Top 5 Comic Book Character Rivalries

Hello, discerning podcast listeners. This is

Tom Kenny, and you are listening to the Geekcast

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connected in a great circle of life. You know

something, Bert? I think you and I are going

in circles. It feels like we're going in circles.

The circuit is now complete. When I left you,

I was about to learn you. Now I am the master.

Because it's a circle. Yeah, we heard about the

circle. Yeah, I swear. I believe it changed.

Hi, this is Greg. And this is Chuck. And this

is Dan, and we are Talking in Circles, brought

to you by the ECAS, or Radio Network. That's

all about the best rivalries in comics because

today we are doing another one of our top fives

as we count down our top five favorite comic

book character Rivalries, but before we get to

that. How's the week been going for you guys?

My week was I guess kind of boring. I don't know

nothing really Exciting happened. Oh, you gotta

tell the permany brothers story What permany

brothers story? You know, the Primanti Brothers

story of the guy. How we waited for an hour outside.

No, no, no. The dude, the guy that brought over

the food. I almost forgot about that. That's

right. So, yeah, when we did when we did the

last time we were all together, I guess, Dan

was in town and we went to this new place, Primanti

Brothers, that. was made famous in Pittsburgh,

sort of famous for putting french fries and coleslaw

on their sandwiches and kind of jamming everything

in there. So definitely sounds like our kind

of place. So we go and it was like, the place

has only been open like two weeks, so it's like

crowded every single night. So we go there and

we wait like an hour to get a table and we finally

get in there and order our food and everything.

And we're waiting like what would you say 20

minutes maybe? Something like that probably around

that if not a little bit more yeah, and I think

someone had brought you another drink Dan and

then like a second guy comes over and he has

like three plates of food and he's like whispering

to the dude that brought you the drink and the

guy's like I don't know it's not my table and

so the guy's like he looks so confused and the

first guy walked away and the guy holding the

food walks up to the table and he's like um how

long ago did you guys order Say do you think

do you think that your food would be ready by

now? As if we're being tested it's like If you

get it wrong, you don't get your food. It's like

nope. It wouldn't be this is for you like And

we're all like Maybe I guess and I'm like, okay.

Well, what what dishes do you have? Let's just

What things do you have? And he's like, oh, well,

you know, I have this burger and I have this

sandwich and the sandwich. And we're all like,

yep, that's what we ordered. Oh, great. Don't

know why he didn't open with that. Like, right.

He's off with that, like instead of you think

it would be. So then, like every time the guy

walked by our table, like Greg would start cracking

up because he could see him coming. And all we

can do is picture him like asking us more questions.

Oh, it's pretty hilarious. Is this about the

time you would be done eating food? I mean, what

exactly is that? Yeah. Do you think this would

be about how much your bill should be? Like when

you usually go out with three of you, is this

about what it is? Like, I don't know. Like, no,

it's usually like $20 cheaper. Do you guys usually

drink this many beers when you're out? Yes. And

by the way, I got Way too much flack for not

having a beer Yeah, which was like man all over

the place jeez Yeah, I was I was getting it from

both angles Which usually is a good thing, but

we gonna do right usually a good thing with attractive

waitresses pasturing me for not getting a beer

and I was like I don't really want to because

I'm not comfortable driving and Everything and

they're like, oh, that's what ubers for Yeah,

45 minute uber drive that's exactly what I want

And then leave my leave my car there Perfect

I feel like it's kind of been a week of people

not being able to do things correctly because

I've come to the determination that There are

very few people in the world, at least that I

drive near, that have any idea what to do when

you get to a four way stop. Like the amount of

people that seem to be super confused over the

proper order of how things go is insane to me.

So recently we had really bad like hailstorms

actually. We had this really horrible thunderstorms

that went through and it knocked out a few power

lines to a few, you know, a number of traffic

lights went out and Most people if you're smart

you what happens if you are at a four -way stop

where there's no traffic lights act like it's

a stop sign The amount of people who don't know

that's the thing you're supposed to do actually

heard someone at work today saying like you think

there would be like a law or a rule that what

would happen if the power went out and the street

lights weren't working and like there is And

uh when and also too when when I drive to work.

I found this is a great back way so I can I can

get around traffic which can be awful but part

of it is I drive near a school and there's a

four -way stop there and it's insane to me how

many people can't operate it. For some reason

a lot of people treat it like a red light in

the sense of I'm turning left and the person

behind me is turning right so they think that

means that they can just turn right like as if

it was a you know a red light and completely

screws up everything because then that I don't

then I get stuck there because technically it's

the other person's turn now because someone on

my side already went and it's just like this

conundrum of crappiness that occurs not to mention

that it's a crosswalk or not a crosswalk but

uh there's a cross guard there that stops traffic

at times for kids like they should but the amount

of people who don't realize that once they enter

a four -way stop everyone's supposed to stop

people like I've almost seen this cross guard

get hit like three or four times. I commend them

because the stupidity out there is insane. And

then yeah. And then the situation I run into

a lot of times is like where your leg of the

intersection is a little bit wider. So you're

stopped and then someone tries to sneak by you

on the right side and go their way. And. In doing

so, of course, you know, your vehicle is there

and you're stopped waiting for someone to go

and they try to go and almost cause an accident

or else they don't see a pedestrian and they

almost hit them. Like I've seen that happen so

many times and I'm just like freaking wait your

turn. Like this is not a two lane leg of the

intersection where you have your own turning

lane. OK, it's a single lane. You wait your turn.

Gosh. Patience is a virtue. Sorry, you got me

riled up there. Welcome to Traffic Cast with

Greg, you know. We need the helicopter sound.

Greg, though, I know you have been watching a

bunch. And one show I know that you caught up

with that I'm really curious about is iZombie.

So I've been wanting to watch it and catch it,

but I never have. So curious to hear if it's

actually worth checking out. Really interesting

show. It kind of starts off kind of slow and

kind of like a... almost typical for stroll except

the the lead actress is a zombie but she's not

one of those kind of like brainless zombies.

Apparently in this world, if you keep up on eating

brains, you actually retain your human intelligence.

And so she works at an ME. She used to be a doctor,

but to keep up with her brain eating habits,

she kind of transfers over being an ME. She kind

of breaks off with her fiance because of this

happening and she doesn't tell him that she's

a zombie. So like there's all that weird fun

stuff at the beginning and she's kind of eating

these people's brains. And when she eats the

people's brains, she kind of takes on their memories.

So she uses this to help solve crimes by helping

solve their murders and everything like that.

But it really, the show really doesn't pick up

until a little bit after halfway through the

season when the subplot becomes more of the issue.

throughout the story, which has to do with the

guy who... kind of caused the problem why she

is a zombie, and you find out more of how people

became a zombie, what happened. And not everybody

knows in the world that zombies are out there.

It's kind of, if you're a zombie, a few privileged

other people know about zombies, but it really

picks up in the second half when this subplot

comes through. But overall, it was a lot of fun.

I wouldn't say it's the most outstanding television,

but it was definitely very enjoyable. The cast

is great altogether. Rose McIver is really adorable

zombie. But yeah, I would definitely check it

out. It's on Netflix. So, yeah, you could check

it out there and catch up. But I think season

two is out currently. Never thought I'd hear

the phrase adorable zombie tonight. She she is

an adorable zombie. Look, look her up, Chuck.

Yeah. Now I see because it comes on usually like

right after flash, I think. And it's was it was

a flash or arrow. I forget one of them. It comes

on right after. And I usually see like the first

minute or two before I shut the TV off. Funny.

That's usually what happens when I watch Arrow.

But yeah, anymore. Speaking about zombies, actually,

this kind of fits in one thing I did. catch up

with it. This happened a few weeks ago, but one

thing that's still kind of still hurts a little

bit was the season finale of Walking Dead, which

Shuck, I know you caught up with as well. Yes,

I did. And I'll be super spoiler sensitive here,

because I know Greg, you're behind, so I don't

want to spoil anything for you. Well, you can

boot me off and tell me on Skype when you're

done. Yeah, but I still feel like, I don't know.

And we might not get Skype working again, so

let's not take the chance. Well, I would just

put off my earphones, and you'd just put it in.

We'll see. We'll see. I think we'll be fine.

I think you can talk without giving out specifics.

