GCRN WarZ – Episode 03 – Thundercats Vs Silverhawks!

Geekcastradio .com presents GCRN Wars Two geek

topics will be challenged The ultimate battle

will come to pass One shall stand, one shall

fall Hello and welcome to episode 3 of GCR and

wars. I am one of your Ostea of you and Mike

joining me is optimus solo. Hello. I am here

You fucker Steve Megatron hello The sickly optobotomist

hello, who do you mean what he sounds like he's

trying to come from Castlevania I'm not the one

that does voices here. I'm Simon Belmont and

I'm happy. If I do voices, it's apparently only

Japanese ones and then I'm called racist. Longtime

listener, fan of the show, Tune Master Tim is

joining us for the first time. Hello, sir. Hello,

everybody. What the hell was that? This is gonna

be interesting. Yeah, this is gonna be very interesting.

It's fabulous! That sounds like a Simon Belmont

from a certain cartoon. Mike, come on, you're

the only one that hasn't done a voice yet. Just

gonna have any there. No, do it! Do it! That's

not even going to! Yes, do it! No! Do it! Mistake

by that much! Mine's better. Then do it! Do it.

I'm not doing it right now, dammit. Do it. Do

it. Today we will end the age -old argument between

Kevin and myself of which series is better, Thundercats

or Silverhawks? Oh, it's not just between you

and me. Well, no, no, no. Okay, well, let's give

some history here. That's what really started

this episode. Two and a half years ago, when

Kevin and I started Tooncast Classic, episode

five we reviewed Thundercats, episode seven we

reviewed Silverhawks. I like Thundercats better.

He likes Silverhawks better. Really quickly,

Tim, why don't you introduce yourself to the

listeners as you are a listener as well. Who

is your daddy and what does he do? No, it goes

more like, who is your daddy and what does he

do? Much better. Well, I guess, I don't know

where to start. I've been listening or... Over

a year. I started with the real Ghostbusters

episode of Tooncast and have just been listening

to several of your shows since then I went back

into the archives and I've listened to every

episode of Tooncast and Yeah So those early episodes

had some audio issues, but yeah, no some great

stuff there and I think you guys put out some

great shows. I'm just glad you invited me on

for the Silverhawks and Thundercats show. Cool.

And going around the table really quickly, one

sentence or less, what have you guys been up

to this week, Steve? Too much to count. Fandubs.

Redoing PredaconEmpire .com and that's pretty

much it. Kevin? Watching Silverhawks and Thundercats.

And screencapping every character that speaks

in all of them. I've been screen -capping, but

I've been screen -capping something else. Yeah,

blah, blah, blah. Optimus, what have you been

up to, sir? Really quickly, one sentence or less?

Bacon. That's not a sentence, that's a statement.

I like bacon, period. All right, Kev, so why

don't you just give a brief rundown as far as

what this is going to entail, and then we'll

get into it. Well, hopefully all you listeners

out there have already... Listened to GCRN wars

episode 2 which was our Flintstones versus Jetsons

Debate debacle in which the case the the Jetsons

beat the Flintstones 12 to 8 in the voting tallies

And we're basically doing something very similar

with slightly different categories here and there

we are comparing the Thundercats and the Silverhawks

We're basically talking about just the cartoon

minus one exception which we'll get to later

on but we've we've divvied up 20 different categories

ranging from you know writing to music to different

characters to setting you know all the way down

the gamut there's 20 different things what we're

going to do is we are going to introduce each

of the 20 categories we will go back and forth

talking about them a little bit as far as everybody

giving their opinions on them maybe trying to

convince the other people of what their position

is and then as we near the end of discussion

for each individual topic we will each cast our

official vote for Which show did whatever the

topic was better and since there's five of us.

There will be no ties basically how we set this

up is Now we're not all gonna vote the same for

every right We're not I'm not I'm not all gonna

vote on the same thing that we're all here for

we can all vote for whatever we want to vote

for but how I Originally set this up was Tim

and I are on the Thundercats side Paul and Kevin

are on the Silverhawks side and Steve is in the

middle and he's being tugged in either direction.

I'm on the fence. I'm trying to convince Steve

and the rest of the people that we're right in

our opinions and we'll kind of just go back and

forth as far as who goes first and who talks

and this and that. Honestly, there's some things

that I'm dead set that Silverhawks is better,

there's some things that I'm dead set that Thundercats

are better, and there's a handful of things I'm

still undecided and I want to hear everybody's

opinions, so we'll see where it goes. I have

the tally sheet ready to go and ready to keep

score. So, that's basically how it will work.

Cool! Yeah, Kevin is the mathematician of the

Geekcast Radio Network because none of the rest

of us give a shit about math. We stupid! Or I'm

the Excel geek. Yes, there you go. So let the

games begin. up in our Ultimate Battle Royale

Thundercats vs. Silverhawks is, it makes sense

to start here because this is the first thing

you hear every time you watch one of the shows

and those are the theme songs from each show.

Obviously they're done by the same people so

you're not really comparing who wrote them or

who did the music, it's just overall which theme

songs you're liking better, quality of the music,

words, etc. I will say that Silverhawks by far

has twice as amount of the amount of words. Because

the whole Thundercats theme song uses 11 different

words. Thunder, thunder, thunder. Not that that's

bad or good, but Mike, why don't you start us

off with your opinions of both theme songs? I

like them both. The Silverhawks theme song reminds

me of maybe a 80s glam rock band recorded it

It just it just sounds like synth 80s metal to

me Thundercats song For me along with the imagery

it tells a story of each of those characters

And I prefer thundercats over silverhawks as

far as the theme song now. I'm not saying Now

I'm not saying that I do like them both, but

seeing as how we're forced to choose in every

single category, if I was gonna choose, it would

be Thundercats over Silverhawks in this category.

See, for me with theme songs, first of all, no...

I'm gonna get geek fandoms out there pissed off

in a second, but people should know that I'm

a geek when it comes to theme songs, especially

cartoon theme songs. And 80s action, 80s, the

boys, 80s action shows. don't really necessarily

have great theme songs. They have memorable theme

songs. They have ones that we remember because

we watch the show, but when you stack like any

of them, when you stack like He -Man, Transformers,

G .I. Joe, Thundercats, Silverhawks, they don't

really stand up to DuckTales and Gummy Bears

and some of those as far as theme songs goes

with the exception of maybe Teenage Mutant Ninja

Turtles and Mask. Those are about the only two

that stand out. So I don't think either one of

these theme songs is like freaking fantastic,

but I love them both for the nostalgia factor.

But to me, Silverhawks is more of a song. It

has lines with lyrics that are not just thunder,

thunder, thunder, thunder, and more thunder.

So the song person in me... Likes the Silverhawks

version better as far as the imagery that's going

on. That's kind of secondary to me I mean, maybe

some people like the the intro imagery and they

let that way into it but for me I'm basing this

just on the music and the lyrics so I'm Definitely

leaning towards Silverhawks. No surprise here.

But uh Tim any thoughts on the theme song? Yeah,

I agree I do like both themes and I was watching

Thundercats preparing for the show and was taking

notice of The Thundercats theme as how you said

it's basically the same few words over and over

but what I think distinguishes it from Silverhawks

one of the reasons I tend to like it more is

That it does have that Real upbeat rock theme

to it. There's guitar. There's drums There's

the cool animation behind it, of course. There's

something to say about it being so simple that

it's just thunder, thunder, thunder, thundercats.

I know on paper it looks ridiculous. Anybody

looking at that would go, wow, that's a terrible

theme. But the chorus that sings it, I think

they sing with such enthusiasm with that music

underneath it. It just really gets... I mean,

for me anyway, it gets me really excited for

the show. And I think that when you get into

the show, the theme that you've heard is expressive

of what the show actually entails. It's a big

action adventure show that combines magic with

technology. And Silverhawks is a good theme,

too. It's upbeat. It's just not as big and not

as exciting, in my opinion. I think the one line

that does it for me in both songs, my favorite

line from either of them, is the Silverhawks

part, though, that goes, you know, soaring through

the highway of the heavens in their flight. When

you listen to that in the theme song, that's

the longest line that either version has, and

it just... Yeah. I can just feel it like taking

off. I mean, it kind of fits that whole, not

airplane thing, but the whole flying, you know,

being in space type genre. That's the line that

I think sells it for me. But I do think that

these two are very close. When I did my rankings

of like all time cartoon theme songs, I had these

neck and neck. I mean, they were literally right

after each other in the countdown. I think they're

that close. Mr. Bottomus, can I call you that?

Oh, please, you can call me Paul. People have

called him less than that. People have called

me much worse than that as well. You know, the

thing that instantly grabs me with whenever I'm

listening to something or whenever I'm going

to start watching something, it's the instant,

the very first thing that I hear and instantly

when I listen to Silver Hawks, I hear that beautiful

bass. As soon as I hear that, I'm instantly grabbed.

I love what you were saying about how it's more

of a song as opposed to the regular Thundercats

where it's kind of just like music and it's going

along with it and there's some words that are

thrown in there. Even before all this was decided

that we were going to do this show and everything,

I mean... Whenever I would think of the thundercats

the only thing that would pop in my mind whenever

I would listen to it in my mind was Thunder thunder

thunder thundercats. That's all I heard and that

was it and that was you know And it had the music

going along with it with silver hawks though.

