Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Review

Hi, this is Kevin Conroy, and you're listening

to the Geekcast Radio Network. You are now on

the inside of what I like to call the circle

of trust. We are all connected in a great circle

of life. You know something, Bert? I think you

and I are going in circles. It feels like we're

going in circles. The circle is not complete.

When I left you, I was but the learning. Now

I am the master. Because it's a circle. Yeah,

we heard about the circle. Yeah, it's what the

million would change. Hi, this is Greg. This

is Chuck. And this is Dan, and we are Talking

in Circles, brought to you by the Geekcast Radio

Network. podcast that bleeds and maybe cries

as today we'll be talking about the infamous

Batman v Superman movie people just can't get

enough of or Already walked out of I guess it

depends on your viewpoint there But before we

get to Batman v Superman dawn of justice leaked

forever As we've been going for you guys is it

was that gonna turn into a Star Wars crawler?

Donna justice V Long time ago, galaxy far, far

away. Zack Snyder doesn't know how to do Superman.

It fits with the theme of trying to cram everything

in the smallest space possible. True, that's

true. My week's been going pretty well. I went

to the comic book store this past weekend and

had quite the interesting situation happen around

me. I did not put myself into it, very thankfully,

because it was kind of crazy. Just looking at

the new comics. And then in through the door

walks somebody with music blaring at 50 billion

decibels. That's always appreciated. And yeah,

he had his hat on backwards and he had this big

poofy ponytail coming out the peak of the hat

in the back. This is sounding like my hero. Oh,

he is a total hero. He walks in and then... what

you would think was his mother, Elzem Shhh. How

old was this person? Around 26, so a little bit

younger than us. And the woman that was with

him was, I found out later their ages were 26

and 52. And the supposed mother tells him shh,

and he turns around and goes, don't you tell

me to shh. And Then he says hi to Dave the owner

and then all of a sudden they go back into the

little toy area and all you hear is a little

bit of like an argument going on you know it's

like something contested but you're not really

getting the whole conversation but you're hearing

her go a lot to him he's already shut up and

turned off his music thankfully at this point.

but you just hear something going on back there,

and I'm kind of like, you know, the cops gonna

have to get called to the comic book store. But

she finally, like, she's walking out the other

door, the whole store away from him, God, I'm

going outside to make a phone call. And so she

goes outside. So then we're just left with him.

Comes over kind of next to me in the middle of

the new comic section, looks around for maybe

two, three seconds, and then asks Dave, the owner,

Oh, do you have this? Putting no effort into

looking for himself, Dave then has to get up

from where he's sitting, almost halfway across

the store, and goes, grabs what he wants, essentially

right where he was looking. To be fair, they

are organized alphabetically, so it could be

difficult to figure that out. And then he gives

the comic to the guy, and then proceeds to walk

back to his desk, and the guy goes, oh, do you

have number two as well? And so Dave has to turn

back around, grab him number two off the shelf,

and give it to him. He's gonna beat number two

out of him. And so finally Dave is checking this

guy out, and he finally leaves. And then I'm

over in the graphic novel section. Did he pay

for the stuff? Yes, he did pay for it. He checked

him out and paid for it. Then I was over hanging

out at the graphic novel section, which is across

the store. And then, like, I'm spending about

five, six minutes over there. And then I go check

myself out with Dave and we're talking we're

having a nice conversation and then in the midst

of our conversation In walks the mother She shows

her phone to Dave and goes to him Mid conversation

like she totally interrupts our conversation

goes. Why would you write this to him? And Dave,

I'm like, what the hell's going on? Why is this

lady confronting Dave? What did Dave write? Because

Dave is one of the nicest people ever. And he's

like, if you scroll back up, you could see that

we were talking about Justice League. I didn't

write anything about him. It was about the Justice

League. And she goes, oh, turns around, walks

out. And I turn to Dave and I go. What the hell

was that? He goes, yeah, those two are, she's

like, you heard the argument before, right? I'm

like, yeah, I heard that, uh -huh. And he's like,

yeah, they're, she's 26, she's 52, and they've

been dating for a while. And it's like, okay.

And, uh, so I'm like, okay. And they're like,

he's like, yeah, they fight a lot. She apparently

had suicidal tendencies. He's got drug issues.

So they're quite the pair. Do you have his phone

number? I have to assume it was like through

Facebook or something like that. I would at least

hope. But as we kind of left that conversation,

I was leaving and I said goodbye to Dave. I was

like, I'll see you next week. And Dave, please

take care of yourself. Please take it. He's like,

thanks. And then later I was going to pick my

mother up at the mall, which isn't that far away

from the comic book store. It's about five blocks

altogether walking. The city is grand, so they're

not huge blocks. I see them again walking down

the street, and they're arguing. Do you think

I'm an idiot? And they're screaming at each other,

walking down the street. So that was a fun comic

book experience. I totally went to the comic

book store at the wrong time. They sound like

lovely people. They looked like lovely people.

Well, that's amazing. I don't think it's going

with you. Pretty good. Nothing really too exciting

happened, to be honest. I think I was telling

you guys earlier that I did make an interesting

Amazon purchase. I bought a DC Omnibus, my first

DC one. I have a few Marvel ones, but it's an

old story a lot of you guys probably know called

DC One Million. This omnibus, I'm not even kidding.

It's like three inches thick. Nice. It's really

taking me forever to read. It's like 1200 pages,

but um I never I never read that story when it

came out or anything and especially all the little

tie -ins that this includes and everything so

Pretty excited for that to read that even though

it'll probably Take me like 12 weeks to read

it We read it while driving just to try to finish

it. Yeah, right I it was funny like I saw the

box on my porch when I got home and I picked

it up and I was like, holy shit It's like 10

pounds Pretty crazy, but that's it. Hopefully

you have a strong shells man. Those can add up.

Yeah, they definitely can Yeah, that's my first

DC one. I have a few Marvel ones, but I'm really

liking the the omnibus style like because they

actually end up giving you a lot of extras and

stuff Yeah in it like at the end they give you

like original sketch work and they give you like

little bonus features like a lot of times with

You know how they how they created the book and

like interviews with the creators and stuff Usually

some pretty cool stuff in there, and they do

like varying covers they put in there and you

have like really nice like thick cardstock paper

that's like nice and glossy like really top quality

stuff and sewn binding and everything like that

so really good quality stuff nice nice so yeah

my week is going pretty that's on event but we

did have uh easter this past one recording this

two days after that and with my son's first easter

uh didn't do anything too extravagant because

he's one not even one yet so He loves stacking

cups, so we got him cool stacking cups. He loves

building them up and knocking them down. He's

like a little baby Godzilla. But besides that,

not much else. I'm a big fan of ham and scallop

potatoes, so we did have some great food for

Easter. But now we're home in Scranton for the

week, so looking forward to that. So we're actually

recording one of the rare live and in -person

episodes, which is always fun to do. But besides

that, it's not much going on except for this

awful weather we have right now. It's like we're

living inside of a Zack Snyder movie. It actually

calmed a little bit. Dark dreary and rainy and

windy and confusing Not very motivated But with

that what we're gonna do right now because there's

a lot to get into with Batman v Superman I get

some good things possibly some bad things and

what we're gonna do is take a quick break We're

gonna come back with some general thoughts and

then we also will certainly get into some of

those nifty -difty spoilers So we'll see in a

bit Yes. Shut up. Beyond the Night is the GCRN's

latest review podcast. We are covering everything

in the Knight Rider television universe. From

the classic 80s TV series to the 1991 reunion

film, Team Knight Rider, and the 2008 relaunched

series as well. So join TF2 and Mike and Dion

the Music Man as they go in -depth in Beyond

the Night only on GeekCast Radio Network. You

can find Beyond the Night in iTunes and on www

.geekcastradio .com. Yes, Michael, just keep

driving All right, and welcome back. So yesterday

we are going to be discussing Batman be Superman

done in Justice League America 2016 anyways,

so let's just kind of just you know clear the

air see just get some general impressions or

Maybe what you were hoping for going into it

and as you left the theater, you know what you

felt In those instant moments a Greg just walking

out Feelings general thoughts regarding Batman

be Superman. Do you enjoy it? Did you hate it?

I Think pretty much. It's pretty much sum it

up. I kept asking Chuck I think over and over

again to an irritating point. I'm like what the

hell was that What was that I it jumped around

a little bit too much it was all over the place

I didn't understand motivations by some of the

characters. There were logic leaps. There were

scenes that could have been deleted. But I guess

on good notes, the good takeaways I guess, Ben

Affleck I thought was better than I thought he

was going to be. I loved Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman.

