Interview with Emily R. Gillis and Crystal M. Rollins on

Hi, this is Kevin Conroy and you're listening

to the Geekcast Radio Network. You are now on

the inside of what I like to call the circle

of trust. We are all connected in a great circle

of life. You know something Bert? What? I think

you and I are going in circles. It feels like

we're going in circles. The Circle is now complete.

When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I

am the master. Because it's a circle. Yeah, we

heard about the circle. Yes, we're familiar with

shapes. Hi, this is Greg. This is Chuck. And

this is Dan, and we are Talking in Circle, brought

to you by the GeekCast Radio Network. And this

week we are very proud to have our second...

Gas and of course, we're gonna have a second

guess. We're gonna double up this time is it's

the sequel, right? Yes, exactly You gotta go

gotta have Robin in there with that man. Exactly

I would like to welcome Emily and crystal from

wayward studios as they they run a great online

comic that we'll get into and I I had the opportunity

to Check out their stuff from Baltimore Comic

-Con and now we're bringing them on the show

to kind of get it get into what they do and Bring

them into the wonderful world of talking in circles.

So thank you. Thank you both for joining us today

Thanks for having us Nice to be here. Thank you.

Thank you for those that don't know Do you mind

just kind of giving you like a brief overview

of what wayward studios is and I am saying that

correctly I know I like to print mispronounce

words. I'm gonna make sure I'm not mispronouncing

that you're saying it just fine Wayward studios

is a partnership between crystal and I and we

just work on various independent projects together

I believe just reading from your site online

that both of you met in college and it has and

that's kind of where you started this whole or

at least started the process of writing comics

together. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, you know,

it's funny. We didn't really partner up so much

in college anymore. So then our group of friends,

we tended to sort of hang out, draw things, write

things, shoot the breeze creatively. And it wasn't

until everybody kind of scattered to the winds

and me and him. separately on our own had started

up comic projects and we got back in touch because

we were the only people we knew who were still

working on comics after college. I don't even

remember how it really started. We were just

chatting with each other back and forth about

this problem or that problem or how it was going

with our comics. The comics that you I know you

have right now you've a you have at least on

the site right now You have a couple different

ones have those been ideas that you've been kind

of just come to you recently since Since the

site has opened or are those ones that you've

kind of worked on since you've been writing comics

Well, I know my main project, Jacocha, I've been

working on since I was a freshman in high school.

So it's kind of been a long time coming. Wow.

Mind you, it's one of those comics that she's

completely redrawn and scrapped like four times,

five times. What is it? Only four. And my comic

aspect was the same way, only J 'Kosha at least

kept the same name every time. My comic, I kept

changing the names. It's existed in one firm

or another since... East Early High School, possibly

Middle School. Because it was basically the role

-playing adventures of me and my group of friends

from Middle School. So I don't recall at one

point it really actually started being a comic

versus just being random... Internet chat rooms

late into the night during the ye olde era of

text -based chat rooms back in like 98 Wow, yeah

back when the internet was all gears and you

know, you ran into like literal like cast iron

tubes Yeah, not these fancy plastic tubes we

have these days but like cast iron with lead

solder Very nice. So you said you played role

playing games in high school. So what type of

role playing games did you partake in? I was

actually part of the role playing club at my

school. And D &D was kind of the first thing,

but I played, let's see, D &D, a couple different

White Wolf expansions. I actually DM'd Bessam,

which is like an anime based role playing game.

Gosh, what's the one that's like set in like

a fallout kind of world and has ridiculously

overcomplicated rules. I think it's basically

the GURPS universe. No, Detroit. That is very

close to fallout. Rifts? I want to say it's called

rifts or something. Gosh. But yeah, mainly those.

And a lot of the people I dealt with actually

were writing their own campaigns and writing

their own storylines in part because, you know,

we were high schoolers, so we were dirt poor

and we couldn't afford the expansion modules

and stuff. And partially just because I seem

to have always fallen in with a crowd of people

that wanted to just write their own stories.

I lacked creativity to play real playing games.

But I think, Greg, you partake in The Wonderful

Walder of Dungeons & Dragons. Am I wrong? It

was just way too much math for me. That's why

I tended to go more towards playing games like

Fallout or Skyrim. D &D isn't too bad. You would

have hated riffs. People have jokingly called

it Dungeons and Dragons the Calculus Edition.

The entire GURF system is notorious for that.

It's too much math, too much trying to figure

out what different things you can do and at what

times you can do them. It was just way too much.

I always had somebody there telling me what to

do. I don't really play that much at this point.

It was mostly because of a girlfriend I had at

the time. Of course, you know. That's how you

get into everything, right? Yeah. Well, I'm into

most generally nerdy stuff and I wanted to try

it out, but... I know you brought up Jacocha.

I know, Crystal, you do the colors for that and

Emily, you mentioned that's your project. So

is that the only book that you kind of have joined

in together on so far? We pretty much work on

all of our stuff together to some extent or another.

I was helping out a lot with some of the preliminary

coloring with Aspect. And I also did it for a

while with Skyborne, but I've kind of fallen

back to kind of a consultant or an editor. And

that's important just because we've both gotten

really busy and I was starting to slack with

getting the line art to her and she was starting

to slack with getting me the flats colors back.

We got help. Yeah, my friend Ricky is unemployed

and she seemed interested in learning how all

this stuff went together. So I've been starting

to teach her how to do flats in Photoshop. Will

first admit I am artistic illiterate so I can

look at something and think it out looks pretty

but You're Greg he's like yourselves you guys

went to school for graphic design But I guess

so the coloring that you use is it mostly digital

coloring or I thought looking at some of it I'm

like almost look like water coloring. I don't

I don't know if that was kind of what you use

or if that was just the the way it was made.

You know it's ironic because watercolor is like

my worst medium ever. I hate watercolors with

a passion. Not how they look, but because I just

suck at them. Really bad. All of my coloring

for all the stuff I'm printing is entirely digital

now. I do make like sketch cards and things on

the side using markers, and I keep intending

to get back into acrylic wash, which was one

of the things I was better at. But reproducing

colors from traditional media, it's just really

touchy and Annoying and obnoxious. So I got out

of that pretty quickly. I used to do the covers

For like the additions I did back in high school

and even going into part of my college comic

stuff I did do some with traditional mediums

I was actually really good at airbrush surprisingly.

