Western Retrospective – Rio Bravo Review

hey this is steve bloom and you are listening

to the geek cast radio network hello and welcome

to episode 255 of the cinema geeks i am one of

your cinema geeks optimus solo and joining me

as usual is the comic concierge dan how are you

doing i'm doing well i'm doing well excited about

this conversation we'll see how we are on this

one because i know we were kind of on the other

ends with the last film we did and so i was all

excited last time dan i was getting into my feelings

uh now i'm wondering you know how we will align

or whatever the opposite of line is uh i don't

know my brain yeah yeah yeah it'll be interesting

so yeah we're talking westerns again today we

just always like to keep you guessing as to what

we're covering uh not really because you always

can see the title before you hit play so there's

never any mystery whatsoever but yeah we're back

in talking about westerns here today we're gonna

uh cover another one of dan we made a mistake

though because I know nobody can see this, but

we have everything like outlined, of course,

because Dan and I are big fans of lists and Excel

spreadsheets and databases and things like that.

So for those of you that don't know, and obviously

we like to name like all of our blocks and things

like that. And I know we like created this block

and we weren't sure exactly what to call it because

we had already done kind of the John Ford block,

which was also kind of like classic. So we were

like, oh, just more classic Westerns, right?

I didn't realize that we should have just called

this the Dimitri Tiomkin block because. the guy

that has done the music for all of the films

we've covered in this block so far is at it again

with this one so i didn't know that either going

in until you know yeah so the same composer or

whatever for red river high noon and the one

we're covering today which is rio bravo so i

had no clue didn't even know he was a person

that existed beforehand but in retrospect we

should have just called that this block and then

i guess we would have had to boot out our our

next film and just made it a three movie block

or we would maybe he's done other westerns that

i'm just not even aware of i was gonna ask because

our next at western is shane so i was wondering

did he do shane don't think he i don't think

he was involved with shane so i i could be wrong

someone could correct me but i every time i pull

it up and i'm like oh the same same guy's doing

the music and the songs so it's very interesting

but yes we are covering um real bravo today and

before dan lays the groundwork for it i know

we always talk about at the end of the previous

episode but just in case somebody hasn't listened

to that one dan what is your backstory with real

bravo heading into this one this was the first

time watch for me so this was long on my uh list

of shame so i was happy to give this a shot because

this this is the it's been a bit since i haven't

watched one since like the the underseen one

so out of all the more classics or the dimitri

block that we're doing uh this was the one i

have not seen And of course, it's a blind spot,

as most of the films have been for me, besides

the modern remakes. That'll change a little bit,

I think. Not right away yet, though. But once

we get towards the end of the next block, then

I think I'm going to go on a trip of having seen

like five or six out of the next films that we've

seen. So eventually I'll have some history with

these, but no experience with Rio Bravo for me.

So before we get into kind of our thoughts and

opinions on Rio Bravo and before we kind of.

reveal if Dan and I are going to agree or disagree

on this one. Let's let Dan lay some groundwork

on the backstory and the facts about Rio Bravo.

So Dan, take it away. So are you team High Noon

or are you team Rio Bravo? As this week, we continue

our Western Retrospective with a look at Rio

Bravo from 1959, directed by Howard Hawks. The

story takes place in a small town of Rio Bravo.

Hence the name, where Sheriff John T. Chance,

played by John Wayne, arrests John Burdette,

the younger brother of wealthy and powerful rancher

Nathan Burdette, for murder. That's the worst

kind. Nathan Burdette uses his influence to demand

his brother be released. He has a large group

of armed men at his disposal, and they surround

the town jail while waiting for the opportunity

to strike. and free him reddit refuses to give

in unfortunately for him he just has very little

help and the help he does have leaves a bit to

be desired he has dude played by dean martin

former alcoholic who's struggling to regain his

confidence and good old stumpy played by walter

brennan an elderly and loyal deputy but he's

got a bum leg and maybe doesn't like to know

the difference between his man and the enemy

and a young gunslinger named by colorado played

by Ricky Nelson, also becomes involved. And things,

of course, get a bit more complicated when Feathers

shows up, played by Angie Dickinson. She's very

confident, she's an independent woman traveling

through town, and she develops a bit of a romantic

relationship with Chance, despite the awkward

chemistry. The bulk of the film centers on Chance

and his small group holding the jail against

Burdette's much larger force, while waiting for

the U .S. Marshal to arrive to take Joe away.

Rather than simply being a series of shootouts,

though, the movie spends time just showing the

men building trust, overcoming their own personal

weaknesses and demons, and deciding whether they're

willing to stand together when the odds are very

much against them. Eventually, the Burdette gang

attempts a fierce final confrontation. Chance

and his allies Lou turn the tables, though, leading

to a climactic shootout and capture Ethan Burdette

and his men. As mentioned, this film was a response

to High Noon. Hawks disliked the idea of a sheriff

spending a movie begging ordinary townspeople

to help him when a gang is coming to kill him.

He felt a real lawman would simply do the job

himself and only rely on those he trusted. So

Hawks eventually asked, what if we made the opposite

movie? And Rio Bravo John Lee Sheriff John T.

Chance doesn't go around asking for help when

people offer it to him. He's reluctant to accept

it. His attitude is essentially, this is my job,

and I'll do it, and I'll just bring the people

I can trust. One of those people he trusted was

Dean Martin, and it was a bit of a chance there.

At this point, he was mostly known for being

part of the comedy duo Martin and Lewis, but

he was trying to transition into being a serious

singer. and actor. His character, Jude, who was

a recovering alcoholic hitting rock bottom, was

a big stretch, but it paid off. Maybe because

of that chance, they cast Ricky Nelson in the

Colorado or Colorado role. At this time, he was

one of the biggest teen stars in America due

to the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet and his

own recording career. Hawks even noted that casting

him probably added $2 million to the box office.