I can't wait to see that movie. I'm not gonna

be happy with a Batman or Superman or any other

movie, I don't think. But we'll wait and see.

I thought her theme music was really good. The

music was really good, but it felt very misplaced

a lot of the time. But yeah, that was just my

general overall feelings right there. It was

a mess for me. I even went on Twitter. After

I got home from watching it with Chuck I'm like

I'm gonna go on Twitter and see what other people

are saying what other like oh This was terrible

that was terrible But I went on Twitter and there

were a lot of great reviews for a lot of people

were Sticking up for it and saying it was an

awesome movie. It was so great. I that just blew

my mind Yeah, we can get to that because the

reaction says maybe even interesting degree any

reaction to the reaction has been kind of interesting

but Chuck, thoughts on Batman v Superman? Do

I have to? I guess you don't have to. It'd be

a short podcast, but... Let me start by saying

I did not have very high expectations for it

at all. I know, like, whenever the first trailer

came out, way back when, pretty much as soon

as I saw that, I knew it was gonna be something

that I... Wouldn't really be on board with knowing

how Man of Steel went knowing how Zack Snyder

irritates me to no end But I mean I was excited

for Affleck as Batman actually I was kind of

anxious to see how he would do everything and

I Really didn't have too much of a problem with

him. I don't think he did that bad of a job I

was very very disappointed overall when I walked

out of the movie though like I kind of felt like

someone Robbed me in an alley and took a $10

bill off of me. I'm never gonna get back but

um I guess like the first half of the movie.

I kind of felt like I was on an acid trip I mean

the the weird like Freaky dream sequences and

stuff like I I mean that's fine if you Throw

that in now and then but they didn't really serve

a purpose to me and like it just it was very

very odd and The one I even found completely

infuriating is they reveal it to be a dream inside

of a dream, and that really pissed me off. I

think I know which one you're talking about,

which I wonder if it is a dream or not. Well,

I guess we can see. I think I know the one you're

talking about. I think we can... Yeah, but they

never like went back to it and explained anything.

They didn't explain anything! Yeah, I was gonna

say that was my other problem with the movie.

They really didn't explain things at all. I'm

sorry. I'm sorry. They did explain Batman's origin

again for the 50 millionth time because we needed

to hear that again because we don't all know

that story. That was a waste of seven minutes.

Like, I don't know why... The difference though

is that apparently Bats gave him superpowers

and the ability... I'm flying out of the Batcave.

That moment, I'm like, that's when... That was

the first WTF moment. I leaned over to Greg and

I'm like, fuck is this? Are we in the right movie?

They just did a horrible job to me. Like, obviously

we're comic fans. We know how things should go.

We know the basic story that they're basing this

off of. The nine stories they're basing this

off of. Only nine? But like, they made huge jumps

to people like, you know, that aren't familiar

with these characters as extensively as we are

or as... Comic fans are like they made huge jumps.

They didn't explain things a lot of things are

It's just assumed that you know That oh, yeah

Wonder Woman has a magical sword that can cut

through things that other things can't You're

supposed to know that apparently without any

explanation and is immortal man, right or close

to immortal Yes, but yeah, I mean we can get

in some other stuff. It doesn't write general

reactions so Going into this I I don't know.

I guess I was probably more hopeful than you

guys the trailers Was the second or third one

that gave away everything? I though it was the

second second one. Yeah that one I felt like

was just and you could even I think wasted completely

dead spoil a lot of the More surprising moments

in this good or bad, but you know Zach Siner

is a director. There's stuff about him I like

like I like dawn of the dead. I do like 300 I

i'm mixed feelings towards watchman i think there's

stuff there to enjoy but overall i think he was

mishandled and men of steel which we didn't talk

about i think we've talked about previously on

the podcast i had issues with but i think overall

landed more on the positive than the negative

side so i thought okay with this does seem like

there's something they're trying to do a lot

but i have i have some hopes that it can turn

out and be okay Initial reaction I heard it was

all the fans tweeting saying how great it was

That's when I got worried because I'm like once

you see a company trying to send out fan reaction

at the premiere before critics That's usually

a red flag. That's what they did with fantastic

four. And so that's when I'm like, oh, no, that's

not good All the reviews came out. It was pretty

lambasted by the critics, but I'm thinking okay

Maybe is it as bad as people say it is a pretty

big lightning rod and I Don't think it's void

There's some positives there. I think there are

some things that it can build upon I don't wouldn't

say that they need to scrap everything and start

over again and Rethink what they're doing with

this universe. I do think they need to get sacks

Niner away from Pretty much anyone that's not

Batman because he feels like he treats every

character like Batman though I did like Wonder

Woman we can get into that more so but yeah,

so it just Walking out, I think the words that

you guys use is really good. It was mass. It

is a gigantic mass and just there's a lot of

talk how there's a three hour cut a four hour

cut, even like a five hour cut of this movie,

which is not needs to be an hour cut. Well, I

can see how it does feel like a movie that was

hacked to death because even on the editing standpoint,

like there were very little establishing shots

from scene to scene. Like suddenly we're with

Lex Luther. Now we're with. Clark and Lois Lane

that were like it just went from it was like

someone was changing the channels without even

anything in between it was like they're trying

to take it was like they're trying to find space

wherever they could and I think snacks under

I think visually he has a good idea he were reminds

me a lot of Michael Bay in a sense of like. You

know, he comes from the world of music videos.

He can make things look pretty. He can take images

and he can take what we've seen on the comic

book page and make it represented on the big

screen. But the issue is he's so fixated on things

looking cool that he puts that above of doing

the work to make those images actually matter.

Like, yeah, that looks like from Dark Knight

Returns, but it has none of the same emotional

resonance. It has none of the same motivations

like we mentioned. So I was disappointed in the

sense that it was I thought it was overall. A

failure of a film. Not a complete failure, but

it does feel like a movie that's trying to do

too much. Not because it's cramming in all these

different characters, but it just... I don't

know, it just seems like it. It has too many

concepts and ideas as well as characters. It's

just too much in every element that a film could

use. Yeah, it's a movie of big ideas, but none

of those ideas are really represented. Like,

Zack Snyder needs to realize just because characters

say things aloud doesn't mean that makes your

movie about that. Yeah, like Luther loves talking

about Greek mythology and your life will talk

him out like the role of You have character like

the role Superman and his representation and

like what his role is It's like this godlike

being but the movie never becomes anything like

that. It's just this The reasoning behind the

Batman Superman is so lacking It's it's kind

of telling because my before going into this

my wife's like I don't understand why would Batman

be fighting Superman and the thing is just The

movie doesn't really answer that question very

well. So I think that's the and I got asked that

a lot by by layman people that aren't into comic

books as well. Why are these people fighting?

And I tried to sum it up for them in like, well,

in comic books, usually it's they didn't back

in the day they did. The characters didn't know

each other that well. They would very rarely

run into other comic book characters. And so

we instantly assumed, oh, here's another costume

person. they're a bad guy and they would fight

or they would be set up in a situation where

it looked like they were doing something bad

but somebody else was mistaken. But in this movie,

I don't really understand what each other's beef

was with each other. Like they didn't set that

up enough for me. Personally, I didn't know why

Lex Luthor wanted both of them to fight. I had

no clue other than ominous music playing when

he walked down a hallway, which great music did

not fit the setup for him being bad yet. No.

But yeah, there's a lot of characters where it

was like, okay, why is Batman ticked at Superman?

See, I kind of understood Batman in the sense

of those apocalyptic visions were kind of strange.

But to me, it seems like his fear was that Superman

wasn't that symbol of hope that he's seen pretty

much everyone around him fail. and like basically

abuse power. So his assumption is that that's

what Superman can do. I think he's scared of

the capabilities of Superman. Why he went to

the extent that he did that is not completely

clear. And it's weird that Batman would make

such an assumption because Batman is a man of

hard facts. He wasn't very detective like through

this whole thing. I believe. What was that one

quote, Chuck? I know you're good at the one percent.

If there's even a 1 % chance that he could destroy

all of humanity, we have to take it as an absolute

certainty. Like, that's a huge leap in logic.

That doesn't make any sense. Especially for Batman,

who's a die -hard detective in the books, but

here he isn't. And also he's gun -toting, which...