Oh, wow. So I did a couple the covers with airbrush

in college But god, it's way too long. I could

imagine like I think I put in 20 or 30 hours

on a cover That's crazy. Wow. Airbrushes can

be really fast, but to get good depth of colors,

it's a really slow medium, surprisingly, because

you have to layer and softly add and add and

add. It's almost like oil paints in that way.

A really good oil painting, you're layering translucent

layers of color. and letting them dry and layering

color and letting them dry. And it's the same

way with airbrush. If you're doing like a really

detailed, really color intensive work is it's

like layer and dry and layer and dry. And if

you work in it too fast, you get stuff that bleeds

over itself because, you know, the material is

still wet. I learned something new today because

I could, you know, my extent of airbrushing was

when I went to the boardwalk and I would get

a t -shirt that was airbrushed. So I had no idea

that you could even go through and make a cover

with it. That's pretty insane Do you do you have

any of those on your website at all? Are those

just personal? Uh the air you know, I didn't

because airbrush takes so long I think I only

ever made like seven artworks ever if you go

to my deviant art though, I did A painting that

still hangs by my husband's computer of his character

from world warcraft He had a troll warrior that

I did a painting of. So with World of Warcraft,

are you also a player as well? I am. I got sucked

back in recently and it's really killed my...

With the new expansion. Yes. I have some issues

with Draenor mostly that I feel like I'm pushing

buttons and getting rewards. It feels a little

bit like a Skinner box now, but there's other

things that are really awesome with this expansion.

And I missed all of Pandaria just because I put

it aside to try and get... Aspect book one and

jacosha book one out me and M went together for

this massive crunch back in 2012 I think that

was that yeah We were getting out like four or

five pages of each of our comics every week So

we were basically getting like four hours of

sleep a night and then that's going to work doing

a full day of work coming home and Spending all

our time on the comic. It's awesome. Like there

was no room for video games. There was no room

for anything else No room for video. So you chose?

Sleep over video games. I know I chose comics

over sleep and video games I'm not kidding about

the four hours of sleep part. I would go to bed

at like one in the morning and I would get up

for work at 530 in the morning because my day

job I work 7 to 330 I do I do pre -press all

day. So we we do kind of a slightly early shift

so that we're Available for our East Coast clients

because their nine to five shift is more like

our seven to three shift Also, it means I miss

rush hour traffic which here in Seattle can really

suck I'm jealous. We had a little brief discussion

about traffic before we started the podcast and

I am NOT a fan I got pulled over the other week

actually Thanks for bringing that up. You know,

part of the reason I finally got a new car is

I got pulled over from my tabs being expired,

and I had already had that happen last Christmas,

and my car failed its emission test, so I'm like,

hmm, pay $300 for the chance of them fixing my

engine and getting my new tabs, or just suck

it up and get a new car, because my car is like

14 years old. Oh, wow. I don't do much mileage.

I'm bitching about traffic, but I even now I

only live like seven miles from work before we

moved into our house I only lived two miles from

work That is so I was putting like 5 ,000 miles

on my car per year You could you couldn't basically

coast to your work you probably didn't have I

thought about actually getting a bicycle sometimes

I used to bicycle up in the only thing is it's

a really steep hill It was like two miles straight

downhill to work and like straight uphill the

way home And i'm just not in the shape I used

to be in in high school because I used to do

that every day in high school. Yeah was I Would

coast to school like 30 miles an hour down the

hill and then like chug uphill the whole way

home It was two miles each way. That's why you

get somebody to pick you up Yeah, I never had

that. My parents would get in late at night.

They'd leave early in the morning. No one was

ever available to give me a ride to school. If

I had a flat tire, I was hosed. Besides, if she

could get rides, we couldn't be yelling about

kids getting off of our front lawns and walking

two miles both ways in the snow. Yeah. I'm assuming

that uphill two miles, it is both directions,

right? Naturally. Yeah. No. I'm super jealous

of this because it's my I'm similar to me. Like

I my wife she works her we live close to her

work She's like, you know, she'll come home and

like I had a lot of traffic today. It was a 20

-minute drive It took me two hours get to work

yesterday Which is great because I get an opportunity

to listen to podcasts, but uh, you know, that's

great But they can't they get back on the comics

because this isn't traffic cast no matter how

hard I want it to be Traffic atomic I can see

that it's just the same panel over and over again

Very realistic though. It is very realistic.

So But Emily I didn't have a question for you

because this looking at a lot of your comics

that we were talking about coloring earlier and

I noticed like with Stuff like, you know, the

day in the life of your cats and a few other

your comics you you tend to go more the black

and white with your comics at least, you know,

Is that a personal choice? Is that something

you prefer or is it just a time consideration

with those short comics? You're seeing there.

Those are actually all 24 hour comics. So that's

a time crunch And I actually have been working

on cleaning up my fourth 24 hour comic, which

is also black and white, of course But I tend

to stay away from color because Crystal's so

much better at it than I am. So I'm intimidated.

So this tells you something about our friendship,

that the way I got started doing colors for him.

So her comics - She saw mine sucked. Look, I'm

just kidding. Come on, it's better if I tell

the story. Let me tell the story. So, like, Takosha

was in black and white initially. She was doing

pens and she was doing markers over the pens.

And it looked OK. But at some point, like, she

decided she wanted to go into color. And I was

kind of giving her some coaching and some tips.