A box office that did prove to be positive. And

also, like High Noon, its response, Rio Bravo,

was really well received by critics. And that

praise has only increased over the years. But

what do Kevin and I think? Back to us to discuss.

Alright, thank you for that. Everybody knows

what they need to know. The 411 is the... kids

at some generation probably said about Rio Bravo,

this 1959 Howard Hawks film, like you had mentioned.

So first time watch for both of us, Dan. And

I was curious, we referenced this a little bit

when we were talking about High Noon and that

there was some underpinnings of some desire to

make a film that was slightly different than

High Noon and things of that nature, especially

when we're talking about. uh john wayne and and

howard hawks they weren't huge on high noon it

seemed like so this is like i guess their response

in a way even though it came out seven years

later so i mean they had to get their ducks in

a row first so delayed response i guess but i'm

curious on a couple fronts dan i'm curious if

you see any of the connections or the threads

that would tie these two films together And regardless

of if you see those things or don't see those

things, it doesn't mean that they both can't

be good or they both can't be bad or they, one

could be one, one could be the other, even if

there are, you know, the threads that tie the

two together. So what was your take here on a

first watch of the 1959 classic Rio Bravo? I

certainly see them answering the same question

in different ways, right? Where high noon you

have, this possible threat. So you have the lawman

going around asking for help, trying to get assistance,

trying to deputize individuals where John Wayne

felt like that made him look weak. That's not

something that should happen. So with Rio Bravo,

you have the opposite approach where they aren't

asking for help. They're just accepting their

fate. And even when help is offered, they're

reluctant to accept it in the first place. And

they can have it or they're very specific, like

even saying not wasting your time or not wanting

to have people waste their lives, give up their

lives for something maybe that they don't need

to. So you certainly see different approaches.

I think there's merit in both. So just on that

sense of what they're trying to say and things

of that nature. So I think you certainly see

them taking. The idea of High Noon and going

the opposite direction, more of the tough guy,

like, no, we're going to tough it out and do

it ourselves type of thing. But that aside, what

really surprised me ultimately with this, and

we did Red River, of course, and we've done a

lot of Westerns, and we have had a lot of Westerns

that have had simple plots that are pretty straightforward

and you need to get point A to point B. This

is very much that. We've had those that have

more complex. more layered narratives but this

is a very simple story they have a criminal in

the jail and they're trying to hold off until

the marshal gets there and there's basically

the entire town potentially your members of the

town trying to get him out so they're trying

to maneuver but really it's just an opportunity

to tell this character -based story this is like

one of the most character -focused movies we've

gotten thus far and which surprised me because

It's not something we saw with Howard Hawks.

It's not even something we've seen a lot with

the John Wayne movies we've done thus far. So

with a movie like Rio Bravo, it's certainly highly

regarded, highly respected, and a big reason

why we're talking about it going into this. So

last week we mentioned High Noon and wondering,

does it deserve that recognition? Is it something

where you... Have a movie that's loftily praised

and it just stays there and maybe you have movies

that come back afterwards and do a better job.

And with Rio Bravo, like I mentioned, I appreciate

the approach. I do think I was ultimately a bit

disappointed in it in the sense of when you have

a movie that is so character focused, you have

to really like the characters. And there are

some characters that I really did like, but there

are some that I felt were fine. And there was

one specific character, which we'll get into,

that I really did not like and found very tiring

by the end of it. And there were some other elements

here and there. I still ultimately think it's

certainly a good movie, and I could see where

the praise is coming from. But I was hoping,

considering how much I loved Red River, this

is a lot of the same team coming back again.

It didn't have that level of excitement for me,

and I just felt like there were pieces of it

that I had a lot of, nitpicks about just the

logistics of but i was curious you know what

i know you weren't a huge fan of high noon what

were your thoughts when it comes to i guess i

didn't say huge fan you had your issues with

high noon what were your overall thoughts when

it came to this one so when i was watching this

film the thought that kept coming to my mind

and i know you like to do wrestling analogies

and things like that. I'm not doing that, but

I feel like we're, we're of a similar age. And

I think I've probably said this before on the

podcast, but I'll do a, I'll do a reference to,

to something that you'll for sure pick up on

from our times growing up and watching sports

and sports center. To me, this movie was cooler

than the other side of the pillow. Like this

was just like, I don't know. Like I was, thoroughly

entertained throughout this film like i i enjoyed

my time with it i enjoyed the characters i could

have watched an entire tv series full of these

characters like just give me more like this movie

instantly wanted me to suggest dan that we do

a retrospective on either angie dickinson or

dean martin like i i was i was like looking up

their filmographies afterwards like Is there

enough films that we could cover this? If Dan

doesn't want to cover it, which ones am I going

to watch anyways? I legit Dan because I didn't

want to watch any of the movies because it was

fairly late. I think when I finished whatever

I finished yesterday doing and I still had a

little bit of time before I was going to go to

bed. So I actually found the old Dean Martin

celebrity roasts. Oh, nice. Some sort of free

service that is streaming that you don't have

to pay for. And there's actually an episode of

that, that they roast Angie Dickinson. Really?

And, and so Dean Martin's the host and Angie

Dickinson is like the person getting roasted.