There's more of a story at least to me There's

more of a story that without images and without

anything else they tell the story of what the

Silverhawks are the wings of silver, nerves of

steel. They tell, you know, parsley metal, parsley

real. It's all the story of what they are is

right there in the song. And for me, the Silverhawks

is just a better story. The theme song is a better

storytelling apparatus for the show in general.

You know what you're getting into when you're

going into it. I think you kind of bring up a

good point, because for me, and I don't know

if we talked about this with the Flintstones

or Jetsons, but if you take away all of the imagery

and if you take away all of the visuals and you're

just left with the audio, you don't get as much

from the Thundercats theme song as you do from

the Silverhawks theme song, because like you

said, when you're watching it, it's almost like

when you're watching the Thundercats one, you

don't even hardly need the words. Because you're

just watching it and you're listening to the

music and that carries it and it seems like they

just kind of spatter the words in just to have

something And I think it says something about

the theme song If you take all the visual part

away, which one stands on its own better and

that's why I agree with you I think it's I still

think it's Silverhawks I think without necessarily

having to go through an official vote. It's pretty

obvious that we're two and two right here Go

ahead. I'm just gonna say I think those are really

good and valid points But also I'm looking at

the the words of the theme song for thundercats

and one things I'm noticing and I hadn't paid

attention to this before Is how like every line

in the theme song is so memorable though? You

know how people remember? Thundercats are on

the move thundercats are loose, you know feel

the magic here the war. These are all almost

you know taglines for the Thundercats franchise.

Well, there is only four lines. Yeah. Good point.

So you better remember them, dang it. Yeah. Well,

see, that's the thing, though. Now that we've

been talking about this and we've been discussing

this, I've been, you know, I've been able to

replay the song in my head as far as that goes.

The Thundercats theme song, as Paul said, is

more about the actual music, less about the lyrics.

Yeah. See, I'm a lyric guy, so I guess that's

why I tend to gravitate towards songs that have

more. of the lyric and less of the music part,

which is not everybody. Some people like the

musical part better. Steve, I think we're going

to have to have you break a tie on this one.

Yeah, I have a feeling that's going to come down

to that. I got 20 bucks here, Steve. It depends

on if they would actually get sent to me. Oh,

yeah. It's in the mail, dude. PayPal? instantaneous

email? But I accept bribes. Don't we all? Yes.

Cheap whore. So I have to kind of give it like,

and I'm going to start with a cop out down in

the middle, but I'm still going to make a decision

by the end of it. I like both theme songs for

what they are. And I do have to agree with you.

You guys with the points that you've made as

far as like silver hawks does tell a story. So

I mean in that sense That one would be more memorable.

But at the same time the thundercats, I mean

granted Yes, they have that audio in there just

as filler for the visuals But the kind of annoying

part with it is they list thunder in there 23

times Despite being attached to cats on some

of them. It's still thunder in there 23 times

Whereas silver hawks is in there six Not as much

of an overkill No, so I mean it while I do have

to give thundercats that it is very very upbeat

It does get me more psyched as far as the theme

song is concerned for the show coming up ahead

For the tempo that's going on and everything

but silver hawks does tell a better story of

what you're going to be watching So it's tough

for me in this but in that sense I'm gonna have

to give it to Silverhawks Only because it's more

memorable telling you what you're watching And

the Silverhawks fans rejoice You had your chance

to bribe me So that is Paul's $20 paying off

and the first topic our second topic We're still

kind of sticking along with stuff that's gonna

happen basically at the beginning of the shows

and stuff You're first introduced to next one's

a seemingly simple one. We're just looking at

the actual show logos. It seems simple But when

creating a show this is something that people

spend a good deal of time on because the logo

is everywhere The logo is what you see when the

cartoon starts. The logo will be seen on toys.

The logo will be seen on commercials and stuff

like that. The logo is an important piece to

this. You can visit our post. If you're not listening

to this straight at GeekCast Radio, if you're

listening to this through iTunes or something

like that, you can go to geekcastradio .com and

find the post. We'll have pictures of all of

this stuff on the post so you'll be able to see

the logos if you don't know them from memory.

But looking at the two logos, Mike, we haven't

talked to you for a little while, so give me

your thoughts on the two logos. Now, the two

logos, the two images that you have linked are

the main images for both shows. However, the

Thundercats logo over the years and even back

then had so many different versions to it. I

prefer the one that actually happened in the

actual show. partly because at the end of the

song they've got the Sword of Omens actually

blending into the logo. Whereas the Silverhawks

one, it's cool, it's interesting, but just don't

care. Basically the Thundercats one, you have

usually a black background, or like Mike said,

a background with the Sword of Omens. You have

the traditional red Don't know what you want

to call it thundercat face lion face thing. Whatever

it had under cat logo Yeah, thundercat logo and

then you have the thundercats with their jagged

edge to like cat like Font whereas the silverhawks

you're in space. It's kind of a bluish space

background You have a very clean like streamlined

font using for the silverhawks kind of Doing

a little bit of the metallic look with the the

triangle Tallyhawk type silverhawks logo above

it To me The Thundercats logo, the font, is one

of the big selling points, and then the actual

circular Thundercats logo versus the triangular

Silverhawks logo. I just find the Thundercats

logo a little bit more interesting, actually,

on this one. The Silverhawks one seems too clean

-cut and bland to me. Yeah, I mean, it's just

the fact that it's just there. And as I said

before, you know, with the actual introduction

on the on the Thundercats cartoon, the logo was

interactive with the other imagery. I mean, because

as soon as you see Lionel hold the sword up,

it then flips over into the logo. So and the

Silverhawks one, I mean, it's not like, you know,

It's not like the Mirage created the logo. I

mean, you know, it's not like one of their vehicles

created this logo or somehow formed this logo

for them. That's not how it happened. So yeah,

Thundercats all the way on this. Who else wants

to chime in on the logo? Paul, why don't you

go first? Okay. In terms of the font. I do have

to say that there's a little bit more interest

or interesting things going on with the lettering.

I do like the jagged claw looks of the Thundercats,

but you talk about how the logo is formed out

of, you know, the sort of omens and everything.

The logo for Silverhawks is formed out of Tallyhawk's

head. There's a scene towards the end of it where

you have a group shot of them all standing there

and there's like these little flashes and then

it flashes on Tally Hawk's head and then it comes

back and then you have the Silver Hawks. I like

that imagery a little bit more. Now if we're

talking about the 2011 Thundercats, that's something

a little bit different. No, we're just talking

about the original. I know, I know. They're all,

both of them are very simplistic. Both of them

get the point across. But I just, I love the

group shot of all the Silverhawks there. And

out of Tally Hawk's head comes this logo. So

it's not much, it's not much, but it's just a

little bit of an edge that I have to give to

the Silverhawks in that. I will say, just completely

kind of unrelated, but I will. As we've gone

through the fandoms and progressed and people

write these logos, they never write the names

of these shows right. It is clear as day in both

of these logos that they are two capital letters

in each name. The S and the H on Silverhawks

and the T and the C on Thundercats. Yet nobody

writes those names like that. Yeah, I'm guilty

of that. I think everybody's guilty of that.

They all write lowercase for both of those and

every time I write Thundercats I write a capital

C and I'm like, why am I the only one doing this?

But anyways, I just had to inject that but Tim,

what are your thoughts on the two logos? I agree

with a lot of what you said Kevin. I really like

the Thundercats logo. I have a preference a bit

over the Silverhawks logo just because of the

claw. lettering and that just striking orange

logo with the cat inside. And Silverhawks, it's

clean, it's very straight, sort of a Helvetica

sort of font with those S's on the end. But the

Tallyhawk icon almost looks like, I don't know

if anybody's familiar with the 101st Airborne

icon of the Screamin' Eagles, but that's what

it kind of reminds me of. It's not a bad thing.

And I wouldn't give up, you know, take off any

points for that, but I just think the Thundercats

logo is just, it's so striking. It's different

from a lot of other logos that are out there.

And watching the DVDs, there's an extra that

talks about, you know, the creative genus behind

the show, Ted Wolf, designed the characters and

designed this logo. And they were talking about

how he designed this incredible looking logo.

I can't remember all they said about it, but

they're right. I mean, I think it's great. And

that's why they're still using it with the new

show. I mean, it's been changed a bit from the

original logo, but the basics, yeah, it's still

there. All right, Steve, the art genius amongst

us that does all of the GCRN logoing and fonts

and lettering and whatnot. What are your expert

thoughts on these two logos? Overall, just off

of gazing at them off, first off, Thundercats

does draw my eye more. It's because they have

two solid colors for the most part. You have

the gradient silver on the Thundercats word and

the cat in the red. It's kind of plain, but it's

to the point, and it seems to draw my eye a lot

more than the Silverhawks, despite having a couple

of lens flares and space in the background. And

there's a different kind of gradient on that

as well. You have kind of a silvery, and then

you have some blue in the middle. While that

is, you know... Both of them are very 80s, but

the Silverhawks logo definitely doesn't really

hold up in today's standards as far as graphically.

If I were looking at the two on a shelf or on

some kind of an ad somewhere, I would definitely

still be drawn to Thundercats. Go ahead. Just

gonna say like I think you made a good point

there and it's kind of been shown as far as the

2011 Thundercats series like the Thundercats

Reboot happened and you really didn't need to

do too much with the logo I have a feeling if

they did a Silverhawks reboot unless they were

just trying to be true to the original that they

would Do something different with the logo. Don't

you think yeah, I would definitely think so only

because Like I said, it's it's not very appealing

and it looks very very early 80s As far as graphically

mm -hmm and thundercats you know like you said

doesn't really need any anything But a couple

like slight modifications to update it Kind of

like how they did with transformers or GI Joe.