But yeah, it was kind of muddy. It was kind of

weird. And she, I don't even remember what she

was thinking with some of her layers in the Photoshop

files. Like this just tells you how good friends

we are that I just flat out went and told her

one day, I'm like, um, um, your colors kind of

suck. Can I do your colors for you? Unless she

got suckered into doing all the hard work. She

says suckered, but I suckered her into giving

me like 300 bucks to do her first chapter because

she wanted it done in a month. Wow. Wow. At least

she can be honest, you know, honesty is a key

component to good friendship. So that's, that's

important. Well, and you really need that when

you're working on stories together, like if the

other person's just going to like, Oh yeah, your

story is great. That's fine. Yeah. Like if you

get that kind of input all the time, there's

no point in Talking shop like you're not getting

anything useful out of that. Yeah Definitely

Greg and Chuck tell me I suck all the time Yeah,

your questioning is starting to suck Dan. So

I'm gonna fill in is there any that any of the

24 -hour comics that are black and white are

just gonna come out later as a color like I'll

probably keep them black and white honestly,

but I do intend to go back and make them prettier

make them prettier as Not changing any storylines,

but just changing like little mistakes here and

there. Yeah. Part of it is, you know, keeping

those in black and white, we actually do those

as like super cheap mini comic prints when we

go to conventions. They're like the two buck

chuck of our comic books. Keeping them really

stark black and white means that we can actually

get them printed at like a Kinkos, a Xerox, you

know, best value copy one of those like cheap.

photocopy places and they still look good and

we can get them done like double -sided print

through a photocopying company and then we can

do the folding and the stapling ourselves and

we can actually make a profit off selling them

for like three bucks a pop. The other really

cool thing about the cat comic is I started pitching

that as not just a fun little comic about my

cats but I've also pitched it as a coloring book

for kids and that has gone over really really

well. That is that is actually a great idea.

You know what I can pitch that to my wife because

she's it like I said She's a teacher. So they're

always looking for things to color. So Yeah,

she is always coloring something. She's always

there with Crayola crayons and just going to

town Yeah, and teaching me how to color cuz one

of these days I'll stay in the line And when

you say 24 -hour comic so that means the like

you just buck her down and for one day you Make

that comic from start to finish. Is that? Yes

Wow, if you're really taking the competition

seriously, you're not supposed to have Any of

the art any of the storyline anything worked

out before the cat the timer starts And this

was actually a concept started by Scott McLeod.

There's like an official website It's done on

a specific date every year if you're really gung

-ho about being part of the official competition

Wow, so Within that cup do you then submit your

the comic you made to that competition or is

it more of like a like a friendly competition?

It's like an honorable mention kind of thing.

Like you get on Pat on the back. Hooray. You

did it Yeah, no no cash prizes no nothing But

that's interesting. So you say when you go into

that you're just it's more of a like a brainstorm

at that moment trying to figure it out and then

You know going in with that with a blank slate

and yeah, you can think of it as a Nana Remo

type project for comics with a tighter deadline

Okay, it's like it's like when runners run marathons

like you don't hear of many marathons that actually

have like prizes for the people that get first

but people still run their hearts out because

you know, they're in it for themselves and to

show people they can run really fast well, it's

the same thing with the 24 -hour comic it's partially

just an exercise like You you can't overthink

while you're working on it. You're just making

comics like it's a creative rush experience kind

of and the other part is that you know, if you

do complete it, it's really cool because you're

like Hell yeah, I finished this I made a comic

in a day and people can read it and it's done

Have you ever within that process like maybe

started an idea and then went a different direction

but then picked up that same idea? and maybe

expanded upon it further in a larger format?

Not as of yet, but the last 24 -hour comic I

did, did definitely take a very different turn

from what I originally intended. So how often

do you, uh, do you, is that like a once a year

tradition or is that just kind of random, randomly

happens? Annual. So I noticed too with like Chuck,

Greg, and I, We all come from like the world

of superhero comics. So well, I am uh, and I

think chuck and we all trying to expand our horizons

beyond that beyond the superheroes and uh, what

and one thing I noticed just um crystal we talked

about coloring and One thing that just struck

out my mind with a lot of the coloring you use

is that it reminds me a great deal of just with

the like the brightness of it and especially

with jacosha is that it not necessarily in style,

but just in like the Like how it yeah the color

power. There you go. I told you I'm artistic

It is fun to listen to you try and talk about

this kind of stuff though, Dan. Yeah And remind

me of a lot of a comic book I recently started

that I love which was soggy cuz just oh my god

Bright and scary and just like how it just I

just immediately stood out to me So you're also

a fan, I'm assuming. Yes, oh my gosh. Both in

story and the art, I really, really like Saga.

Gosh. Is that the type of comic that you... I

noticed with your stories... Well, you all, I

mean, I should say that you have a variety of

different stories, not just one, but with...

There seems to be more of like a adventure type

of feel to them. Is that kind of what you see

yourself gravitating towards? Oh, I do. Okay,

so let me... Clarified she started out asking

what color and now you're asking about story

So are you are you saying are you asking if I

gravitate towards a certain color palette or

a certain type of story? you know, I was saying

like the I was saying that the color of it really

reminds me of the Uppy adventure of something

of like saga just because it can kind of grabs

you So the colors that you're using in one type

of process you go through and choosing what how

you want your comic to look You know, it's a

little different for each comic like jacosha

Em came to me with a specific concept, and she

actually does the flat colors for her comics,

so she gets a lot of sway in picking what the

sort of colors are for all of the objects. That

being said, I tend to overrule her all the time

in changing what the atmospheric colors are in

a given scene, because I really love to give

each scene, not even like a whole chapter, but

like bit by bit, I like to give it like a specific

sort of a lighting effect in that scene. like

when there's a sunset, there'll be like really

warm colors cast over people and really like

warm shadows with a hint of purple, like pinks

and purples going on with like golden light.

And M came to me initially for the entire comic

and said she wanted to do like a Wizard of Oz

thing, which is why chapter one starts out in

like completely black and white. And then J 'Kosha

is just this like shock of color because We really

wanted it to be like night and day like the real

world is boring and jacosha is crazy That was

actually going to be my next question because

I was um to emily with regarding that because

I did I did feel that way i'm like I just with

the the black and white and just that opening

shot of that of that land which was was You know,

it's just it reminded me very much of that or

even something like uh You're going through the

wardrobe and like Narnia just that open scope

of a new world that you kind of just like Wow,

here it is and so I was curious if that was that

was the intention there Absolutely. Yep flat

-out entirely the intention If that's how you

felt then you got it Wow, I I did something right

today. I appreciate that I can write that down

To let me get one more thing in so like that

was what M gave me as a startup for jikosha And

I I get a lot of play in there like during the

battle scene, and I think it's chapter three,

when Nifty and Koala are sparring, like I went

to town with giving the whole thing like a really

orangey sunset cast, and I even like kind of

winged it with a lot of the cloud backgrounds.