Yeah, I mean, he was gun -toting in 1989 -12,

though this one more so, and seems like he was

way too eager to kill. a little more than I like.

To go back to your point about the things sort

of being touched on briefly, it reminded me a

lot of when you go into your college course the

first day of class and they give you the syllabus

and you kind of go over your major topics for

the course for that semester. They don't go in

depth in any one topic. They touch on something

and then they go to the next one. It's these

huge Ideas these huge brain -busting ideas like

yeah, we're gonna get into this and then you

talk about it for a minute And then you go to

the next brain -busting idea and it's like, okay

We're gonna talk about this thing, too But it

never goes in depth about any of them It just

jumps to the next big thing and you just feels

like Just feels like that like a whole semester

crammed into one sheet of paper Yeah, and it

just gave me that impression so much like it

was very rushed and things crammed in, nothing

was fleshed out. It was very rushed, but then

they also had things that took up time that we

necessarily didn't need. Like we mentioned the

Batman origin, we didn't need that. They went

over Lois Lane trying to give this mysterious

bullet to this senator and she does it twice.

Once in a bathroom, once outside. Why did we

need both of those scenes left in there? There's

a lot of unnecessary scenes in that. In the middle

there, I remember we were talking like, even

the one Perry White scene was kind of like pointless.

Yeah. Looking for super, looking for Clark all

the time. He's a reporter. He's going to be off

places trying to get reports done. I don't understand

why he's looking for him all the time. Regarding

Clark Kenton too, and that like, I think nothing,

the biggest symbol of the movie's failure, the

biggest issue with the movie, I think is the

character of Superman. And Zack Snyder, I think,

just doesn't understand that character in any

way, shape, or form. Which I know, Chuck, you

probably don't touch upon more so than I can,

but we're talking about why Batman wanted to

go against Superman. Like I said, I can somewhat

understand it, or at least felt they attempted

to provide an explanation there, how well that

was done, or if it was logical. That's questionable,

but with Superman, not to give spoilers away,

but why he fights Batman is another hand, another

issue, but his initial problems with Batman is

like because he's a vigilante, but Superman in

itself is committing very eerily similar actions.

He's doing nearly the same thing, you know, with

the whole African scene to me is problematic

on a number of different ways where it seems

like he is consumed with saving Lois Lane, but

so I don't know he has no caring about anything

else like the after effect of his actions or

like There's like it's like if you could save

her. Why didn't you save the other guy? I don't

know. It just seems like Superman as a whole

he's lifeless in this he has no conviction I

don't know what he stands for. Hope, it says

it right on his chest. Well, there's actually

a thing where he says, when he points to his

chest and he says, this doesn't mean anything

anymore. I'm like, you're right, because it doesn't.

So I don't know. It never did. Because you chose

it not to mean anything anymore. Well, that's

a good point, too, because I was thinking really

like, this movie, when we first heard about it

coming out, it already had a huge advantage to

it. And that advantage is this intriguing idea

of exploring the opposing philosophies of these

two great characters. You have two titans of

DC comics that do things very differently in

their own respect. You have this idea of pushing

those two philosophies together and exploring

the contrast between them. That was a huge advantage

they had to work with. they even failed at that

because I mean throughout the entire movie the

two characters behave remarkably similar like

you touched on yeah and like I even looked at

it the other way but Batman accusing him of these

things and he's being extremely hypocritical

he's branding people with bat symbols and yeah

he's destroying all sorts of things when he's

doing chase scenes and he's got huge guns mounted

on his bat wing and on his batmobile and everything

and so I'm like he's being extremely hypocritical

as well so I felt like that whole concept was

just pulled right out from under them. They couldn't

even explore those contrasting philosophies because

two characters are so much like each other. And

it's like, that's fine if that's what you're

going for in the movie, but that's not what you

were advertising. Like, you're advertising Batman

versus Superman, Boy Scout versus Dark Knight,

and you didn't do that. You made them the same.

So it's like, pick one or the other. Don't, like...

You know don't be conflicting in what you're

trying to do That moment when like you when you're

financing these people plays it should feel Inevitable

in the sense where you're at a crossroads that

you can no longer go back to like they got to

a point where this has to happen and It doesn't

feel that way for either of them. Yes Superman's

gonna force into it. But even Batman it's like

why he finally gets to that point that he does

it doesn't seem legitimate and Going into the

character of Batman kind of like the the moment

that like It seems the public starts to go against

him because of actions that occur like I doesn't

seem like why I didn't understand if anything

that should kind of Shift public opinion any

other way or like I don't see why Batman would

see that as the point of no return And it I don't

know it even the fight itself the Batman v Superman

fight. I thought it was really Like boring boring

it was very slow i agree with you then like the

action in general i felt like some of it was

some of the stuff with. Do you say it was okay

and batman fighting in the warehouse yeah but

that them and it just seemed like a lot of throwing

and a lot of punching and a lot of dragging.

And there wasn't like the funny the thing i kept

thinking about was like the flash arrow fight.

From that TV show and I felt that was at least

more creative of what what was doing than anything

in that fight like there's something that man

did but overall it was just there is no. Last

week we're talking about young justice and chop

right up like how they would be more tactical

with their abilities and. kinda go about the

action in an interesting way. With this, it's

just like, I'm gonna punch you, and you're gonna

punch me, and that's the extent of it. Throw

you through stuff. Yeah, and it's not like Avengers,

where you first see these characters going up

against each other, and you get this, like, swelling

moment where you're, like, so emotional, because

finally you get to see these two characters come

together on the big screen. Like, you saw...

iron man and cap come together that was a fantastic

moment for me even when i replay those the first

avengers movie i still get my like a little lift

in my chest just to see them on screen together

but these two i it just it didn't do anything

for me i got no emotional rise from them and

then to see them fight so pitifully back and

forth that's a good point too like if you compare

it to say civil war that's coming out in a month

or so. Kind of goes back to my previous point,

you're giving the fans a clear option, a preconceived

notion going into the movie, either you're with

Team Cap or you're with Team Iron Man. And depending

on how things play out in the movie, you could

be reassured in your opinion or you could switch

sides if you see things differently. I feel like

people were robbed of that in Batman vs Superman.

Because the two characters became so similar.

So it's like it's it's good compared to Marvel

movies like that. I mean It's just shows how

much different it is. I think ultimately a big

reason for that is because I Think what more

Marvel movies? Yeah, you can probably they're

not perfect. There's issues you can certainly

pick out from each each film, but I think what

they've been really great at doing and I think

they've made a point is they are very protective

of their characters and making sure that what

they feel their characters are are represented

on screen in the best ways possible. And the

sense of after I leave a Thor movie, you know,

even if I don't know Thor going in afterwards,

I understand Thor. I get his ideas, his motivation,

his philosophy, who he is as a person. I don't

feel like I understand that with anyone in this

movie. So... Like, I don't have, like, that attachment

to these characters, even though I, yeah, I'm

a Batman fan, I enjoy Superman, Wonder Woman,

yeah, on the superficial level, yeah, seeing

them come together should be great, but since

I don't know who these characters are specifically,

that moment just seems, it doesn't have any gravitas

to it. It doesn't, like, I remember seeing Avengers

coming together, and it's, maybe it's unfair

to compare them, but it's hard not to. When that

you have that spinning shot and it felt like

the movie did its work to make that moment matter

and it made me like seem like this is. You want

to share and people literally shared when we

did that spinning shot of all the vendors together

and it was just you know it was it felt like

okay this is what I want to see with this one

all three came together was like they don't know

each other they're just like oh so we're. This

is happening. So I just did not have the same

effect and that that kind of was I think I lost

on it the dawning of the justice was really just

I don't know an afternoon snooze a little it

also hurt it in that scene because no one really

knew where Wonder Woman came from either like

she's just appearing in random scenes intermittently

throughout the movie and He never really gave

Any explanation of like where she's coming from?