And it has like the, the, the panel of people

that are roasting her is just ridiculous. It's

Jimmy Stewart's on there. Orson Welles is one

of the people like roasting Jimmy Walker. Like

it's phenomenal. Like, I don't know. how you

know a lot of times comedy and humor doesn't

work from eras that you're not part of and i'm

sure there was a lot of stuff i didn't get or

that was over my head but i was legit like just

laughing and having a good time with it so that

was like my way of like i need to get more of

these individuals so like i watched the celebrity

roast with them as at a much older much older

age than they were when they did this film because

i think it was probably between 1974 and 1980

or something like that so you know, it was a

good 15, 20 years after this film was done, but

no, I just really had a good time here. And what

I kept thinking to myself, and I know we were

going to disagree on this because we had a little

bit of a different take on high noon. High noon

is an hour and 20 minutes. This film is two hours

and 20 minutes. So it's a legit one hour longer

film. A real Bravo is. And I kept thinking to

myself, like, how does Howard Hawks make two

hours and 20 minutes? of basically waiting around

just like high noon so much more entertaining

and like fun to watch than than high noon was

with an hour less runtime like they both have

ridiculously incredibly simple plots like yeah

we're we're both gonna wait for the majority

of both movies for some sort of climactic thing

where there's you know whether it's a showdown

or whether it's you know whatever it's like the

clock is ticking we know the train's gonna arrive

or the train's gonna take off or somebody's gonna

be a marshall's coming down the train so the

very similar plots i get like why there's some

ties to it but like in this i the difference

for me is in high noon i didn't give a crap about

any of the characters um and in this movie like

the characters were the movie for me like i didn't

give a crap about the plot yeah i i did not not

to be so crass i guess i shouldn't say that word

my daughter's gonna say i said a bad word if

she ever listens to this which she never will

but um the the characters were the entertainment

here and like i felt like i was like a part of

this town with them like by the end like we really

get to know them and we really get to spend a

lot of time with them and it's interesting because

not only is it a two hour and 20 minute film

which is long but it's also a film that doesn't

shy away from taking its time and really just

like letting these individuals hang out or interact

or discuss or sing together or whatever the heck

they're going to do which you would think would

be problematic in a movie of this runtime because

you think you'd get a lot of folks that would

be like Can we move on with this? Can we get

to whatever we're doing it? I never felt that

because I was just genuinely enjoying my time

with these folks and like learning more about

them and getting to see the chemistry between

them. Everyone's bringing in a little bit of

something different. I'm like very intrigued

on which character you did not like because I

liked all of them. Like equally, I was drawn

to all of them for different reasons. So like.

I don't know. It wasn't scared to slow down.

It was comfortable in its own skin. It lets people

talk, joke, sing, argue, just exist together.

It lets the characters live. The movie's not

in a hurry. And somehow, for me, that made it

more entertaining rather than less. So I am coming

out of this one like... I'm not saying it's the

best film we've watched. It may be the most rewatchable

for me, though. Interesting. Yeah. and it's like

because typically i like i don't mention you

mentioned with rio bravo or not rio bravo but

with high noon like so much of it are things

you typically love and it didn't work for you

same thing with rio bravo a sense of this is

the type of movie i love hangout movies i love

movies that are really not all that caring about

their plot that are really character focused

and i think ultimately like i love everything

around dean martin's dude character i think that

is extremely strong i was really impressed with

dean martin's performance because My experience

outside of this mostly is with his stuff with

Jerry Lewis, and he's playing the straight man,

and he's like, as you say, cooler than the other

side of the pillow, to steal a Stuart Scott phrase.

And he's the perfect guy. Everything goes right

for him. So seeing him, not that at all. And

obviously, his real life, he dealt with alcoholism

a bit. So I think he certainly brought that into

that role, and it was very real. How they dealt

with it, obviously, was very of the time and

maybe not always the right way. I do think it

was funny. It's like, you know, give him beer.

That'll solve the problem. Terrible idea. But

it is reality when you're an alcoholic and you

give up, especially to a certain level, and you

give up alcohol. It's really difficult, challenging,

and you have those physical drawbacks, everything

like that. So I thought everything around...

Dean Martin's dude. I thought he was certainly...

It is ultimately, I think, his movie in a way.

John Wayne's the star, but the story is... He's

the first real character we see. He's bumbling

in, trying to take money out of the spit jar,

whatever they call it. The one character I hated,

or just hated is a strong word, but grew very

tired of was Stumpy. Walter Brennan. We've seen

in other movies. I just... I just thought he

was up to 11 all the time. A little bit. Always

complaining. And I thought he was putting on

the voice. It sounded like he inhaled helium

and then also doesn't have his teeth in. And

with the put on southern accent, it just... I

don't know. Maybe I was just not in the right

mood for it. At first, I thought it was fine,

but it just kept going. I think the scene that

really... And I know that was the purpose of

the scene, but you have the scene where he shoots

at Dean Martin, the dude, and he, and he's like

responding to it. And like, he's just like digging

in further and further. And like, he's just like,

you know, I'm like, guy, like this record, like

read the room for a second. And I know that's

exactly the point, but it's like to steal a wrestling

phrase, there's heat. And then there's. go away

heat he had go away heat for me for a while uh

but you know so i just like i don't know why

it just didn't work for me but uh that was maybe

maybe i've just maybe i've just known too many

people that are like that in real life so i'm

like if yeah for me like i don't know i mean

i'm not saying it wasn't unrealistic i think

he was effective at what he was asked to do it

just wasn't working for me personally i was actually

trying to look up to see like much voice work

he had done i'm like i swear i've heard this

guy before i know he did sound like a disney

character like i feel like you know thinking

of like the disney cart you know the animated

robin hood like he could have been on that yeah

yeah uh and then i like john wayne he like i

think though in this we look compared this like

to his performance in red river where you know

he was acting like he felt like you had like

and it was a harsher wayne this felt like he

just accepted the John Wayne persona, and he

was just kind of in that. Like, it was just John

Wayne being John Wayne. I will say, like, one

part of this I did not buy, and I was curious

what you thought of it, was the relationship

between him and Angie Dickinson. I think Angie

Dickinson was great. I think they have the chemistry

of a father and a daughter. And, like, not even,

like, a father and daughter that, like, have

a close relationship, but ones that maybe saw

each other every other weekend. And, like, they're

kind of, like, hanging out, but, like, they just...