I don't even want to say Skype too loudly, to

be honest. I mean, there's a lot of talk about

this this episode going into this final season

I mean, I don't think it's boy looter because

it's been everywhere about Negan showing up or

what that might be and What that might lead to

I am someone who have read the comics So I kind

of know what happens when he shows up in episode

100. I'm so The question is becoming like does

that Occur into you know, people are wondering

what does that mean for the show and we thought

we just find out in this episode but kind of

doesn't seem to let's say there's no resolution

there and A great our truck. What did you what

did you think of the season finale of walking

dead? It was really exciting. It's definitely

tough to talk about it spoiler free. So I Guess

I'll just say my favorite part was when Right

as Rick is delivering Michonne's baby gets shot

in the head If you said Lauren Cohen gets naked

I would lose my mind over here Chuck But no seriously

it was I don't know I've been getting into a

little more lately because there's some people

at work that are more into it and we have like

usually our weekly discussions on like Monday

mornings and Tuesday mornings and stuff when

we talk about it and so the anticipation was

building, so to speak. And we were all really

excited about seeing this episode. And I, you

know, I kind of watch it with my family as well

and stuff. And it was it was definitely exciting.

Like it was suspenseful the whole way. And it

was sort of a frustrating episode the way things

kept happening. I won't give anything away, but

it was very, very sort of frustrating every step

of the way. And we finally get to end. I was

very disappointed in not finding out, you know,

what we all thought was going to be resolved.

You sort of are left on this. You thought it

would be a cliffhanger, even if you knew what

happened. But they leave you on an even bigger

cliffhanger because, you know, something happened,

but you don't know who it happened to. So now

you have to hang on for six months or whatever

it is, six or seven months and. It's like this

excruciating position you're in because like

you don't even know who this thing happened to

you don't know exactly what happened or how everyone

reacted to it and it's it was it was terrible

because it cut out like visually it cut out right

at this part, but you still heard like audio

going on and it was You know, I've seen that

happen in other shows and movies and stuff and

sometimes it's like really frustrating so it

was sort of a bittersweet episode because It

was a lot of high octane stuff, but it was also

very frustrating at the end Yeah, I feel like

this entire season has been frustrating for different

moments Like I've really which I don't I don't

get kind of this mood that this or this decision

the season went into where It started doing all

these kind of cheap tricks and cheap tactics

to make you think certain characters died or

got hurt And this is like the third time it did

this it did it with the infamous stunt dumpster

moment The episode before the last episode makes

you think a character dies and that was for no

reason whatsoever Because it didn't really seem

to do anything for them. It just seemed to like

go away So that was really cheap and that's kind

of the word that kind of hit my mind this season

was cheap like these just like these things that

aren't done for storytelling purposes are just

done to get attention and don't really lead to

anything and this was the perfect example like

it was like Legitimately this entire season was

leading up to this one moment and then it's like,

okay Well, we'll we're gonna extend that even

further like I I don't I find that frustrating

I don't find that great storytelling I don't

find that yeah, you have me wanting to watch

later, but it's for not a great reason like I

don't I don't know it seemed to me just to be

Either they don't know who they wanted to be

yet or they're just trying to like stretch this

out as much as possible, but I don't know. I

like the episode. Go ahead. Just saying I kind

of got the same feeling I do from arrow anymore,

which is this I'm just watching so I don't get

behind I'm not watching because I'm excited for

it Like I would be for flash or something like

that where I'm like super stoked about every

episode But it's like like the season of Walking

Dead was kind of like yeah, I don't want to get

behind So I have to watch it and see what happens

and then they'll be a good really good episode

I'm like, oh here we go. But if you actually

look at the season, yeah the amount of stuff

that happened There really isn't really much

that happens from where they started off and

where they ended. It was just, wow, that's an

entire story arc. I don't know. Yeah. And I think

logically some things didn't make sense either

too, because I'm like, okay, they've been in

this location for quite a while now, like really

the whole season. And like, how have they never

run into these people before? You know what I

mean? It's just kind of like. Yeah. Some leaps

there. I don't know. It's like suddenly everyone's

really close to one another before but whatever.

Yeah Yeah, there's some definite leaps there

that were kind of weird like in the in the past

seasons they were moving a lot and Well, even

the season with the prison like like everything

just made sense But the season was just weird

because it's like you're in this location for

so long Like how are you just finding out about

these certain things now? It was kind of weird

So let's say you're looking for a podcast of

your favorite 80s comic books, G .I. Joe, Transformers,

Ninja Turtles, He -Man, etc. Where are you going

to go to find this? Welcome to star Joe's podcast.

I'm your host Ryan and I'm Chuck. That's right

everybody We're the star Joe's we host a podcast

called star Joe's podcast Where we talk about

your favorite comic books your favorite toys

of all the 80s properties Star Wars GI Joe Transformers

mask Thundercats Voltron you name it. We covered

if it's in the 80s We will cover it at some point

Yeah, so what you want to do to find us, you

can go to iTunes, you can go to www .starjoes

.com, and remember, the force will be with you

because knowing us is half the battle. All right,

and welcome back. And yes, as mentioned previously,

we love our top fives here and we are doing another

one again this week. This time, our focus is

on our top five. favorite comic book character

rivalries. Again, that is quite a mouthful. Let's

start with the basics before we get into the

actual list, because there's a couple of different

ways of going at this. When you guys were making

your list, any ideas, any methods, what were

you thinking when you were putting your list

together? Checkmate, we'll start with you. Were

you thinking impact towards the genre of comic

books, more so personal favorites? What was your

style? I was mostly personal favorites, but...

I was kind of looking at things like situations

where there was two characters that were sort

of like true compliments of each other maybe

like you know if you want to say two sides of

the same coin type of thing I was looking at

those types of relationships and and seeing which

ones matched up with some of my favorite all

right Greg what about you how what did you look

for when you were coming up with your list Mine

wasn't really super complicated. I just kind

of came up with like my favorite characters who

their enemies kind of were that kind of thing

and Just kind of broke it down into a top five.

It was it was nothing too Interesting in my respect

of picking out and some of them were just no

-brainer kind of situations Yeah, I was around

the same wise ways when I came up with mine.

I did also try to getting rivalries where they're

Marvelry is different in the relationship to

the characters as trunk mention Chuck mentioned

sometimes, you know, maybe they're Too much the

same which is why they can't get along or there's

just moral enemies or something like that So

it should be fun. I think we'll probably have

a some crossover here for sure. But well, we'll

try to hit on a few Let's see how this goes.

But well Greg, why don't we start with you then?

Looking at your list, I don't know if you ranked

it or not, but what's number five? I was I never

really ranked him. No, no, no, you're not a rinker.

You're a lister. So what's first on your list

or last on your list or middle of this? Really?

You know, don't really know. It could be any

direction. That's that's pretty much it's it's

let's start off with one of my favorite characters

and that's Wolverine and one of his big arch

and enemies is saber tooth and what I love about

these two guys is that they're freaking almost

constantly going at it and their clashes are

just gruesome. There's blood flying everywhere,

especially if it's a little bit harder rated

comic book like in the Mac series or something.

But I don't think they ever did anything like

that in the Mac series with them. But still,

their fights are always toeing that line of getting

into a higher R rating kind of if comics had

that kind of rating system. They have had a long

history. This matchup goes through centuries.

It started with Wolverine and Sabertooth. when

they were kids and everything. So their origins

are even wrapped up kind of together, where they

started off from. And it's lasted centuries thanks

to their healing factor. and they totally hate

each other like every time you see them come

in contact with each other except for maybe when

they were little and they were kind of trying

to be friends and everything but every time they

come in contact with each other it's either one

or the other trying to start shit it's never

like oh hey how's it going or anything it's immediately

shit talk so they just totally hate each other

and i think one of the reasons that uh they do

hate each other so much is that Sabertooth is

what Wolverine fears in becoming. He fears becoming

this more savage, deadly, murderous beast that

Sabertooth is. Except for lately, they switched

him back over to be kind of a good guy at this

time, Sabertooth, while Wolverine's dead. You

know, I love that. You know when he's dead. I'll

come back later though. He's dead, but he's also

old and a woman. Yeah. weird. Another thing is

they share some characteristics together, like

they're essentially the same character. But in

where it counts, personality wise, they are completely

different, which also adds an interesting little

twist in there. So just these little things that

just switch over from one character to the other

make them either love each other or like brutally

hate each other. So I think in that respect,

it's kind of interesting. Yeah, that was probably

my first ever comic book character rivalry because

that, you know, going back to the X -Men 90 series

and seeing how much they hate each other then

and how that was represented. So I am right there

with you. I think it's certainly one of the most

iconic when it comes to comic books, especially

since the, you know, launch or the rebirth of

the X -Men in the 90s. So a lot of good points.