Em can attest that I like clouds way too much,

which is great because my other comic Skyborne

that I'm working on is all about like an entire

colony of people that live in the sky. So I get

lots of chances to draw clouds and have people

talking about, like, the weather and clouds and

flying and stuff. And when I went to Skyborne,

like, I've got a completely different thing I

started out with, which is that that one's based

off Medieval Europe, and I wanted to give the

color palette a much, much more subdued tone.

It still ends up way too bright sometimes, but

that's partially just my coloring style. And

then it hasn't come in too much, but when magic

starts to play a part in that story, the magic

is super saturated so that it's really easy to

tell apart from like normal mundane things that

are happening. Interesting, interesting. I feel

like I am like... Becoming more artistic and

literate just literate. I should say just the

hearing you talk. So I do appreciate that So

Emily kind of getting back to what we were talking

about with the adventure story So you mentioned

that is something that you gravitate towards

your your fan of the adventure tale and and especially

you mentioned like Wizard of Oz and things of

that nature Oh, yeah, most most definitely Are

there any specific influences beyond that of

Wizard of Oz that you feel like kind of influenced

the work that you do? There are a lot of animes

that I watched growing up that really have influenced

my storytelling style. Like I drew a lot from

Magic Night Rayearth and the mysterious play.

More recently, I've been drawing from Saga, of

course, Rat Queens, any like high fantasy, high

adventure stories. Very interesting. I feel like

I'm a part of this club down under I've heard

people talk about saga now I can actually partake

in that conversation We had a we had a homework

episode a few episodes ago and basically the

purpose of that was to kind of Give people the

opportunity like we gave each other assignments

the assignment Greg gave me was that of saga

So I and I and I loved it and so it I've been

kind of Absorbing that type of comic and kind

of getting beyond the superhero Row which I still

enjoy I'm not gonna lie. I do you I know I noticed

like that's not necessarily some comics that

you draw But it do you I'd all enjoy the superhero

stories as well Are you more so into the you

know, like you mentioned anime and things that

are in the role -playing and I don't read superhero

comics as much as I used to I didn't really get

into American comics in general until I hit college

I've yeah You need to pick up a few superhero

comics more recently mostly stuff like kelly

suda comic and gail simone are working on because

I idolize them Um, but I definitely gravitate

more towards independent stuff. Yeah I I see

I I find myself doing that first is my my love

first and foremost is movies and use mostly independent

films and I think I kind of got uh washed out

with superhero comics but got back in with some

of the more independence things seeing the cool

like ideas that people are having outside of

the norm And I mentioned at the beginning of

the podcast that I learned about your studio

and what you do based upon the square city comics

anthology, which the way I describe it, it's

like a almost like a movie trailer for comics

or independent comics or like a. like a film

festival or a comic festival within one comic

because it's a combination of a bunch of different

independent stories all in one book or now two

books, I believe. Can you kind of go into what

Square City Comics is and like how you got involved

in that project? Sure. Square City Comics is

a DC based collective of independent cartoonists.

I came into the group basically when it started

in 2010, I think. Was it really that early? Yeah,

it really was. I got invited by one of my other

friends, Scott Kaptur. It started out just being

like four to six of us who would meet once a

month to talk about our projects. We started

doing shows together, started getting more people

involved, and now we've got over 100 members

based in the Baltimore, Northern Virginia, D

.C. area. And it's just, it's really just a club

of people who like to create comics. We talk

about our projects, we collaborate on things,

and we just help each other out. That's very

interesting. So have you, um, you mentioned,

like, that's like you, you help collaborate.

Wow, I cannot say that word. You work with each

other to create comics. Have you had, um, have

other members of Squar City Comics in that, in

that group have helped you out with other comics

that you've been currently working on? Uh, they

haven't. Really had any involvement in the projects

I'm currently working on, but I'm about to team

up with one of our other members for our next

anthology project and I'm working on other project

with one of the other founding members. So very

interesting and I was. I know there's like online

comics in this type of form has becoming more

and more popular. What is it like being in that

situation where you guys are talking about doing

a 24 -hour comics, getting hours of sleep, very

little hours of sleep doing your work. What is

the climate? Like right now for independent comics

you feel like it is Opening and welcoming and

you you mentioned with square city that you guys

work with each other Do you find that's kind

of the universal feeling for those people or

is it still like rather competitive and? Like

hard to kind of get noticed in that field. I

think I'd like to actually clarify something

which is that I mean Technically a web comic

and an independent comic and the square city

comics group. They're not all the same thing

I mean, there's people that do that are at square

city comics that do that have actually done projects

or work for the mainstream studios. And there

are webcomics that are actually being put out

by larger studios and larger creators. And vice

versa, you could be an independent creator and

not have a webcomic. Yeah, I just actually, last

few weeks, I talked about The Private Eye from

Bry King Vaughn, his online only comic that is

available through his, the panel syndicate, I

believe. Yeah, I believe Scott McCloud even had

one comic that he entirely published through

the web. So maybe I should clarify my question

just regarding that of independent comics there

and trying to get and get noticed and get people

to You know kind of buy into what you're doing.

I think it's absolutely Welcoming I as far as

getting your product out there and getting noticed

I it's kind of hard to say but I have come across

nothing but open arms from other independent

creators and super welcoming from other creators,

super cold, desolate void for readership sometimes.

It's really tough, especially if you're not a

trained marketer and you're not a viral marketing

guru and you're not already a really well -known,

popular personality. And if you're not a super

people person, I might come off deceptively talking

over the internet, but I am terrible at the sales

pitch. I am Terrible at this whole networking

thing. I'm still not sure what the hell that

buzzword means really And you can put that on

the business card so that way they're like, oh,

okay, I get it what he's doing here I said, but

yeah, I can I can understand that cuz Someone

who does podcasting and I think there are some

certainly similarities I am rather impressed

just the work you put in because I thought you

know editing a podcast or something But like,

you know the metal work you have to do for years

is rather impressive, but it's a similar Situation

where you know to give you some kudos me and

Emma have talked every now and then about doing

like a web tutorial series or like a like a video

tutorial series I mean or like a podcast or something

and every time we like Start to poke at the programs

to actually do the editing. We're like, this

is hard But yeah, it's similar to that. Like

you said, you could put all that stuff in and

you don't know if it's really getting to people

or, you know, the reaction to it. But, you know,

you do it because you enjoy it because we started

this because, um, Myself, I live in Baltimore

area and Greg and Chuck, they live in good old

Scranton, PA. So we were friends going in college.