She should have had the origin story not Batman

Yeah, exactly and like they should have they

should have like brought her along more so leading

up to that moment so that would have a bigger

impact but I feel like it just kind of fell flat

because you have these two guys that were just

wanted to one guy wanted to kill the other one

and Suddenly doesn't now and then you have this

girl that nobody knows it's just like it's just

a moment that felt totally flat See, I guess

I was okay with the treatment of one woman I

think yeah, they could have made me got more

into it, but I really like gilded out in that

role of it and I did like the chemistry between

her and and been out like and I thought the photo

that they showed was at least enough to understand

that there's more to her than then she leads

on so I wasn't As I didn't have as big of issue

with her per se. I mean it could have been done

better like I agree but I thought like I it does

have me I will say I am super excited for the

Wonder Woman movie because there were little

touches here and there that I thought were great

like seeing she gets like punched in the face

and then she gets up and like she's in sparks

and like wipes the blood away from her mouth

or something like that. She does feel like I'm

excited to see what Gail Gondak can do as Wonder

Woman. I do think that she can be a great character

and it's funny when I was There's that photo

you see him like, that guy looks a lot like Chris

Pine. I thought the same thing. I was like, wow,

that is uncanny. And I'm like, oh, you're an

idiot. It is Chris Pine. But yeah, so that's

true. Were there any, I know we talked a lot

of negatives, were there any positives that you

took out of this that, anything you thought,

okay, I did enjoy? That aspect of it. Amy Adams

in the bathtub. But then they disappointed me

again by CGI -ing a lot of stuff. That was a

very risque scene. I have no idea why it took

place in the bathroom, other than just to see

her almost naked. That's the only reason. Ben

Affleck, I thought, was better than he was going

to be. What did you think of regarding Ben Affleck?

His overall look, the costume, the... The Batmobile

looked pretty cool, but it was tough because

it only came out at night, so it was tough to

see all of its features, but it had a cool shape

to it and everything. The suit, I don't know,

seemed kind of bulky to me, a little bit too

bulky. I don't know. I know they're trying to

go for the Frank Miller version, and he's a lot

more bulky in that. What about the voice? That

I didn't mind that but it did sound a little

like we said that before an earlier episode that

it is a bit weird when he's going When he's saying

oh, I thought you brought her When he's being

serious it works, but he's trying to be humorous

or something like that which didn't happen often

There's not much humor in this movie at all.

No, I think Mrs. Kent had the only humorous line

I'm your friend's son. I could tell because of

the cape Yeah, I did I did find a couple of positive

things Like you said before, Dan, there was a

lot of great potential. The ideas, the concepts

that they were trying to explore, but never got

to. Something that really intrigued me was what

they were trying to explore with Batman. How

an obsessed mind, when it continues down that

path so fiercely... become sort of a fractured

mind. And I would have liked to see them explore

that a little bit more because it looked like

they were trying to show you that he's kind of

being consumed by this irrational fear he has

and he's just getting obsessed and he's training,

he's staying up all hours studying and everything.

Thank God we had an 80s montage for that one.

Right, exactly. That was ridiculous too. Let's

train really hard like Rocky for two weeks to

fight Superman. He's trying to pull the tire

and Superman's pulling the whole truck. Our ship.

Yeah. But I know like, yeah, the ship with the

big anchor chain. Which was sideways, so I'm

like, you can't just... I did like that scene

with the sort of the fracturing of the obsessed

mind. I thought that was kind of cool and everything,

but they should have... you know kind of seen

it out a little bit more but um I'm trying to

think of what else was that Batmobile where the

the going back in how it went back into the back

cave underneath the water that was pretty cool

yeah because it doesn't take place at the at

the Wayne Manor it takes place like Wayne Manor

is a burnt husk or whatever and we're in some

ultra modern thing by a lake yeah like a guest

house or something like that yeah I actually

thought It might surprise you, but I actually

thought Superman's character wasn't as disappointing

in this for me as it was in Man of Steel. I found

more fault in this one with other characters,

which I could mention later, trying to avoid

the spoilers, but I didn't have a huge, huge

problem with Superman. The scene with his dad

could have been good, but it was kind of, it

was a little confusing. I know what they were

going for and everything, but... Yeah, that's

about it. I don't know of any more positive things

I took away from it. Clark Kent's parents are

really okay with him killing people. It just

seems like they're the worst parents ever. You

were talking about before how there's no hope

left, and I was going to say that starts with

his parents. If they had stuck more to the Kent

family from the comics or even from some other...

shows and stuff that we've seen. That's where

Superman's upbringing comes from. Not from Krypton,

not his Kryptonian values. That's from the Kents.

