Western Retrospective: Johnny Guitar

Hey, this is Greg Berger and you are listening

to the geek cast radio network Hello and welcome

to episode 247 of the cinema geeks I am one of

your cinema geeks optimus solo and joining me

as usual is the comic concierge. Hello Dan. Hello.

How are you? good good i feel like i want to

be one of those radio guys that's like from back

in the day like uh it's like soothing like soothing

and just like grab a cup of coffee and sit back

and i don't know um enjoy the soft underbelly

tones or whatever i yeah it's been a while since

i've listened to the radio me too obviously since

that probably hasn't happened in decades uh but

we are back talking more western films with you

guys so we've been covering a whole slew of different

western films and last time we talked about mccabe

and mrs miller and today we're here talking about

uh johnny guitar from what year is this 1954

1954 yes so before we get the facts about johnny

guitar just remind everybody dan what your experience

was or thoughts were going into it was it something

you knew something about was it completely blind

and kind of set the stage for you as you kind

of went to view this time. I knew very little

about this going into it, and I kind of tried

to keep it that way as much as possible. The

only thing I knew about it, because as we were

doing research, I knew it was the general tagline

was it was a feminist Western, in which I was

interested to see what that meant, especially

for a movie, as we mentioned, that came out in

1954. That's really all I knew about it. Never

watched it before. Never saw a trailer. I don't

think I've ever even seen scenes from this before

now that I've watched it. But how about you?

What was your experience with this? There's a

bunch of movies that we're covering on this retrospective

that were blind spots for me. But many of them

I have obviously heard or knew they existed or

knew lines from or certain things about it. Like

there's a lot of famous Westerns that we're covering.

This is one of those that falls in the category

of like the least I knew about. Like, I don't

know if there is a single thing I knew about

this film other than what I saw on the, I think

I may have seen the poster and saw that, you

know, there was going to be a strong female presence

in the film, but outside of that. I knew absolutely

nothing about this, so it was very interesting

kind of going into this, coming off of McCabe

and Mrs. Miller, also not knowing anything about

our next film, which we'll get into towards the

end. So I was very curious how this whole section

was going to play out. ChatGPT was very skeptical

on if I was going to like this one or not, so

I was curious if it would keep its streak of

being somewhat correct or if I would buck the

trend for that one, but definitely going in very

blind. um yeah so i'm interested to get into

our thoughts but before we do that let's let

dan set the stage with all the facts about johnny

guitar and then after that we'll get into our

feelings after we finally watched it for the

first time so take it away dan His name is Guitar,

Johnny Guitar. As this week, we continue our

Western retrospective with a look at Johnny Guitar

from 1954. Set in the American West, the film

centers on Vienna, played by Joan Crawford, a

fiercely independent saloon owner who is waiting

for a new rare world to arrive, believing it's

going to make her a fortune. Her success and

confidence, though, do make her the target of

suspicion and resentment from many of the townspeople,

especially Emma Small, played by Mercedes McCambridge.

Emma is bitter and very influential in the town,

and she harbors a deep personal grudge against

Vienna. Into the situation rides Johnny Guitar.

As a titular character, played by Sterling Hayden,

he's a former gunslinger who now carries a guitar

rather than a gun, hence the name. He does have

a romantic history with Vienna, but does try

to remain neutral in the town. although he's

brought into it after the town is looking for

someone to blame due to a series of robberies

and violent incidences. As those accusations

add up, Vienna is falsely accused, linked to

the gang of outlaws led by the charismatic Dancing

Kid. Gotta love the names back then. Emma uses

fear, jealousy, public outrage, you know, those

classics, to turn the town against Vienna, leading

to a dramatic... final showdown the film adapts

the 1953 novel johnny guitar by roy chancellor

though it's a very loose adaptation it changes

much of it making the focus the rivalry between

vienna and emma The film is officially directed

by Nicholas Ray, but reports that cast and crew

have suggested that was really Crawford who did

most of the directing, using her power and influence

over the production. Joan Crawford had a number

of issues with other co -workers as well, most

notably Mercedes McCambridge. They reportedly

really hated each other and fought all the time,

according to the crew. Apparently that paid off

because you certainly see that on screen as well.

Cinematographer Harry Stranding Sr. often would

combine location photography with studio close

-ups. A scene might begin with a wide shot in

Arizona, but then cut to a studio close -up under

careful controlled lighting. This editing style

can make it seem like Crawford was never out

on location, although she was, so just to clarify

there. The film earned around $2 .5 million in

the North America market, so it did turn a profit,

although its reception with fans and critics

at the time was very mixed. However, it was extremely

well received in Europe, especially in France,

including two critics, François Truffaut and

Jean -Luc Godard, who gave it rave reviews. Of

course, two people who would go on to make some

legendary films themselves. It has gained more

respect over the years and actually has a 94

on Rotten Tomatoes as we speak. But... where

do kevin and i stand are we with those original

who saw it when it first opened or are we more

with the more modern audiences back to us to

discuss all right thanks for the facts dan on

johnny guitar so kind of just to get us going

here dan give you a little bit of a setup here

so a lot of critics love this film they say it

completely flips western conventions They enjoy

the rivalry between Vienna and Emma. They like

some of the political subtext. They praise the

direction, its willingness to be melodramatic,

and its influence overall. On the opposite side

of that, some critics feel like the acting is

too much over the top, that the dialogue doesn't

sound natural. They wonder why Johnny is the

name of the movie but not the focus. Felt like

the romance felt underdeveloped and that the

melodrama could become unintentionally funny.