Anything, any insight or any thoughts on that

pairing of Wolverine and Sabretooth, Chuck? That's

definitely one of my favorites as well. I was

really hoping somebody mentioned that I don't

know what it is But Sabertooth kind of like one

of my favorite villains for some reason I and

I'm thinking that reasons probably weird for

you Chuck Yeah, like you're thinking man's kind

of like character like her Yeah, I think it has

a lot to do with the x -men animated series from

the 90s and everything because he was in quite

a few episodes of that and Even him and Wolverine

were always going back and forth there and as

much of a like as much of a kids show as that

was they still did a great job of depicting that

rivalry in that show you know even you look at

some of the episodes like where they were they're

trying to uh help saber tooth because he was

very badly injured and in this altercation or

something and uh xavier wants to help him but

then you know magneto shows up And, you know,

Xavier wants to send the X -Men out to battle

with him. And Wolverine's like, you know, how

come we get to trash your enemy, but we got to

be all nicey -nicey to mine? And, like, just,

like, it was... You could tell it was so fierce,

even in that cartoon. Like, you know, Wolverine

just hated him so much. There was quite a few

episodes where they tangled, and I think that's

where I really started to like Sabertooth. But,

yeah, I've always been intrigued by that rivalry.

Yeah, it's just it's just a pity they haven't

been able to really represent it on screen yet

all that well, unfortunately. Yeah Yeah, I mean

the abshriver was Okay, but I thought that left

still a little bit to be desired and some of

those fights like you didn't get that emotional

Pull of like why they hate each other really

part of it too I think is even the size having

saber tooth being this gigantic huge figure and

wolverine being the small little runt I mean

you really can't do that because like Hugh Jackman's

like 6 '8 or something, you know, he's a huge

dude. So it's going to hurt unless you get like

the big show or like Shaq to play Saber Tooth,

which let's be honest. Yeah, Fox has done worse.

But if you want a Saber Tooth that's really bad

at foul shots, then you go Shaq. My name is Saber

Tooth, I'm 7 '2, I play NBA. Yeah, starting off

well, starting off well with. saber tooth and

wolverine so let's move over over to you chuck

now who's number five on your list i'm gonna

start off my list with uh a dc rivalry um since

sorry just before so of course i have it not

the dc movie verse now this is comic so it's

okay it's gonna be okay is it zack sider versus

superman That is becoming quite the rivalry that

let me tell you or maybe Zack Snyder versus Superman

fans would be more active true But uh, I think

the rest of mine on my list are Marvel So I had

to sneak I had to sneak a DC and what one in

here And I don't want to go with like a super

obvious one. Like obviously everybody knows I

like Superman. I'm a big fan You can go Superman

Lex something like that. But the one I wanted

to talk about was a flash versus professor zoom

and Specifically, Eobard Thawne, I think. Basically,

Barry Allen Eobard Thawne is the rivalry. And

the reason I love that so much is I love, like,

speedster characters. I've always been a huge

Flash fan. And the fact that you have, like,

I consider Reverse Flash basically is greatest

enemy. I mean, he has a lot of rogues and stuff.

He has a lot of run -ins with Captain Cold and

Grodd and stuff like that. But for my money,

it's really Reverse Flash that's sort of his

arch nemesis. And when you have somebody that

can challenge you, like they can do the exact

thing you do, like pretty much just as good as

you can, that already has the makings for a great

rivalry. And that's usually rare because A lot

of rivalries are like opposite, you know, like

Superman and Lex Luthor, like Superman is overloaded

on all this power. He has so many different skill

sets. Lex Luthor is just an ordinary man, but

he's just super smart. So he has to figure out

really inventive ways to beat him. Even like

Batman and the Joker, Batman is... a detective,

he's calculated, he plans stuff out. Joker's

just chaotic and it's like whatever comes to

mind. But really like Barry Allen and Eobard

Thawne, like they're so close that Eobard Thawne

is from the future. He was a huge fan of The

Flash. That was like his hero kind of. And he's

from like centuries in the future. So in Central

City during that time. Everything was like a

tribute to the flash. There's statues all over

there's museums You know, they give tours every

day and stuff for the museum and he just grows

up like Loving the flash like that's his hero

He wants to be the flash and it's to the point

where he actually recreates the accident that

created the flash and gave him his powers and

So he uses the cosmic treadmill to travel back

in time with the dream of meeting his hero he

wants to meet Barry Allen. And that act of trying

to go back in time, the cosmic treadmill sort

of alters his mind and sort of drives him insane

and kind of shifts him from being the person

that he was to more like a little bit more evil

and diabolical sort of thing. He sort of, he

also sort of learns his fate that he's meant

to die. You know, if he continues down this path,

he almost like his mind kind of shatters and

he thinks he's becoming Barry Allen like he's

trying to avoid his fate. So he's doing everything

to become Barry Allen. So, you know, he tries

to take things away from him so that he has like

even tries to like take his wife Iris and everything

like that and he ends up killing her and It's

just this huge rivalry that spans time, basically,

and, you know, Eobard Thawne keeps traveling

through time to fight the Flash. He's trying

to use his knowledge of history, so to speak,

since he's already studied it in all of their

history books and everything. He tries to use

that to his advantage, keeps going back in time

to different points, and they keep battling and

it's just really, really interesting and exciting.

Flashpoint Paradox, if you've never read it,

is awesome. There's probably not many people

that haven't read it. It's a huge recent story

from DC But if you don't feel like reading it

watch the animated movie, which was Equally as

good as I thought but and then even just the

flash TV show the first season It's a different

take on it. It's obviously a lot different than

the comics, but it's still that really Interesting

rivalry and they do a good job of depicting that

that's interesting because I didn't I don't know

much about the flash I never really read much

of it. So I had no idea that he started off as

more a fan of Barry Allen and how that morphed

into something else, which is Yeah, I think cuz

you kind of almost see the opposite of that happen

with the TV show where the Ebert on like playing

the role of Harrison Wells he you know almost

starts this relationship with him and Gross to

respect him in a way. So I don't know if that

was them trying to relate to it in a different

way But that's cool. I I was not aware of that

history All I really know is of what I've seen

in the TV show in the flash work paradox I just

assumed he was this bland evil version of the

flash that just wants to roll domination But

knowing there's a lot more to it. It's quite

good. Yeah, it's a lot deeper than it seems You're

right, they try to change it a little bit on

the show, but they're still touching on that

principle because they're trying to make them

friends. They kind of force them together and

then they're pulling the rug out from under you

and everything. So it's still the same sort of

thing, but those types of relationships always

make for the best rivalries. For my number five,

I'm actually going with an image story. Well,

probably one of the most infamous comics anyway,

so with Walking Dead. And there's a lot of great

rivalries in The Walking Dead. You can go Rick

and the governor, or even Michonne and the governor,

you know, man and zombies, because those are

all part of the show. But one that I always really

enjoy, because it just, it kind of rejuvenated

my interest in the series, because I was kind

of, you know, I... It was like, okay, this is

kind of getting to the point where I feel I don't

know if there's much more they can do with this.

And then issue 100 comes out and Negan is introduced.

And I don't think I've ever like physically hated

a character in a good sense, where I just like,

I just want to see Rick and him just fight all

the time. I just want to see Rick get his revenge

on this character, but he's also really captivating.

Like him and Rick, there are certain aspects

of both of them that... Are very much alike,

but the deep the small differences are very key

it's hugely key and how they treat one another

and When he was against the governor and even

in the show or in the comic I guess I never felt

the governor that threatening of a presence compared

to that of Negan where you know when he gets

there you're just worried about what he can do

and without giving anything away because What

I really like about it in the comics is kind

of where it goes And where it currently is at

right now because you think it's going down a

certain direction. I think it's like okay. Well,

this is gonna happen But the way they kind of

continue the rivalry in a new way and That's

where I feel like it's really gotten it's gotten

to its best because you can see these two characters

exploring Their relationship with one another

and even in their hatred and respect almost but

basically what you see is these two characters

really being forced to confront one another and

how they almost have to co -exist. I don't know,

I think there's a lot of potential for the next

season of Walking Dead, because I think this

rivalry is great, so really looking forward to

where they go with it. But it's gonna be really

hard to live up to what the comic did, but I

don't know. So Dan, that's been going on for

quite a few issues, right? Because what are they

on right now, like 153? 153, I think, yeah. So

yeah, it's been going on for a while. It's not

like every... Issue since then I would say like

he comes in and comes out when they when when

necessary But I don't know if they're gonna follow

the same pattern as a comic Because sometimes

they do sometimes they don't if they do it I'd

be interested because I really think jeffredine

morgan Is a great casting choice and I did like

what I saw So I'm curious how it how it goes

awesome Very cool. All right. Well greg that

moves on over to what's next on your list I'm

also gonna go out of the Marvel realm, which

I'm gonna stick to mostly through my answers

here. But I'm going to go with the adversary

versus the fables from the comic series Fables,

Fairest, you know, all those comics that fall,

I believe, in Vertigo publishing territory. And

the great thing about this rivalry is that You've

got the adversary who is this giant mysterious

foe that has kind of moved the fables out of

their land and just dominated them from the beginning,

just came out of nowhere. And when it's revealed

who the adversary is... oh that's just incredible

because you're never gonna guess who it is for

the most part and then he's had the upper hand

from the beginning like i've said and then the

great thing about the fables in all of this relationship

is that they're a fish out of water in the real

world when they first start off and they kind

of have to get acclimated to everything. And

then it kind of comes to their home, but they're

still always the low man on the total pull. It

looks like they'll never get back to their homelands.