That stuff comes from the Kents. When you have

a mother saying, you don't know this world anything,

you don't have to do anything for them, and you

have a father saying, yeah, you should have let

all the kids in the school bus die. That's why

he's the way he is. It's not appealing. I don't

understand the draw to this by Snyder. Not to

get more on Superman, but I think part of my

issue with Superman is that he's a character

that in this Ant -Man of Steel, he listens, he

doesn't say anything. I can't even tell you,

give you a major characteristic of Henry Cavill

in the role. I've seen Henry Cavill in other

things and Man vs. Uncle where he's very charismatic,

charming. I think he could even be a great game

to bond because he is British. But in this, I

feel like he's got nothing to do. I feel like

we'd never get a scene with him where we understand

what he thinks being Superman means I understood

why that didn't happen man of steel because he's

becoming this character But yeah, we see a montage

of like what the world sees them as but I'd never

that never saw what superman thinks superman

means he thinks it means getting into the tub

fully closed with low slime yeah yeah like i

do think him and amy adams have good chemistry

i do like amy adams a lot in the role though

some some things she did Requestable like why

would you throw that in the water for no apparent

reason and then almost all right, whatever There

were a lot of questionable things like that Yeah,

like why what why would Batman put a tracer if

he knows where exactly where they're going? I'm

gonna chase after them anyway Yeah, yeah Or why

would he put a tracer and then attack them and

why not attack the ship before it hits land where

you? Have more of an advantage because you have

a plane But that's whatever. But that like we

can also it's going to you know where it's going

to end up with Lex Luthor anyway. So just go

to the Lex Luthor warehouse. But I did like most

like I said, everything a roving roving around

Superman. We even talked about him at all, but

we're a little bit which was Jesse Eisberg against

Lex Luthor. I don't under I feel. Like, it's

unfair to blame Jesse Eisenberg for what he was,

because I think it's really a script issue. And

I saw people saying, oh, Brian Karunson should

have been in the role, but... That would have

been awesome. I think he would have been a great

Lex Luthor, but the thing is, if he's saying

those same lines, I don't know how you behave

any differently than what the way Jesse Eisenberg

was behaving. How do you say the red culture

coming and not seem like a crazy person? Think

someone said it feels like the Lux Luther and

Joker were supposed to be in the same movie and

they just combined them into one character I

think that like you see he's almost like more

Matt Hatter or the regular ish. I thought like

he was effective at doing what the Snyder wanted

him to do. I just don't know I get people who

like Lex Luthor and think this isn't Lex Luthor

because it really isn't he's his leader of this

no mogul this CEO who's so obviously insane who's

gonna trust him with anything i guess like who's

gonna give them these like government secrets

when it's like this guy clearly is off his rocker

even around people and normally um i thought

i mean i understand where some people are coming

from where they say they liked his character

in this and yeah he made a good villain he was

he had a good Character but the character was

not Lex Luthor. No, I mean it was a good villain,

but it wasn't like Luther That's my issue with

it. Like if you're gonna change the tone of something

that much Then why not just use a different character

like there's there's a difference between people

having different takes on a character like if

you think about You know Jack Nicholson Heath

Ledger and all the people that have played the

Joker over the years like They all have different

takes on it, but it's always still the Joker

and You recognize it, and you know immediately

who it is But when you're changing it this much

it makes no sense like why didn't you just pick

a different character? Greg like you mentioned

I still don't understand what his goal was what

his motivations were and again That's not a performance

issue. That's a script problem or an editing

problem And I would be another supposed to be

like a three -hour cut and actually and somewhat

looking forward to seeing that cut. I feel like

another 30 minutes could fix a lot of this movie's

problems or another hour, or like Greg said,

maybe less of an hour, where you just have a

Batman movie. If you just cut out everything

and made this just a Batman movie, you probably

would end up with a much better film. But anything

else in general before we get into more of the

spoilers and specifics? I just want to talk about

the... You mentioned the script a little bit

before, and... David Goyer was actually the writer

on this and it kind of surprised me because he's

written some pretty good stuff and he happened

to write a lot of things that I like and You

know, obviously I think everybody knows I'm a

huge blade fan and everything. He worked on all

those movies but I felt like I felt like even

this like I could see sort of Snyder's influence

on you know maybe he was sort of handcuffing

Goyer with like the script if you know what I

mean like he he kind of was like tying his hands

like limiting him on what he could do because

Snyder wanted things a certain way like I feel

like Goyer could write a really good script for

something like this but I feel like he was kind

of held back by what Snyder wanted to see and

it's a shame because Like I said, I really enjoy

a lot of David Goyer stuff, but this, you know,

I kind of hope he doesn't catch too much slack

for this, because I don't know entirely if it's

his fault, but... He's also, there's another

writer too, and I apologize, it escapes me, but

he wrote, he's worked with Affleck in the past

and Argo, which, and like, and I honestly wonder

too, if it is a script issue, or with a movie

like this, it does seem like... there are a lot

of different cooks in the kitchen as I said maybe

too many folks and too many people wanting to

do too many different things and the point where

you start with man of steel 2 then you add in

Batman make a Batman v Superman then you add

in Lex Luthor and then you like you end up having

this like hodgepodge of different people wanting

different things and then it's you can't do any

of it you try to do all of it so you do none

of it and Yeah, it shows you just how important

editing is and I think that could be this movie's

major flaw is Just in the editing bay Getting

chopped the heck or it could be a problem where

they weren't able to figure out I don't know

if they're the problems are many I guess and

I guess it's hard to pick just one person to

say this person but I guess at the end of the

day I have to you kind of put it on a slider

because a lot of the issues with this I see issues

similar issues with this other film so it's kind

of like why I feel like he might be the main

reason the movie didn't succeed like it could

have. Also, Goyer worked on the entire Dark Knight

trilogy, which is surprising, too, because that

was some of the best writing I've seen. But this

is like, I just don't get it. Like, it's totally

opposite of that. That could also explain why

they can get Batman, okay, but they can't do

Superman. Yeah. So, do you have any other thoughts,

general thoughts, Greg? Uh, no, not really, no,

sorry. Okay. Besides spoiler stuff, but... All

right. Anything else, Chuck? Um, I guess... Well,

I'll save it for the spoiler stuff because I

think it probably would make a little bit more

sense there but um Like I said my piece about

Jesse Eisenberg, so that's fine, but uh I'll

talk a little bit about doomsday later when we

explore that yeah, so Boiler warning from now

on and we are going to get into specifics. So

there's no more complaining We've not watched

the movie go back watch it. Well, we wait for

DVD and blu -ray and then come back and finish

this but we're gonna get into specifics and then

Well, what where do you write right there? Let's

start with doomsday. What were your thoughts

on? I know it was already kind of spoiled in

the trailers. But what did you want to say regarding

that character? It was kind of strange that they

Like, I made reference before, they're like,

using nine stories to combine in this movie.

Like, obviously, Dark Knight returns, now you

bring in Death of Superman, all these things.

But I realized that they couldn't do the actual

origin story of Doomsday because it would probably

be too confusing for most people to try to explain

that. I don't have a problem with that. I'm on

board with the fact that they just made it, you

know... Zod's body yeah the first one it makes

a lot of sense. It's a good move there I don't

that I agree. I think that makes but what my

problem is with it is like it seems like They

didn't give enough of an explanation of what

was happening like they were they were alluding

to certain things like You know you have the

computer on the Kryptonian ship saying that this

is an ancient Kryptonian procedure, and it's

been outlawed by a the Kryptonian council and

everything and they never say why they never

explore those things like why was this an ancient

practice for what purpose did they want to create

this monster why was it banned you know why would

you make reference to these things if you aren't

going to flesh them out more like it's just it

didn't make any sense it was just like the explanation

was like He was born to kill you. This is your

doomsday. Like what like that's not an explanation.

That's not an introduction to me. It's just like

a It's just like a poor sort of vehicle to introduce

your final boss and it was just it was really

really disappointing because Again, I was kind

of like disoriented. I'm like, okay, what where

did this monster come from? They kept saying

it was some kind of defect But I'm like, what's

the defect the fact that they Lex Luthor put

some of his blood on his face Yeah, like that

super advanced computer can't figure out. Oh

somebody just put blood on this guy's face. That

isn't his Like they were that's what I mean.

They're hinting at it. They're like introducing

foreign DNA or organic matter or whatever but

it just seemed like a like a fake way of doing,

you know what I mean? It's kind of like an old

90s cartoon where they just gloss over this explanation

to get to the fight quicker. I don't know. I

feel a lot of this and you see we talked about

it with Wayne Manor being kind of destroyed and

it seems like a lot of stuff will be filled in

later in like other movies. Maybe I've heard

rumors that like this. Kryptonian ship is maybe

beginning a brainiac later down the line or something

like that. So if that's kind of the idea is that

they were going to fill in those gaps in films

down the line, would that, I don't know, fix

that issue for you? Would that make you enjoy

this movie a little more if it's purposely holding

back for future movies? Or is that problematic

in a sense where by doing that, you're kind of

ruining this movie now just to planned seats

for the future? Yeah, I think so. I think the

latter because you're leaving the audience befuddled.

Like the only reason I was able to realize or

anyone was able to realize who this character

was is if you're kind of familiar with Doomsday

even a little bit. If you know Doomsday is the

guy that killed Superman in the comics, like

you're like, okay, he made a reference to Doomsday.

This must be Doomsday. But like for the average

people out there, It's just this insane monster

that was a resurrection of Zod like that's that's

what people would think and To me they could

have gave a better explanation That they were

already hinting at but then flesh out like if

you're saying this is an ancient Kryptonian Procedure

that creates this monster like well what purpose

did it have like was this sort of like their?

Destroyer armor like on Asgard that Odin has

with this was this their last resort of protection

against invading empires or something like that

like that would have been cool to have sort of

an explanation like that and Then say yeah, we're

gonna unleash you name unleash this thing, but

they didn't touch on anything like Lex Apparently

learns all this knowledge of a hundred thousand

worlds. It's them and They didn't share any of

it like just teach me up next scene. Yeah, right

I like I definitely say I wasn't I didn't have

as much a problem with that in the sense of It

does seem like at the end of the day just like

I'm trying to create the super weapon and then

there's not much more I was okay that they didn't

maybe go more into that ritual I think the general

audience maybe be able to get just the bits of

the fact that this is this former Zod now kind

of trying to be like a Frankenstein's monster

type of situation and not go beyond that but

I agree that could have been much more effective

if if you kind of had that background knowledge

and knew exactly what is the purpose of this

character where it's coming from and how it just

kind of appears and I do think that uh The line

of him learning all those war worlds I'm guessing

that's where he finds out a part about dark side

because it seems like he's aware of dark side

by the end of the movie and What he's saying

the Batman and I don't know if that means he

always knew about him or he found out because

of this computer I get that and again dreamt

about it Did you guys happen to see the deleted

scene that popped up online? No Was it an apology?

It was Zack Snyder just sobbing and weeping.

Well, there's a clip of it was Henry Cavill and

Ben Affleck. They're talking to someone and they

bring up the fact that the reviews have been

really bad. Just zooms in on Ben Affleck. You

see him just looking really sad. Just like slowly.