i i couldn't buy them i don't know like their

their relationship just like just it felt uh

very forced or like i don't know i couldn't they

just seemed to have like lack of chemistry for

me i don't know what you thought about that um

so two things i i think this is the most john

wayne john wayne has ever been yeah like this

is the purest john way perform like we've seen

some of the other john wayne films and we've

made comments of being like you know he has this

reputation but i'm seeing something different

in this film where like i i'm actually seeing

some more layers in like red river or in some

of these other films we've watched like there's

there's more to it like he you know he's stereotypically

portrayed like this and i'm not seeing that 100

% enough that this is this is where the stereotype

comes from i know this is later on but like i

feel like this is the purest john wayne performance

of his career whether you like that or don't

like i feel like this is the one that holds up

all the stereotypes right like the professional

confident capable principled there's no dark

there's really no darkness like there's not really

any psychologically complex aspect of his character

here um which i get why that would be you know

maybe not as uh why you'd be drawn to some of

his other performances and you know if i was

to list my favorite john wayne performances i'm

sure i would list some of those other ones first

this might be one of the most enjoyable though

because it is just being him like it's just like

okay like i'll just take it for what it is it's

like watching i don't know i'm gonna make people

mad but it it's like watching an action film

and you see like whoever it is steven seagal

or john claude van damme or arnold schwarzenegger

it's like they're just they're doing what they

do right like i'm not expecting a whole lot from

them right like um no like and i will say like

i thought i didn't have any issues with this

performance i thought he and i thought him and

dean martin had a good back and forth like him

being the straight man it gave room for d martin

to like fill in those voids so i thought they

worked well together so i had no issues with

this performance but you're right it's yeah i

thought he honestly worked well with all of them

in a way like i think his yeah like it's a different

i guess that's where you get like slightly different

shades like his interactions with dude is a little

bit different than his interactions with stumpy

i don't know why everybody has to have a nickname

in this film but it but whatever it is it's the

west right you know like i feel like the the

cartoon version kids would love because they

all have their own persona and their their nicknames

and stuff like that um you know his interactions

with colorado like they're all a little bit it's

i don't want to call him like chameleon because

i don't think it's that complex but like he is

reacting and acting with those folks each in

a slightly different way based on his relationship

with them and his like history with them or lack

thereof So I did think that was kind of fun when

it comes to him, uh, and feathers, uh, Angie

Dickinson, this character to keep the nicknames

going, which did get a little bit ridiculous,

but I, I know he was worried because he was worried

about the age difference. Right. And people not

buying it. He's 50, what? 54, 56 or something

like that in this film. I think 52 and she's

26, 27, something like that. So like they're

literally, he's double her age which i get i

think maybe i was so taken away by her in general

like i think she is absolutely magnetic and i

was instant i don't i didn't have a lot of backstory

with who angie dickinson was but like immediately

i was like oh she had to like go do like a million

other things like this person i feel like this

was like her first role and she's gonna go on

to do like 3 000 films because like she just

was like she had it she had like the charisma

the the whatever like she's got it i'm not familiar

with her career i did some you know some research

and looking afterwards and you know it seems

like she had like a she did a lot of movies and

then she had like some very substantial television

roles uh i think police woman was one of her

her major shows that she did they referenced

that a lot in the celebrity roast so i kind of

picked up on that as well but and she had a long

career right like she did stuff forever but man

in this film i was like whoever cast her in this

film like they should have gotten an award because

I thought she was just perfect so I can see any

guy like being drawn to her I understood John

Wayne's appeal I understood that completely the

other way though I was I guess I'm trying I somewhat

get it because there are a lot of times where

you're drawn to that persona that's like really

hard to to you know crack the shell on or like

you're you're drawn to the the confidence and

like the all of that type of stuff so i wasn't

as bothered by it yes it was a little bit like

i i don't know if i 100 buy it but like i could

there's enough in like what i've seen in in my

lifetime and and through other stuff that i i

do kind of see that like some some people do

go for that right like some people do do like

the the really hard to pin down like mysterious

confidence and stuff like that so i was like

i'll just go with it and i just like tried not

to let it bother me uh too much and then i was

like i'm just gonna like uh imagine like i'm

john wayne i guess in this and like we'll all

be all right as far as that goes but um yeah

i but i was i was definitely i do think like

one thing that i really appreciated in this one

and again i'm not trying to bash on high noon

but like we talked about character arcs and you

made a case for a couple people that you know

definitely you could see that they had some character

arcs in high noon but like i got a lot of that

from from this one especially with uh dude um

you get to see a lot of his like his growth over

the film and kind of two steps forward one steps

back type thing or a little bit um throughout

the film and you get a little of that from some

of the other characters i can see like some people

having a problem with angie dickinson's character

that like in the beginning she seems like she's

very independent and kind of an agent of her

own uh stuff and but and then like once they

flip the switch to she's i guess quote -unquote

smitten with john wayne she really does kind

of take not a submissive role but like she doesn't

have quite as much um agency as she did in the

first part i think um and so i could see some

people like maybe having an issue with with that

where she like is more in the forefront and then

kind of lets herself become more of the back

um going forward but i think she still does do

stuff that shows like she has some um some spunk

and some you know some her own willpower to like

make her own decisions but i could see like where

some people may think that was a little bit jarring

i understood her like her development there in

a bit because she seemed like someone who was

a bit lost she was you know she was looking basically

just surviving at that point so having an opportunity

to have some sort of i don't know safety net

or some sort of structure in her life and being

you know getting a job and feeling at at home

i could understand like her desire to you know

finally settle down and not have to you know

play playing these like gambling games and you

know having to right basically like cheat and

steal to get ahead so i i got that i think i

think generally like her decision making like

i i understood that for the most part yeah i

did one person we haven't talked to oh sorry

go ahead i think you're gonna do the same thing

i was gonna do so i'll let you go was it i was

gonna mention ricky nelson in yeah i was gonna

say like colorado yeah another nickname because

my question for you dan is we've had a lot of

this I don't know if tropes the right word but

like we've had this character like in a lot of

the other films right the young yeah gung -ho

or the young like whatever like Magnificent Seven

comes to mind where we have it you know we've

seen it in a number of different films and I

feel like we've we've been somewhat critical

of that role in a few of the other films that

we've covered where a couple of them came off

almost too eager or too whiny or too like really

searching for that like um acceptance or that

credence that they're they're looking for from

like the older more established folks in the

film we got a little different take on this one

where he's not searching for approval or acceptance

it doesn't seem like he is pretty confident in

his own right So I was curious how you felt like

this version of that, like the young buck character

either worked better or worse than the other

ones we've seen. Yeah, like the young hotshot.