And through all of this, they've kind of had

to form uneasy alliances with people that if

through the the fables from back in the day that

we've all kind of heard of. They kind of have

to join up with some of the villains from those

stories. So that makes it kind of interesting.

And then this is also one of those rivalries

that's stood the test of time and has gone over

centuries. Because you're talking back in human

history I guess around the Middle Ages. So this

has been going on for centuries I've really enjoyed

the entire series I have a little bit more left

to read and to see how this rivalry is going

to continue it's gone a different route starting

around the 10th through 12th graphic novel. I

want to say it's really changed But there's still

seeds of it and it's like growing in the background

This rivalry is kind of restarting in the background

and just watching that is is really interesting

See you just giving me more reasons to read fables

yet. I still have yet I know it's it's such a

good series Like if you seriously grew up hearing

all these tales and everything especially through

Disney movies It just gives you this different

view in it's like looking through Rose colored

glasses them and I think you'll especially enjoy

the first graphic not volume of the graphic novel

because It's more of a detective's kind of tale

and it helps you get to know some of the characters

But there's always new characters coming in old

characters coming out So there's this huge library

of characters to get to know and kind of love

different ones for different reasons And see

them grow and then fade away in different respects.

So it's it's really good I highly recommend the

fable series to anyone. I'm still trying to catch

up. I'm reading fables still I have fair graphic

novels to read yet it but yeah definitely definitely

check out that series also yeah I will too I

think it's even I think it's even at my library

so maybe I'll have to pick it up and read it

one of these days just definitely maybe for a

homework assignment back in the future all righty

Chuck moving on over to you what's number four

on your list number four I'm gonna go to a rivalry

that's You really can't get much closer than

these two and uh, they're they're brothers and

that is thor and loki nice nice nice I uh, I

very closely had this on my list, but I had I

went different direction, but What about this

rivalry made it stand out for you? um to me,

it's just the Just the bitter hatred between

the two But yet they're so close as you know

being brothers or or technically stepbrothers

or foster brothers or whatever you want to call

it. There are times when they do things to protect

each other, but for the most part, they pretty

much hate each other. And I think the movies

so far in the MCU have done a great job of highlighting

this. The two Thor movies really did an outstanding

job. Loki was really resentful for how he was

treated growing up by the citizens of Asgard

and stuff. the Asgardians sort of they really

held in high esteem the things like like strength

and bravery in combat and things like that and

Loki just wasn't as good as Thor in those things

and Thor was you know he was big he was muscular

he had great fighting skills things like that

and Loki was more of like a thinking man and

he really was into like tricking people. He started

developing his sorcery and things like that,

you know, obviously became known as the the god

of lies and mischief, you know, not the most

endearing descriptions of a person that you would

want to have. So he's really kind of bitter through

his whole, you know, childhood and adolescence

and everything and Thor's the next rightful king

of Asgard and Loki thinks he's more deserving

because I'm pretty sure he thinks he's smarter

than Thor and he can outsmart his enemies and

he'd be a better ruler. He would know what's

best for Asgard. But they just don't value those

sort of things. They value more of like things

in battle. So he just immediately seems like

an outcast, feels like an outcast. And that's

really what kind of just started this whole deep

-rooted hatred, and when things move to Earth,

Thor sort of befriends the new, you know, his

new allies on Earth and everything, Loki's sort

of taking the battle to them because they're

helping him, so he makes it a point to try to

attack them too, and foolishly, he inadvertently

creates the Avengers. one of the greatest superhero

teams of all time so you have this rivalry not

only resulting in great battles between Thor

and Loki themselves but you have as a result

of this rivalry you have the development of the

Avengers and all of the great battles and adventures

that they've gone on against Loki and everything

so I think just for the the gravity of this Rivalry

like there's so much writing on this rivalry.

It started so much They chose to make the first

Avengers movie about it because that's how the

Avengers first came together in the comics and

it's it's just too big to ignore I think and

it's one of the greatest in all of comics Yeah,

and what I like about that rivalry to it's kind

of what it tells you about both characters like

Thor has so many reasons to hate or destroy Loki,

but just knowing that he's his brother there's

still this element of love there and like that's

kind of what holds him off and still keeps him

have an element of hope and giving him chance

after chance gives you an idea of the character

of Thor and with Loki how he will manipulate

others and especially that of Thor and use his

love of the you know of Earth against him and

they've kind of gone back and forth like recently

with the comics you had like Loki What is it

soldier of Asgard or something like that worries

me? He was more of a hero and we can never really

trust him and I don't know I always find there's

so much to that relationship It's like almost

Shakespearean in a way and in the way it's treated

in the Marvel universe Yeah, I think Thor 2 was

it was really cool to kind of see them work together.

Yeah, and Thor asked for his help, you know Loki

agrees because it's in his best interest too,

but you see along the way them sort of be protective

of each other and sort of get uh get worried

or angry if something's about to happen to the

other one or something and those were really

really cool moments in those movies but then

of course by the end of the movie you realize

like Loki's still after his own agenda and you

know he has no problem uh basically sticking

it to Thor like whenever he gets the chance so

I think it's I think it's kind of interesting

how the Only child of the podcast went with the

the brotherly rivalry Yes I think that's kind

of interesting. I'm not sure why but maybe it's

a psychology type of thing But I find that to

be kind of interesting. No, it was really because

other people took my But now I I haven't joy

it more, you know, I had nude I had known the

comic history before and everything but I guess

I was never into actual Thor comics like I never

was a big Thor reader or anything but the older

issues are kind of dense a little bit yeah it

gets yeah you'd have to be like a really hardcore

Thor fan but uh it you know the movies really

sort of opened that up to me and I'm like wow

you know this is a really interesting relationship

and it kind of allows you to explore that a little

bit more Very cool. Very cool. Well, we're gonna

go from like a brother relationship to kind of

like a father and son relationship. There's been

a lot of classic father -son rivalries. Of course,

you know, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker comes

to mind, but this is maybe necessarily biological

father -son, but it's more mechanical in the

sense of Hank Pym and Ultron. I think there's

just so much to this rivalry in the sense of

knowing that Hank Pym's greatest creation is

also his greatest failure and just how much this

truly affects that of the character of Hank Pym

so negatively and it relates to almost the destiny

of that character that he just gets in his own

way so many times even when he has the greatest

intentions and how Ultron is probably at I guess

arguably the greatest event Avengers enemy. I

mean there's a lot that I don't know who you

would say but I would say Yeah, either him or

Loki, I would say. Yeah, some could argue Kang

maybe, but I think certainly Ultron has had a

few iconic scrapes with them here and there and

just how he plays on that and then how you had

a new element with Vision and like how it becomes

almost a three -way, not that type of three -way,

a three -way rivalry with Vision and how he incorporates

into it. Just always enjoyed their dynamic with

one another. I know with the movies it changed

it to be Tony Stark which I get but the ultimate

the comic version of it I think is still probably

my favorite just because that character of Hank

Pym so damaged and this is probably the biggest

reason why Yeah, I always I like that one a lot.

I always liked how I like the aspect of Hank

Pym sort of worrying that this terribly evil

intelligence came from his own self, basically.

We obviously knew Hank Pym had problems and everything

with how he was acting and stuff, but you never

thought he would be that evil and twisted and

perverse. And I think it scared even himself.

It was kind of like looking in a mirror that

amplifies your bad points or something, because

he was really, really... worried about how This

evil thing came from him. I always thought that

was an interesting aspect of it, too Yeah, all

right. Well, yeah, I always enjoy that they haven't

really got into it much lately I don't know maybe

because with Ultron he spreads love around I

think when it comes to people he goes up against

but all right Greg moving on over to you for

your number three. What is next on your list?

