be my

guess. I think another thing that hurts it, though,

is that even though the movie itself does have

a lot of the heightened stuff, like the mythological

stuff, but the characters don't necessarily.

A lot of the characters, yes, Shane is like this.

mythological character, I guess. Like we, we

don't, he's mystery mysterious. We don't really

know much about him. And he does like bring a

lot of that type of stuff, but like a lot of

the other characters are somewhat, I don't know.

I didn't feel like they were as over the top.

So it was almost like this kid was not only kind

of over the top himself, but then he was over

the top against a setting and the cinematography

and the rest of the movie that doesn't feel as

over the top. So it was almost like he was like

in the wrong movie. I don't know. I mean, some

of the characters are big, but like some of them

are like our main character, Alan Ladd or not.

Yeah. Alan Ladd, his, uh, plays his father. Well,

no, then Alan Ladd plays Shane. I'm sorry. Van

Heflin plays the father, Joe Starrett. Like I'd

never found him being over the top. too much

yeah i guess i don't i think joy wasn't meant

to be over the top i think it just comes off

that way now perhaps i i see i really like the

dynamic between for me what's like a strength

within this is a dynamic between joe van heflin's

character marion's starrett uh the his wife by

played by gene arthur and then alan like their

dynamic i i thought was the strength of it uh

in like how they would relate to one another

i really did like van heflin who's becoming like

the breakout star of this retrospective in a

lot of ways uh you know like 100 years after

the movies have come out but like obviously 310

to yuma's a lot you know we saw him in that i

thought he was really strong there here he plays

a very similar role again like he's the the dad

of a farm that is in trouble trying to make the

best for his town where you have the uh you know

the the bandits or whatever who you know were

trying to take advantage of him and i think he

plays that role well and with gene arthur she

maybe was not given like a lot to do in the sense

of like she's always worrying it's like that's

her role like you worry but she's also gets moments

where you can tell she's she's understanding

things quicker like i think she figured out who

shane was before joe did uh in the way like she

would act and like he she would you just a lot

of that was within the performance maybe not

as much within the script and so i do feel like

they all feel down to earth in a way and shane

is that you know is the classic like mysterious

stranger you know you clearly like influencing

movies we've done already like with the man with

no name trilogy but he's a bit softer i think

even like as a performance like alan like he's

not as harsh but i also wonder if that's you

know a feature not a bug He gets soda pop, which

I love. I don't know why they're backing him

up for getting soda. Yeah, it's so cruel. I mean,

technically, there's danger to that as well.

It's not just a number on your teeth. But so

I think that was the strength. I do agree, Joey

was a little bit much, but I think that's more

of a product of the time than it was an intention.

At least that's the way I took it. Yeah, I liked

the Van Heflin and Alan Ladd dynamic. I liked

their interplay between each other. It wasn't

huge. I mean, I understand the love triangle

of Marion, and I get that dynamic, and I'm fine

with that. I didn't care for her character or

her performance a lot. Part of it was, I don't

know. We can get into it maybe a little bit later.

I didn't like her aspect of the triangle as much.

If I'm breaking it down, I really was drawn a

little bit more to the two men in that triangle

and kind of how they were interacting. He's working

for him, but then you can kind of see Joe somewhat

also kind of seeing the same stuff that Joey

is seeing. He is somewhat taken by the... the

mystery or the mythic aspect of shane but he

also sees him as somebody that can like serve

a purpose and help him work and stuff like that

and the kind of a at one point like are they

going to be friends are they going to be just

a worker co -worker type thing is it going to

be we're battling because you you know we're

both into the same woman so like there's a lot

of different strings being pulled between those

two so i did enjoy that i like i said marion

wasn't my favorite part of that but that's kind

of I guess I, I, I don't know. Like part of it

is, you know, you mentioned like she figured

out who Shane was early on and I'm like, did

she, or was she just kind of crushing on him?