I think he worked in a character more so in the

sense of not his rivalry with dude because they're

not rivals, but more so representing what dude

once was and could be, you know, because, you

know, dude isn't dealing with the ramifications

of like his misdeeds and trying to come out of

that hole. Here comes around the new young gun

that can come and replace him that maybe is just

as fast, if not faster. So I think he works in

that element. I think the thing that didn't necessarily

work for me as well, in a way, is that he just...

Almost the opposite problem, where he's almost

too perfect. There isn't a flaw on him at all.

So it's like he just doesn't have... And with

that, he kind of stays... who he is at the end

is the same way. Who he's beginning is similar

to where he is at the end. Although in the sense

of he's got more of this relationship and I think

they worked well together, but that was my only

takeaway. Like issue with it is that there was

like, it wasn't much to him except for like being

like the guy that's like perfect at everything.

And like that, that has its place. And I, like

I said, I think it works well in the sense of

having that and having it work against you. Like

he clearly was, like a plot device more so to

aid in the development of dude i guess that's

also kind of one of my issues then too because

if it is such a character piece and one of your

characters isn't maybe it doesn't have that much

layer do you have some issues there but also

i did like the performance and i did like the

little mini concert we got i was gonna ask you

about that Again, that's stuff I do love. There's

characters hanging out. And then they play one

song. I'm like, oh, that was nice. And then they

go again and play another song. I'm like, all

right. You can definitely tell this is a different

time. But also, I don't know. I guess Ricky Nelson

was a star before the movie came out. I'm not

really familiar with him at all. I don't know

if you are. But this is my first interaction

with him. I'm going to tell you a quick story

that has nothing to do with this film. It was

very weird that I watched this film when I did

because I've always questioned two things in

celebrity life, whether it be sports stars, musicians,

actors, etc. My one thing that I've never understood

is why they drive. Because you have enough money

to just literally pay someone to drive you everywhere

for the rest of your life and you never have

to worry about getting a DUI. like tiger woods

why are you still driving yourself oh yeah okay

that like that makes no sense whatsoever yeah

like i've never understood it like i get it if

you're just like totally responsible and you

don't drink and this that and the other but like

why a celebrity ever gets pulled over for a dui

is beyond me um so i've never understood why

they drive themselves if they can't handle it

and the other thing that i've never understood

is is why they're always obsessed with private

jets or private jets private planes um or like

small non -commercial planes and like i've always

in my mind because i went on one once like one

of my uh the old company that i worked for literally

the owner had his own planes and they flew us

once to lambeau field and you know we got to

watch aaron riders against tom brady and it was

all cool or whatever like you could literally

fit like eight people in this plane and that's

probably the last time i'll ever be in a plane

like that because i have this unrealistic like

maybe not unrealistic fear because it's happened

so many times throughout history where people

get in these planes and like, it doesn't end

well for them. Like Kobe Bryant, like so many

different singers, et cetera. And this is the

same thing that happened to Ricky Nelson basically.

But, um, the weird thing is, is like last week,

my wife's boss was trying to convince my wife

to go on his plane and they were going to fly

somewhere for breakfast. And he wanted her to

take Saoirse, my daughter with, with them. and

i was like i'm really not comfortable with either

of you going on this like small little plane

that doesn't have a like trained crew that makes

sure everything's all right and doesn't have

people that are checking the weather and the

radar like i know it's probably going to be fine

99 out of 100 times but like do you ever hear

anybody like you don't hear about a lot of people

die from flying like united or like american

airlines i know it happens but like not as much

That time frame where there was a daily occurrence.

Yeah, that's a whole other story. That's government

at its finest. You hear a lot more of the private

planes that go down for whatever reasons. There's

been... Roy Orbison died like that. A lot of

people. And anyways... What's his name? The guy

who sang about the... Oh, that's what American

Pie is about. I can't think of his name. Yeah,

well, yeah. Oh my god. It's the one who sang

it. yeah yeah but there's a lot of celebrities

right yeah john denver died like that um and

like there was literally no rain in the forecast

for the next morning where they wanted to do

this like it was like a five percent ten percent

chance of rain uh we woke up and it was like

a hundred percent chance of rain like i'm not

saying that changes anything but anyways it got

canceled they weren't going to do it my daughter

didn't want to go on it anyway and then i watched

this film and i was like i know ricky nelson

like i know he's a famous musician like what

happened to him this guy was in a plane with

his band there was nine people two pilots and

seven him and six other people seven people back

part of the plane and something caught on fire

in the plane the plane crashes and the two pilots

are the only people that survived like all seven

people in the back of the plane including ricky

nelson died um And like, I guess they, they said

like they found all of the bodies of these seven

folks, like right by the front door to get into

the cockpit because they were literally like

the back of the plane was on fire and they were

trying to get to safety. And like the pilots

either didn't know or didn't open the doors or

didn't do something. And like the two pilots

survived and nobody else did. So like he, he

dies in his forties. Um, but he was, I know they

said when they, when they put him in this film

that like immediately like added $2 million to

the box office. I don't know. that's like substantiated

by anything but that was like what some some

quote that one of the guys said um so he was

definitely like the heartthrob star you know

kind of in the eye of like building his uh career

and stuff like that so i get why he's in here

it did take me aback because i recognized his

name and i recognized dean martin's name for

some reason i didn't put two and two together

that we have two singers even though i recognized

both of them i was just like in the movie and

i was like watching it until they start doing

that sequence and i'm like oh yeah that makes

total sense because they're both legit singers

like yeah i i guess this makes sense but do you

know who they were actually going to cast in

this role before ricky nelson well uh no i was

thinking d martin's part was going to be the

guy from good river yes i think it wasn't um

wasn't it going to be elvis it was not the person

they were trying to get to be elvis can you picture

that I cannot picture that. John Wayne, Dean

Martin, and Elvis, I don't think that works the

same. My dad used to watch the Elvis movies all

the time. There's nothing about Elvis. I feel

like that's a whole different persona being added

to the mix. I feel like Ricky Nelson can a little

bit more fade into the background at times. I

could see Elvis and Dean Martin hanging out.