So this is kind of our opportunity to just kind

of hang out virtually. So is that kind of similar

to what Wayward Studios, I feel like that's probably

something similar to what Wayward Studios is

to you too, because I know you're on the opposite

end of the globe. So that's gotta be a good way

to kind of continue your friendship in a way

that's beyond just, you know, the Facebook chat

here and there. Absolutely. I think we're only

a quarter of a globe apart, but that's still

a pretty big distance. Yes, true. Like a true

American, I forget there's countries outside

of our own. But no, yeah, me and Emma have literally

only met up in person twice since college, so

only twice in the last seven years. And one of

those was to debut our books at SPX, and the

other one was because Em was getting married.

I keep bragging her because she still hasn't

actually come out to Seattle to see me. I will.

She's on the hook for the next visit, but she's

still got lots of money to pay off from her wedding.

I can relate to that. So Emily, originally you're

in the Baltimore area, correct? Yep. All right.

So are you originally, are you from here and

moved to, is that kind of where your home base

has always been? No, I actually, so I was born

in Minnesota and then my family moved out to

Colorado when I was a kid. So I went to college

in Gunnison, which is about 200 miles away from

Denver, which is where Chris and I met. Okay.

Yeah, and I I was actually born in Seattle went

to Germany went to Arkansas and then to Colorado

because my dad was in the army and Then I was

in Colorado for about 15 years before college

and then I went up to Gunny and met em where

we both were getting graphic design degrees Very

nice. Wow. I feel very untraveled because I lived

in Scranton and moved to Baltimore and that's

my story so Guys have been all over so what so

uh Way back when you guys were mentioning with

a lot of these comics that you have been working

on them since high school that you know, they've

been stuff with you that ideas that have been

with you to are within the characters that you're

creating. Do you see yourself in any of them?

Or like, do you feel like your personality is

coming through for some of them? Or is it more

of a removal experience where you're kind of

seeing the eyes through someone else when when

making that character? It used to be that I was

the characters were basically another version

of me, and my voice came through personally through

a lot of them. I've since removed myself a bit

more, but each character has a voice I have within

myself, if that makes sense. Yeah, I definitely,

I can understand that. It's the same thing. Oh,

sorry. No, go ahead. I was gonna ask if it's

the same thing for you, or what your process

is like. It's definitely really similar, and

I feel like the longer I'm working with a character,

the more I can kind of distance them from myself.

But then it is kind of like having multiple personality

syndrome. It's like all the little voices in

my head, but they're separate characters. That

being said, a couple of my stories, there is

flat out the character that's like, this is me,

but with magical powers, or this is me, but if

I was even more obnoxious as a teenager. Mei

from Aspect is flat out like me if I had magical

tinker powers. And Leandra from Skyborne actually

is based a lot around a lot of my own anxiety

issues and stuff. So I could understand how the

the previous experience with role -playing must

really carry into that if it's since you've kind

of you know Done something similar. Oh god. Yeah

So the abstract way, yeah role -playing games

are great in one sense for character building,

which is that You know you have this system.

Yeah, it's too much math and hate math then you

know, it might seem daunting or silly Me, I'm

actually kind of a mathner. So I loved it. But

it gives you that experience of like, okay, this

character has flaws and they have traits and

they can't all have positive attributes. They

also have negative attributes. And like, you

know, it gives you that experience of like keeping

this idea of like all the traits of a character

in your head and imagining how they would like

react to various situations. If you've got a

good DM, that's one of the great things in role

playing is that it's not just like roll a d20

to see if you get poisoned. It's also stuff like,

this character just asked if they could sleep

with you. What is your character's response?

Yes. And if you have a good DM and you're in

a good situation that's more story -driven, then

you get to make decisions like that and you can

option to play off things. Sometimes some of

the most hilarious stuff is if a character is

promiscuous or isn't promiscuous or like... is

in a situation where they're a character that

takes advantage of people more or doesn't, you

know? And it also teaches you about, like, letting

other people... Like, because you're with other

human beings who also have characters that they

have agendas for, it also teaches you a little

bit about, like, group dynamics. That, you know,

some of the worst experiences are when everybody's

trying to go after their own Gauls, and they're

going in five different directions, and meanwhile

the dragon's eating people. Yeah, I can see that's

like a situation where you kind of have to put

yourself out of your norm and kind of think differently

than, you know, kind of open up your mind a little

bit compared to just like your, you know, the

way you normally process things. Yeah, that's

that's one of the hardest things for me writing

characters is when I have to write a character

that couldn't figure something out that I can

figure out or can figure something out that I

can't. Like, I'm a complete social How would

I put it? Like, socially inept? Like, politics

make no sense to me in the microcosm. I understand

the big stuff, like money goes in the economy,

money leaves the economy, bad stuff happens,

wars. But when it comes to like, office politics,

like the interpersonal communication between

human beings, I can offend someone without even

trying, and they can offend me without trying

and... Never seemed to be able to get my way

in a group of people that I can't just flat -out

yell that So like to try and write a character

that is savvy is really difficult for me because

I have no So how do you how do you kind of overcome

that ask other people sometimes? That's a good

that's a good spot to have a partner to go to

when it comes to coming up with ideas So our

Emily, do you find yourself being being the person

to tell her how to and in a normal situation?

This is how someone would act. Is that is that

kind of what you see yourself doing with with

your storytelling? Oh, yeah We do this with each

other Yeah, a lot of writers actually fall into

that exact problem, not even like socially inept

writers like me, that it sounds great in your

head and then you read it out loud to someone

else or they read your comic and they're like,

why the hell would this person be asking for

ice cream right now? They just got hit by a car.