You know what I mean? Like, was it, was it just

kind of, there was like certain things she says

that I think she under, I can't think of exactly,

but I think she, she understood that like, the

way you use his gun and like certain things that

where i feel like she knows like okay this is

um i know who this person is in the sense of

like or at least she was a bit more cautious

around him at first compared to like joe who

was like you know i just thought there was too

many moments that bugged me that she's doing

right in front of joe and her son that are like

nobody else is seeing how he how she's looking

at this dude like everyone's just cool with this

yeah um but yeah i did find that a little bit

uh interesting but another thing that so we have

two different other aspects kind of of the film

right we have the rest of the homesteaders that

this stare at family is kind of i don't know

connected to kind of like their own little community

and then obviously we have the cattle cattlemen

cattle drivers whatever which is our villains

so to speak in this one that are giving them

you know a hard time for soda pop and all that

other stuff so yeah i'm curious you know between

those two groups kind of how you took those and

then also kind of piggybacking on what you were

saying about shane i do think it's interesting

it's an interesting way they kind of paint him

because in a way he is like the clint eastwood

character or the john wayne character or like

whatever that is but in a package that is way

more similar to like the jimmy stewarts and the

gary coopers and then like the the the more like

like he's not this big imposing person he's like

fairly i don't know regular size small like he's

not like technically in real life he's like five

he's like tom cruise height but they try to make

him look like normal so he's not this big bulky

like imposing person so and he and he doesn't

come across you know he's much more subdued in

like his demeanor and like his look but then

he's it's it's an interesting way because instead

of just having like the clint eastwood john wayne

like big bigger than life person you still have

that role being played because he is this like

can do everything is is great at like the the

guns and all the other stuff but then he's in

this package of like a jimmy stewart type package

or a gary cooper type package so i thought that

was kind of an interesting choice do you do you

feel like he worked in that and kind of how that

all played out and kind of get your thoughts

on on the homesteaders and the cattlemen yeah

i actually really like that dynamic because just

the historical context of it as well and i mentioned

how like you know this is very white hat black

hat but we do get a little bit of you know a

little bit better understanding of like what

uh you know chris the rufus the reicher like

what his mindset is because we get some understanding

that like we get that one scene where he's explaining

why he's so against the homesteaders because

he feels that they're taking advantage of what

he helped settle. And then I thought, what was

good about that was Joe had a good comeback.

It's like, well, you weren't here first either.

So it's interesting because that very much, in

a lot of ways, one, that did happen. You had

a lot of conflict there, and then there was a

lot of mirroring of today and similar conflicts

that exist even to this day. So I did like that

dynamic in the sense of it made sense. And I

did feel like there was real stakes there because

they have no marshal to go to. There's really

nothing stopping them except for just hope that

they can stand together and the odds keep stacking

against them. And I thought Shane worked well

as just that speak softly and shoot well or whatever

instead of carrying a big stick. And I did really

like Jack Palance as, like, the opposite side

of that. And actually watching this made me realize,

like, he would have been a great Joker. Like,

I hate, like, doing fan casting and stuff like

that. But I'm like, he just has that smile, that,

like, evil presence to him. Like, he was, I think,

a really good balance. And so I thought they

played off of each other. If anything, I wish

we got a little bit more there. I agree. And

it is, like, relatively slow -paced. I didn't

know that was the purpose of it. that was kind

of the you know to bring all the violence to

the end of it but i like that dynamic between

the the homesteaders and the settlers and everything

like that like the the way that played out and

you know the performances i think worked well

there what did you think of the fact that like

the homesteader or excuse me the the cattlemen

are basically like they represent the old west

right like if we're just talking about like the

american old west like they're the white man,

American old West. I don't know how many qualifiers

I can put on this, but obviously, you know, there

was, there was people here before us, but, um,

and stuff like that, but they're like the old

West. And then we have the homesteaders who are

coming in and they're kind of like representing

the, a newer version of that, right? Like they're,

I don't know if it's new West necessarily, but

like a change in that. And I, it's interesting

that Shane is put in a place where he's essentially

fighting to build. help build this world that

the homesteaders are trying to build which is

a world that has no place for him because he

is part of the old west yeah so it's like it's

an interesting dynamic that he's put in and we

don't get he's not a man for a lot of words right

like a lot of times he's like the quiet person

in the background you don't really know what

his motivations are and what he's doing but it

does set him up on like a very interesting like

there's a lot of layers to this because he is

definitely trying to help people who are somewhat

not they're not eliminating the like the need

for existence of the cattlemen and the ranchers

and all that others or the you know cattle drivers

and stuff like that but it's definitely like

a move to this other form of society that would

really have no place for him so what did you

kind of make of that yeah and there's that interesting

conversation that they have where he talks where

joe talks about like How they're going to basically

do the factory farms in a way where they're going

to fatten up the cows rather than having them

range. And the impact, like, obviously that was

easy. I mean, foresight, because obviously this

takes place in the future. I think Shane has

that great line where he's like, you know, your

days are over, cattlemen. And he's like, well,

so are yours, gunslinger, and probably butchering

it. But then he says, the difference is I know

it. So, like, he has that realization that, like.