I don't know. I feel like Elvis and John Wayne

would not get along. They seem like... I don't

know. Maybe, but they seem very different. I

could have seen the guy from Red River playing

the Ricky Nelson role. I know he was rumored

to be the Dean Martin role first, but I could

have seen him doing the Ricky Nelson role. Yeah,

he might have been a bit too old. Yeah, he might

have been a different age at that point. But

as we saw him in Red River, I totally could have

seen that. But yeah, I think it was fun. It's

a tragic backstory with him, obviously, with

Ricky Nelson. I thought I could see why he was

the heartthrob that he was. And they did definitely

portray him as almost flawless. So that was an

interesting choice, I guess, when it came to

that. I'm curious, Dan, though. I know we talked

about saying that we hadn't talked about Colorado

yet. And now we've covered basically all the

folks like Stumpy Feathers, Colorado Dude. I

love that Dean Martin's just Dude. Anyways, one

thing we didn't talk about, though. is the quote

-unquote villains in this film. I don't know

why I said quote -unquote, but the villains in

this film. I was curious on your take, because

one thing that I really appreciated of this one

that I could see other people maybe saying that

it was a bad thing, because I don't think you're

going to remember this villain. Either one of

them, they're brothers. I don't think you're

putting either one of them on the top villains

in Western film history or anything like that.

But I almost... preferred that we didn't get

this like cartoon like dick dastardly villain

that's gonna like keep doing things to remind

you how evil he is and like keep making it like

even work like we got that a little bit with

the remake of uh which one was it um oh yeah

yeah we kind of get that where they like keep

doing stuff where you're like oh now he's like

even worse than he was before and now he's really

evil yeah and like stuff like that like this

guy's somewhat just like your standard bad guy.

That's just doing things that are somewhat believable.

Like he doesn't come across as like more capable

than he should be. He doesn't come across as

like a caricature. So even though he's not super

memorable, I kind of enjoyed that. He just was

what he was and wasn't, they didn't try to make

more of him. I don't know. What was your take

on the villains in this story? Yeah, I think

that was the right move because this isn't like

a story about a villain. It's a story about a

situation. and they're there but they're they're

not necessarily the point of the story it's about

you're you have this mission you have this illuminating

threat that really anyone is a villain because

you don't know who's on your side most people

aren't and you have someone's there that you

that way you have a character but they're not

necessarily the focal point it's more the thought

the idea of them which i think is completely

fine i think that's you know The idea here is

obviously that you're putting the focus on the

characters that are your heroes, threats that

they're facing, and not having to go into a big

backstory of who he is or he's the worst person,

whatever it may be. Simply, it's a simple story.

They see him kill someone. They have to try him

for murder, and they're trying to get him out.

I think that was completely fine. Like you said,

they're not characters you really remember. And

I think that's kind of the point in a lot of

ways. I think that's fine for some films, but

I know some people live and die on that. Like,

how good is the villain? And sometimes that's

important, but in this case, I don't think it

necessarily is. Thinking of something like Assault

on Precinct 13, which I think takes a lot from

this, other movies like that, where it's just

the idea of the impossible situation. You have

people stuck in a room, and they have to survive.

And it's this threat that's coming at them. And

I think that works. So I had no issue with it.

Okay. I also was wondering, the last thing I

had in my notes that I wanted to ask you specifically

about, I know that there's a lot of singing and

a lot of conversation and this, that, and the

other, especially as we move throughout the film.

At the beginning of the film, though, there's

a lot of visual storytelling. There's a long

opening with virtually no dialogue that still

somewhat tells you almost everything you need

to know. And I thought it was pretty impressive

how much Howard Hawks was able to communicate

in the first third of this film without any exposition

or without explaining it to you. You understand

dude's dealing with some alcoholism, his humiliation.

You get a feel for his relationship with Chance.

You see the murder. You understand the conflict

that's about to basically be the central point

of the movie. So what was your take on some of

the visual storytelling that this film was able

to do, especially in the beginning? I think in

the beginning scene, I agree. I think it's a

strong opening. Like you mentioned, just the

way Dean Martin is walking, he seems out of place,

but also in a very familiar location. uh throwing

the money into in the spit thing and like you

see just like him the desperation there and then

the way he sees john wayne and they're like they're

like their unspoken reaction towards one another

and then when he actually gets the opportunity

to step up and he actually you know comes through

so i do think that opening scene works well i

think the one element the where visually I struggled

a bit was, I don't think I ever fully understood

the logistics of this town in some ways. Agree.