wondering what side of the spectrum you fall

into and what was your reaction on the first

watch of Johnny guitar? Yeah. So interesting.

I think I could see and understand a lot of those

high and low points regarding it and watching

it. Like one of my biggest first impressions

was like, if this movie came out today, like

the. internet grifters would like have a field

day because it it is a movie called johnny guitar

as mentioned he's basically a side character

you have kind of the females taking center stage

you know joan crawford kind of looking not like

you would typically see uh a leading lady in

this era or with the western you think of like

you know the femme fatales or things like that

like clearly not she's she is More, you know,

she's certainly more in a masculine role than

you would typically think of. And even like her

rivalry with Emma Small, both on screen and off

screen, they really are this movie. It is interesting

that it is called Johnny Guitar when he's really

like C character in this. I think there is a

lot to like about it beyond just that portion

of it. I do like the dynamic between Joan or

Vienna and Emma Small, the character. like their

rivalry uh i do feel in a way which we got we

have a briefing of where it comes from we get

some idea but i do think maybe a little bit more

would be able to let you buy buy in and maybe

understand why they are so vicious to one another

but They do have, I don't know what the opposite

of chemistry is, but they have it, like, in a

good way. Because apparently, in real life, they

did really despise each other. And that came

across on screen. And I do, knowing this was

written by a blacklisted writer at the time because

of everything going on with the Redskins, I certainly

see the ideas of mob role, what that, you know,

the impact that can have, the negativity it can

have when people just... just kind of go along

with whatever they think the big bad is and not

really think think it through so i think there

are a lot of interesting ideas i do agree the

romance like there is when it comes to the romance

there's like no chemistry between any of these

characters like the love triangle that is being

developed like they not feel like they at all

belong within a relationship with one another

and i do think that like by the end It takes

all these interesting ideas. It takes like this

groundbreaking approach and then kind of just

becomes another shootout Western, although maybe

with different characters. So I generally thought

there was some interesting ideas here. And I

found the approach pretty refreshing, especially

considering this was coming out near some other

films we've talked about, which had a very different

take. But I didn't think it was one of the strongest

films as a whole. There's a lot of ambition here,

but I don't think that ambition was always warranted

with the overall end up product. And I do think

reading into it, some of my issues made a lot

more sense when I looked into the making of it

and like, okay, we can get into that later. Why

some things felt a bit off, it all kind of connected

for me. So I generally... would say i'm positive

i get you know where where am i on the spectrum

between the high end and low end i guess to do

have a major comp out i'm like right in the middle

but i'm curious you said chapter gpt and didn't

think you would like it and it was right last

time was it right this time i would say that

it thinks it was right when i told it my opinions

but i don't think it was um and i'll tell you

why I think there's a lot to appreciate about

this film. I think there's a lot of good aspects

of it. When it all comes together in a final

product and through execution and whatnot, did

everything work and did everything click? I would

say probably not. But I think it reminds me of...

Like if you were looking at a director's... retrospective

like what you know if you're looking at like

a famous director and their body of work it reminds

me of that film that is done early on in their

career that then they come back and like later

in their career make kind of a different version

of that film but they do it better like to me

it's almost like something like that like there's

a lot of good seeds and good ideas here was it

done and executed like at a top level i would

say maybe not But, I don't know, it's almost

like, I know they're different directors, but

to me, in a way, it's like the earlier, not as

good version of Once Upon a Time in the West

in a lot of ways. Like, Once Upon a Time in the

West takes a lot of similar things that this

film is doing and just does it better. I'm not

saying they're like apples to apples, like they're

different types of films and they're doing different

things, but, you know, they both have similar

backstories for their main characters as far

as like saloon keeper or prostitutes who become

saloon keepers and and different things like

that they both have like a strong female presence

in it they both kind of have like this triangle

situation going on they both have like the mysterious

guns slinging outside i know a lot of these things

can be said for a lot of westerns right um but

to me it's like something that you would look

at any famous director and say like this is like

the the version of a movie they did before they

had honed their craft and then later on they

they go on to do something that maybe is on a

different level but i i generally enjoyed it

like the other thing that it really screamed

to me when watching this is and you you talked

about the lack of chemistry and i think that's

definitely a thing right like that's definitely

prominently featured in this film is i guess

a lack of chemistry but not always like in a

bad way But it really reminds me of a stage play.