Number three we have let me flip the page Going

from a father -son Rivalry to more of Bestie

rivalry I go with another x -men characters more

x -men characters because you know me x -men

characters I'm going with Xavier versus Magneto

Clean clean your screen off Chuck Do you need

a tissue But I like the fact that they have these

ideological differences, but somehow through

this rivalry, they're still friends. It's just

that they go different routes on their thought

processes. You have Xavier who wants to unite

humans and mutants, while Magneto doesn't think

that's going to work out and tries to achieve

through What he thinks is a noble route but we

as the reader kind of see is evil and That's

how the writer is trying to make it come across

but still make it seem like he's on the right

side, but you have him go on this different route,

and Xavier just keeps getting in his way because

he does have the better route to run, but keeps

getting in Magneto's way to stop him from doing

these evils, and it just leads to the battles

of their two teams, whether it's the Brotherhood

or the X -Men. And I think with them being friends,

it makes a lot of their decisions on how to battle

each other and combat each other. It makes those

decisions harder because they really Don't want

to kill each other, but their needs of Achieving

their goals are just so big that it's just a

clash in their own minds to not against not even

against each other But just I'm not sure if I'm

saying that right, but like it's not just them

against each other It's them against themselves

when it comes to making decisions on how to fight

each other and how to combat each other whether

that beyond the battlefield or in the mind, not

literally with Xavier. But yeah, it's that whole

friendship and they've also been going at it

for a while over decades. And they have come

together in some aspects and they've fallen apart.

It just makes it very interesting to watch. It's

like that that couple that keeps breaking up

and coming back together. You question it and

like what the hell is going on with this? It

just makes it more and more interesting to watch.

That's what these two are. It's just very interesting

to watch. And they're basically the premise of

this comic. They're the ones that move the X

-Men comics along for these past... Decades,

it's developed into other characters taking different

places Currently within the past two or three

decades, maybe maybe two decades But it's it's

mostly been Xavier versus Magneto that's been

keeping the X -Men title running for so long

and what's made me love it and have a giant X

on my arm that some people think is a giant Nazi

symbol it isn't Yeah. Chuck, I, we heard your

sound effects, so thoughts on this rivalry? My

sound effects? You're, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

oh. Greg extended it a little further, but you

know. It was more like the sound I, like when

I see like a, like a Red Robin commercial or

something like that. Yum. No, I love that rivalry.

I, I know we're all huge X -Men fans. And that's

definitely one of my favorites. I would, I would

put that on my list too, if I could. Um, I think,

uh, what I've always really enjoyed about that

rivalry is that unlike a lot of other rivalries

where the two people like really hate each other,

they can't stand each other, don't want anything

to do with how the other person thinks. With

these two guys, they really have a full understanding.

of each other and each other's opinions. It's

not to the point where most people are just sort

of so bullheaded that they, you know, they say

like, you know, why can't, why can't this person

just see things the way I do? Why can't they,

why can't they just come to realize that my way

is better? And you know, my way is going to work.

They do feel that way to an extent, but they

both fully understand the other person's viewpoint

and position on the matter of mutants and how

they fit in with humanity. Like Magneto has a

ton of respect for Xavier and what he's doing

for mutants and Xavier has a ton of respect for

Magneto. He knows what he went through in his

childhood and the concentration camp and everything.

He kind of knows where he's coming from and they're

just like they're two warriors that just have

a ton of respect for each other and that's what

I always loved about it. Yeah, and for me hands

down. This is the best rivalry when it comes

to comics and Probably though in some ways in

is a big reason I'm in the comics big reason

I'm even doing a podcast because it kind of started

Be down this path, you know I remember watching

the X -Men cartoon and as a time where I'm used

to rivalries like Duke and Cobra commander wouldn't

clearly bad when clearly evil not much dimension

there No gray area this they just won guys The

bad guy and the good guy and then watching the

90s x -men cartoon and seeing like, okay He's

a villain, but he's helping the x -men. He's

actually really listening to them. He's talking

to them He doesn't really see the x -men as the

enemy the they have the different views than

he did does there they want to stop him because

of what he wants to do, but it's I always found

that really intriguing in the relationship that

he has with Xavier. It's been so well represented

in the cartoons, in the movies. Still one of

my favorite moments in that is in the... X -Men

a first -class movie and I think that's why that

movie resonates so much with me I think it gets

that relationship really well when you have really

two great characters that Have a lot of dimension

to them and then you're able to compare it and

really bring them together It wouldn't work if

Magnetia wasn't as good of a character as he

was and Xavier wasn't as good of a character

as he was so Alright Chuck moving on over to

you. What is next on your list? Next up for me

is It's not going to be too much of a shocker.

I think you guys pretty much know me as the cosmic

guy. I think you guys pretty much know me as

the cosmic guy of the three of us. Anybody that's

been listening to the podcast for a while knows

I'm a huge Thanos fan. And when you look at Thanos,

obviously a guy like Thanos is going to have

a ton of enemies. And there really are a ton

of characters that that you could fit into the

category as his, you know, his rival, as arch

nemesis, things like that. You know, you'll think

of guys like Captain Marvel, obviously, so like

in the 70s when Thanos was created by Starlin,

and he started, you know, crafting some stories

with him, the Cosmic Cube and things like that.

Captain Marvel was the main hero that was fighting

Thanos, and there were a ton of huge stories

that... dealt with those two kind of just going

at it back and forth and they were both very

powerful both completely opposite people you

know one's definitely good one's definitely evil

for sure but i still think uh Thanos had admired

him and things like that but he had the passing

of Captain Marvel in that story in the 80s which

was spoiler alerts chuck yeah if well you know

if it happened like 30 some years ago so if you're

if you don't know about it then tough noogies

so you have Captain Marvel sort of passing on

and someone sort of has to take his place so

to me the person that fills that void is kind

of Adam Warlock and I think since then has sort

of done even more stories and been in more adventures

and battles and different things with Thanos.

So that's the reason I'm going with Adam Warlock

and Thanos for this rivalry. And I would almost

describe them as frenemies, sort of. The first,

you know, yeah, I could see that. It's really

not like Xavier and Magneto. It's not like they

were best buds at one time and then they just

kind of split apart. It is like that, however,

in that both guys have a huge amount of respect

for each other. There's plenty of stories where

they end up on the same side, Thanos and Warlock

working together. So in that aspect, they have

a ton of respect for each other. They know what

the other person is capable of. They're capable

of great feats and really complex schemes and

things like that. So I think Thanos actually...

Warlock is one of the few people he really holds

in high esteem like he has a ton of respect for

warlock and I think it's it's the one guy that

he's almost like happy to go up against because

He knows it's gonna be a challenge And Thanos

is so used to kind of mopping the floor with

everyone that he goes up against You look at

uh, you know, obviously infinity gauntlet was

probably the most popular story with Thanos Warlock

was a huge part of that story in helping the

heroes and kind of defeat Thanos and get the

gauntlet away from him. When you go to Infinity

War, now you see them sort of on the same side

as they fight the evil half of Orlok's personality,

the magus. And so they kind of go back and forth

in different stories on each other's, you know,

on their side against each other. And there's

been some really cool stories where Thanos is

actually Opening up to warlock and he's sort

of like talking about his life and stuff like

that and it's like just stuff that you really

wouldn't expect but You don't see him interact

with anybody quite like he does with warlock.

So I just always thought that was a Really interesting

rivalry to note. I thought it was worthy of my

list Yeah, I wish I I've read more of that rivalry

I mean I've gotten pieces here and there with

like infinity gauntlet and Enjoyed that and I

do like their dynamic with one another They kind

of recognize the necessity of each other in a

way But they kind of just keep each other in

check like you like you mentioned so and more

looks always I don't know a lot of an underweight

rated character I know with what is the starland

series? That's currently how infinity entity

and cheese. Yeah He's being the entity if infinity

entity he's being utilized more But I almost

wish they did they've done more with them And

I'm really hoping that we finally see him in

the Marvel, you know cinematic universe in some

way because I feel like yes That would be awesome

If we're gonna do the infinity gauntlet you kind

of need him because like you said him and Thanos

kind of go hand -in -hand since More Captain

Marvel passed away spoiler alert one of the few

characters that's actually stayed dead in the

Marvel Yeah, really? That's a good point Well,

I mentioned earlier with how much the impact

of Professor Xavier and McNeino had in my childhood

when it came to getting in love with the X -Men.

Well, there was a rivalry before that, too. That

is comic book related. Though this is a comic

book rivalry, I first came to know it mostly

because the 1990s and 80s TV show, and that's

the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Shredder.

We've been talking a lot about all these strong

relationships, all these different dynamics.

This one, I'll be honest, maybe doesn't have

that to the same extent, but I just think they're

too... different characters that go hand in hand

with one another. They're tied with their fate.

Like if I'm seeing the turtles, I hope that I'm

seeing some form of Shredder. His hatred of turtles,

which is random and I enjoy the different versions

of Shredder if he's more cartoonish to the more

kick -ass version in some of the later series.

And the recent IDW series, I really liked what

they did. And they added a lot of history between

Shredder and Turtles. And of course, you get

to include Splitter in that as well, where there's

almost like a reincarnation element of it too.