The world's changing. He's not going to. And

I think that is kind of very much a representation

of what this movie is. It's the transition. It's

the settlement of the death of the Wild West

in a lot of ways. And what killed the Wild West

wasn't gunslingers. It was barbed wire. So it

was being able to keep farms isolated and have

more. Instead of going the range, having cattle

kind of stay within a specific section so you

didn't have to have them miles on end. And that

really helped create more settlements and things

like that. this is that transition like this

is kind of showing that element of it which i

think is really important that it's shot on location

because you get that sense it's and it's much

more effective when you're seeing that done and

you have the you know it's in jackson home wyoming

so you have like the gorgeous mountains in the

background so you feel like you're there so i

thought i thought like that dynamic was really

the strength of the film yeah it was one of those

that i almost wish i could have seen in like

4k yeah color well did you watch this in color

or in black and white because it's available

in both i think i watched it in black and white

if i'm remembering correctly yeah so i watched

a lot of westerns this week yeah i watched it

in color the first time i did watch it in color

i'm sorry i did watch it in color i was just

meaning like i wish i could have seen it in even

like more vibrant like yeah yeah color because

i think there was a lot there i think that's

what some of the stuff they did well like going

back to the beginning like the actual art of

the the filmmaking is is very top -notch like

the visuals are good i did appreciate i'm not

usually someone that cares about sound at all

but i do think they like do some stuff with some

of the shots and stuff like that to make them

feel a little bit more real like and and things

of that nature it's also interesting because

we keep getting throughout this western retrospective

we keep getting stories that are centered around

community right like in a lot of different ways

whether it's a community that's under fire that's

asking for help whether it's a person asking

for help from the community whether it's this

one where it's almost two competing communities

obviously one's a little bit more migrant but

like but we keep coming back to various versions

of what it meant to be a part of something bigger

in the west which I've spent a lot of time talking

about the west in college and studying it and

teaching about it and stuff like that like that's

when you were talking about the barbed wire second

class like oh that's like straight from one of

my lesson plans um from from back in the day

but you know what i think from wasn't a lesson

plan was from a it was from a comic book of course

oh nice there was a it was a lone ranger comic

by mark russell and bob q they did it was actually

had a very similar plot to this about you know

But they introduced barbed wire, and it was a

big center point of it. I mean, I knew it beforehand,

but that's what kept it fresh. I think a lot

of people don't, though. I think a lot of people

don't realize that it's not some big conflict

or something like that. It's something as simple

as just a new technology for them at the time.