And I know we'd say that a lot, but in this respect,

when you go and watch something on stage, I think

subconsciously you're much more aware that these

are individual actors that are putting on a show

that feel less connected with each other in a

way. i don't know if i'm explaining that right

but like i feel like in a movie sometimes you

can get lost in the movie and really feel like

these are family members or lovers or things

of that nature and i think that's much harder

on stage because of the like just the dynamics

of of a stage play and i love stage plays and

i love theater and stuff like that but i think

you're always aware because they're right in

front of you that these are actors right and

i and i think in a movie sometimes it can get

lost in like you just get wrapped up and lost

in it and like it seemed like it was always evident

that these were individual actors doing a job

that was a little bit like takes you out of it

a little bit like yes it is very melodramatic

yes there's some kind of like similar to whatever

one of the very first films we watched in this

retrospective where i asked you i was like is

this how it's is this how it's gonna be like

from here on out like are they gonna overact

like throughout this whole retrospective and

and are they gonna be like larger than life and

stuff like that it has a lot of that in this

like especially especially from and it's crazy

because mercedes mccambridge is emma small she

won she either won or was nominated nominated

for an academy award in her first role ever like

the first movie she ever did she was already

on the biggest stage but she is a lot in this

movie and it feels like she is playing for the

back of the theater like the way that her facial

reactions and expressions and her like the everything

her eyes and like the way she's speaking and

i was like oh my goodness did somebody tell her

that this was a movie um but so there is definitely

a lot of that there's a lot of larger than life

which I wasn't a huge fan of like, I didn't really

care for McCambridge's performance, even though

I did appreciate the dynamic between Vienna and

Emma. Like, I think that's obviously pivotal

to the movie. It's, it's interesting. There's

a lot of things like every poster of this has

the name of the movie, bold and front and like

size, a thousand font Johnny guitar. But yet

every poster and everything is a picture of Joan

Crawford and it's starring Joan Crawford. And

then it says like with, you know, these other

people. So it's like it's a weird choice as a

title, I guess. I mean, but she was. Yeah, go

ahead. She was a star. She was a star of that

era. I mean, she was clearly the biggest star

going into this. So, yeah, absolutely. No, I

totally get why. But like you are like thinking

like, well, the name and the star usually match

up better. But that's really has nothing to do

with my. liking of the movie or different things

like that but I just I found it where there was

nuggets of stuff that I like there was I could

see why some people would call it influential

on some other stuff that comes later maybe as

far as like some stuff that you could see it

I like the fact that it's two two females that

are kind of carrying the most weight especially

for this time period I did enjoy the fact that

I think there is there is even though from an

acting standpoint it's very dated i think there

is a timeless aspect to the psychology of this

movie like mob mentality and groupthink and all

of that is is something that's always going to

be present like it's always going to be prevalent

it's always going to be something that people

can relate to no matter what generation they

grow up in so like i like those timeless aspects

of the film and i did enjoy bits and pieces and

i did enjoy my overall experience so i was positive

in general but like does it stack up to some

of the other films that we've seen in execution

like absolutely not yeah so that's kind of like

my initial reaction interesting so i did actually

like mercedes cambridge's performance i i obviously

like you said she's over she's a lot but i felt

like it was fitting i guess because she was surrounded

by a lot and just like i mentioned like the back

and forth with her and joan crawford and i mentioned

like learning about the film and like the the

history of it and like what was going on stage

apparently like they truly hated each other and

there was like a lot of things she did i guess

one time john crawford like got a lot of her

coats and jackets and stuff like that and threw

them into the street and they had a pretty intense

feud and joan crawford herself was had a lot

of like demands, I guess you would say, making

this movie. I don't know if you noticed, especially,

I think it's very apparent in the end shootout

where you have, you know, they're tracking everyone

down and you nearly, when you have all these

shots and like you look at everyone and they're

all like on location in the background, you see

like this kind of rather picturesque scenery,

very realistic. They're clearly at a location.

But then every time you see Joan Crawford, she's,

you mentioned like how it feels isolated. Cause

I think that's kind of how they had to make it

because they would pan to her. And clearly you

look at, you know, any shot with her in the background

was very different. The background was clearly

like, you know, a painted background and it had

a very more like set feel because it was on a

set where, because she demanded that everything

she did be on, you know, on a set. So the lighting

was perfect. And I do think, Like it's almost

in a way it feels like it was edited where like

as a spoof or something in a way where they're

just putting in someone else. Sometimes it's

like she's in a completely different movie because

it looks so very different. So that final sequence

where it's like panning to all these different

characters and they're supposed to be in the

same location. But clearly anytime you get to

her, it's like very much not, I thought. so i

think that too like it seemed like it wasn't

just those two that had issues with each other

either oh yeah they all had issues with everybody

yeah i guess yeah sterling hating mentioned like

he felt like everyone was crazy on the set which

seems like it was the case so he said that he

said that like he would be on his way to the

movie and just have to pull over and like throw

up because he was so like not wanting to be a

part of it or something i thought i read and

i think i also read that he said that no matter

how much money was offered he would never do

a film with Crawford again and he's like in that

saying something because I like money but so

I can see like why some of these didn't feel

like they had like like it works for Vienna and

Emma right because they're supposed to hate each

other so that works but then when it comes to

the the I guess quote -unquote romantic chemistry

that some of these characters are supposed to

have I think it definitely works in reverse against

some of that Definitely, yeah. You don't feel

it at all, because it wasn't really there at

all. Even with the dancing kid, Scott Brady,

again, their performances by themselves work.