I mean they they're still pretty much the same

mold they just Get slightly more update mm -hmm,

so I on this one. I would definitely have to

say thundercats wins And for me, I think really

quick before you finish this up. I think that

the thing between the two logos is I've only

ever seen the Silverhawks logo as it is in the

images that we're looking at. The Thundercats

logo, I've seen multiple colors, multiple variations.

Sometimes it's a black cat head inside the red.

But they've also been around a lot longer. No,

they've been around the same amount of time.

Thundercats had a longer run, is what I mean.

They had a longer television run than Silverhawks

did. Silverhawk's got one year, Thundercat's

got two. That's not that much longer than another.

It's longer to give variation. I will say that

the Thundercat's logo that you see on the cartoon

and the one that's pictured in the script is

not the same logo that they used on any of their

stuff. Right. Like any of their memorabilia.

It's more of a silver look, isn't it? Well, yeah,

and it had the, instead of the Tally Hawk head

being above it, it would be in between the two

words, Silver Hawks, mostly. Every once in a

while it would be above it, but like on, you

know, like lunch boxes or even if you have the

DVDs, for example, it's a different logo, just

slightly. But I still think, like Steve said,

it still screams more 80s than the Thundercats

one. I mean, I think it's easier to modify the

Thundercats one than it is the Silver Hawks one

into modern day. Not that that's what... we should

be basing it off of modern day times, but I just

think overall the Thundercats one maybe had more

appeal, I don't know. Yeah, it looks more actiony,

more fierce than Silverhawk. Silverhawk's just

kind of, while it does look kind of cool, it's

more plain than Thundercats itself. And if you

were just to take the Thundercats symbol, They

have a symbol there that is used over and over

in the show as far as, you know, the sword as

far as Lionel Collin, the other Thundercats.

That red symbol is iconically Thundercats. I

mean, that's the thing you see on t -shirts.

You don't necessarily see the word Thundercats.

You see people walking around with black t -shirts

with that orange or red, whatever color you want

to call it, you know, circular symbol with the

Thundercat head. And to me, that... even though

I'm a huge fan of Tally Hawk, that blows the

triangle eagle head out of the water. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to say

with the eagle, you know, sort of symbolizing

other logos that I recognize and Thundercats

being, you know, just so unique when you see

that cat head, you know, whether it's, you know,

an orange cat head against a black background

or, you know, or orange cat head or, you know,

whatever color it is. Against some background,

you know exactly but you know, that's thundercats.

You recognize it immediately. That's like a symbol

of the 80s almost the thundercat head Right like

kids of the 80s Just like the Autobot and Decepticon

symbols are yeah Again, I don't think you can

draw parallels with those because the Transformers

have been crammed on our throat since 2007 I

mean that but you know Transformers have been

crammed on our throats since they came out Yeah,

I mean I mean in terms of recent young and I

mean I see it with all no not not not recent

I know I know what you're saying like I know

what you're saying. Don't don't freak out. I

don't want Okay, what would have to fly out to

California for that? I don't know. I don't I

don't trust you Like I said, I was I was always

on the side of Silverhawks, but listening to

your guys's discussion about this One thing that

I will have to say and I'm actually gonna change

my boat. I'm changing it to the Thunderhawks

or Thunderhawks And the Silvercats Nice Isn't

it in the middle? See how I did that? That'd

be a cool crossover No kidding Coming soon I

think it's to Thundercats and the reasoning behind

it is because when I do see it now in the 2011

series To me, it speaks to the power of that

logo, that it was good enough then, and it's

good enough to be used now. And it's funny, because

we were sitting there, this is kind of off on

a tangent, and I promised Mike I wouldn't do

this too much, but I was talking to my wife about

this podcast, and I'm like, we're going to be

discussing Thunderhawks and Silverhawks. I'm

on medication. Thundercats and Silverhawks. She

straight up was looking at me like I had weird

tentacles coming out of my ear. She's like, what

are the Silverhawks? She had no idea. And this

is a woman who grew up around the same time as

me. She knows G .I. Joe. She knows Transformers.

She knows He -Man and She -Ra. She had no idea

what Silverhawks were. And to me that says to

me that speaks to the resonance of you know now

and I have a I mean you guys were talking about

t -shirts with the the red dot with the Thundercats

head in there as do I I have it I have a t -shirt

that has that and she instantly knows what what

that is if I were to walk around with Tally Hawk

triangle she would have no clue and I think that's

the resonance and the power of the Thundercats

logo so That's like what Tim was saying too,

you know, if someone was to walk around just

with that triangle, just with the tally hawk

triangle in the face, people would be like trying

to figure out what that is and people would be

guessing stuff like, is that like a armed forces

symbol? Is that an airplane symbol? Is that an

animal, you know, some type of zoo symbol? People

would not come up with silver hawks right away.

Whereas if you have the silver or the thundercats

circle logo, people know what that is. Right.

I agree. Amen. So I think that does it for that

category. We will move on to something else that

you usually get a little bit of dose of right

from the beginning and then throughout the rest

of the cartoon, which is the overall music. Now

we're not just talking about, we're not talking

about the theme song at all here. We're talking

about the musical themes, et cetera, that are

used throughout the show, whether it be, you

know, a theme for Lionel or a theme for Moanstar

or different characters, or it might just be...

Just audio that you know music that's being used

in the background that type of stuff and I want

to go first on this one because I want to make

sure we're all considering the fact that Silverhawks

has two musical characters built into the show

Bluegrass is a country singer musical person

like his his War hawk if you want to call it

fighting hawk is a guitar hawk type thing And

he even Larry Kenny who does the voices he even

sings at different times and episodes Which I

didn't remember happening until I was rewatching

these and he actually sings some country songs

at some point You know just lions here and there

as he's like almost singing the blues whatever

and then you have melodia on the villain side

who is like a Like Mike was kind of saying before

like an 80s glam punk rock Diva type person before

they were popular nowadays. It's like some melodious

you get married. It's like Lady Gaga of the 80s.

I just say that anyway So I mean you have two

musical characters in the show for Silverhawks,

which provides a lot of Opportunities and options

for Silverhawks to do all kinds of crazy stuff

with their musical themes They don't just have

like space age like Silverhawk sounds they have

country sounds they have this pop like rocker

sounds going on and I think that kind of makes

it a little more diverse on the Silverhawk side.

Now, I'm not saying Thundercats doesn't have

some badass themes, because they do, you know,

when the Thunder Tank is getting going or when

Lionel is about ready to call for the Thundercats.

I mean, that's one of the most generally, like,

gradually building and building and building

musical themes in all of the 80s cartoons that

I can think of as far as getting you excited

for what's going on. I think everybody knows

when he put that sword up and did the Thundercats

thing, you were about to get some kickass music

coming along with it that you almost didn't even

need words or dialogue for a few minutes after

that because the music was just carrying it.

So I will give Thundercats that aspect, but Silverhawks

did have their theme too for when the Silverhawks

were taking flight in the Mirage and stuff like

that. I just... to me this one's a close matchup

um and i'm not gonna necessarily cast my boat

yet until i hear what everybody else has to say

let's go to mike as far as the musical themes

everybody that's listened to me podcast since

2008 knows i absolutely love the thunder tank

theme however i will agree with kevin that some

of the songs more specifically to melodia because

she is the villainous uh she had some pretty

kick -ass songs in silver hawks I really don't

think in any medium, whether it's movies, television,

cartoons, whatever, if you have a main theme

like the Thundercats song or like the Silverhawks

song, they're going to use that every time the

heroes show up. I mean, yeah, granted, it may

not be using the words, but it's using that musical

interlude of that song. It's using a piece of

music from that song. So they each have their

own points to that effect. I like the quieter

tones in Thundercats music. Like, in the episode

where we met Willa, you know, there was, you

know, when Lionel was sneaking around the forest

there was, you know, some quieter music. So I

really like that as far as Thundercats goes.

Silverhawks, it's a little bit too synth. It

uses way too much of the synthesizer for me.

But all... I'll also wait until we finish talking

about this to see if my vote changes. What about

you, Tim? Both shows have a broad catalog of

music, but it does vary quite a bit. And I think

Thundercats seems, in my opinion, watching the

shows, it seems like Thundercats has more music

that was made for the show with As you talked

about before Mike on some of the other podcasts

how each character has his or her own theme And

I really like that about the show the Thunder

tank even has its own theme so that that's unique

to Thundercats Silverhawks I I I don't quite

see the melodia and bluegrass songs. I don't

remember them Singing I mean, I'm singing besides

bluegrass had like a couple times where he would

sing a couple lines They weren't singing songs

particular that they did like everybody knows

though. They use their Instruments or their weapons

that created types of music, but no I didn't

want it I didn't mean to make it sound like they

actually are singing singing actual songs Okay,

I mean I remember bluegrass at you know in some

episodes maybe singing a few lines like I said,

but I know like he and Melodia would play their

you know, he would play his guitar and she would

play her What do you call that thing as part

piano part guitar? Yeah, but she would play her

instrument and you know, they would go at it

and but I didn't really find any of those pieces

of music memorable that recurred in the show

and maybe they did but the thundercat ones They

did occur regularly in the show, depending on

what scene had what characters in it. And then

they also had these other musical segments that

were very rarely played, but were sometimes just

kind of strange. Like there's this one episode

where Tigra is in a cave and Mumrah tricks him

into thinking he's this fairy. And oh god, I

remember that episode. Ah, yeah, and that music

is this kind of like it's almost like carnival

music or something It's really weird. It's kind

of dreamy. It's kind of hypnotic and I was like,

I mean I watched that episode and it stuck in

my head for a while and It ended up showing up

in some episodes later There is Yeah, I just

want to pimp this out real quick if anyone's

interested in the music and wants even more in

depth than we're giving out it on on the Season

two volume one DVD of thundercats there is all

of the special features are music related they

talked to Bernie Hoffer and The Rembrandts and

and they go into the musical themes theme song

etc So if someone wants more information on that

you can always go there. I just wanted to point

out one quick thing I didn't mean to interrupt

you but The the thundercats you had mentioned

that they did have themes for the individual

most of the individual characters at least the

main ones As well as obviously like Mike said

the the Thunder tank Silverhawks didn't do it

for necessarily for individual characters But

what they did do is they did it for? location

depending on if you were at Hawkhaven or if you

were at Bedlamar or the sinister saloon or Brimstar,

they changed their musical themes based on environment

or location instead of character like Thundercats.