What's going on here? Like sometimes that's an

extreme silly example that's not even from any

story I've written. Gosh, Em had a scene the

other day that like she had a character and she

was trying to hide something from the character

and make the character like miss some of the

things that were happening and she kind of overdid

it and It didn't it sounded fine when she wrote

it. But when she read it off to me, I'm like,

okay, she's not Barbie She's not that dumb. You

got to tone it back and she's done that to me

where I had characters that were just Like too

far off one end or the other and you know, she

had to kind of put it in perspective for me That's

the greatest part of having a co -conspirator

is having that, that, that sort of echo change.

Sounding board. Sounding board. There you go.

That's the word I was thinking for. Interesting.

Yeah. Have there been moments in which you feel

like you both have disagreed and maybe you weren't

and basically you're like, all right, I don't

care what you say. I'm going to, I'm going to

do it this way. Or do you feel like you're always

able to come to that compromise or figure out,

you know, the way that you both will be satisfied

with the solution? There have been plenty of

times where we just had to ignore the other person.

I don't think there's any time that we've, like,

completely wholeheartedly flat out ignored them,

though. I think we've gotten to a point that,

like... There's usually some kind of compromise,

but... Yeah. Could see that I mean so I do like

movie reviews which are nothing compared to that

because it's easy because I'm just Reacting towards

something else, but Greg I don't know if you've

ever had the opportunity But he we do this little

radio skit thing on here called the unknown and

Greg comes up with it because he fancies himself

a writer as well You could probably relate to

that when it comes to creating characters and

storytelling. You don't have to have grammar

to do good writing. I mean, look at all the money

that I can has cheeseburgers made. That's true.

Except I have to the characters that I've been

trying to write for it are at least semi -intelligent

as opposed to the one character. I just had him

freaking out the entire time and just yelling

stuff for. Kind of like I am Groot, but not repeating

the same phrase and just doing grunts and stuff

But I have tried to write and it's it's it's

hard to keep in your mind, especially if you

were taking Vacations or just have time in between

where you don't have to do it and trying to get

back into each character's frame of mind and

remembering what you wrote last and trying to

trying to keep the continuity the same and not

try to mess stuff up like that. Yeah, I actually

get exactly what you're talking about. So during

college, I worked on a comic, and when I moved

out of college, my hard drive died, completely

died, took my entire senior project with me,

which was the latest version of Aspect that I

had done before college. I got so pissed off

that I had lost two chapters worth of pages that

I just kind of scrapped it and gave up. I was

tired of it. I didn't have any more ideas. And

about six months later, I got hit really suddenly.

But with inspiration for this story that I ended

up calling Lannox Journey, I ended up writing

out an entire like 300 page and by 300 pages,

I mean eight and a half by 11 at 12 point bond.

way too long. 300 pages over the next nine months.

And there were times it was really tough to pick

it up if I had taken a week off because I would

look back at the chapter and I couldn't remember

where I was at or why the character was in the

position she was in or what the final goal of

the story I was working on was even anymore.

It's really tough to keep your macro goals of

a longer story in mind and your smaller goals

at the same time. like, keeping the chapter interesting

while still working towards whatever that last

chapter that you had in mind was, and making

the pieces line up from A to Z when you still

have to figure out how to get to N in the middle

there somewhere. And that's probably the hardest

part of working on a comic, because the entire

process is slowed down by, like, tenfold. I try

not to think about the fact that, like, if I

stay at my current pace, Skyborne will be done

sometime a decade from now. With Skyborne or

Jacocha, do you all have the idea of where you

want the story to go? And you're just trying

to get there, or are you still kind of on that

path of figuring out, you know, where this exactly

will be, and you're kind of just letting it naturally

evolve? I know where Jacocha's going. Have my

hand in mine, I just have to get there. It's

kind of like Lord of the Rings, like The Hobbit

has the ring. Mount Doom is off somewhere in

the distance. You know that at some point ring

will meet lava. uh and in between is a lot of

walking and random occurrences and that's kind

of how my skyborne script is is that i have all

of it really loosely scripted out like there's

important points that have to happen but the

in between like the all the entire dialogue word

for word is not written out i have notations

like they got on a boat they fly through the

sky they have to hit this city they have to do

this this has to happen they have to have a fight

about this So like you mentioned, it's more the

macro, it's the micro that you're still working

with, more the minutia of the fun process. Well,

and you have to kind of leave yourself something

interesting to do. I was at one point thinking

I had to write the entire script out, and I was

getting so bogged down by trying to work out

all of the details of the entire six -book script

that I wasn't interested in actually working

on the pages anymore, and so it was just killing

me. So I finally was like, screw it, I have to

throw my hands up and... you know, not work too

far ahead or I'm just gonna get completely bored

of working off my own script. Then I just become

my own manager for the next ten years, you know?

I kind of have that issue as well with trying

to write something longer. There's certain, like,

what kind of tips do you have for people that,

like, are trying to write and then they keep

getting bogged down in different things? Is it

just take a break or...? So if you're talking

about just explicitly writing... What I did on

Lanx Journey was I basically made a document

for any of the chapters I had worked out and

I skipped ahead. If I was stuck on this chapter

but I had a good idea for another chapter, I'd

work on the next chapter. For me, that works

because I'm a much more fluid, creative personality.

I've talked to some people who are really successful

in creative endeavors, and they have the opposite

thing, that they just have to force themselves

through it. And sometimes I do have to, and that's

part of actually why me and Em publish as a webcomic,

is that having that deadline, even though it's

artificial, like no one's gonna dock our pay,

no one's gonna yell at us if we miss a page update.