I do feel like Johnny Guitar, you get some sense

that he's trying to escape a violent past, and

he doesn't have guns, but clearly that's not

the case. I do feel like there's a story there.

Apparently, this is very different than the actual

source material because it does make Vienna's

character much more prominent, which I don't

necessarily have an issue with. But he does feel

like a very undeveloped character who just kind

of pops in and pops out when necessary. But overall,

the cast is pretty stacked, though. I didn't

realize... Ernest Borgnine shows up, who I love,

and he's one of those great actors that comes

in everything. He's super young in this, too.

Yeah. He's not super young, but he's young compared

to what I knew him. I just recently saw him in

something else. I forget the name of it, but

he plays a similar character. The other movie

takes place. one takes place in one day i could

get the movie in a second but um he plays a similar

character where he's like this kind of tough

guy enforcer who kind of tends to uh you know

tough but that ends up being the one that beaten

up at the end uh so it was interesting seeing

him play that in my head like when i think you

know i think of him in the movie marty he's like

this great like you know who's like one of the

most endearing characters ever so ever seeing

him like role like this but uh you know it was

it was great seeing him show up because he's

always a fun presence and then what you know

word bond who we've you know we've seen a lot

in the all the different uh movies with john

wayne seeing him without john wayne it's like

i didn't know you'd love to make movies without

john wayne let's go see i think i saw spork nine

like way later like in his tv roles he was like

in oh yeah murder she wrote and highway to heaven

and like little house on the prairie and stuff

like that like like i did not see him when from

the i know he's in a lot in the 50s and 60s but

i had not been exposed to him yet so i was like

oh that's the same guy like that's crazy yeah

yeah i also remember like mckell's navy i remember

him in the funny thing is remember him in the

like i saw the tv not the tv movie but the tom

arnold movie and he's in that too yeah he's one

of those guys who kind of showed up and shows

up in everything Which one was Ward Bond? He

was in The Searchers, right? Yeah, yes. Ward

Bond was in The Searchers. I know that's one

of the ones we watched. He's been also bringing

up Baby from our last retrospective. Yeah, I've

seen a lot of Ward Bond. And John Carradine was

in this as well. Yeah, old Tom. I didn't realize

that was him either. I forgot to mention this

with Emma Small's performance. I did like her

performance, although like... I don't know if

you felt this, but her voice, it kind of sounded

like Rocky from Rocky and Bullwinkle. I kept

wondering, I kept checking, like, did she voice

Rocky? Because she feels like her voice sounds,

it has that same pitch to it. Maybe that's what

my problem was. Like, I don't know if it was

the voice as much as the, I think it was more

the voice than the performance. Like, I just

felt like she was always shouting to the back

of the theater. I don't know. Oh, definitely.

I mean, I think her and Joan Crawford are trying

to have an act off where like, you know, they

just like, you know, who can be, who can, you

know, have the biggest performance and they both

won. You know who I liked in this? I liked the

dancing kid. Like, I'm not saying like his character

necessarily, but I thought his performance was

pretty, he was the, he was out of the whole cast,

like the least person that was trying to overact.

like I feel like he was just doing his thing

like it was mainly the two women that were doing

most of the overacting but and a couple of the

townspeople but like the dancing kid just seems

like a little bit more subtle compared to all

of that and I actually enjoyed his performance

I looked him up to try to see like what else

I've seen him in and I haven't seen him in a

lot but his last film role was the sheriff in

the original 1984 gremlins movie oh wow so if

you want to look that up anybody you can look

up uh look that up but apparently he's the one

of the sheriffs in uh the gremlins movie that

was his last role but i thought i thought uh

scott brady was pretty good movie i have yet

have yet to see so gremlins intriguing yeah i've

never seen we're gonna add that this christmas

has got to be a part of something christmas movie

retrospective oh and the movie i was thinking

about with earners board nine was a bad day at

black rock um it's like uh okay it's a About

this guy who, it's kind of like a neo -western

in a way. It's about this character played by

Spencer Tracy. He comes into this town. He's

trying to find out this secret. And it's a very

secretive town. And then Ernest Borgnine is one

of the criminals there. But that takes place

after World War II, from present day of its era.

It came out in 1955, actually a year after this.