Because like, so their big plan is they stop

everyone that comes in and take their guns. But

like, there can't just be one road, right? Like,

or like, it has to be multiple locations in order

to, you know, in order for that to work. so and

there's a lot of times that all all of them are

in the jail so like who's man yeah exactly that's

the other thing it's like they're in there and

like are they just keeping like because there

seemed like they were just keeping the guns there

they weren't bringing them into the jail and

they're like you mentioned they're not always

so like that like that is where i felt like understanding

logistics of the town was a little confusing

and then at the end we get like a whole new part

of the town where the the whole warehouse thing

is so that's the one area where i felt like i

had a a bit of trouble and understanding like

it's interesting because you definitely feel

like it feels lived in and then it feels not

lived in it feels lived in because you're with

the characters and you feel like you're a part

of it and you they're doing real things that

you would expect real people to do if they're

hanging out or if they're doing the things that

are having to be done in this film like i mean

at one point somebody's taking a bath at another

point like like they're they're doing their song

their concert they're they're doing different

things that like just all they're arguing and

giving people a rough time like guys would when

they're they're together and you know kind of

razzing on each other like all that feels lived

in But what doesn't feel lived in is the town

itself because you get no feel for what size

the town is, where things are located amongst

each other. You don't get any like not that you

have to have like the big great landscapes and

Western like visuals and stuff like that. But

you also don't get that. So it's like you don't

get that. You don't know when like this town's

like an amoeba. Like you don't know what what

the formation is or anything like that. So it's

like it's a weird dichotomy where like I feel

like I lived in the town with them, but I can't

describe the town. to anybody yeah yeah i was

there but i don't know what it looked like so

i don't it's like lived in but not lived in or

you know you know we get some side characters

here and there like like carlos and like i think

he comes in and i didn't love that he gets like

he gets a nice moment at the end when he's actually

part of the guy i was really worried they were

going to kill him to be honest like don't care

carlos he's been like i'm sure they were going

to kill somebody yeah i i thought i yeah there

was money That was my guess, was potentially

dude. I really thought Carlos was going to die

or something. I guess we do have deaths, but

no me. We're saying that, but we do have one

character. We have Ward Bond's character, Pat,

the one person that offers help dying. So I guess

that does kind of give the idea that anyone can

possibly die. Which also, I think maybe we should

mention, we've had Ward Bond and a few, him and

John Wayne. This was our last movie together,

because they did like 22 movies together. This

was the last one because he died shortly after

this, a year or two after this, of a heart attack.

It was also the last film that John Wayne wore

the hat. I read some type of trivia bit. Yeah.

The hat that he's wearing in Stagecoach or Searchers?

Yes, Stagecoach. I think Stagecoach or Searchers,

one of the two, yeah. Yeah, I think Stagecoach.

And then he wore it all the way through, and

this was the last time he wears it. And was also

kind of... interesting too is that this was his

return to westerns because he went away from

them for a while and i think howard hawks did

as well and then they were they after seeing

a few western thinking they could do a movie

like this that was more character focused and

then having john wayne come back was a big reason

why it got made so like i'm not for i'm not a

fan of like the way that they especially john

wayne like his commentary on high noon and like

the the stance he took with some of the people

involved and calling them not american and this

and the other like i'm i'm not a fan of any of

that but i i am a fan that whatever it inspired

them to do this film so like i'm fine with that

part of it but like i don't think there was anything

un -american about the other folks that he was

trying yeah without doing a whole lot of heavy

research it didn't come across and what little

we read and learned about that that that was

yeah he doesn't yeah like again same thing like

my issue isn't necessarily the stance and like

i like i said ultimately i'm glad i watched it

i do think there's a lot about it i did like

there's just certain elements now when you when

you have a character piece like this and two

of the character main characters you don't have

a huge affinity for it didn't necessarily work

as much as i was hoping but like i i was majorly

impressed with dean martin and i think he's a

good reason just to watch it alone And like you

said, Angie Dickinson does a lot with the little

time that she has. And that last final shootout,

I think, was actually quite good. Were you a

fan of the dynamite throwing? Yeah. And I will

say, Stumpy, I was like, okay, at least he did

come through at the end, so I'll give him that.

So there you go. I think the reason I liked him

or didn't have a problem with him is because

I think I've seen that character in so many other

old -time television shows from this time period

that it was just expected at that point. He did

have a pretty good John Wayne impression. I'll

give him that. He's like the grandma from Beverly

Hillbillies. He really is. They could have been

a couple. It's also interesting to me that you

get in the same film, you get stereotypical the

john wayne you 100 expect and then you get the

dean martin that you never knew existed like

yeah it's a weird thing because we've seen john

wayne act against a stereotype in some of these

other films and then this one's like nope this

is exactly like what he's known for and like

what i picture in my head this is nothing what

i picture my head when i think about dean martin

and it like made me way more interested in him

as a person an actor than i was beforehand i

was like wait a second there's a whole nother

layer of dean martin that i didn't know existed

uh yeah and he does another western too with

johnny and it's like he has like a little bit

of a western block and then he has like some

like the comedy stuff obviously and then he has

like that whole like uh um not james bondish

but like that kind of like noir type uh block

i found when i was doing my my research last

night but yeah i'm definitely gonna have to check

out some more dean martin i always was a fan

of his music and like obviously growing up like

the rap pack is obviously like always got a cool

essence to it you're always like oh you know

that would have been fun to be around or whatever

so like i was always like somewhat of a fan of

dean martin i think i even like preferred him

over frank snatcher in a way but like um I didn't

know much about him outside of his, his music

and stuff like that. So I'll have to check out

more of his films. Like I said, my mom was a

huge fan of like the Jerry Lewis and Dean Warren

comedy. So I saw a lot of those and like, that's

like, yeah. And the other, the other movies,

the son, the sons of Katie elder. And he played

the very similar. I almost, I almost watched

that. It was either watched that, which I knew

I wasn't going to get through or watch this celebrity

roast. You know, I could get through. I will.

I would say it's a deaf. I have seen that. And.

but I completely forgot about it. He plays a

similar character in a way. I don't think it's

as... He's not fully as broken, but it's a good

watch. I don't think it's... I would say it's

not even... Even though I have my issues with

Rio Bravo, it's not as good as Rio Bravo, but

it has a lot of... cool elements about it and

they remade that movie which i didn't realize

that you know that movie four brothers was like

mark walberg and i do remember hearing about

that yes so it's actually that movie's a remake

of the sons of katie elder which i had no idea

that was the case until i think the sons of katie

elder must have been something my parents watched

at some point because that title sounds super

familiar to me even though i know i haven't seen

it but yeah i think it's i would you know give

it a shot because i think you would probably

definitely enjoy i mean i'm gonna have to start

watching police woman or whatever this show was

just to see you know people make quite a lot

of tv shows today but like there's also like

that like uh right all right well she's a woman

she's in the police that's police woman there

we go we don't have a lot we can't advertise

online and stuff like that that doesn't exist

we just have to make it real clear to everybody

what this is going to be about so i i had a yeah

i had a lot of fun with this one dan like i i'm

like i really think this might be one of the

most rewatchable ones just because like the only

thing that takes away from its rewatchability

is it is long yeah i never really felt the length

because i was just thoroughly entertained with

it I could see why some people wouldn't rewatch

the two hour and 20 minute film. But like, I

did have a lot of fun with just like the watching

Dean Martin, watching the chemistry between the

characters, listening to the music and them singing.