So they both did have their distinct musical

themes. They just kind of implemented them in

different ways, I guess is what I was trying

to say. That's all you can go back to talking

Yeah I also noticed that the Silver Hawk music

because it is sort of this cops versus the mobsters

Mentality and the show is that that sort of seemed

to be a theme of the music, you know, they sort

of fit into that crime noir Era, you know, it

sort of borrowed some some things from music

you would expect to see in those types of Films

or especially the scenes of stargazer. Yeah Had

like a whole private I music going Well, look

at his office, I mean You know I was brought

on to be a Super Hawk supporter and I'm I'm leaning

again towards thundercats You know, I really,

I love what you said about how, I believe you

said it Kevin, I wasn't looking at the thing

that talks for me, that the musical tones and

things changed based on location as opposed to

the individual people in Thunder Chats. But,

you know, one thing that I absolutely loved with

the Silverhawks, now granted, I mean, I'm going

Thunder Chats on this all the way, what I really

loved though with the Silverhawks was Copper

kid and you meant you mentioned the two other

main musical Characters I suppose I really always

saw the copper kid as a musical one as well Speaking

in his whistles and in the different tones and

things of that nature that was always a for me

I mean that that's all done musically his his

Communication is all done. Well, I don't want

to say musically but effects and yeah, so It

was interesting that they were able to bring

a character to life and I Hate to bring up the

example, but this is you know something that

I was taught I think Mike you and I have talked

about this before with going into Transformers

Prime with Bumblebee and his and his whistles

and his beeps And you know there's so much that

you can't emote in certain things And the music

just... I keep calling it music, but I'm gonna

call it tones. The tones that the copper kid

would speak in were able to come across. And

whatever he was... And it goes through to the

animation and things of that nature as well,

but I just thought that that was a really creative

use of those tones and music. And even though

I still say that... you know the background music

and the epic and that's how I look at thundercats

I listen to the music and I can listen to that

music if I were to put that on like a CD or something

and just listen to it it's it's you know there's

times where it's relaxing it's exciting it's

just I could have nothing else on I could just

have my iPod playing with the musical score from

it and I could enjoy the thundercats more than

I would the silver hawks But I think after listening

to everybody and kind of just going back and

forth and thinking about this a little bit more

for me, I appreciate the ability, the Thundercats

main theme that they use when the Thundercats

are being called as being one of the, you know,

the most momentous as far as like just get you

pumped up, like better than most shows have ever

done as far as a musical theme in the background.

For me, what really does it though is the I get

tired of the sounds in Thundercats. And I can

say this because I literally watched like, I

don't know, a month or two ago, I literally watched

all, every single Thundercats episode back to

back, basically over the course of, I don't know,

a week or two or something like that. So I was

listening to them and watching these shows over

and over and over again. And, you know, by the

10th or 11th episode, I was actually getting

more tired of Thundercats music, whereas I literally

watched 32 episodes of Silverhawks in the last

two days and I never got tired of the music because

of the variety between the synthesized space

type sounds with the hawks and the fighting hawks,

the one I'm talking about, Tallyhawk and whatnot,

to the country music that you got with Bluegrass,

to the rocker music you got with Melodia, to

like what you were saying, Tim, before with that

Private Eye cop, you know, old school cop noir

type sounds you got when they were talking to

Stargazer, even the sinister saloon, like the

bar type sounds, to me there was more of a variety

in Silverhawks and I didn't get tired of the

music in the background because it wasn't as...

Momentous maybe and maybe that's what made it

not get as old for me. So my official vote for

this one will be silver Hawks Mike did you make

up your mind? I'm For what little experience

I have of either either one I've kind of found

that I like the thundercats vibe more While I

do like a lot of the synthesized and kind of

techno -ish type stuff, I didn't really care

for any of it until it hit the late 90s, early

2000s era when they kind of perfected it, other

than when Vince DiCola did it in the 80s. But

yeah, I found myself more leaning towards the

Thundercats, like how they intro'd people and

everything else like that. It was more upbeat

for me Fair enough so thundercats for me as well.

Alrighty Going on getting away from music since

we've had a couple categories like that and getting

kind of into the The nitty -gritty of the show

and it makes sense to start at the beginning

when we first got our first couple episodes and

what I'm talking about is the actual backstories

of the shows The characters etc. I don't know

if anyone wants to go voluntarily quick backstory

synopsis on either show. Otherwise, I can do

it. But does anybody got to do it? All right.

Just do it. All right. For Silverhawks, it's

a it's a pretty basic premise here. You're dealing

with a mob that is wreaking havoc up in space

and they're needing a group to compete against

it and basically down on earth they engineer

these uh... partly metal partly real uh... fighters

to go against them and to send up to commander

stargazer to help him out and such the silver

hawks are born uh... gone through training almost

like they're training for you know nasa or something

like that and then they are sent up to hawk haven

to help out commander stargazer and then the

other flip side of that backstory is You have

the main what causes all this is you have the

main mob boss so to speak breaking out of Prison

and when he breaks out of prison and gets the

mob back together. We're getting the game back

better. Anyways, he Starts to wreak havoc. So

that's his backstory as he has been in jail.

He's been in prison he gets a glimpse of the

moon and its powers and Breaks out and so that

we have the feud set up there between good and

evil and both of these shows are basically good

versus evil Thundercats you start completely

different you start You know, obviously with

the planet being destroyed, an escape ship basically

trying to get out that is holding the original

Thundercats and mutants chasing them down, trying

to shoot them out of the sky and everybody crashing

on Third Earth basically. And then discovering

that there's also another inhabitant of Third

Earth, which would be Mumrah in his little pyramid.

So I don't know. That pyramid wasn't so little.

That was a huge pyramid. So basically it's mutants

and thundercats finding themselves in mumra's

territory and discovering a new land and discovering

how to live on a new planet, etc. So yeah, those

are the basic backstories. Mike, I'm not going

to talk about my opinions yet. I'm going to go

later, but Mike, go ahead. The one thing I want

to point out here is specifically to thundercats.

If you watch Exodus and the episode right after

it, the first two episodes of that series, they

are eerily familiar to the very beginning of

More Than Meets the Eye Part 1, because... No,

I'm dead serious! In More Than Meets the Eye

Part 1, the Decepticons create a magnetic junction

to the Autobot ship, where in Thundercats, the

mutants... basically burn acid into the side

of the Thundercats ship and they board the ship.

That's extremely familiar. You know, that's pretty

much the same deal. Oh, clearly, Thundercats,

they were just copying something else that was

already successful. There you go. Well, at least

they didn't give any of their characters mutism

in later years. Anyway... For me... I like both

the origin stories separately. The Silverhawks

to me is more of in line with Voltron's origin

story as far as going out into space, helping

someone out, and then fighting this giant army

and these gangsters, mobsters, king, whatever.

I like the fact that they basically told you

that unless Steelheart and Steel will get prosthetic

hearts. They can't go. I mean, that's that was

something big. You know, did they did they ever

really touch on that during the series? Because

I noticed that watching the origin story and

I have just the first volume that was released

on DVD. I haven't picked up the one that was

recently released volume two, but I don't remember

them ever touching on that. I think there might

and Kevin can. Correct me if I'm wrong in this

I think there might have been a couple episodes

where if they overexerted themselves too much

or if they got you know If they've they got too

anxious or something there was something wrong

and because they're twins one feels the other's

pain I don't know I They touched on the whole

twin connection They touched on you know being

able to almost sense each other's thoughts and

feel each other's pain type stuff but as far

as the actual physical aspect of What was touched

on in the origin story granted? I haven't rewatched

all 65 episodes. I've only watched about 32 35

somewhere in there because I had to start skipping

because I was running out of time So it could

have happened in some of those episodes that

I haven't watched since 1987 or whatever it was

but no on the episodes I saw they never actually

touched on the whole Traumatic beginnings as

far as the prosthetic but overall for me it the

origin story goes to thundercats uh... said simply

because simply because that the reason why i

say it is because that it's the story of i mean

technically it's it's a superman origin your

planet blows up you go to another planet you

have these phenomenal new cosmic powers living

space. So basically, they stole from two other

successful franchises. Okay, all right. Yeah,

I see where you're going with this. I like I

like more like back then as a kid, I liked more

of the sword and sorcery and the magic and the

technology rather than just the technology of

the silver hawks the metal body I that That's

why. Go ahead. Go ahead. To me, it goes into

how in -depth they're getting into the actual

characters' background. And I separate this between

heroes and villains as far as the backstory goes.