So it's just really this rivalry that's gone

through centuries, which is kind of cool. And

it sounds dumb on paper, but it actually ends

up working really well and just the classic martial

arts type of face off. But instead of being,

you know, two humans, it's a dude dressed up

as a tin can and teenage turtles. So, you know,

it's a lot of fun. It's probably not the most

maybe sophomore compared to some of the other

ones, but I still think it's impactful when it

comes to me and my love of comics. Yeah, that's

a great one. You got to have the shredder and

the turtles in there. I was actually thinking

about that one, too. Greg, I'm guessing, you

know, you were grew up at the same time. So I'm

sure the shredder and the turtles also impacted

you in some way. Yeah, I'm still trying to make

my way through the the party wagon of DVDs of

the series, which hasn't been going so well.

It hasn't lived up to nostalgia. Yeah, it's it's

a little tough to get through as an adult. But

yeah, definitely. I loved seeing those two go

at it. I would kind of think crying is kind of

up there. But it's still, it doesn't have that

history that a splinter and shredder have of

going against each other and everything. And

how like one's pure evil, the other's pure good

and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's it's just

great and it's definitely one of the ones I grew

up with but I think I've kind of Grown past that

especially since the new movies and how they've

kind of portrayed the relationship Yeah, yeah,

the new movie really ruined shredder in a lot

of different ways Yeah, it is very black and

white like we said, but I think it's still fun

I don't still think it's their dynamic dynamics

interesting and I've actually the Batman Teenage

Mutant Ninja Turtle crossover actually kind of

enjoyed how he fits into the Batman universe

as well with shredder. That's it's Quite a good

series. I would advise picking that up if you

have the chance, but Alright wrapping it round

back over. We're already kind of out there. We're

at our number twos So Greg, what's next on your

list? I'm sticking with X -Men here, Dan. You're

like, who else does Greg have to mention from

X -Men, right? Yeah, I'm trying to think. Is

it Jubilee and being interesting? No, no, no,

no, but it's something that you'll probably enjoy

from the 90s cartoons And it hasn't really been

Struck out as much in comics. Oh, oh Chuck you

want to get hazard a guess I will guess I'm gonna

say Wolverine Cyclops very good Shocked, surprised,

and very happy that you got that right. I actually,

that one crossed my mind as well. Really? Okay,

cool. But yeah, Cyclops versus Wolverine. I love

their little back and forth in the animated series

that was kind of their angst over each other

because they both love the same woman. They both

have infatuation with Jean Grey. Cyclops has

her, Wolverine wants her. That kind of goes back

and forth, this nice little love triangle going

on there. And I think it was the first love triangle

that I've really... uh heard of in in my life

it was the first one that i've kind of uh uh

experienced i guess i don't know what you i want

to say there but i think for me might have been

the pink ranger the red ranger and the green

ranger i think that was that there if they had

a little triangle i don't even remember i think

they kind of did but it played off more friendly

she got around is what we're saying yeah but

in the comic books now they're kind of playing

that up uh now which i i highly recommend it.

That's a really good read. But back to Cyclops

and Wolverine. They also had different views

on how the team should be run, which you see

a lot of that in the animated series, where they

go out looking for Morphin. They come back looking

for Morphin. Wolverine's pissed that they don't

keep looking for him and that they've given up

and all this stuff. Cyclops a lot of crap, but

that's also because Wolverine does not care for

authority figures Especially since higher -ups

in Canadian government and more shadowy figures

authoritative figures have Tortured him with

giving him an adamantium skeleton and played

with his mind so much So you've got that going

on But they also kind of go beyond that a little

bit too and it kind of becomes this giant pissing

competition a little bit. It's more on Wolverine's

side that it becomes a pissing competition but

it's still great to see play out. One of my favorites

ever of seeing them together is actually the

first movie and them going through the metal

detector and Cyclops kind of laughing at Wolverine

who gets picked up by the metal detector going

off and Wolverine kind of flipping a cyclops

the middle claw is it's just great and that movie

was great to see their relationship back and

forth I think that's one of the better examples

of it Love the little jabs he throws into the

subtle ones like oh, yeah, he'll say like keep

your eye open Instead of eyes This one is is

more of a fun one because you know in the end

of the day at the end of the day They're gonna

come together and and and fight for what's right?

Except for maybe now cuz Cyclops is kind of and

plus apparently he now he's dead too or something

I I don't know Exactly what's going on there.

I apparently missed a couple. Spoiler alert,

jeez. Yeah, sorry. Well, you don't even know

why yet. It's weird. No, they haven't explained

it. Okay, they haven't? All right. I thought

I missed a comic or something. I was confused.

No, they have not. But I think one of my favorite

moments is it's kind of small, but it's one of

the first episodes. I think it's like Night of

the Sentinels and Cyclopsis is trying to ream

out. Wolverine and he just punched him right

in the stomach like when he's a sentence and

he pulls out his claws He's like next time I'm

using these and then walks away Like that sums

up the relationship perfectly. Yeah, that one's

that that relationships a lot of fun So that's

that's a fun rivalry. So that kind of goes Adds

a lot to it, too. So I guess I was gonna put

that somewhere on a list I would have it up a

little bit higher on the list and I guess that's

why I mentioned It's so late here. All right,

so Chuck we've had a lot of different types of

rivalries We had father -son almost brothers

frenemies more more friends than enemies. What's

next on your list? Yes, my number two is uh It's

gonna be a little weird. I think you guys might

kind of be shocked at this one because you're

gonna say it's not really a rivalry but It's

it's kind of a rivalry in a weird way and it's

because of that weird way is why I'm picking

it from my list And that is silver surfer and

galactus ha ha nice. Yes Yeah, okay, all right

I was I thought maybe I was the only one kind

of thinking of it that way but it's gonna gone

back and forth, you know Yeah, and that's really

what's intriguing about it because I've kind

of described it as like a love -hate relationship

sort of thing You know, obviously, way back in

the beginning, Galactus comes to Zendla, which

is Norenrad's home planet. And in order to save

his planet and to save his love, Shalabal, he

offers to serve Galactus and find him new worlds

to consume if he will basically spare their planet.

And it kind of it really starts there because

the Surfer has these intentions that Okay, I'm

gonna find him worlds that are uninhabited but

still have the kind of energy that he needs to

rejuvenate himself So he has the best of intentions

But when he's transformed into the Silver Surfer

Galactus really like messes with his mind and

kind of twists his mind so his memories are all

goofed up his memories are really sort of buried

deep and he doesn't remember them for the longest

time and He really doesn't stick to that, uh,

you know, that intention that he had of finding

uninhabited worlds. So, but it's really not his

fault. And classic Silver Surfer though, he always

blames himself for those things. And he was,

he's really like a tortured soul. He's a noble

soul though. He's one of the, one of the few

characters that I can really like put in the

same category with people like Captain America

and Superman and Thor and some Characters like

that that are really selfless and really aren't

interested in any accolades whatsoever They just

want to do what's right for their their loved

ones and for the universe and everything so I've

always loved silver surfer in that way, and it's

just this really interesting dynamic because

He's meant to He's always meant to do things

the right way, but the way Galactus messed with

his head He really wasn't able to and he's always

blamed himself, but he's always like sort of

had this deep hatred of Galactus, in my opinion.

But then at the same weird, in the same weird

way, he has this sort of love for Galactus as

well. And we've seen many times throughout the

years where he actually, you know, he's been

free of being Galactus' herald, but he goes back

to it. There's been times when Galactus was in

trouble and he needed a herald, you know, he

didn't have one. And without one, um it was going

to be difficult for him to find the planets that

he needed to survive so so silver surfer sort

of went back with him to help him so it's this

really strange relationship that continues to

get explored in different ways now i'm not up

on i guess the newest stories i guess they're

on like really i think they're on like the eighth

volume of silver surfer they keep sort of starting

it over and stuff like that i did read one i

think it was Silver Surfer Devolution or something

like that, or however you want to say it. That

one was from a few years back. That was interesting,

where it seems like he had forgotten about Shallow

Bow and he had like this new love interest and

stuff, but I haven't read a whole lot of the

new Silver Surfer stuff, so I'm not quite sure

where that relationship is right now, but I know

from the things I've read from the 80s, 90s,

Early 2000 stuff like that. That was always a

really really interesting relationship between

him and Galactus and I was always looking forward

to see where they would take that next It seemed

like when when push came to shove and Galactus

was really in trouble a few times he actually

can get into trouble because of how powerful

he is. Silver Surfer is usually there to try

to, like, protect him and try to save him. But

I still think deep down he sort of still hates

him for what he did and how he took him away

from his true love, Shalabal, and his home world

and everything. And I guess for those one of

many reasons, those are two of my most favorite

characters. The new series, the new dance lot

series, I've read some of it. They touched on

Galactus a little bit. It's interesting. It's

a different take, I would say, tonally with the

characters. It feels like a 70s almost acid trip,

but not to that extent, I guess. But I actually

really like it. It's quite weird and strange.