I'll show it to you guys later. He's like, damn

it, another superhero movie where they're ragging

on me. But yeah, in the deleted scene, they show

it's another scene of Lex in the ship and he

kind of like comes upon this chamber and there's

this weird creature in there this weird character

with this big helmet thing with these horns and

he looks like he's about 12 feet tall or something

and there's a box a cube that's sort of like

Morphing and it's very similar to the thing we

saw on the clip of cyborg. Yeah, I mean the email

I got that was amazing and if you've seen the

Animated movie Justice League war or if you start

to read the new 52 stuff and you kind of realize

that Cyborg was created with like a mother box

Yeah, it looks to be the same thing that this

character is manipulating and a lot of people

in line are saying that this is a general Steppenwolf

from Apocalypse one of Darkseid's generals so

and Everyone was like screaming. They're like

why didn't you leave that in like it would have

explained things so much better you know like

why he knows Darkseid's coming because like when

he When he makes reference that at the end no

one knows what the hell he's talking about like

who's coming What are you talking about like

if they left this scene and no it would have

offered some explanation of what he saw So he

was just hanging out in that ship the entire

time he was he was somehow in this chamber and

he was like manipulating these parts and doing

something maybe it was maybe he wasn't physically

in the ship maybe Lex was just seeing him sort

of like a hollow projection in the things that

he was learning from you know the AI but I think

they should have left it in to be honest if you

see it you could kind of comment on it whether

you agree or not but it was interesting definitely

a big worry going into this was like they're

gonna put all these characters in this movie

and then we kind of saw how they did that what

is what did you think of that moment of the email

with all the little scenes that was like the

most giant shoehorn that i've ever seen used

to just kind of pry things into a tight spot

um yeah it was awful i wish they would have just

left it out to be honest because like they even

i mean bruce makes a comment at the end at the

funeral to Wonder Woman where he says, we need

to find the others like you. Maybe they could

have just kept it at that. Where they say like,

you know, I've been hearing about others like

you, we need to find them or something. That

whole email just felt completely forced. Especially

we talked about the cyborg one like what the

hell was happening there like their shit floating

in the air And like bonding to his body like

no one knows what that is Okay, like no one like

your average person doesn't know what's happening

there, and they're like who the hell is that

guy? And I don't feel like it's a good Like you

know there are good ways to sort of stir up questions

and people and make them intrigued to want to

see more but then there's a bad where you take

it too far and they just Become completely confused

and disoriented because there's so many things

like that see like Then there's also the Aquaman

scene where he's just kind of staring into camera

awkwardly and then all of a sudden folks is Trident

which feels like forever. It's like yeah Is he

eyes adjusting is like what's going on? I feel

like that was just to get like Like there was

a in the contract Jason Momoa it was like I need

at least 11 seconds of screen time and like that's

how they had to get it And what's kind of funny

though, it's like I'm gonna have these files

on my computer and all these videos and make

sure that before I do that, I'm also gonna create

cool symbols for each one of them. Right, exactly.

And save them on my computer that way, because

that makes sense. Why was Wonder Woman, why did

she have a WW? Did someone already name her that?

Like why, what is, I don't get that. I can understand

like the star, but yeah, it's like, nah. Again,

Cyborg had a C. Yeah, yeah. It's like, why would

you, you're gonna give them, why not just go

by their names? Like, why give them symbols?

Well, I guess someone named Aquaman, apparently,

because that was the A symbol that he has on

his belt or whatever, but... Mean flash is an

obvious one with the lightning bolt But and also

flash was kind of weird looking he is he like

is flash in this movie supposed to be like Mexican

with facial hair because that's kind of what

he looked like because there was somebody coming

out During one of Batman's dreams was that supposed

to be flash as well? I was believe it's supposed

to be flash It seems like he is also like some

flash from the future in the sense that like

his He was like a helmet almost. Yeah, it was

like an armor almost. Yeah, and like with like

a more of a tech look to him and kept talking

about Lois Lane and he'd always been right about

him. Yeah, like he was saying Lois Lane is the

key. You were right about him. You've always

been right about him. And then they never went

back to that for the rest of the movie. They

never touched on it. Yeah. And it's like... Was

that the dream within the dream you're talking

about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like he wakes up

and sees that and I'm like, oh, cool. The Flash

is trying to... time travel to warn him about

something. I'm like, that's actually really cool.

This movie could turn out really well. And they

never went back to that. And infuriatingly, they

show him wake up again. I'm like, damn it. It

didn't really even happen. I'm like, what the

hell? Did it happen? I guess that's the question.

It seems like it would have to have happened.

But why wasn't he affected by it? He didn't react

to that dream at all. That's I again that's like

he didn't he didn't ponder it and say was that

a warning from the future You know, why is Lois

Lane the key? Who is Lois Lane? Unless that's

unless that's kind of when it gets to the end

when he asked which he asked him why he feels

like they need a team That's why he thinks he

feels and they need a team because of that warning

he got though He doesn't seem all that concerned

with going after Lois Lane, right? But what about

the other dreams where and that's where that's

where I was very confused During this whole thing

too. Like are these just haunting dreams that

he's having or is he actually having premonitions?

Yeah, because why why are we seeing parademons?

Why are we seeing a gigantic Omega symbol in

the sand in the desert? Like are these premonitions?

He's having like it doesn't make any sense Why

would he be dreaming these things if he hasn't

seen anything like that? And I think I get that

goes back to probably something in the future

where there are you know, that's They're piping

in premonitions to him somehow. I don't know

maybe but like what it would make more sense

for Lex Luthor to be having those dreams Because

of the things that he saw on the ship. Yeah,

you know what I mean? Like yeah, they should

have had him sort of get knocked out or something

from the Influx of information into his brain

and like while he's laying there. He's sort of

having these Premonitions where he can see things

that would have made so much more sense to me

because because I guess the thing with the visions

You had the one and then you had the one with

him Floating with bats around him up and which

I guess was a vision. Yeah, the worst one I hated

the most was when he was at the mausoleum and

the blood was coming out of thing of his mother's

tomb and then this Giant freaky like foolish

bat came out and bit him on the neck and is that

supposed to be man bat unnecessary to me i'm

like what does that prove like i don't know there

were little things i did like what they did in

the sense of setting things up like with wayne

manor being burnt to the crisp or with like the

spray paint on the Robin suit like that like

that because it doesn't necessarily pertain to

what's going on right now so it's not affecting

the actions in the movie so I think that's okay

and it kind of gets into the psyche of why Batman

is the way is like that stuff I felt was fine

but yeah the email thing which was so ridiculous

like there's so many things with that to seem

ridiculous a Batman's very trusting of her already

which is Interesting and the simple thing I thought

was really funny and it's so like I'm gonna check

my email and watch these video YouTube clips

Which and two I guess one of my issues with the

entire logic of the movie is that? so Jesse Eisenberg,

sorry Lex Luthor wants I guess he wants Superman

dead But he also wants Batman dead or he wants

Batman to do it in the sense like the whole thing

with the kryptonite like It's so strange to me

like everything around it it like why If you

look at the logic of it, so he left Luther is

bringing it in to try to kill Superman But he

also know Batman wants to kill Superman. So it

seems like he in a way wants Batman to also take

it and Help him find out ways to kill Superman.

I think that whole thing he was setting up Batman

because like he said he sent those checks where

he wrote with the red crayon and everything and

if I could Pat myself about on the back a little

bit when the trailer came out we talked about

that meeting where Lex walks up to the two of

them and he says Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent meeting

and You know, he shakes Clark's hand and he's

like wow, that is a firm grip You should not

pick a fight with this guy and he's looking at

Bruce and I think I mentioned at that time it

appears like he He already knows both of their

identities. Yeah, like before the movie even

takes place He knows all this Yeah, and it seemed

like that was the case because he was pulling

the strings the entire time which was kind of

cool like that was a neat way to sort of do it,

but I Don't know these issues. You don't know

why he's pulling the strings, right? What is

his motivation for doing that like I? Don't really

know like and it doesn't make sense to me for

him to unleash doomsday Because he doesn't know

what he can because do they could have easily

just killed him, right? Which he tried to do

but Superman jumped in the way. Yeah Which then

also leads to Chuck? I know you talked to me

before about also set up this whole thing of

Zack Snyder not knowing Superman's powers to

To me it seemed like they were extremely inconsistent

throughout the movie I know it might be a bold

statement, but it just seems to me like Zack

Snyder has a lack of understanding of Superman.

Stop right there. That is a complete sentence.

Say no more. It seems like he has a lack of understanding

of not only Superman's character, but also his

complete power set. The one that aggravated me

the most, I think, was when they had the Senate

hearing, when he had the little trial. with the

senator from Kentucky there and he came in and

stood at the little podium and you had the guy

that used to work for Bruce Wayne in the hover

round that Lex Lisa gave him and this scene really

bothered me in particular because this explosion

goes off right and everyone in the room is just

pretty much vaporized and killed instantly but

to me like Superman's reaction time and his speed

are extremely, extremely fast, right? So they're

almost as fast as the Flash, not quite. But to

me, Superman could have contained this explosion.

He would have heard the click of the thing starting

to go off. And I know he said he wasn't looking.

He kind of got caught off guard. But I mean,

he hears Lois pounding on the... concrete under

the water in the middle of a fight so he's in

a court hearing and he can't hear the click of

a bomb and within you know tens of thousands

of a second he could have like basically moved

over there he could have used super breath to

blow the explosion out through the wall minimize

the casualties there's any number of things he

could have done It just goes to show you how

quiet those hover rounds are. Yeah, you really

don't know they're there. I mean, he could have

grabbed that and flew it out through the wall

as it was exploding. And, you know, maybe two

people die instead of, you know, 50 or 60, whatever.