As far as the heroes go, I think you get a little

bit more into who the Thundercats are as characters

in their backstory. Whereas outside of Steel

Will and Steelheart, the Silverhawks, basically,

they're showing up You're seeing them at the

age When the show is gonna take place basically,

you don't get necessarily get into what was happening

in Quicksilver's past You know what happened

to him before he became a silver I mean you get

little Quick synopsis I guess in the but it doesn't

go as in -depth as to it seems like you get to

see a little bit more of the Thundercats Not

much, but you get to see a little bit more now

during the actual show. It might be different

as far as Backstory as it's revealed throughout

the show But as far as just the origin stories

as far as like, you know Just the first couple

episodes of each series you get a little bit

more I think as far as what was happening to

the Thundercats before they show up on third

earth Whereas Silverhawks is like here's the

people they're going and then you learn about

them as they go now the flip side of that is

the is the villain part and For me, it's almost

vice versa with the villains with Mumra You know

the mutants discover him and it's just like they

awaken this guy and here he is Whereas moan star

you see him. What's happening to him before the

series? He's been captured. He's in jail He's

doing around there. You understand where he's

getting this power from that. He's broken out

He doesn't ever wants to go back to jail Seems

to me like that's a little bit more of a development

than what you get with mummer I can see it argued

either way But for me, I like the backstory better

for the villains of Silverhawks, but for the

heroes of Thundercats Tim or Paul when you guys

want to jump in Sure. Yeah, I have quite a bit

at say about the backstory. I'll try to You know

break it down so I'm not taking so much time

but Ted wolf created the Thundercats And I think

it was later than picked up by Rankin Bass. I

don't think that he was commissioned by Rankin

Bass to create the Thundercats. And then they

decided that, you know, hey, there's this, you

know, these really great characters. Let's let's

use these characters in some way and turn it

into a cartoon. And I think that they seem to

me they developed a richer history, a richer

backstory with the Thundercats. It seemed like

Silverhawks, they were Coming off the success

of Thundercats and trying to find some way to

you know create this other series I gotta jump

in though before you say that because I knew

this would come up eventually We got to set the

record straight here and I don't mean to to call

you out or anything but Both series were pitched

originally at the same meeting The Thundercats

and Silverhawks idea concept and everything were

pitched together The Silverhawks episodes, true,

were not made all before the Thundercats, but

all 65 episodes of Silverhawks were already done

with as far as written and everything before

the very first Thundercats episode even aired.

Interesting. This is on one of the special features,

I believe, on the Silverhawk set. um where they

say that they they pitch thundercats that was

the main reason why they were pitching it and

then they just kind of slid in at the end and

said and we also have this as far as the silverhawks

goes but then the the main um lady i can't remember

her name though that was behind it said that

literally all the silverhawks shows were done

as far as writing goes and developing i mean

they weren't made obviously but they were already

written basically before the first thundercats

episode aired and i think it's very common for

everybody to say that silverhawks was just playing

off of the success of thundercats Now, I'm not

saying if Thundercats bombed, you know, maybe

they would have never been a Silver Rock, so

it is partly due to their success that they were

able to make the show, but I don't want anybody

to misinterpret the ideas that happened during

Silver Rocks to be taken because Thundercats

was successful, because they had no idea Thundercats

was successful. was going to be successful when

they wrote Silverhawk. Okay, I said my piece.

Continue on. All right, now I have a piece before

Tim continues because I have to counteract what

Kevin just said. Larry Kenny told us in the original

interview that we did with him that they were

recording voices in 1983 for Thundercats. Right,

voices. I'm not talking about the actual production.

No, I know you're not. I know you're not, but

what I'm saying is the Thundercats production

even though this by eighty five the silverhawk

stuff was already written the thundercats production

was already well into development in eighty three

right my main point is that neither one of them

was nothing was done based on the success of

one of them it could have been done allowed to

be produced and made into a show because of the

success of thundercats but as far as the back

the the stuff behind the scenes had nothing to

do with thundercats success had already been

done by that point Okay, Tim, you can continue

now. Sorry. Oh, no. And I appreciate that backstory

on that, Kevin, because I didn't know that was

the case. But I will say, I'll rephrase, that

it feels to me like Thundercats was the superior

product. And it aired first. I saw it first.

And then along comes Silver Fox. So it seemed

like Thundercats was the one that was the Success

first and then they tried to write, you know

create something else to to match that success

so to me it was like, oh we're doing this but

now it's in space and Didn't quite appeal to

me as much I did watch it as a kid I enjoyed

Silverhawks I can't say that I enjoyed it as

much watching it again as an adult the way I

did with Thundercats But I also think one of

the things that appeals to me about the backstory

of Thundercats over the Silverhawks is that,

you know, they're leaving their homeland, their

home world. Lion -O is this young cub, as they

call him, and you've got Jaga, the wise one,

who's, you know, they're telling them all is

going to be okay, and, you know, he's, you know,

helping Lion -O, he's giving him some guidance

that's going to help him. later on as he grows,

which he doesn't really quite understand at that

point. And then they go into stasis lock and,

you know, Jago basically tells them, you know,

I'm too old, I'm not even going to survive. So

I have to pilot this ship to get you to this

planet that Panthero said, you know, has a 99

.7 % chance of of sustaining life, you know,

air that we can breathe. And I just, you know,

I just find it so fascinating. And then, you

know, they they crash on the planet and Lionel

has to defend the ship. by himself against the

mutants who are there to scavenge the ship and

take what is there. And then Jaga shows up. And

that's one of the aspects I really love about

Thundercats too, is that Jaga is there, he's

a mentor, he's a spirit, and it just adds something

to the series. The Silverhawks opening, it's

basically two parts. The first part is all about

Mondstar. getting out of prison because the the

the opening is Commander Stargazer reporting

the earth and saying I need help And they're

saying hey, give me this report. He gives them

this report and says, okay, you know this time

monstar You know basically breaks out of prison.

So the whole first half of the episode is monstar

breaking out of prison and then the second half

is on earth where they're turning these humans

into, you know, partly metal, partly real Silverhawks

so they can withstand the trip in space, you

know, to Hawkhaven to help Commander Stargazer.

So you don't even really, the Silverhawks don't

even get to Commander Stargazer until the second

episode of the series. Right, it's a kind of

interesting way to introduce things where you

don't really give the main characters in the

first episode so much. Yeah, and actually when

they started off that episode, they introduced

all the characters. So Silverhawks opens up and

they tell you basically who the players are and

you get to see all the villains. So they're both

good. I can almost call this one as a tie, honestly.

Maybe Paul will be able to convince you one way

or the other. I doubt it. For me, my interests

as a kid were the robots and the things of that

sort of nature. So naturally, I would gravitate

towards the silver hawks. I'm like, oh wow, they're

becoming cyborgs, basically. That's so cool.

So that's something that would play into my personal

interests. For and Tim you brought up a terrific

point that you know the entire first episode

of silver hawks is is basically the introduction

of the main villain and For me, I I really do

like that It's it's something that's completely

different every other series that has come before

then you get the huge backstory about these good

guys and Why they're good guys. They're already

good guys. We already know that we don't need

to know how they became good guys, but with with

monstar I love seeing things from his perspective

right up front because this is a guy who's who's

evil he's just a bad dude and We get to know

why he's like that and what goes into his mentality

and things of that nature. For me, it's just

something that's radically different than anything

that we've ever gotten before. We always get

the good guys. It's always the good guys' perspective.

And I mean, I know you could say, well, you know,

he's a bad guy. We know he's going to be a bad

guy. But it's just something that's different.

And I remember as a kid watching him and seeing

him and as opposed to seeing Lionel, you know,

using the Sword of Omens for the first time,

we get to see Monstar using his powers for the

first time. And getting like, ooh, you know,

for me, it was I instantly got a sense of how

powerful this guy is and how serious he is. So

that was something that always stuck in my mind.

And I always kind of remember that. And I don't

want to say I appreciated it more, but it was

definitely something that was different. And

It was it was just for me different. That's all

I can really think of I mean everything else

is I Mean Mike brought up, you know how and I

jokingly, you know made comments about how it's

just like others You know, so when I'm watching

Thundercats Mike you're right. I saw that introduction

in Transformers. I saw the planet blowing up

with Superman it was the same kind of stuff so

now now imagine imagine Superman but Instead

of starting off with the origin of Superman,

we got the origin of Lex Luthor It would it would

kind of in my mind it would give a different

kind of tone to the movie in general And that's

what I really liked about the Silverhawks. So

I'm sticking with Silverhawks on that one Fair

enough Steve any comments on stuff that we've

been saying before we all give our final vote

on the actual backstory I actually have to go

back to what you Said earlier and actually I

completely agree with your your statement. So

it's actually kind of moot for me to repeat it

Which statement? I Don't remember everybody else's

talk since then but I remembered agreeing with

you It was probably the thing where you said

about that Thundercats was more backstory for

the heroes and Silverhawks was more backstory

for the villain Well, Mike, did you give a definite

vote on this one yet? Thundercats. You said Thundercats.

Paul says Silverhawks. Tim, what was your vote?

It's going to hurt me, but I'm going to say Silverhawks.