But one thing that I don't think it's thought

of when people think about the West so much,

we think about the cattle drives, right? We had

a movie about that. We think about the gunfights

and the saloons and we think about cowboys and

Indians and we think about all of this, you know,

whether, you know, even like Oregon Trail or

prospecting or different stuff. It's all of this

like journey things. And I don't think people

think as much about what it meant to build or

be a part of or find a community of people in

the West. and yeah i don't know why we don't

think about that more because it's all over these

movies but it's not something that i expected

when we went into this right like yes i knew

magnificent seven had to do with a town that

you know was under fire and stuff like that and

they were asking for help and i knew a couple

of these like loose plot things but i was not

expecting like the overarching like theme in

again and again and again like even in the spaghetti

westerns right like we're still dealing with

communities or towns or places that are trying

to like build a better tomorrow or or stay a

unit or develop or different things like and

we've seen it again and again and again and it's

interesting because it's all over these movies

but i feel like it's not something that gets

thought of much when people just generally like

if you just go on the street and say like tell

me the first thing that comes your mind when

you think about the old west or the wild west

like they're not going to come up with that so

i do appreciate that we're getting so much of

that here and a lot of times with painted and

slightly different shades i think yeah it's it's

showing you know that'll question how the west

was won and we're seeing that it was won and

lost in a lot of different ways but a lot of

it was you know through greed through individuals

either kind of taking advantage of a situation

where there was a bit of lawlessness And here,

obviously, getting that conflict between the

homesteaders and the ranchers and just the back

and forth that would happen, like using cattle

to just plow through their fields and things

like that, just to try to see who would own that

land and just how... In order for states to become

states, even going back to the man who shot Liberty

Valance, I forget what state they were in, but

that becoming a state was a big part of that

plot. Here, you have similar ideas. In the background,

there's a lot of the... laws and politicking

that exists existing in washington at the time

that then we see like on the ground and how it

impacts here because like you know obviously

the homestead act is a big part of like why this

even exists so and it's not like you know they're

bringing that up but you're you're being able

to if you have that historical context it's i

think it's a little bit more interesting because

you kind of have an understanding of where this

is all coming from but without it i think you

at least see or at least get a good understanding

of why it's happening like what everyone's motivation

is it's very clear and i think everyone feels

like they're the hero of the story and even though

like i well jack balance is just pretty straight

evil but i do think at least rufus reicher like

he has at least like a point like i don't know

his point maybe is a bit jaded and he's going

about the wrong way but i guess like at least

at least you understand why he's doing it it

doesn't feel like it's out of left field i did

want to get your take on a couple other characters

as well that we just haven't mentioned and kind

of as we get closer to wrapping this up so uh

we have chris calloways uh is one of the characters

that kind of switches sides in a way or maybe

not switches sides but he has a different interactions

with shane at different points in the movie and

i wasn't curious what your take was on him i

was curious what your take was on the store owner

the Sam Grafton character and then going into

some of the actual homesteaders, like two of

them that obviously stood out to me would be

like Swede, um, who is what they called one of

the individuals and then Stonewall who, you know,

nicknames for a couple of these guys. So, or,

or any of the other homesteaders. So what was

your take on, on some of those characters? And

then do you think they, how much did they add

to the movie or did you spend your time with

them? I did find it interesting that, like, you

know, of course, like, the Northerners are always

the bad guys. The Yankees are the bad guys. It's

always the Rebels from some reason are, like,

so interesting. You know, Ben Johnson as Chris

Calloway, I thought that was fine. He didn't

necessarily stand out. I did, you know, another

person we've done, he's been in some of the movies,

Edgar Buchanan. He was, of course, one of our

favorite actors from, was it Penny St. Erinade?

Was he in that? I liked him. His voice was one

of those things where it's like, his voice is

super familiar. Where do I know him from? And

then obviously being able to figure that out.

Those stood up for me. I did like Stonewall in

the sense of him having a bit of a temper. You

knew that clearly he's going to be the catalyst

for bad things to happen. But I do feel like

everyone had a personality. Even the little bit

that you got from them, you understood. Who they

are. So you were invested in their plight. Even

if you didn't get as much time for it. You wanted

to see this community succeed. So I thought it

was effective there. I could have taken about.