Like I thought it was, it was just fun seeing

these for all intents and purposes, like legit,

really good, um, actors and singers, like just

do their thing. Like Angie Dickinson's legit.

Like she has a very long career. We know John

Wayne's iconic. We know Dean Martin's like one

of the most famous people of that generation.

ricky nelson was like a a very popular star that

obviously his life got cut short but like he

had that you know like all of these people were

very like good at what they were doing and it's

like it's almost like oceans 11 before it's oceans

11 but it's in the western like it's just put

a bunch of like really well -known people together

and see how it works and i thought it worked

well so i i had a lot of fun with this one that's

awesome yeah that's really good to hear and then

now it's gonna be curious to see because it's

gonna be a very shift we obviously have a different

person doing music but next week we'll be talking

about Shane and I think I believe that's one

you haven't seen before if I'm not mistaken correct

yes once again a blind spot for me for sure and

I have seen Shane but it's been 15 16 years so

it's basically a first time watch because I'll

be honest I don't only thing I remember about

Shane is the end only because like i saw the

end like like on like a afi like best endings

list or something like that so i knew the ending

before i even ever watched it so uh because it

has a very like famous ending um but so just

a heads up if you're you know researching it

just know that you might get it spoiled i won't

i'll stay away from that i do know that jack

palance is in this and for some reason i feel

like that's somebody that i've seen in a bunch

of stuff but he was What's it called? Is it City

Slickers? Yes, that's what I remember him from.

He had to be in City Slickers. Yes, he was in

City Slickers as Curly. And then also we're seeing

a return of somebody else from 310 to Yuma, Van

Heflin, who was the star of 310 to Yuma. He is

in Shane as well. I don't know what character

he plays. He doesn't play Shane. I know that

much. And Jean, uh, Jean Arthur. Haven't we seen

her in something? Um, probably only angels have

wings, Dan. We didn't do that for the, we didn't

do that for the, uh, retrospective, but we both

have seen that film. So she is, uh, was one of

the, the, the female lead, I think, and only

angels have wings. Okay. That makes sense. Cause

I don't, I was like, I don't think she's been

in any Westerns, but we have seen her in other

films. So there you go. And she's in Mr. Smith

goes to Washington, which is another classic

favorite of mine. And we've seen a few. um the

director george stevens why is his name sounding

familiar as well because it's two first names

and it's oh he did and i guess everything gets

connected once you've seen 50 carrie grant films

dan uh he did he did a carrie grant film called

gunga din okay which is one i have not seen but

if i remember remembering correctly you were

not a huge fan of that one so no that was at

the i think that was my if it wasn't my bottom

one it was in the bottom three or four yeah but

he's also done giant which is it was a big uh

well regarded which is i have was on my list

of shame the classic james dean movie so okay

we'll see perfect so i'm interested i'm gonna

stick with stay away from the research i don't

want the ending spoiled for me so i will just

uh avoid that at all costs but if you're interested

to continue going down this west western retrospective

we will be covering shane next and dan that's

the last of our uh, what we should have named,

uh, Dimitri Tiomkin, uh, classic block. And what

do we do after Shane? Where, what kind of block

are we covering after that? Thank you for after,

after Shane, we're going to revisit this idea.

We visit this site. Yeah. After Shane, after

Shane, that's equal. Uh, we're going to go into

revisionist Westerns. Our revision is West. Wow.

That's harder to say than I thought it would

be. revisionist western block uh and the first

out of that will be oxbow incident let's do some

other classics like butch cassidy the wild bunch

which is one i have not seen actually a good

amount of the ones we'll get into i have not

seen uh but and then some newer films so probably

our newest the harder they fall which is from

2021 that's like you know that we're gonna expand

a lot of time and then of course unforgiven probably

the most famous of the revisionist ones but we'll

kick it off with the oxbow incident which is

another one on my have not seen list. So looking

forward to that one. Absolutely. So those are

the things that you can be looking forward to

as we go through this Western retrospective.

I know it feels like we've done a lot of films,

but just to keep everybody in the loop, Dan,

I think if my count is right, we're just about

at the halfway point. So we add more. So that's

always a possibility. I think we're about halfway

through. Yeah. But we got some more modern stuff

coming up. So if people are more, you know, fans

of some of the more modern stuff there is quite

a few that are from the 90s and beyond that we

still have on the yeah and some different takes

on westerns because we're going to be doing some

foreign westerns some neo westerns which are

like some of the more modern takes as mentioned

and then if you're not if you're getting sick

of westerns you can check out our other episodes

which we're going through the planet of the apes

films although going through those some of them

are very western related as well so we're trying

but we're getting into counter programming as

we thought it was but as the more we get into

it you know maybe you know the the the later

into the franchise it gets a bit more right updated

and science fictiony so yeah so we uh we're definitely

open to hear any of your feedback comments or

whatever so you can always reach out to us through

the different social medias especially facebook

with uh you can search out the cinema geek film

podcast and or cinema geek movie podcast you

do something like that you'll probably stumble

across as dan puts some like very clever post

on there for the the website some quizzes and

different little games so you can follow us there

and then you can also interact with us and let

us know what you're thinking about these two

retrospectives we'd love to hear it and interact

with you on there so um that does it for this

episode tune in next time for another chance

to listen to more of the cinema geeks