Why? Steve? Thundercats. Oh! Everybody's getting

shanked tonight. I guess that means I have to

break the tie on this one. Yep. It's just so

hard for because I agree with a lot of what Paul

saying is that I like the interesting part of

introducing the villain aspect and I do like

moon stars introduction much better than mamaraz

and I just thought of something good I just thought

of something as a kid I never did understand

why why you know aged and nobody else did Because

they were all already older. No, I know Now that

I am 33 years old and I've gone back and rewatched

it, it now makes sense. But as a kid, it made

no damn sense to me whatsoever. I do remember

for a little bit as a kid being confused as to

that, as well. Because I was pretty young when

I watched this for the first time and I didn't...

you know it's not like today where you you miss

something or you don't understand something you

just click on the internet or something and go

back and re -watch it. What was it YouTube back

then? Yeah there was no YouTube back then. That's

what I'm saying you can't do that back then so

back then you saw these episodes one time and

it would have been a long time before you saw

that episode again. Right because of syndication

now I will say now that Paul brought that up

though the way I see it is Jaga had said that

he would never survive the The suspension stuff.

Jaga wouldn't, Jaga wouldn't. Right, Jaga wouldn't

because he was already so old. However, when,

uh, Sheetara, Tigra, and Panthero specifically,

those three, think of them when they started

in that, in Exodus, when they first started.

Think of them as maybe 25 years old. And I see

where you're going. And by the time they got

to third earth, they were 35 years old. Okay,

I see where you're going, but then why weren't

Wile E. Kitt and Kat older? Another thing is

interesting is that the Thundercats and the Silverhawks

both have sci -fi Backstories, right? Like they're

both completely science fiction origin stories

You know, which one makes which one makes more

sense As a kid Silverhawks, which one was more

unique Silverhawks, which one was more interesting

from the hero standpoint Thundercats For the

uniqueness alone just because we've seen it before

Thundercats we saw it in Other things like Mike

said we saw in different things the same basic

origin story I'm gonna give it to the uniqueness

of Silverhawks So, yeah backstory is a tough

one and I still don't even know if I made the

right choice but moving on to the next topic

Which is the setting basically and what I mean

by the setting is third earth as far as the thundercats

go versus the galaxy of limbo as far as Silverhawks

go and I'd like to say my piece first here Because

this is something that has always bugged me I

love sword and sorcery Stuff. I love Dungeons

and Dragons. I love he -man. I love thundercats.

Do not get me wrong But something that always

bugs me about these things is whenever you have

a planet in a fantasy sword and sorcery type

environment as you're setting, there apparently

are no rules. There are no rules to the size

of this place. There is no rules as far as how

many different environments you can create and

act like they always existed on this place. I

know that there are maps that people have made

of these places, but they're all bullshit. Because

the maps of these places would be impossible

because they'd have to be like so large and so

confusing because they put like a million different

environments in these places and To me what it

is in and it's the same for human and it's the

same for Dungeons and Dragons Those are just

the two that come to my mind as it is in thundercats

There was it seems like there was no setting,

there was no map, there was no outline as to

this world. It was created episode by episode

to fit each episode's need. Like, oh, we need

a forest. Boom. There's now a forest in Third

Earth. We need a jungle. Boom. We will create

a jungle. We'll name it, and we won't even tell

you where it's at in relation to the other places,

but it's just over there somewhere. And that's

always bugged me about all of those shows. On

the contrary, Silverhawks has a map shown in

one of the episodes, in one of the early episodes,

where it shows all of the planets in relation

to each other. And it stays consistent for 65

episodes as far as these are the planets in this

system. Out there somewhere is the time, you

know, is the limit to where they can go. the

silver rocks have no jurisdiction past that limit

and they very rarely talk about anything outside

of that limit so within their limit they have

a set universe they have a set environment with

set planets you have bed llama you have hawk

haven you have brimstar you have fence you have

dolar you have all of these things that have

their distinct environment and i appreciate that

more because it doesn't seem like Something where

the writers can just create new stuff to the

environment every single time to fit their needs

in the silver rocks. They're dealing with a.

With 3rd Earth, though? they had an entire planet

like okay like us here in the united states you're

going to compare the size of a planet to the

size of space yes yes i am damn it you'll you'll

fail miserably just shut the hell up right now

shut the hell up okay third earth they had an

entire planet so momra's pyramid could have been

in egypt wall cats layer could have been in africa

wallows and as it's never defined in the beginning

so it makes it seem like there's making up as

they go and again and and and and i agree they

probably were making no however about the point

of this was to talk about cats layer in hawkeye

and not know that's that's number six or on setting

number five uh... some jumping books yeah uh...

i like third because it was I liked it because

it was every unique setting was was so unique.

It wasn't just the same, you know. You could

make different planets have different things,

but there's you know, it's just on one planet

and there's so much that you can do on one planet

instead of having to go to 20 different planets

and then have one fall off the map because it

no longer exists. Oh, hi Mickey's dog. But but

see setting setting also, I mean, besides just

the actual physical places to me has to do with

the inhabitants of these environments too. Thundercats,

you literally have a thousand different people

you come across. Right. Silverhawks, you have

a... I almost want to save this for later. so

I'm not going to keep going into this very often,

but it just goes back to that consistency of

you know what you're getting at each place and

you know what the inhabitants of Fence are, you

know what the inhabitants of Bedlamah are, etc.

Whereas Third Earth, you turn the corner, you

go over this hill and it's like a whole new species

and a whole new environment that you didn't even

know existed. Okay, but that's the point though

with the two versions because in Third Earth

And in Thundercats, their planet blew up. They're

exploring this new planet. I get that. But like

I said, this isn't a gripe of mine specific for

Thundercats. This is a gripe of mine to any sword

and sorcery fantasy type setting that does this.

And to me, if they had a map or something laid

out or something to give some logical, you know,

like Lord of the Rings did it. Like Lord of the

Rings. Here we go. No, I'm saying it's a fantasy.

It's a sword and sorcery basic thing. But you

understood. But you knew where Mordor was in

relation to the Shire. Right. Yeah. Yeah. See,

I completely agree with Kevin on this one that

and I think what it boils down to is you don't

know where I mean you have the primary mode of

transportation for the Thundercats is the Thunder

Tank. You can literally go from an ocean to a

forest. to a desert in a span of like no time

at all like it's just down the block which for

me makes it seem as if their planet is like the

size of la i mean it really is kind of ridiculous

I appreciate that they have all these environments,

but it works better when you're in the vastness

of space where you have one planet that is like

this and you have another planet that is like

this and You see them traveling there through

the mirage. You know I mean they're space Dwelling

organisms that these people are riding on to

get from point a to point B And it seems more

realistic whereas when you're looking at third

Earth. It's like oh I'm gonna go over to the

desert and I'm just going to walk out my front

door and it's going to be there. There's no cohesion

there. I couldn't stand that either. That was

always one thing that bugged me. Looking at it

through the context of Storytelling I understand

why they do it and I mean it's it's it's it makes

sense I mean, we're gonna have a story about

you know, the burbles and you know, here's the

forest. Okay, that's fine You know now we're

gonna you know, go over to mum Ron. He's in a

pyramid in a desert, you know, that's fine I

mean, I understand for the story it they kind

of you know, I don't want to say they had to

do it but It just seemed like they got lazy with

it At least was super Hawks. I mean, yes, it

was very simple. You can go from one planet to

the next planet, but at least it explained Why

there is so much of a difference in terms of

the different settings for me was easier as a

kid to conceptualize it understand it and and

accept it and As a kid, like I said with human

with all these other ones. I always couldn't

accept the fact that every week There was a place

that we were not it didn't have a place in my

brain and that show up until that week. And I'm

like, wait a second, we've never heard about

this place before. And I think that was the problem

as a kid is watching it through a child's mind

and Silverhawks, everything had a space and a

spot and a location that made sense in my brain.

And every week I wasn't like trying to figure

out where the heck they came up with this place.

Right. Damn. Yeah, I I like thundercast for the

reasons that Kevin hates it and I And I hate

silver hawks to the settings for the reason that

Kevin likes it The mapping thing it doesn't mean

anything to me. I just don't care And I know

the whole JRO JRR Tolkien You know mythos had

this own map and everything and I just look at

that and go I don't care, you know, I really

That's because you're not a historian geographic

person. I'm just kidding. Right, and that may

be. I really like the discovery aspect of Thundercats.

I like tuning in every week to find out where

they're going to be next. I know it doesn't necessarily

make sense. I can understand the argument that

they've got a tank, but yet they're going to

all these places. How fast does this tank go?

How can they possibly get here and there and

do it so quickly? I also remember there were

episodes where they would go out in the tank

or they would Maybe go out in the feline or and

they wouldn't be back the next episode necessarily

And we don't really know how much time there

was between episodes But I really liked that

because it gave the writers freedom to just put

the Thundercats in all these different environments

and meet different characters and as Mike was

saying It's a planet. We don't know how big third

Earth is It could be huge. I mean, look at all

the different terrain there is on Earth, and

Earth really isn't that big of a planet. So I

really don't have... There's a planet with no

oceans. I'm sorry? There's a planet with no oceans.

They never got to a geographic aspect of this

planet that prevented them from getting from

one place to another or from... See, my problem

is if you compare it to Earth, and like Mike

said, and I think that's accurate, you could

say that, yes, all these different places could...

literally exist in a planet -size object. But

my problem is, like Paul was saying, they get

to all of them within an episode or two. And

I know you don't necessarily know how much time

is passing in this or that, but the proximity

that the forest must have to the jungle must

have to the desert, to whatever, is what I couldn't

buy as a kid because it seems like it should,

especially in an 80s mind, before everything

that we can do today and the internet and whatnot.