I don't know if it would be something you would

enjoy because I think it's definitely a little

bit more... Humorous in a way like it's kind

of got a slight more humor take but it's it's

a strange It's a strange book, but I actually

quite enjoy it. Even the art style. It's quite

good. Um, But yeah, I think associated humor

with silver surfer at all. Yeah, he's not like

funny. It's not like funny not funny. Haha, but

It's not like, you know laugh out loud like jokey,

but it's just I don't know it's just the way

it's written. It's hard to explain. It's, you

know, uh, it's dance slot. So it's, it's, it's

got, he's got his own, he's got his own take

on it, but you might, I would say give it an

issue or two. And if you, if you don't like it,

you probably won't like any of it, but if you

do, it's, you'll see. But yeah, I mean, That

is a good relationship because Galactus is such

an intriguing figure because he's not necessarily

evil or good, he's just this force of nature

and seeing Silver Surfer having to interact with

him in different ways. I think by far, when it

comes to all the heralds of Galactus, Silver

surfer and him have always had a relationship

that's deeper and more respectful than his other

ones at the I'm assuming like he's more loyal

than any of the other heralds have been Yeah,

yeah Yeah, and I think probably has more respect

for surfer than than the others even if even

though he did turn on him I think he at least

sees the reason behind it. I guess I don't know

Yeah, cuz you got to think about it like he could

kill the surfer if he wanted to but just decides

not to Very cool. All right. Well, it's interesting

like you guys are talking about all these more

dynamic and Layered rivalries and I feel like

with my last one really just good and evil and

kind of this one, too though perhaps in the more

recent years or so it's expanded upon that but

I think it's one of the most iconic rivalries

when it comes to comics possibly one of the first

and one that expands upon comics and it's that

of Red skull in captain america, you know captain

america being my one of my favorite characters

And red skull being his arch nemesis and you

talk about characters and rivalries where you

have those that They're very similar. You know,

they're the frenemies per se. This is not that

these are two people who are pretty much Morally

opposed to each other in every way possible.

There are the exact opposite, you know, they

are 180 degrees separation from one another You

have pure evil versus pure good the Boy Scout

versus, you know a glorified Satan or Hitler

The guy who represents American values the character

that represents everything that's wrong with

the world. So They are, you know, almost destined

to fight one another. They've both survived death

on multiple occasions. You know, these people

started their rivalry back in World War II and

still going to this day. And recently, I think

it's kind of gone further. There's been a few

little cool twists here and there with it, with

Red Skull getting the brain of Charles Xavier,

and so I had to put him on this list. Like I

said, it may not be as complex as the Xavier

-Magneto relationship, but I think it's just

as important. Yeah, I've always loved that that

rivalry too and I know we've talked about this

in the past but a lot of times when I think of

Captain America and Red Skull Obviously, we've

been influenced a lot by animated series growing

up and stuff like that. But a lot of the times,

I think back to the Spider -Man animated series

where they did that story arc at the end with

the Red Skull. That was amazing. Like, you know,

and the fact that they had I think there was

one point where they discussed them like, you

know, Captain America and Red Skull sort of were

trapped in limbo for like decades or something

and they were locked in battle and they They

were fighting and battling this whole time I

mean that's that's the sort of like deep fire

of hatred like for each other that these guys

have like It's not something like any of the

other rivalries. We talked about Today like it's

just it's totally different like anything that

would keep these guys locked in combat for Decades

so to speak even though that didn't really happen

in the comics But it sort of has over the time

if you think about it, they've really been going

at it. So It's sort of like a metaphor for that.

But and I think that's a really good Example

of just how much these guys oppose one another

Cool. Cool. All right, we're down to our last

one Greg. What is last on your list? last is

One I don't think anybody's really thought of

and this time I went out of the X -Men realm

Thank you. So I went with another character that

I've I've really enjoyed throughout the the years

I haven't read as much of his stuff as of late

and he's not even really around that much anymore

But I'm going with the Hulk versus General Thunderball

Ross Yeah Thank you. What I like about their

relationship is they're they're on two different

scales of power. Hulk is very strong. Ross is

just a guy, a normal guy. And so but you've got

Hulk who's all by himself and you've got Ross

who's got this army and this government behind

him to hunt down and he's Constantly going after

the Hulk. It's an obsession to bring down the

Hulk and these guys didn't even like each other

to begin with even with Bruce Banner Ross didn't

like banner now and He changed into the Hulk

and he doesn't like the Hulk He thinks he's a

menace is kind of like J Jonah Jameson and spider

-man except a little bit more brutal and deadly

Which that maybe that should have been on the

list J Jonah and spider -man actually that When

you say that that was on my list, but I replaced

it when we did the Joker incarnation So that

was the one I was a little bit. I was a little

bit hesitant on so But you've got the whole of

the Ross going after whole constantly and all

Hulk wants to do is be left alone But you've

got freaking Ross poking him with the stick all

the time like a giant dumbass and Ross will do

almost anything Anything to bring down the Hulk

like it's the the lengths that he goes to Extreme

like citizens can die like anything goes for

Ross to Claim his mission changing himself into

another Hulk. Yeah changing changing himself

into something. He doesn't dislikes completely

It's kind of funny when you when you see it like

when He's able to make like the U .S. Army the

the the villain and the one thing that like Hulk

has always kind of had you're like, Oh, well,

who's who's Hulk's, you know, nemesis and people

like the leader. But really it is Thunderbolt

Ross because it's really the one guy he was always

constantly trying to bring him down. And and

essentially the military is kind of the reason

that the Hulk is. In existence why Bruce Banner

became the Hulk it was a military test that to

changed him So you got that kind of little aspect

go and I know he went out to help save um His

name's not coming to me Rick Rick Jones Rick

Jones James bitch Which was Rick James. But yeah,

he goes out to save him. But it is essentially

a military test that kind of formed him. And

so that's another aspect of why Banner should

hate the military, but he's more afraid of it

than anything else and afraid of hurting anybody.

So that's another interesting aspect to the relationship.

But I've always liked the Hulk as a character.

And I used to read him a lot more. But that was

definitely one of the rivalries that I always

enjoyed. the intensity of Thunderbolt Ross coming

after the Hulk who just leave him alone. He won't

do anything if you don't poke him with a stick.

Yeah, I mean don't poke the Hulk with a stick.

That's today's lesson. So Awesome. All right,

Chuck moving on over to you What are robberies

to choose from? What's what's number one on your

list? Number one takes me way back when I first

got out of comics, I guess my first favorite

character was Spider -Man. And I think one of

the earliest rivalries, if not the earliest one

I can remember, and one that really got me deeply

cemented into comics and exploring it more was

the rivalry between Spider -Man and Green Goblin.

And that really is, when you really break it

down, it's Spider -Man's greatest enemy. For

a lot of reasons. I think you know, he has obviously

a huge rogues gallery a ton of great villains

I love the Spidey villains probably rivaled only

by like the Batman villains as far as like a

Extensiveness and in the rogues gallery, but

you know, obviously I love characters like venom

and carnage and all those but Goblin goes way

back and Norman Norman Osborn to be more specific

and you look at the relationship like obviously

Peter had with Harry and this being Harry's father

you know presents this huge obstacle like when

when they kind of figure out who each other is

you obviously have Green Goblin being responsible

for the death of Spider -Man's girlfriend you

know his first really true love a huge watershed

moment in comics like Like all the great comic

readers will tell you, like, that they remember

that moment. It's one of the most shocking in

comics. And obviously when you, even when you

take it further to, you know, Harry becoming

the Green Goblin and that relationship got even

more complex because it wasn't your best friend's

father. Now it is your best friend. you start

kind of becoming a little bit like Xavier and

Magneto in a way. And you have like, you remember

the story where, you know, Green Goblin sort

of, the hairy Green Goblin sort of saved Spider

-Man from, I think there was a burning building

or something like that. And he ended up saving

Spider -Man's life and sort of sacrificing himself.

So just the history of the Green Goblin Spidey.

whether it's Norman, you know, killing Gwen Stacy

or whether it's him battling Harry and struggling

with their relationship and stuff like that.

It's just one of the. One of the absolute greatest

rivalries in all of comics, and it's something

that got me really interested in comics when

I started reading them and stuff and kind of

made a neat foundation for me to kind of get

started on. Yeah, I think great rivalries are.

Or have iconic moments and certainly that has

one of the most iconic moments of all time when

it comes to comic books So definitely deserves

to be mentioned and we talk about iconic moments

A lot of people are like are they gonna are they

gonna do it? Are they forgetting one even a lot

of ones people are you know? There's a lot to

choose from some probably we're gonna miss but

if it seems fitting that we will end with this

one as number one on my list and last on my list

is none other than of course of Batman and Joker.