15 to 20 % more time. With like Stonewall. And

Swede and Calloway. And Grafton. And then you

could have taken that away from Joey. And I would

have been cool with that. And also I will say

Stonewall. That dude had a loyal dog. Some of

the best dog acting. i have seen in a movie like

yeah so i thought you know like the you know

as he's getting buried the dog it's like me like

i think joey should have learned a few things

from that dog about being able being able to

sell emotion because that dog was amazing so

so i'm curious dan kind of as we wrap this one

up any other takeaways that you or comments yeah

i did have one thing about what did you think

because i think one we mentioned action and we

had to shoot outs but we actually got a lot of

like drag them out punching type you know we

had the bar fight and we had a fight between

joe and shane what what did you think about those

fights in general and did you in the sense of

the length of them like like what was your reaction

to them i guess to kind of keep it open -ended

i mean i thought it was decently done for the

most part. I think it was easy to follow and

the choreography was good. I was a little surprised

just because I didn't think they had placed enough

breadcrumbs for the intensity of the Joe and

Shane fight. I get that you don't want the guy

to go and that you're trying to take his place

or whatever, but it never seemed that they had

this super bad blood. Yes, there was kind of

this love triangle, but it never was touched

on. to a point where i felt like either of them

were mad at the other one or like yeah it was

like they acknowledged that this was a thing

but they also acknowledged that they were never

going to do anything about it so like i don't

know it was a little intense and it went on a

while and i was like is nobody going to stop

these two from killing each other because i don't

think that's going to work in anybody's interest

like yeah well i didn't i didn't take it as them

mad at each other i guess i took it more so joe

was like he was destined to like go and get himself

killed basically and Shane didn't want that to

happen like he was definitely he didn't want

to see it was basically Joe stubbornness against

yeah but I mean maybe there was a bit some personal

stuff in there too no I just mean there was a

couple points where it's like if you're not actually

mad with someone can you really do a couple of

the shots that they're doing to each other I

mean he hits him with his gun like that's like

that's that I think that's what I like that yeah

joey did two seconds later joey's fine with it

but he did not like that in that moment it was

almost an unhealthy obsession this kid had with

shane yeah it was it was a little bit but i i

guess i but i guess it gets it because it's like

this is like the it's like a real life you know

he doesn't have comic book superheroes he is

shane that's his iron man what did you think

about the other action sequence and the other

um kind of what with what happened with stonewall

in that sequence I thought that worked well.

I was just surprised with the level of violence,

mostly with the Joe and Shane fight, like you

mentioned. That was a bit shocking. And the final

shootout I thought was effective. I think they

did a good job of building up the Jack Palance,

Jack Wilson character, where he did feel like

a legitimate threat in their showdown. If anything,

it maybe even got on for a little bit longer,

but I get it. It did what it needed to do. I

think the, you know, the real emotional action

was obviously that, that fight that happened.

That's where the explosion of violence really

occurred. But that's, I was just surprised with

how long it went on. And then like, God, this

is, this is pretty, you know, cause like I mentioned

up to that point, it was like baby's first Western.

And then it's like, Oh no, it is not. Cause this

is, I mean, I think kids would be fine with compared

to most stuff today, but I thought it was. So

one question for you as a parent, Dan. Yeah.

You, you just have this like drag them out, you

know, intense fight. With this Shane character

who both of you are basically trying to prevent

the other person from like going somewhere where

you, you're pretty sure like somebody is going

to end up dead and that all ends. And, and you

know, one of you is going to go off to the town

to do that. Is there any chance on any planet

that you allow your seven, six year old child

to then run for like miles? after this guy and

go into the town which is the danger spot yeah

i would say probably not but i don't know if

he was even in the you know in the it was even

clearly had multiple concussions at that point

so uh this kid just runs and runs and at one

point he's keeping up with shane which is i don't

know like I didn't think that scene went on pretty

long. I'm like, okay, they're going to show him.

I'm like, is this happening in real time? I'm

like, this could go. But anyways, yeah. I mean,

it was Old West. Kids had to learn some way.

I guess. Just duck under everything and watch

the shootout. And then he had to be there to

warn him about the one guy coming after him.

He saved his life. So there you go. That's where

he made his keep by saving Shane. for some reason

i couldn't get my out of my head like this is

going to be a weird connection but like every

time they're visiting the saloon and like the

quote -unquote bullies are always there right

like when when shane is going into the saloon

it kept giving me visions of marty mcfly going

into the diner and like you know you're going

in there you know they're going to be there and

you know at some point they're going to call

you a chicken i didn't wonder though like it

seemed like the the guy who owned the suite or

whatever like that was like the one person that

rufus would listen to and always made me wonder

like why yeah you know like what what it wasn't

that he had that like he he was like the de facto

law in a way and i was just i never feel like

i fully understood it was simply just because

like that's he was a guy getting supplies but

i don't know well at one point they even have

a conversation where they're like we can't do

that because we're gonna you know make the shop

owner mad yeah what is the shop owner got on

you guys is he is he really like he was a he

was a badass back in his day too so they just

don't want to i didn't i didn't know why it was

the shop keeper but yeah so a final thoughts

on shane dan yeah i definitely liked it i definitely

glad i watched it as i mentioned i think there

are elements that certainly i don't say don't

hold up like we mentioned there you know uh it

if If you're listening at this point, I doubt

this is a first Western. But if you're looking

to get kids into Westerns or watch it, I do think

it's a good entry point into the genre. But I

don't necessarily think it holds a candle to

maybe some of the films we've done so far in

this more classic section as well as some other

films. But I do think it... I understand where

the love of it comes from because I think there's

a lot to appreciate with it. Yeah, I think there's

a lot to appreciate. I think the filmmaking is

good. I think there's elements of it that are

good. Like I said, I liked a lot of the people

involved. I just wished I would have gotten more

time with them, I guess. And like the Joey part

really drove me bananas. But I think I get like...