We have gotten frowny faces of people that leave

us passive -aggressive comments like, darn, I

wish this comic updated on time. We're lucky

that we do not have super evil troll commenters

that like our comic. We're really lucky in that

case because there are some comics that do get

that and other, you know, creative things on

the web. YouTube is, you know, the most notorious

for it. Oh, geez, yeah. You can get a... You

can get a video of just like being cute and you're

gonna have like the most vicious remarks underneath

it And the most creepy like people will be like

man, I hope that kitten rapes you and you're

like what? But what I'm trying to say is having

Having little goals for yourself. It is a nice

way of being yourself in check So if you are

doing a novella, you could be like, I'm going

to post a chapter once a week on the site, and

it'll be public, and people can read it. So there's

proof that it exists, and there's proof that

I'm staying on track. But if I miss a week, I

don't get a scoop of Nutella ice cream. It's

not the worst thing in the world. Then I always,

if I do something like that, I feel like I'm

going to screw myself over. Like I'm trying to

set up something big and I accidentally let something

leak out in that part, like that I've already

posted. And then, like, I'm down the line, I'm

like, I already let that leak, that's a big,

huge thing, and now how do I fix it now? Um,

so you're saying, like, you're worried that you

might, like, post something inflammatory and

not be able to take it back? Or, like, oh crap,

I posted chapter 17 and I meant to post chapter

12. Well, that could be an issue if I'm really

because in that case you just like pull it back

off the internet and go Oh, it's an Easter egg.

You guys got to see it early. Aren't you glad?

website, but all those people that don't check

it like immediately at midnight, you didn't get

to see it Teehee Like I can grab a video guys.

Look it here. It is again. Thank you commenter.

Appreciate that Like stuff like that and then

like just like another continuity issue going

on of getting too far ahead of yourself and putting

yourself in a corner like I have probably done

a couple times trying to write Unknown. Well,

and that's one thing that we worry about sometimes

with comics. That's sort of the nature of bad

writing in comics is because like, if you did

something in chapter one, And then chapter five,

you really wish you hadn't like, oh, the character

had their power stone stolen. But I really wish

she had it right here, because I don't know how

to get her out of this endless pit that she fell

into. Yeah, exactly. Why did I write her falling

into an endless pit? This was a terrible idea.

But now it's drawn. So now it's not only in writing,

it's been drawn, it's been colored. You know,

I got to find a way out of this pit. So that's

why you end up with those like bad 50s serials,

bad comics writing is because, you know, it's

literally set in stone, or at least it's set

in a printing plate, you know, so there ain't

no going back. But that's one of the joys of

the internet, is it's not set in stone, it's

set in pixels at the very worst, so you can go

back and fix it. You can always post a comment,

be like, hey guys, you know... I know it might

seem like a cop -out that I'm changing chapter

one so that she doesn't get the power stone stolen,

but it's gonna work out a lot better and she's

not gonna fall into an infinite pit and I think

you're really gonna like this writing in chapter

12, but go back and read chapter one again or

you won't know why she has this. I've seen comic

artists do that and, you know, it's something

you're giving to people for free. It's a fluid

thing that's a work in progress, which is probably

why the whole web to Kickstarter thing has been

so successful for comics. Because you know people

I think understand that most webcomics are meant

to be like the preliminary stage like they're

not the end result there There's something that

you're sharing with people in order to spread

the word and get feedback But do you feel like

that takes people out of the story if you do

something like that? Maybe a little bit, but

I mean I think people's Cause what you're talking

about is, uh, gosh, what do they call it? Um,

you know, the fourth wall, the plausible deniability.

Oh gosh, what is it? I'm trying to think of a

word. It's like the experience that like, uh,

suspension of disbelief. Okay. I think people's

suspension of disbelief is a lot more. It's,

it's usually a lot more. Oh God, I'm missing

my words tonight. Forgiving? Forgiving. Oh, that's

a good word. That's not what I was looking for,

but that fits. yeah i think it's a lot more forgiving

than you might think it is and i mean the second

you've got someone reading a comic on the internet

like they're clicking buttons they're looking

at ads and things like from what i've seen of

the internet usually the more they get hints

that like their creator exists usually the more

they like the project yeah the more involved

they feel the more contact they have with you

Yeah, we kind of do that with comments and stuff

with the with the podcast We get a lot of comments

and I feel like the more we participate the more

people we have kind of listening in Yeah Do you

feel as people like you mentioned? you know being

the forgiveness and kind of being part of that

process and realizing that sometimes you can

write yourself in the corner as as in those that

like You mentioned that you're a reader of comics

when you're more on the fan side Are you then

more forgiving of that of people who are creating

comics because you realize okay? I can understand

You know the diff or appreciate the difficulty

in making something that is great because you

have the experience of trying it yourself Well,

I guess I have I find in some ways. I'm more

forgiving Uh, and in other ways i'm less like

I find Over time like I start to drop like comics

that are written or drawn more poorly off my

list Like the better I become as a writer and

artist, the less I'm able to tolerate really

bad writing and really bad art. Especially when

it doesn't improve over time. There's comics

I've flat out dropped just because I got sick

of the writer falling into the same really poor

tropes or like an artist that just is still doing

really ugly artwork constantly. What probably

feel he's a he's a notoriously bad comic book

artist let's not draw the shoulders that look

like you know It's gigantic and really tiny heads

is like everyone looked like a negative bobblehead.

It was You're familiar with the Escher girls

go look them up and you'll find lots of leads

out there So so Emily is that similar for you

that you mentioned that you are more forgiving

based upon your experience creating common I'm

more forgiving of people who go back and fix

things, but I still if I'm six or seven chapters

in Like Crystal said, if the art hasn't improved

or the story has not really moved anywhere, forget

it, I'm done. So regarding that improvement,

do you feel like throughout this process, you

yourself have evolved and become a better writer,

a better artist than you have been in the past?

I have definitely gotten a lot better at all

aspects of creating comics since Crystal and

I teamed up and since becoming a part of Square

C Comics. You know the biggest confidence booster?

looking at your old artwork. Yes. Oh my gosh.

My friend, my friend Ricky, the one who's doing

my flats, she was, she didn't know that I had

done a version of the comic in college. So I'm

like, Oh, I still have a copy of it in print.

Here, take a look at it. And I was looking over

her shoulder as she looked at it. And I was like,

cringing every other page. I'm just like, this

is so bad. And this was my college senior project.