Whatever it just wasn't fathomable to me to buy

that they were getting to these areas such relative

speed and with no ocean to cross or with no You

know ridiculous huge mountain range to get over

That was my problem is how easily these places

were connected and you know as your kid these

are the times when you're learning about environments

and you're learning about different types of

like tundra versus jungle versus whatever and

it's all you know relative to you know how far

you are from the equator etc as far as earth

you know what we're taught as a kid and to me

it's like this had no rhyme or reason because

these places should not be able to exist in such

proximity to each other based on climate and

stuff like that I know I'm taking a way too scientific

approach to it, but for me as a kid I just thought

of this if Instead of the galaxy of limbo. I

know that's a cool name for a you know setting

for a story and all that if they just had it

in the Milky Way galaxy and use the other plant

used Mars you you know you you know worked around

I Think a lot of kids would have had more, you

know That would be another lesson for a kid because

you learn about the planets in school. I think

when we do the silver cats, we can do that. With

the silver cats. I think the lesson that they

would learn would contradict what they would,

watching the show would contradict what they

would learn in school because there's nothing

that's living on Jupiter. There's nothing that's

living on Saturn. Yes, it's true. But most people

like most people back then knew the difference

between Television and actual reality kids today

don't know that your phone your vote is that

that being said then? Why does it need to be

in the Milky Way galaxy? Is this in a galaxy

far far away? Mike your vote is for Thundercats

on this. Yes. I have a few more things I want

to say real quick about this for me Cartoons

don't have to always make sense and I think there's

a lot of that, you know and people especially

when they look back on old cartoons or saying

oh Well, there's you know, that can never happen.

That doesn't make any sense. I you know, it's

a cartoon I just I enjoy it in the moment. I

like You know again being surprised being taken

places. I like TV shows that take me to different

places, you know Law and Order is a great show,

but it's always in New York City almost always

and I like other shows that you know maybe you're

in the woods one week the next week you're in

the city some other week you're near the beach

or you know at a lake or you know I like being

taken to different places and with Silverhawk

it was basically the same boring settings over

and over and over again and watching that first

volume of the DVDs I just it was hard for me

to get through them I just kept thinking why

is it I don't like the show why am I getting

bored with it and it was a lot of just fighting

in space I mean yes they had the planets they

would go to. But a lot of times the background

was just space. I didn't really see much going

on on the planets that, you know, that you mentioned

that were part of this world. I think it's cool

if they, you know, they created this map and

they stayed within those boundaries. But it just

seems so boring. And if I was there, I'd say,

lock me up in that prison that you got Monstar

out of. See and I had this I like being in different

places and to me the planets each represent a

different area in a different place so I don't

I didn't get bored as much when I was watching

it whereas Thundercats I actually did find myself

getting more bored with the environment and stuff

even though you're getting introduced to new

things all the time to me it was the lack of

consistency that like I said it just bothered

me and I don't know why as a kid but even as

a kid I said they just created that for this

week's episode Well, let's all right. Let's face

it. Let's this the only time I want to point

this out because I point this out every time

we have a discussion about the this genre of

shows The 80s were not about continuity. It's

I didn't say there wasn't continuity. There's

kind of right There is but what I'm saying is

as far as the actual places Right, you know It's

not about continuity whereas as Tim alluded to

earlier with law and order. Yes, it is only in

one city, but you have multiple Areas of that

city that you're going to you know, so I don't

know Steve You don't know your desert in one

on one city blocking and a mountainous area in

another Steve way in so we can move on Okay Yeah

as far as those are concerned I I I like the

the the looks graphically of The the Third Earth,

but I have to agree. It's kind of just, you know,

a one shot, you know, make shit up as we go.

That and I'm more of a space fan than just sitting

here camped out on a planet. So I'm going to

have to go with Silverhawks on this one. And

the crowd rejoices. I'm glad Steve can just break

the tie, though, because I think we would have

been going like eight rounds on that one. Yeah,

cuz space is definitely cooler than just sitting

there on a planet. I Says the guy who loves Beast

Wars. That's that's good. Oh That's not different

on a spaceship So, what are the votes now mine

minus Thundercats Steve's is Silverhawks Tim.

What's your vote? It's Thundercats Thundercats

Both voted Silverhawks Yes, so moving on to something

similar but slightly different going more specific

here our sixth category here is The actual bases

we have the cat's lair versus Hawk Haven You

know the cat's lairs being helped co -built by

both the Thundercats and the burbills a giant

Sphinx like creature with stairs going up the

middle his paws lift up to let vehicles out people

can go exit through the mouth of the, I don't

know what kind of cat you want to call this,

just call it a sphinx. Whereas Hawkhaven is basically

like a planet type, smaller than a planet, but

like a asteroid, I don't know, sized thing with

a hawk coming out of it. And then the middle

of it has an opening where the silver hawks can

exit, the ships can exit, et cetera. Very similar

in some ways, but very different in others. We

haven't started with Tim before, so let's start

with Tim real quick on the bases as far as your

thoughts on Cat's Lair versus Hawk Haven. They're

both great designs. I really do like both of

them, but Hawk Haven is just a bird perched on

an egg. There's really not much very exciting

there. I guess you could sort of say a thing

about Catslayer, but Catslayer just does more.

I mean, those paws come up and the thunder tank

comes rolling out. I like that the cat head on

Catslayer rotates, and so that allows them to

scan the area and see what's out there, which

doesn't really give them a whole... Lot of you

know, it doesn't give them a very wide angle

view of what's going on But that's what they

used it for and then it also I think didn't eyes

shoot beams or something didn't yes. Yes, they

did. Yeah So I just I just like that design I

like that it's kind of tucked it in there and

in that cave Or part of that mountain that's

been blown up or whatever. It's really really

cool setting My vote just goes to cats layer

hands down I think the the coolest thing about

Hawk Haven is when they do the When they do the

actual shot of things leaving from the center

there It's a cool visual that they give but I

do agree that the cast layer has a lot more functionality

Paul your thoughts on the two bases In terms

of functionality, you're absolutely right. I

mean Tim Kevin You guys are absolutely correct.

I mean, obviously there's functionality about

that. I don't in terms of You know if you were

to draw a parallel between the two I mean they're

in space so naturally there's gonna be an asteroid

so you build a giant bird into the asteroid Conversely

the thundercats are on a planet so you build

the giant layer into the side of a mountain I

mean they're they're relevant to whatever cartoon

you're talking about. I mean there's there's

really not that much of a difference when it

comes down to it. But I do have to actually give

the edge to the Thundercats just because of the

functionality of their layer itself. And if you

would have asked me as a kid which one I thought

was cooler, I would have said the Cats layer.

I still desperately want a Cats layer for my

collection. Mike, thoughts on the bases? If you

say Hawk Haven, I'm gonna slap you. Well, all

right, here's the thing. Hawk Haven, I wonder

how many people, you know, got insurance policies

to build this thing. I mean, it looks like a

makeshift Death Star that's with a hawk on top

of it. I mean, that's pretty much what it is.

It goes to cat's lair, hands down. Functionality...

Coolness, it's much cooler than Hawkhaven. You

know, more storage room. I will say that Silverhawks

was at a disadvantage just in general of coming

up with a base because it was going to have to

be something similar to that. I'm not saying

that makes Hawkhaven any better, but I don't

know what else they could have come up with that

would have been as cool as Cat's Lair. No. Now,

correct me if I'm wrong. You're wrong. I seem

shut up all I seem to remember that did Hawk

Haven ever move? No, it did there that picture

doesn't necessarily show everything there is

usually I'm not talking about the picture in

general. I'm asking. I was just going to say

the only the only time anything ever happened

to it was there was some there's a part of it

that's below the actual asteroid that got ripped

off in one episode. But no, I don't. believe

i ever remember it moving uh i don't either it

just floated the the bay doors open to let ships

in and out steve what's your vote go to okay

this one for me is going to be easy i'm going

with the cat's lair it just looks cooler yep

yeah it's more it's more graphically and aesthetically

pleasing than hawkhaven it looks like it Like

Mike said, a hawk on a giant rock. It looks like

something that should be on your hood ornament

or something. Yeah, like on the front of your

Cadillac or something or your knockoff Mitsubishi.

Yeah. So our second unanimous topic here, we'll

go to one more here before we shift gears a little

bit. And that is the actual storytelling writing.

And we're not going to go super into like specific

details of each and every episode or anything

like that. We're just kind of a generic. Comment

on the storytelling or writing because for the

most part these are both What I like to call

just one -off episode shows where you have individual

episodes that Loosely can be connected to other

episodes, but there's not a giant overarching

story now. I will say that Thundercats has a

slightly different aspect to it because it ran

two seasons You know anything over the course

of one season can easily spend their first season

introducing characters and Kind of having a bunch

of one -off stories What happened that separates

these two in my mind a little bit and I haven't

decided necessarily who I'm giving a vote to

but in Thundercats second season stuff starts

to shift Instead of having one -off episodes.