the influence that it has and the respect that

it gets for like doing what it did at the time

i would say that this would be one of those that

i feel like anybody that's putting this in like

the top five westerns of all time is is giving

more credence to first versus best and i think

films that we've covered have have taken some

of these themes and done them certainly yeah

i think influence yeah i think certainly influence

and uh like you said like the changing of the

guard like in the sense of like it doing things

differently for the time certainly maybe why

you would consider it that way but yeah i don't

know but interesting but we're going into a new

section next week that is going to change things

up a little bit because we're going to end in

talking about you know going back to westerns

we're going to be entering our revisionist western

section, so a bunch of westerns here. And I guess

I don't, what people consider a revisionist western

seems to differ, but these were all ones that

I saw on multiple lists that were considered

revisionist westerns, so people say that it isn't

one. I mean, a lot of these I haven't seen, so

I don't know for sure. But next week is a first

-time watch for me. I think it is for you as

well, but it's the Oxbow incident from 1943.

Curious, Kevin, if you have any background with

that at all. I know. I believe Henry Fonda's

in it. And that is all I know. I also am going

to just put my stupidity right out there. For

my entire life, I have not known what they meant

by revisionist Western. I know what the word

revisionist means. But I don't know. I feel like

some of them that we've already watched could

have fit in that. Me too. I'm not going to lie.

I don't know where the line is that you draw.

i know i obviously in just to kind of well i

gotta put this list it's on letterboxd but i

gotta put it on facebook so everyone can see

the entire list but what will be included in

this block as well uh bush cassidy and the sundance

kid uh the wild bunch which is something i have

not watched yet so i'm glad to give that a shot

uh we're gonna go back to the world of Clint

Eastwood with the outlaw, Josie Wales, which

I'm glad we're doing because that originally

wasn't part of it. But I know that's really well

regarded by a lot of people. Then one of the

most recent films we're going to do. which is

The Harder They Fall. That was from 2021. I think

that was a Netflix movie. And then ending with

what people consider like the revisionist of

the most revisionist Westerns. Again, going back

to Clint Eastwood with Unforgiven, which was

originally going to be the last film we did in

its retrospective. But that is not the case anymore

because there's many, many others after that.

But I'm looking forward to this block because

it's going to, you know, it's one we're spanning.

So we're going from 1953 all the way to 2021.

So that's a long period of time. So that's going

to be fun. How many of those six have you seen,

Dan? I have seen Push to Cassidy and The Harder

They Fall and Unforgiven. The rest I have not

seen. I have only seen Unforgiven. I will know

what a revisionist Western is by the time we

watch these six films. If you've seen Unforgiven,

you should at least have some idea. I saw Unforgiven,

again, like 15 years ago. So I'm looking forward

to watching that one again. Absolutely. So if

you've been enjoying our Western retrospective,

Feel free to jump on the social medias and give

us some comments. You can search Dan out at The

Comic Concierge, myself at Optimist Solo, or

you can search the show out Cinema Geeks or the

Cinema Geek Movie Podcast. We're on Facebook

and all the different things. So that's where

we've been focusing most of our attention. So

that's probably the easiest way to get in touch

with us and leave comments or feedback as we

continue to make our way through this Western

retrospective. But that does it for this episode.

So tune in next time for another chance to listen

to more of The Cinema Geeks. But then we get

a movie like Shane, and I think that's very much

where that mindset comes from, because... Jesus

Christ. Sorry, my son just scared the living

hell out of me. What do you need, buddy? I just

didn't know. Mommy's not home. Mommy's home.

Go tell Mommy, okay? oh man if this was a video

podcast that would have gone viral because like

like he came behind me he's like dad like whispered

in my ear like he was the kid from ring or whatever

it was like oh my god that's our reason we got

to go to video soon um anyways i don't even know

where all right let me but um okay sorry i have

to edit that my apologies or keep it in as a

blooper at the end because that's right um all

right