It just seemed like sort of a lack of understanding

there of his power set. Definitely contained

that to some degree based on everything we've

read and everything we've seen in animated series

and Even other fights like the Batman scene the

fight with Batman. I mean obviously he's under

a little bit of influence of the the kryptonite

gas but we see him sort of recover from that

and You see like you see Bruce basically punching

him and then all of a sudden like his face becomes

rigid and he's just not moving at all when he's

hitting him and it's like okay he has all of

his strength back and as we've seen him do so

many times with like Lex Luthor's power suit

in the comics or in the cartoons where he could

grab his suit and just rip it off of him and

it's game over like all his trinkets are gone

all of his little toys but he really looks like

he's holding back like he's almost letting Batman

beat him for some reason like it just seems inconsistent

throughout the fight and even to the point where

Batman has him beat he has his foot on his throat

he's got the kryptonite spear ready to stab him

by this time should have recovered again from

the kryptonite gas so you realize the spear is

probably severely weakening him since he's holding

it that close but just a little bit later in

the movie picks up the spear and flies, you know,

almost full speed into doomsday with incredible

force. So, I mean, I know they're trying to show

him like, you know, sort of indomitable will

where he's like really pushing forward, but it

just seemed like really inconsistent. And it

was just seemed like kind of forced so that it

could make Batman look like in a chance and like,

and toss the spear to Wonder Woman. Right. Right

it's like you have another character that can

fly and jump ridiculously far like I don't know

it just seemed really inconsistent and well and

even like the reasoning behind him having to

like to save his mother, but It feels like he

should be able just to find her and say like

without Batman's help like he can where Lois

was in Africa and he came and saved her nearly

immediately, but Like his mother could have like

literally whispered like Clark I'm here and like

he would have like flown to her no words she

was like but that you bring up a good point with

his mother because that's where I saw a fault

in Batman's motivation somewhat because like

You you look at how he's hated Superman for was

like 18 months. I think this takes place after

he's hated superman for 18 months he wants to

hunt him down he even makes the comment about

his ancestors being hunters you know he just

wants to find this guy and end it and kill him

and he finally gets him pinned down and has him

right where he wants them to finish him off and

just because he finds out that his mother was

kidnapped, he abandons that plan. That makes

no sense to me whatsoever. To be fair, they had

the same name. But also, who says that? The way

he even says it, Superman, he's like, you don't

go kill Martha. It was like a nervous tick. He

was like, why did you say that name? Freaking

out. Yeah. But also, who says that? Why not say,

my mom is in trouble. Why say, it does seem like

that's a nitpick. Right it is but but no. Yeah,

that does seem like your mom's your mom's also

named Martha My brother said every mother should

now be named Martha so we could have world peace

That is that is true that's where his logic kind

of goes out and people like People make fun of

Superman because his weakness is a rock. Well,

Batman's weakness is the word Martha, because

he abandoned his entire plan because Clark said

his mother was in danger. And then at the end,

he gives a speech like, oh, I failed him. What

do you mean? It just seems like he has our best

friends forever. And suddenly it's like, oh,

what did you fail him? That was super questionable.

But I guess it would be funny if we didn't talk

about it yet. Though it's obviously that it's

not really the death of Superman, but were you

surprised that they actually did kill Superman?

Yeah, I was kind of surprised about that. I wasn't

I was more surprised on how they killed him.

Yeah because a Doomsday shouldn't have had his

arm cut off by Wonder Woman's sword so if she

could cut off his his hand? Why can't you just

stab him in the heart and we'd be all over this

thing and don't need the spear to begin with?

Yeah, cut off his head. Yeah. I actually, I was

talking to some people that didn't really know

anything about the comics and they said that

part angered them because they're like, why?

They used all this heavy artillery, nothing could

puncture his skin. And one of them was just like,

swing, and cuts his entire hand off, which is

like four feet thick. Yeah. Like, how do you

make that jump? Like, I don't know. Yeah, and

then he gets stabbed by The the bone that's still

coming through and stay so that that was a little

weird for me One thing didn't surprise me though.

I I like actually like maybe I could add this

to the things that I liked about I liked that

they explored the death of Superman thing Yeah,

and I hope they continue that into a next film

where they maybe they explore some issues of

like world without a Superman Yeah, like that

whole story that came out in the 90s But like

what aggravated me sort of was like The reason

he was able to Like we sort of went into his

little Kryptonian coma in the comics where he's

wearing the recovery suit like the whole thing

behind that was He's wearing the black recovery

suit to help him absorb more solar radiation

and disperse it evenly over his body to heal

him And it's like they're showing him burying

him He has no exposure to the sunlight at all.

Like, how is he going to heal from this? Like,

I don't understand, like... I mean, they show

him healing from the nuclear blast in outer space,

which shouldn't even have scratched him, by the

way, which is another inconsistency. But it is

kind of funny, he can survive a nuclear blast,

but the bone thing is going right through him.

Right, exactly. Like, I don't know, but... Yeah,

I don't feel like that was very consistent either.

that i mean i i was surprised actually to kill

him i in the sense of like i was waiting for

the moment to come up where and it kind of does

where you see like the dust rising up in the

air that he's not really dead but i was like

wow they're really they're really going for this

aren't they that that was a little bit surprising

i thought like when you see him bring out the

newspaper that was gonna be like superman lives

or something was that in superman returns yeah

they show the paper i think they had two different

papers yeah they were like we're not sure which

one to print or whatever so yeah yeah i don't

i don't know if there's anything else specifically

spoiler wise you wanted to bring up um i wanted

to bring up Just two more things one positive

and one negative This is my final positive thing

that I liked about the movie and that was Alfred

I thought I actually liked his character a lot

I thought he was one of the few guys that actually

had his shit together and had his head on straight

I thought he was He was a positive influence

on Bruce even though Bruce didn't listen to him

as much as he should have but Alfred was sort

of a wise, you know Sort of the wise ancient

one so to speak or like he knew Bruce was going

down this path of obsession and he was trying

to talk him out of it and everything and Since

when did Alfred become such a techie like he

was like helping build the suit But I mean that's

I really don't care about that, but I did like

his character I like him throughout the movie

in the different scenes. Plus Jeremy Irons is

always great in everything he does. Yeah, he

was good So I liked that a lot The other thing

I would mention, this is a nitpicky thing, but

it's something that kind of bugged me. I mentioned

this to Greg after the movie, but in the beginning,

when Bruce Wayne goes to the party at the Luther

Mansion, and he goes down the stairs, he finds

the server room of Lex's top secret encrypted

files with all these servers. which is in a small

room across from the kitchen with glass doors

that aren't locked at all. I don't understand

that at all. That doesn't make any sense strategically.

And then wouldn't it be easier for him, for Bruce,

to then dress up as a server or a waiter at this

thing so he'd have easier and be closer to the

server to get to it instead of... I guess he'd

probably have two, unless he had some sort of

makeup or something like that. Well, we've seen

him in other things doing, yeah. It does that.

I was kind of like, they're just right around

the corner. All right, well. It's like, wow,

you really have no security at all, do you? It's

just weird because that was something I noticed,

too, with Lex. It seemed like it had a social

network influence because he was almost sort

of a... Mark Zuckerberg type of character where

he's playing basketball at work where they have

this, you know They have a basketball court there,

right in the office. He has bowls of candy lying

around. He can never have a Jolly Rancher ever

again. That was creepy, too, when he pushed in

the guy's mouth. I'm like, what the hell is that?

And then licks his fingers. He had a finger in

that guy's mouth and he's licking it out. And

then he gave him military secrets. But it just

seemed like they were trying to make them like

Mark Zuckerberg where it's just like relaxed

like that would have been better because I like

it watching social network Mark Zuckerberg feels

more like Lex Luthor than this So yeah, I can't

think of anything else specifically. It's for

the wise We'll probably come up with something

later when we're out there. I guess I did I did

like Wonder Woman I did like the moment of her

Saving Bruce. I think that like that was the

closest moment of me wanting to cheer that it

wasn't an entire film because it did seem like

Yeah, like that's kick -ass with seeing her like

block the blast with her Which was kind of misleading

in the trailer because it wasn't her shield She

was using her right wristband, which was cool.

Like I'm and they did kind of show all of her

weapon She had the lasso she had everything so

like going full force with that which I said

I'm really excited for the Wonder Woman movie.

I think that I'm actually still kind of excited

for Suicide Squad because it's not Zack Snyder

But I kind of like this world. I don't mind that

it's darker, that the tone's a little bit more

mature. I'm fine with that. It makes sense, because

you've got to try to stand differently than Marvel.