Intriguing there. yeah so um i'm curious too

um as far as the film goes and you know we talked

about some of the themes and you know the paranoia

the mentality you know power and stuff like that

we do see some like pretty mature elements as

well like obviously we see a uh this place get

burned to the ground we see a hanging which they

just don't really pull many punches in that sequence

yeah like that just happens and there's a bunch

of people around it that are okay with it i i

yeah definitely it i think it did it pretty tastefully

and i was i was thinking okay well here comes

johnny guitar to save the day and like yes but

there's a cost there so i was like are we gonna

get the shot again like somebody's gonna shoot

the rope like is that what's gonna happen they're

gonna i did think that was i was like oh he's

gonna shoot the rope but no actually did like

the the solution to that where he's on top of

the bridge and cuts it like that actually makes

much more sense so there you go what did you

think of the constant use or go to of the like

secret trail through the waterfall like i think

we saw some of them go through that seat that

like that path like six times at some point in

the movie where they were going back and forth

to like the the hidden layer on the mountain

for the for the quote -unquote bad guys yeah

i did i mean it's a cool layer so i guess it's

like all right well we came up we're gonna use

a lot of our time on our layer budget oh i was

very confused though it's like the the the space

we were living in yeah like that the distance

from one place to the rest the how it's all is

oriented like it seemed like they would be going

off on this like long trail and then they would

just be right back in front of the saloon or

whatever it was and then it was like back to

the back to the dancing kids layer and like i

was like are these things next door to each other

are they right next door it's just a waterfall

connects them that had a similar idea because

i wasn't really clear if like they went through

that waterfall and that's where the dancing kid

hideout was on the other side of that and it

was like a quick yeah the geography was a little

strange overall like where everything was located

like even like the the vienna's like place like

where it is within in relationship to the actual

town because it felt like it was like out on

its own doing its own thing but it i guess it

was more so part of the actual town itself so

it i think yeah that the geography is a little

is a little odd here but the other thing go ahead

yeah no no not to the point where it like takes

you out it was just something that was kind of

like a minor detail that i was like i am very

confused as to like how big this actual place

is another thing that was a little bit confusing

for me was the actual dynamic between in relationship

between multiple people in that mob or like between

emma and like one of them was a sheriff and then

one of them was just like a powerful guy and

like it seemed like it was a little foggy as

far as like the hierarchy in that group like

I get like Emma's in control and like most of

them are listening to her but it was very confusing

as far as to like at times they had differing

of opinions but you didn't know quite how everybody

ranked and like I guess it was just more of that

just general mob mentality but I was not sure

where like I think it was Ward Bond was like

one of the main guys there and I was like is

he just like what's his relationship with Emma

like are they just townsfolk that both have a

lot of power i think well you had the marshal

and then you had the sheriff and then you had

emma who was like the you know she had she was

the you know bank i guess in the sense because

her husband being dead so i i took it as like

the the marshal was there because of like the

overall you know being a marshal he's more of

a on the federal end so he has technically the

the most authority but in the sense of uh you

know that authority doesn't mean much if if the

mob around you isn't going to recognize it and

you know the the person who's actually having

the money and can control the town really has

the final say so i don't know if like that was

what they're going with it per se like you know

we've had a few films even talking about again

once upon a time in the last where it's like

you know what's more deadly the dollar or the

or the gun so I don't know if it's something

partially regarding that. Again, possibly, but

that's the way I took it. I get that. I also

did enjoy the dynamic between the dancing kid

and then, what is it, old Tom and Bart, I think.

That was very Spaghetti Western -ish, where it

had this posse of people that, how much could

they trust each other? How much? Were they just

in it for themselves and kind of how that dynamic

was going to fall down when it came to like loyalty

and who would cross who? Like, I thought that

was an interesting dynamic. I'm curious what

you thought of those three. And then we haven't

spent a lot of time talking about Sterling Hayden.

Obviously, we know that he wasn't getting along

with Joan Crawford. But like, what did you think

as far as him as Johnny Guitar? An interesting

casting that cast a guy that didn't know how

to play guitar and didn't know how to ride a

horse. Yeah, but he was tall. Yeah, you can fake

it. So I did like the dynamic of the gang. Also,

I did like the fact that when it began and they

show up in the bar, or I guess casino, whatever

you want to call it, I did actually at first

think, oh, because when you see that opening

scene, you don't really get to see who really

robbed the stagecoach. And I did think it was

them, because they walk in and they kind of have

that presence of... being this ruthless gang

and finding out, no, actually, it wasn't. They

were trying to do the right thing and how they

get pulled into doing the wrong thing because,

hey, if they're going to think we're going to

do the wrong thing anyways, might as well. So

I did like that aspect and their dynamic together

to how they had each other's back but to a certain

point and how it was a bit, you know. How they

had a lot of rivalry within that group as well.