This is terrible. And like I realized that at

the time I was super proud of that I remember

being Ridiculously proud of it and I could still

see positive aspects of it But at the same time

it was really kind of affirming that yes seven

years later. I did actually improve I might not

be constantly in college anymore, and I might

not have been like Like trying to improve, but

it was improved and so like I would recommend

that to any writer or artist or creative is keep

enough of your old work around to make you feel

better when you find it in the future. Don't

throw all of your crappy old drawings away, because

you'll want to bring them out so you can pat

yourself on the back for not sucking that hard

anymore. It's a very very good point good point

So do you feel like you'll be the same way if

you fast forward ten years from now? Ten years

now we're gonna look at our art now and think

God. What were we thinking? Yeah, I I don't remember

who said it but I there was a writer and a creative

person it was like a comic artist at one point

that says something about like you should never

plateau if you plateau and your stuff is as good

as it's gonna get then you're not gonna get any

better and you know, you're just Shooting yourself

in the foot. So like he basically said like I

hope to always look back at my older stuff and

think It you know and see the flaws in it because

he's getting better So you mentioned with your

current comics that you have you kind of know

where you want to go Do you do you have other

ideas and other? Comic ideas that you're kind

of waiting to start to get into that you're also

developing like is that something you feel like?

You're always gonna have something that you can

continue your your your project We both have

a folder that we refer to as the vault that is

just a plethora of ideas just Short things extensive

outlines. I want to point out that the vault

was my word and Yes, I stole it. Yes. It's a

google lock. In fact, um I have it shared with

Em so she can write comments and she can update

it if she feels like it. And it's just page after

page with an index at the top so I can find ideas

and I can do a digital search, like a Control

-F search of it. And it's helped sometimes. I

don't remember Em grabbed one idea out of there

the other day. I don't remember which, and she

ran with it. And I took one for the 24 -hour

comic. I've got one called Tecolache that I based

off of this idea that Emmett actually pointed

out to me about this creepy petrified lake in

Africa that we thought would make a good horror

comic. Interesting. Yes. I hope to bring that

one out sometime in the spring. That sounds fascinating.

But we're near our hour here, and I don't want

to take, you know, you said one more hour of

your four hours of sleep away. Oh, I'm not getting

four hours of sleep anymore. I'm much better

now. I actually had to go through therapy earlier

this year, and one of the things my therapist

baby started doing was actually getting a proper

night's sleep. So I have an alarm on my phone

now to make sure I don't go to bed at two in

the morning anymore. Geez. See, I am like 80

years old and I can barely get past 930 anymore.

I'm like, I'm itching towards my bed time right

now. I'm not going to lie. You know, I feel like...

Oh hey, you have to East Coast. I have to...

Forgive you guys because over here. It's like

630. I think you guys had a lot of great pointers

a lot of great ideas And if people want to get

in contact with you or get access to your stuff,

where can they go? You can find us on our main

website, which is wayward studios net We're also

on Facebook. It's wayward studios comics. We

have a Twitter which is just that waiters wayward

studios We also have a Google Plus page, which

I think is Wayward Studios net. If you just Google

search Wayward Studios, Google Plus, you'll find

us. See, you're a lot better at that networking

than you let on. Except what you didn't hear

from that is that we're like terrible about actually

posting. I think our last Google Plus post was

a year ago. Oh, we have a Tumblr. That's right,

we have a Tumblr now. We have individual Tumblrs

too, and we each have individual DeviantArt pages

too. Great and I would all do too is I will put

all Access to links to all your stuff online

because you you can even buy your comics online

as well That's correct. You have a store friend

a store in the storefront which you can just

find through the waiver studios website There's

links all over the place to it through the various

sub comics and like I said I would definitely

recommend checking out their stuff because I

I read it I was appreciated as I'm like I would

really like to talk to these people and figure

out how they come up with this stuff because

I couldn't imagine doing it, but I would really

like to thank you guys for coming on. I really

appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed your time.

Definitely have you on some other time, but I

wish you the best of luck with everything that

you all do. Same to you. Thanks for having us.

Thanks. This was great. Thanks, guys. Thanks.

Or ladies. Yes, we have. What is this? This is

weird. You should, you know, you should fix that

because actually from what I've seen is webcomics

are a lot more gender neutral than mainstream

comics are. Like if you threw a dart at a webcomic

artist, there's like a two in one, a one in,

ah, a one out of two chance that it's a girl

that you hit about a guy. So that's one of the

great things about them that you didn't even

come up with. is the fact that, like, the internet

means that you don't have to deal with, you know,

the boy -centric monopoly that is most of the

mainstream comics. I actually meant to comment

on you guys way earlier when we were talking

about superhero comics, is that I really find

it sad that people think that superhero comics

is a genre. Like, it's sort of a subgenre? And

the fact that people think superhero comics need

to be this separate thing from other stories.

Like, I would hope that anyone would just read

good stories. That they read romance and action

and horror and adventure and spy stories and

slice of life and autobiographical stuff. That

they would really just open themselves up to

all sorts of stories from all sorts of creators

and that comics can tell any kind of story if

the artist and the writer are up to the task

of that given story. Albin, I've been an ignorant

person towards that for a very long time, but

I am just recently in the last few years kind

of seeing, just like you said, the power of comics

is just like any other artistic medium where

you can kind of really attack anything, go after

any type of idea, whether it be, you know, even

a social political idea or if it's more, you

know, fanatical or fantasy. So you're very right.

I mean, it's true. sometimes when you say the

word comic you either think the Sunday comics

that you get in a newspaper back when those existed

and or the You know the superhero stuff but clearly

like, you know stuff like that you all put out

and you know You've likely mentioned things like

saga or all their independent comics like that

There is clearly an unlimited tap to be reached

there. So that's very true Yeah, but yeah, anyways

truly appreciate you going on and like I mentioned

check out their stuff. It's great Do it it's

free too, or you can also support them, which

is also great and support Independent comic artists

or independent artists. I think that's those

are the focus that we should definitely be going

towards because you know Marvel and dc they have

enough money, you know It's people like where

we're studios. That's that's the people that

you should be supporting Well, wish you all the

best of luck. And I again, thanks for coming

on. I hope our questions weren't were too bad

I do know this was a lot of fun. I really appreciate

you guys having us on Appreciate it. Oh, we'll

talk to you. All right. Thanks ladies. See you

guys So that is it for us for this week We'll

be back next week same time same channel same

podcast feed But for now, we've been talking

in circles and we'll see you next week