But it's so disappointing, because you're looking

at a movie that I remember waiting for, seeing

the little poster in I Am Legend in the background,

and thinking how cool this could have been. And

it's a complete waste. The potential this movie

could have been it could have been one of the

best and it's just I don't know I guess maybe

we can end on that like where would you put this

in the Within like would you call it one of the

like the worst failures with like the spiderman

threes and the fantastic like fantastic fours

or I haven't seen the new fantastic four I heard

that is atrocious. Yeah, it's funny because they

some they suffer from many similar issues where

There are like elements that seem like they could

have been great, but they just were never fully

realized. So I kind of put it down there, not

seeing it, but I put it there with like Spider

-Man 3, X -Men 3, all the threes, I guess. Three

is not really though, but those two specifically,

it definitely did not even get into like my mid

-range favorites. Would you put it above or below

Man of Steel? I liked Man of Steel better. It

was a little bit more realized and not as sloppy,

and I could figure out what was going on through

the whole thing, and I wasn't as confused in

that. Yeah. And plus, I kind of liked how Super...

I know Chuck doesn't, but I kind of like how

Superman was in that movie. Yeah. I mean, it

was... I didn't have a huge problem with that,

if they're gonna explore that more. Like, go

through the... goes through the conflict that

Clark would have dealing with his decision, you

know what I mean? Like, create some inner turmoil

in him that he had to make that decision, but

they never did anything. It was like, oh, he

went and met with, you know, this is talking

about the end of Man of Steel, and he met with

a couple of military officials, and he's like,

I'm watching you, or whatever, and it was like

he was unfazed by it. If you're gonna make a

defining moment like that, show the inner turmoil

in him, don't just brush it off. Even in this,

it does seem like he... He kills that guy in

Africa, right? He just straight -up murders him.

It kind of seems like it, yeah. He could have

very easily grabbed the end of the gun and just

caught the bullet, you know what I mean? Again,

it does seem like that other guy just kind of

gets off like this other CIA dude. You could

have said, no, I'm just going to let him die.

No. Which that CIA guy was supposed to be Jimmy

Olsen, apparently. Yeah, that's sort of they

were saying I heard a lot of stuff interesting

tidbit that guy was actually on smallville and

he played um, Perry white by the way what? What

year did this take place in? It's 18 months after

Man of Steel. When did Man of Steel take place?

Is it in modern times? I'm pretty sure. Why does

he have a film camera? Why? Does this take place

in our world? Because I saw Anderson Cooper,

Nancy Grace... Can we stop? doing that, by the

way. Well, Neil Agressor Tyson was kind of funny.

But yeah, like that stuff needs to end. They

dodged challengers too, so that must be our current

time. Yeah, so that was also weird. Like, it

took me out of a different time and a different

place. So we're in like... I didn't even think

that, I just wanted you to film the camera. That

is amazing. As soon as that happened, I turned

to Chuck. Yeah, that's... I'm like... So maybe

it is Jimmy Olsen since he's used in film. See,

like, I wouldn't put it, like, as low as Spider

-Man 3. Like, I actually ended up on Letterboxd.

I made a ranking of all the DC Marvel movies

comparing them and where I put them. This was,

like, mid. This was, like, in, like, wasn't as

low as, like, the Electra or, like, the worst

of the worst. I put it around, like... I think

he had a 45th. Something like that. So... There's

a lot of comic book movies out there. I would

say, like, a... maybe like a Batman forever or

which is I mean around that one around the end

of maybe Amazing Spider -man the first one like

in a sense of there are things there that I liked

but overall just it's really messy I don't know

I'm probably gonna this is gonna be controversial

but this is quite possibly one of the worst comic

book movies I have ever seen this Just as far

as my enjoyment of it and my disappointment of

it, I honestly saw better elements in Electra

than I saw in this. I'm not even joking. Maybe

it's personal preference. Hey, I at least understood

their motivations in that. Exactly. It may not

have been executed the best with acting, but

at least you knew where they were going. I could

see things like Batman Forever. That was pretty

awful, too. I gotta rank this way, way, way down

at the bottom, like probably like bottom three,

bottom five comic book movies I've ever seen.

I was just extremely, extremely disappointed

and let down after I came out of this. I mean,

maybe a second watch would be a little bit better.

Do you think like an additional like the three

hour cut or the longer film you might enjoy it

more? I think it's possible because they can

get a chance to flesh things out more and Explain

things it could possibly be a lot better because

actually I remember watching the directors cut

of the Punisher the Tom Jane Punisher like that

and there was some that the directors cut of

that is actually really good because there's

some scenes in there that explain things that

you didn't really get in the theatrical version

like like how that cop sort of Became corrupt

and sort of ratted out. Yeah, Frank Castle like

that wasn't in the theatrical version. So There

are a lot of cases where that does help when

they release that version, so it's quite possible

I could like it more after that. I would like

an unedited version of no CGI. The bathtub scene?

Yes, thank you. Watch The Fighter and you might

enjoy that more. Alrighty. I think it's The Fighter.

I could be wrong. Yeah, I'm probably down around

like... Maybe one and a half stars. Well, yeah,

I gave it I have written review on keycast radio.

I gave it two and a half But yeah, I can't fault

there What's interesting too is the reaction

to this film like I heard a lot of people say

I mean, we I don't know if we have enough time

now, but like people think well This is for the

fans and like I don't get that at all because

I don't I don't see what in this like the fans

would What are they pointing to saying, see,

this is what the critics don't like, but this

is what the fans do like, because I'm a fan,

I'm a comic book fan, and I like good stories,

and this isn't it. So I don't know if that's

people just because of it's a comic book movie,

so they want to like it. I'm not saying you can't

get enjoyment out of this. There's people probably

who do like it, but I guess I see that reaction

a ton for people saying, well, that's not made

for the critics, it's made for the fans, but

I don't. understand that because the failures

of this are just failures that are universal

not because not like yeah it's not because it's

not trying to do amazing things or it's not like

this serious Oscar contender it's just poorly

made and I'll say like there is there is a distinction

between like if you don't agree with us the way

these characters were portrayed, that's fine.

But there's hard evidence of things that happened

in this movie that were terribly executed. You

know what I mean? That has nothing to do with

character portrayal. So you can't ignore those

things that we've talked about. There are major

objective problems that you could point, like

we said. The motivations is the key. That is...

Unquestionably a problem with this. I don't I

mean maybe you can oversee that maybe you're

like, okay I don't care about that. I just want

to see these guys fighting but like I said I

was I was let down in the fight to begin with

like the action itself just seemed minus the

The warehouse escape I really like that sequence,

but besides that the action to me was just rather

forgettable. So Anything else before we bring

this episode to a close? Please civil war get

here Watch daredevil again, then watch the taste

out of her mouth Season two you mean not the

Ben Affleck daredevil still better than this

It's funny I someone made a joke saying like

on Twitter in daredevil you see a much more moral

Question regarding morality in the season 2 or

Daredevil episode 3 with Punisher and Deadpool

not sorry with Punisher and Daredevil I'm like

you see a better argument regarding the morality

of being a superhero between Colossus and Deadpool

and Deadpool But yeah, all right, so Be curious

to hear what everyone else has to say regarding

this film. You can let us know what you think

in a number of different ways. We're on Facebook

and Twitter. Just search Talking in Circles GCRN.

You can also email us at feedback .geekathria

.com or talkingincircles .live .com. You guys

are also on Twitter. What are your Twitter names?

I am at heroicagechuck. And I am at the 3 -H

Forge. And I am at Movie Revolt, but that'll

be it for this week. We'll be back next week.

Same time, same channel, same podcast feed, but

for now. This has been Chuck. This has been Greg,

or Mexican Flash. And this has been Dan, and

we've been talking in circles. We'll see you

next week. On the land, on the land! Yes, we

have Speedy Gonzales! That's Donald Trump's worst

nightmare, you're gonna get right over that wall.

Just run right up the wall and get over it. Do

a time portal and everything. I don't know what

FNCity Ezra Miller is, but I actually like him

as an actor, so I'm curious to see what - I don't

understand facial hair. Do you think they could

have gotten someone better than Ezra? Sorry,

that was terrible. Yeah, well, in this world,

no one shaves, apparently. Everyone has a 5 o

'clock shadow. What does Superman use to shave?

Does he use the heat vision in a mirror? Well,

that was a whole marketing campaign with Man

of Steel. Yeah, with a Gillette.