So that, I thought, was effective. And I thought

Sterling Hayden, I thought he hit it beyond not

having chemistry with Joan Crawford. I thought

he was a good presence. I've loved him in so

many other performances, but I don't think he

had an opportunity really to do much. Like I

mentioned, his character... we don't know that

much about like the little song he does do sure

like i couldn't tell he didn't know how to play

guitar i also don't know how to play guitar either

so perhaps that's that's why but i thought like

he has you know he has certainly a presence to

him he has the the cowboy look but it's not necessarily

a performance i would go to is like oh we want

to see certain hayden being that iconic actor

i didn't think that he had even the opportunity

to even do that here It says that he was offered

the role of Quentin Jaws, but turned it down.

That's an interesting note. The other person

we didn't, I guess I kept saying three, but one

fourth member of that gang that, you know, spoiler

alert, doesn't make it to the end, is Turkey

Ralston, played by Ben Cooper, who also apparently

has a, supposed to be a love angle with Joan

Crawford, even though they're like, I don't know,

40 years, or not 40, they're like. 20 years,

at least an age difference. But what did you

think of, I kind of liked Ben Cooper in general,

just as a presence on there. It's kind of like

the young guy who's kind of unable to be bottled

up or like, you know, he's kind of like the loose

cannon, so to speak, or, you know, the emotional

punk kid. I don't know if I really enjoyed the

romance connection between him and Joan Crawford,

but I did enjoy him as just an extra person who

didn't fit the mold of everybody else in the

film. But what did you think of Turkey Rolston's

character? yeah and we've seen this role a lot

right the young gun trying to prove himself and

often those characters can come off as really

annoying and i never thought that was the case

here there was a bunch more tragedy to his character

uh in a bit like the first time he has guns he

gets them blown out of his hands then you you

kind of can understand like the put in a situation

where he is trying to save himself in a way and

you could kind of criticize that character for

that but also just the fact that he he succumbs

to this this group and then pays the ultimate

price even though he told was told that he didn't

have to just like the tragedy he plays in that

scene like he told me I would be okay like you

can see like just the utter defeat within his

character so I agree I think he was a really

like a character that often can be the weak link

in a lot of other westerns I thought worked here

I think he was a good looking kid too he had

a lot going for him for this one I was pleasantly

surprised because he could easily have come across

as somebody that was kind of an eye roller in

this film especially with as large as they were

allowing everybody to act I could have seen him

trying to seize the moment and make every scene

about him but I thought he did a decent job this

film was uh nominated for a couple of the different

afi lists so it got a nomination for when they

were compiling the list for afi's 10 top 10 for

westerns and emma small also got nominated for

an appearance on the 100 heroes and 100 villains

um list as well so uh some love out there i think

it has like a 94 on rotten tomatoes and like

a 80 something on on metacritic but uh i guess

not necessarily a polarizing film, but I feel

like there is people on both sides of it. I am

glad I watched it. I was entertained enough that

while I watched it, I'm glad I've seen it. And

I can see, like I said, where some of the other

films may or may not have seen certain things

and kind of grabbed towards it. I do, like I

said, it broke a lot of the conventions with

the way that they treated the two main female

characters. So I think there is enough to appreciate.