How could you not mention it? It is the rivalry

probably most infamous when it comes to comics

the one if you ask anyone on the street Give

us two characters that hate each other the most

give us a rivalry the most important one in comics

It's the one people are gonna go to there are

many reasons why there are so many things to

get into you probably have a podcast just on

this relationship and what they mean to one another

the different versions of it from the killing

joke to you know to the Dark Knight there are

so many reasons why this has resonated with people

throughout the years. We've seen very different

versions of Batman, we've seen different versions

of Joker, but ultimately they all kind of share

some similarities with one another. So I guess

maybe we can talk, do you guys have any favorite

moments when it comes to the Batman, Joker rivalry,

anything that comes to mind when you think of

them, what pops into your head? I'd go with one

of their latest clashes and I'm gonna mess up

the title death of the family death in the family

It's something like that. There's another death

of family Title out there, but I'm talking about

this latest thing written by Scott Snyder Where

the just the epic battle they have or Joker has

like all of the the bat family kind of laid out

there and he's got batman literally up again

well not literally up against the wall but up

against the wall and the battle there of kind

of wits and strength it was just an awesome battle

that they have going and that they know each

other so intimately. And the fact that Bruce

talks about he went to Arkham as Bruce Wayne

and he went up to the Joker's cell and started

talking to him about something that Batman was

trying to solve with about the Joker and The

joker didn't even like look at him didn't do

anything. He just kind of ignored him because

it was like That's not like i'm not looking for

bruce wayne to come at me i'm looking for batman

like he wouldn't acknowledge bruce wayne at all

But as batman, he totally acknowledges and goes

totally cutthroat. So I thought that was kind

of an interesting look at their relationship

that hasn't really been seen before. That's pretty

awesome. Yeah. Do you have anything that comes

to mind? I don't know. I really liked The Killing

Joke. That was a really cool story. Obviously

Under the Red Hood with the whole Jason Todd

thing, which was from Death in the Family and

everything. Those are all great stories. Really

enjoyed those a lot. I enjoyed in The Killing

Joke, like them sort of giving a little bit of

an origin of the Joker. You know, even though

it might not be completely canon, but it's like

a it's sort of a peek into what his life could

have been before he was the Joker. I always thought

that was interesting. I enjoyed that a great

deal. But yeah, like the Joker is just he just

represents pure chaos and randomness. And like,

I think one of many reasons that they they go

so well together. you know him and Batman is

that you know Batman's parents were just seemingly

chosen at random by this thug that you know shot

them the alley and you know the Joker's sort

of like his random acts of evil and All of those

things just sort of keep bringing that back to

Batman I think this kind of keeps bringing it

up to him and stuff like that like he hates He

hates randomness and chaos and stuff like he's

just sort of strives for order and and things

like that So even though like, you know, he'll

he doesn't shy away from using fear tactics and

you know his whole persona is based on that but

He doesn't want to see like some order and justice

and stuff like that. So really interesting Sizes

the coin there, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, I think

there's I honestly it's kind of cheating but

one of the I think moments that maybe send sums

it up the most is that a infamous speech by Alfred

in The Dark Knight about you know man wanting

seeing the world burn and just seeing what that

means in relationship to Batman this guy that

is so bent on finding the motivations of people

and reason and logic and when the person's completely

absent of that, you know, they're very great

compliments of one another in that way in the

sense of they are true rivals because Joker's

strengths or Batman's weaknesses, it's not necessarily

kryptonite, but it's just taking what he typically

uses to succeed against everyone else. And it's

why he tends to fail when it comes to going into

the Joker. So randomly that a dude dressed up

as a bat and the guy dressed up as a clown could

be such a great story and great, you know, a

great starting point for some of the best literature

and all of literature in the last, you know,

50 years or so. So strange world we live in,

I guess. You guys have any other honorable mentions

that maybe we didn't bring up but you thought,

you know, we're close to making your list? I

guess one I would definitely bring up is Reed

Richards and Dr. Doom. Yeah, that's a good one,

yeah. That's a... Definitely a cool one. You

have like You know again sort of I guess not

the best of friends but sort of friends in college

college roommates and studying together and you

know things go awry and Suddenly dr. Doom hates

him for the rest of his life But that one just

more so because of doom because I love doom as

a villain he's one of my favorites I'm not the

biggest Fantastic Four fan, but I do enjoy dr.

Doom quite a bit Guess I would also throw in

obviously Superman and Luther It's a great one.

I think Hal Jordan and Sinestro is another great

one This is so hard because there's so many different

lanterns. It's like I Think Hal Jordan's get

the one though. He's gotta be you know That's

the rivalry because those two didn't like each

other even when they were on the same side You

know what I mean, and then I have You know sinestro

forming his own core the sinestro core and it's

just like this huge huge rivalry now that one

always captivated me and then uh, I guess some

lesser some ones you wouldn't think of maybe

like Uh the thing in the hulk. Yeah, I actually

have that as an honorable mention That's a pretty

cool one. They're always you know, kind of duking

it out That one goes way back to yeah I didn't

put that one because I feel like it's just like

it's ultimately just them punching each other,

but it's kind of yeah Yeah, yeah, that's pretty

much why I didn't make my list. Um I don't want

to take them all here. I'll just mention like

two more but captain marvel and black adam is

another great one and uh Actually, uh deathstroke

and nightwing. It's pretty cool. Like well really

the whole teen titans, but you know nightwing

for the most part so There's some other great

ones obviously great Cap Baron Von Zemo. Yeah,

I just think Zemo is a really cool villain I

wish you could see more from him. I just had

one in my head and then it just poof out of it.

Now, Deadpool versus Taskmaster. That's another

front of me kind of situation that I always liked

in the comic. There was one where Taskmaster

goes, yeah, everybody thinks you're a goofy guy,

but he's like, I know you've got skill and everything

and paid respect to Deadpool. But they've gone

at it back and forth through the years, which

was really cool to me. Let's see, I like recently

they had in Batgirl, they had a villain come

in that was really cool. It was Batgirl versus,

and I forget his name at this point. I think

it started with a D or something. Let me look

it up real quick. Well, you look at I'll add

a few to that didn't come on I thought about

the scrolls and the Cree, you know It's not necessarily

a character rivalry, but you know races that

hate each other Some extra related ones, you

know apocalypse has a lot of great ones. You

can be can link them to you know Archangel to

Even cable they have a pretty storied rivalry

Mr. Sinister and Cyclops or even like, you know,

the whole great family and you know, they're

back and forth and what that's led to and whatnot

and how that, how great that creation is. Surely

one of you guys was gonna mention Daredevil and

Kingpin, right? Yeah, of course. You can even

do Daredevil and Bullseye, of course. Electra

and Bullseye. Yeah. You mentioned super superman

and like luther yet superman and brainiac. He's

got a few as well. So you can go on uh, who's

Does wonder woman have a really big arch enemy

or cheetah? Yeah cheetah is her main enemy. I

think That sounds kind of lame. Yeah, it is.

It's kind of lame. So Yeah, especially since

the original cheetah made your costume out of

a cheetah rug That's kind of lame. But the character

I'm thinking of, he essentially takes over Barbara's

mind and makes her questioner everything that's

going on. So that was kind of an interesting

take. Very cool. Very cool. I always loved, I

brought it up before, but I always loved Spider

-Man and Venom as well. Yeah. Venom's because

of the symbiote was once on Peter. It like he

understands peter like like really no one else

does so that one's always been really really

cool Yeah, even spider -man and dock dog because

they have a kind of a relationship there and

especially after stock dog took over the body

of spider -man That was so there you always thought

about batman versus catwoman Yeah, yeah, that's

another friend of me, but friend of me with benefits

friend of me with benefits is what you can call

that Yeah, we can go on. I mean, there's probably

tons and tons we haven't come up with I'm sure

people are yelling at their screen, they're yelling

at their phone that there's major ones we didn't

bring up. But if you do want to let us know what

you thought of the ones we had or some of your

favorites, you can get in contact with us in

a number of different ways. You can email us

at feedback at geecastradio .com or talkingincirclesatlive

.com. We're on Facebook and Twitter as well.

Just search talkingincircles .bcrn. You guys

are also on Twitter. What are your Twitter names?

Am at heroic age Chuck and I am at the creep

and I am at Revolts But that'll be it for this

week. We'll be back next week same time same

channel same podcast feed but for now This has

been Chuck this has been Greg or your greatest

enemy Oh, no, I'm scared and this has been Dan

and we've been Talking in circles. We'll see

you next week Thank you, thanks appreciate that

I very much cherish my villainous laugh I've

been working on it a while I've been trying to

get it out there at award show season so I could

win an Oscar or something. You can't just throw

it in there whenever. It's got to make sense.

Yeah, and I think it made sense there. It totally

did. That's why it took me over 100 episodes

to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It works.