like a easy recommend for like somebody who's

really trying to get like a full picture of all

the westerns like i do feel like from an execution

standpoint there are some misses and probably

a lot of that is due to this filming back and

forth whether they're on location or on set for

mrs crawford or the the lack of chemistry in

real life between sterling hayden and joan crawford

probably didn't help that where i guess it probably

helped with her and emma but like it's one of

those like i know you said like it's kind of

a cop -out to say it's in the middle but like

I can totally see that, and I feel like that's

kind of where I'm at as well. Yeah. Like I said,

I do think it's ambitious. It's going for a lot

of things that, especially at that time, you

didn't see Westerns do. So I do think it plays

an important part in that aspect. I also think

it looks really intriguing. The use of color,

even in Joan Crawford's outfits, they're very

striking. It's a very different style and look

in a lot of ways. I know when it came out, it

was not well -received, because I think because

it was so different and a bit ambitious, at least

in the sense of United States audiences didn't

know what to do with it. I read a lot of the

contemporary reviews at the time, and some of

them are very, very harsh, especially to Joan

Crawford, the way she looked. I can understand

why some of these actresses were the way they

are. they like went after her pretty strongly

regarding the way she looks like there was an

uh critic who called it like basically like beauty

and the beast with joan crawford being the beast

i'm like wow that is yeah they were pretty vicious

uh with with with her um so yeah but i i think

that's far too far too harsh for a number of

reasons but uh and i so like i said i think there's

a lot to take out of it also it's intriguing

too because i think originally this was designed

to be in 3d like they were thinking which i don't

know how that would understand how that would

work i mean maybe that fire sequence could look

pretty cool but you know it was like the you

know the gimmick at the time but i don't know

if that's why it had some of the color choices

it did because it had a lot of like flat colors

a lot of like a lot of monochromatic colors i

think or is that i don't know my color that'd

be something research like what how they were

doing a 3d option in 1954 or whatever year this

was yeah but yeah like i said i'm glad we watched

it and i think it is worth a watch just to see

its place within history and and seeing these

seeing some of these performances and just even

if they are a little bit big at times and i think

it gives you a lot to look at and like i said

i think too especially speaking toward to the

time obviously with this going on at the red

scare and the you know with all the concerns

about communism and all that stuff certainly

speaks to that and it being written by a a writer

who was on the blacklist you can certainly see

a lot of the impact of like what was trying to

be said and having that context i think adds

a little bit to it as well i just think it you

know sometimes it just and everything works which

is which is okay but yeah no absolutely i totally

agree so but what do we what are we going to

next so we're going backwards a year actually

so this was 1954 we're going to go back to 1953

which should put us you know in the same time

period same it's going to be interesting seeing

these back to back and knowing that they were

filmed kind of at the same time ish uh yeah i

the name of this one's called the naked spur

uh from 1953 and the only thing i know about

this film dan is the fact that i just pulled

it up and i can see that two of the stars are

people that were obviously pretty well familiar

with which would be jimmy stewart and janet lee

that is all i know about this other than the

poster has jimmy stewart holding a spur and has

a couple guys punching each other and that is

it says it's packed with technicolor thrills

so like Sign me up. I'm ready. What do you know

about the Naked Spur, Dan? What you just said.

That's basically what I know. I know the year.

And I know it has Jimmy Stewart. And like you

mentioned, Janet Leigh. So, you know, it's nice

to see two actors from the Hitchcock retrospective

coming together for Western. So I don't, again,

know much. Don't know much about. Wow. Don't

know what it's about, which I like. I like that,

going in not knowing anything, especially for

a movie that's as old as this. So, intrigued

to see. I know it's, like I said, this is the

overlooked western section, so I'm seeing if

it deserves to be overlooked, or maybe it'll

be a surprise hit. We'll see. I'm definitely

interested, like you said, to see the two of

the people we saw in the Hitchcock retrospective

now completely in a different environment in

the westerns. Obviously, we already saw Jimmy

Stewart in one of the westerns we covered. so

far but we have not seen janet lee so i'm interested

to see how how that works out and you know we

just came off of a film that kind of had two

females like front and center so i'm interested

to see like how janet lee's character is portrayed

in this one is it another strong female or is

it taken more of a traditional kind of stereotypical

female role from this era like that'll be interesting

to see for sure so i'm excited to uh see this

as kind of a the last of our three is this the

last of our three in the overlooked we've edited

it a few times and then we we did after where

are we going after this so we're in the overlooked

western section the naked despair was the last

one and then we did make some additional additions

additional additions that's that's about english

but we went and we added some we have like a

more classic western section i couldn't think

of a better name for it but we're gonna go back

and get some more of the classic westerns we

haven't included like red river high noon shane

rio bravo so um that's gonna be interesting too

because it gives us a chance to like go back

to that classic era now after watching a bunch

of these other kind yeah or like these other

like subgenres so i think it's going to be an

interesting way to do that versus watching just

all of them straight in the beginning um so i'm

intrigued to see how this this all goes what

else are we going to be like sending out into

the the episodes for people to watch recently

for those that uh are not western fans yeah so

we were thinking about like okay we've been doing

this western retrospective and we're adding much

more and we're like whoa what about people who

don't like westerns they might have No interest

in all this. So we thought, OK, well, let's try

to do something on the completely other end of

the spectrum. We're going to pick a franchise

and we pick the franchise to kind of go through.

And one, I think that we've had some experience

with in the past. And we're going to start that

very shortly with Planet of the Apes retrospective

going through all of those movies from the first

until the most recent. So I'm curious. Kevin,

what's your experience with Planet of the Apes?

I know we've talked about the more recent ones

a few times, but what about the franchise as

a whole? So yeah, so it was probably, I'm guessing

about 15 years ago now. Man, that makes me feel

old. It was before the modern ones. I don't remember

when the very first of the most recent films

was on, but I think it was probably somewhere

around 2009, 2010, around that time. okay so

that's if my math's correct that's about 15 years

ago um and so uh probably 17 years ago if i can

do math correctly but it was somewhere around

there that uh my wife and i actually went through

i believe we hit all of them so we watched all

of the classics uh planet of the apes films we

watched the mark walberg film and then we started

in on the modern films and i've seen so i've

seen every planet of the apes film at least once

And I've probably seen the modern films multiple

times. The first one I know I've seen three or

four times. And then the other ones I know I've

seen at least twice. So I actually do have some

experience with all of the Planet of the Apes

films. The thing that I'm interested in, though,

is when we did that all those years ago, we watched

them in chronological order. And we finished

with the more modern ones. So now that I've seen

those, I'm very interested. to go back and watch

the originals again to see like what other stuff

i pick up on or connections i can make which

i know a lot of people probably written written

ad nauseum on on all that but like i haven't

experienced myself so i'm i'm definitely intrigued

to like go back at this point and watch them

now that i've seen all of them but what's your

experience with the franchise i've seen the original

uh it's been a it's been a very long time since

i've watched it though probably similar to you

so the rise came out 2011 so i guess 15 years

ago, which makes sense. Makes me feel better,

Dan. Yeah, sorry I gave you some more time back.

But I've never seen the movies after that. I've

seen here and there. They'd often be back when

I had cable. They would come on cable and I'd

see scenes popping in and out. Why are they playing

under the apes in modern times? I know ideas

of where the other movies went, but I've never

seen them start to finish. I'm not really sure

much about where they go or what happens. I love

the newer films. It's crazy. I can tell you that

much. I can imagine. I love the newer films.

I remember when Rise was coming out and thinking,

why are they doing Son of the Apes? They tried

that. It failed. I think if I'm looking at my

favorite franchises of the 2010s, that might

be on top of my list. I get that seeing the 2001

version with Tim Burton and Mark Wahlberg was

like, they did that, it didn't work. I don't

know what happened in those 10 years between

2001 and 2011 or if it was just who was involved

with it or what, but my goodness, I don't think

any other film has made 10 years feel like 50

more than the difference between the 2001 and

the 2011 version. I remember seeing the 2011

one and like, going bananas for it like it was

definitely in my top 10 films of the year that

year I proceeded to like every movie since then

and I just think there's so much there like I

really wish that it would have successfully gotten

like mocap into the Academy Awards and things

of that nature but it's definitely interesting

so now that everything that has come out has

come out and I know there could be more or something

that would come on down the road but we're at

10 of them 10 films so far so Nice round number.

So out of the 10, you've fully seen how many?

I've seen the first and then the next, the three.

I actually have not seen the most recent one.

And you haven't seen the Tim Burton one or no?

I've seen the Tim Burton one. Yeah. I saw that

in theaters actually. You've seen five of the

10. Yeah. So I've not seen half of them. So that's

exciting. I have read some of the comics. Yeah.

I have read some of the comics, because there's

been a lot of Planet of the Apes comics, and

I'll talk about that when we get into the first

movie, because there's actually a comic that

is an adaptation of Roger Sterling's original

draft for the Planet of the Apes, which was going

to be much different than the movie itself, but

had to be changed because it would have been

far too expensive to do, because it was more

of like... Planet of the Apes in more like modern

time. So I've always loved the franchise. So

I've always wanted to go back and watch those

movies. So now it's a good opportunity to do

that. And then, of course, like we mentioned,

if you're someone who doesn't like Westerns,

perhaps you'll like science fiction. And also,

I don't think we've ever talked about them or

done reviews of them, even the newer ones. I

think we've talked about them as they've come

up in year -end awards or top tens or stuff like

that, but that's probably about it. The other

thing that's interesting is that there's ten

films and there's eight different directors.

So it's always a different flavor. Yeah, true.

So yeah, you can either get to our Western love

and continue on with us there, or you can switch

over to sci -fi, or you can do both. Just mix

it up and watch both and listen to us if you

can't get enough of us. I don't know if that's

possible. And you can keep up with all that stuff.

Dan, do you want to give them a heads up on how

they can interact with us online? Yeah, and hopefully

I'll get back to doing more. I've been on vacation.

But check out our Facebook page at the Cinema

Geekcast podcast. We've been putting hopefully

more stuff up on there. I'm going to put some

stuff about our box office draft, how that's

going, and other things like that. You can also

follow Dan. i am getting crushed i am doing horrible

so we'll see well i still got some coming yeah

well but like supergirl did not help me no but

animal like animal farm i think lost somehow

like has negative money i don't know there's

a couple picks we wish we could have back that's

for sure Yeah. And certain ones I wish I definitely

picked, like I really underestimated some of

the horror films. We'll talk about it another

time, but yeah. So, but I am not, it's, if this

was a fantasy football season, I'd be like, Oh,

an eight at this point. So, but yeah, I can also,

and you can find me on social media platforms

at comic concierge. Yeah, and you can find me

at Optimus Solo. We also may be putting out an

episode soon that gives you some more modern

takes on 2026 films as we have crossed the halfway

point. We might give you guys a little update

on the stuff that we've seen. I know Dan's been

hitting the pavement hard with film watching

this year. You have me destroyed. I think I accidentally

let myself get wrapped up into like... four or

five different tv series that really started

dominating my time and i need to i need to catch

up on some movies so uh but i know you've seen

a bunch and i probably have some great recommendations

so we'll try to get that out for people to listen

to soon as well so um if you have any ideas or

comments for the show dan just gave you the ways

to to search us out and and drop those comments

and we definitely will listen to all comments

and take all feedback and as we go forward but

and that does it for this episode so tune in

next time for another chance to listen to more

of the cinema geeks