We actually had overarching stories that continued

for, you know, multiple episodes. For example,

as far as the, what was it, the last bit of the

season where they were continuously trying to

find in Thundercats, they were trying to find

the different items that were scattered throughout,

what was it, New Thundera at that point. No,

I'm talking about the actual 1988 episodes where

there was kind of a overarching continuity because

they were trying to get the different treasures

as far as, you know, it's been a while since

I watched it, but they were trying to collect

the different things and it kind of carried an

overarching story, which wasn't something that

you saw in the first season of Thundercats. So

there was that aspect of we finally had some

overarching continuity lines during that second

season of Thundercats. Something that may have

happened if Silverhawks had a second season,

but since it didn't, if you were just to compare

the first seasons of both shows, they'd be very

similar. The one thing I want to point out here

is I just counted it up. Between the two series,

Silverhawks only did... Two multi -part stories.

They had four episodes that were part one and

part twos of each other Thundercats you had way

more suck like mini sagas like Thundercats. Oh

the movie Returned to Thundera had a four four

five parter So they had more even in the first

season. Yeah Even in the first season they had

more like self -contained mini stories than Silverhawks

did like feline or part one and part two But

overall both of them have had their you know

regular villain of the week or story of the week

episodes as well well just to Correct a minor

flaw there Silverhawks had three two -parters,

but that's not really that many more than two

so that's fine. ThunderCats still had more. My

point is in the first season of ThunderCats you

actually had less than that. You only had the

one. You had feline or part one and part two.

So my point was if you're just comparing the

first of them it's different but as soon as this

the Other stuff comes in Thundercats where you

have the Thundercats whole movie and then you

have the mum rah lives because what they did

is they Started every year with a basically a

five -parter So to speak so it was it was that

extra boost that they got an opportunity to do

stuff after that season one that separates the

as far as if you're just looking at a continuity

or That aspect of the show as far as the individual

storytelling. I mean it kind of comes down to

maybe a little bit of space stories. Whereas

in Silverhawks, you're constantly trying to capture

the mob and put them behind bars. Whereas in

Thundercats, it's more about the Sword of Omens,

getting a hold of that, maintaining the power

over Third Earth, et cetera. So the stories are

very different. I'm not saying which ones are

better. If you're going based on which one had

more continuity and story arcs, you might have

to go with Thundercats. But one thing I do, and

this last thing I'll say before I let you guys

talk, but the last thing I'll say about the writing

is, one thing I do appreciate on the Silverhawk

side, and it was kind of going back to what I

was saying before, and it has a little bit to

do with the setting, in Thundercats, you literally

are introduced to a million different characters.

And I know this because I screencapped pics of

every single person. And that talks. And my point

is, just like the environment, you're introduced

to new species of people all the time. You're

introduced to new characters all the time. And

so the writing is much more diverse as far as

amount of people you get introduced to. But for

me, it's cool about the Silverhawks is each planet

has its inhabitants that are used over and over.

There is very few characters in Silverhawks that

are only in one episode. almost no exceptions,

you always seem to see these people show up again.

And I like that from a writing standpoint in

Silverhawks is you never just introduce a character

for one episode. You introduce them and then

you might come back to them five episodes later

or ten episodes later. They might be involved

in something. And I like that aspect of Silverhawks

is that these planets have consistent inhabitants

that are part of the story. You get to know the

taxi driver. You get to know the, you know, the

kind of the bad inhabitants that frequent fence.

You get to, you know, there's certain people

in charge of each planet that are consistent

throughout the entire series so as far as continuity

you might get a little more from thundercats

as far as consistency you might get a little

bit more from silverhawks i'm not saying which

one i'm voting for but uh... mike you wanna talk

a little bit the thing for me is as we've already

stated thundercats played up to the heroes backstory

in the beginning and silverhawks played up to

the villains In Thundercats specifically, especially

with the Mumrah Lives multi -part episode, that

gave you more insight to Mumrah. Thundercats

Ho was amazing. The backstory of learning more

of the escape from Thundera, from the original

planet, and then them finding and creating a

new planet, you know, new Thundera. I prefer

Thundercats. Overall, however, I will say that,

you know, to me, Thundercats has more of that

overarching continuity because to me, Silverhawks

is basically metal space cops. You know, it's

a metal military unit is what it is to me, and

it's basically, you know, sure they can put character

development on every single character, sure they

can have. Pretty much yeah sure they can have

you know multiple different owners of planets

and multiple different villains I like in thundercats

that the main villain is mumra the mutants, and

then they bring in you know the others You know

other stuff, but overall mumra is the main one

The one thing I wanted to point out for Silverhawks

and one thing that I absolutely loved was actually

episode 49, Window in Time. Oh God, that was

good. Thank you for bringing that up. When hardware

accidentally finds a window in time and travels

back in time to before the Silverhawks left Earth

for the galaxy of Limbo, Flashback follows him

and tries to stop him from sabotaging the Mirage

and stopping the Silverhawks from reaching Limbo.

But can he do it in time? That was an amazing,

amazing storytelling episode right there. And

there was one previous that introduced a character,

and we'll get to them a little bit later, but

that introduced the character flashback that

was amazing. I actually tweeted last night that

it may have been one of the best 80s episodes

I've ever seen as far as storytelling goes because

when they got into the time travel aspect of

Silverhawks and some of those more sci -fi things,

the storytelling was phenomenal. And it happened

about halfway through to 2 .30. of the way through

their 65 seasons and really kind of rejuvenated

the series for me, and which is why I didn't

really get bored so quickly with the series.

But yeah, their time telling and time traveling

episodes were pretty good. Yeah. What about you,

Paul, as far as the overall story between the

both shows? In terms of the overall story in

the writing quality, I think we're looking at,

or at least me, I think we're comparing Two things

that really aren't all that equal we're comparing

something that had two seasons to something that

had one season now Because of you know the the

length of thundercats I think we're able to get

more things into it where you know obviously

you have more story arcs and things of that nature

now that being said with Thunder with fun with

the um the thundercats you're getting all these

different characters and all these different

things coming at you What I liked about, and

I think, Kevin, you said this, that with the

Silverhawks, you have less characters, but in

my opinion, you had more time spent with those

characters, as opposed to, we have a little bit

of time with this guy, and a little bit of time

with this guy. And it constantly keeps jumping

around with Thundercats. Yeah, there's a lot

more character development in Silverhawks. And

that, you know, for me, that is more quality

writing. When you're able to spend more time

with a character, and develop that personality

and that character itself, you can become more

attached to it and you can determine whether

or not you like it and you can pick parts of

your own personality and you can identify with

certain characters. Whereas if you're just having

a whole bunch of them thrown at you, you're kind

of like left looking back and forth and it's

like, who do I pick? Who's my favorite? Who's

more exciting than someone else? Because they

just don't have as much time to develop. 20 characters

as they do with 10 characters. So for me The

least it wasn't 130 in three episodes. Well,

you know that would that would be bad. Yeah For

me, it's just it's it's the quality of the storytelling

and Now that being said if you had more Seasons

with silver hawks could that have gotten watered

down? It's possible. I you never know but For

me it was just I was able to identify with the

characters more with Silverhawks and that's Because

of the writing that was put into them Yeah, you

were saying it could have gotten watered down

that was what I was thinking too I mean not I

think they're both good, but you know, even though

Thundercats had two seasons the more time and

the writers could say, okay We've done this in

season one. Where are we going to go with season

two? We've got 65 more episodes to write, guys.

They did a good job. Yeah. But it could very

well have just been filler and could have been,

you know, just crap and, you know, could really

left a bad mark on the whole franchise. But I

think they did a good job with it. And likewise

with Silverhawks, you know, they could have had

a second season and could have really gone places

and taken the franchise. In a direction and expanded

on what they already had but you know again,

I've watched these episodes the entire Thundercats

run and the volume 1 DVDs of Silverhawks recently

as an adult and and I just I find Thundercats

more enjoyable. I just the the repetitiveness

of the storytelling shows for me when watching

Silverhawks, and maybe that's because I'm not

really a big fan of the whole crime and mob stuff.

I'm more of an action -adventure guy. Like, as

I go back to what I talked about with the settings

with Thundercats and Silverhawks, is that the

settings allow for more diversity in the storytelling.

You know, as you said, bringing in other characters.

I like the snowman and snow meow and You know

some of the other characters that they they came

across on on third earth a new fund era, so My

votes for thundercats Paul just before we move

on what was your vote? Silverhawks, all right

I'll try to give my vote here. I'm really torn

because I do like the five parters I do like

a lot of the stuff that that happened in the

second season of thundercats, but man i like

the time traveling aspects of silver hawks and

the fact that we got to really know the additional

characters well and the fact that they were recurring

and i i don't want to penalize silver hawks just

because it didn't get that second season because

they both had very limited two parts or story

arcs or continuity if you just take their first

season against each other um oh goodness i'm

gonna go for the silver hawks mike i already

said thundercats what about you steve I'm gonna

go with Thundercats just because I like the storylines

better. It captured my attention. It's hard to

beat five -parters and stuff like that. Exactly.

If they're done right. Right. Right. Correctly.

Yes. Alright, so that does it for the big categories.

We're gonna move on to some easier categories

with our next selection. The sword will not obey

you, Lion -O. Huh? Chaga? The sword will never

obey in order to destroy Wantonly, Lion -O. Oh,

I was just going to have some fun. Fun? Your

food supplies are plentiful at present. And those

gentle creatures have as much right to the life

force as you do, Lion -O. The sword will only

come to life to combat evil. Do you understand?

Well, yes, Jaga. I guess so, but... Jaga? Oh,

he's gone. I have so many questions. Wow sure

is homey Your quicksilver, right? Yes, sir. That's

right. Oh can they sir stuff lieutenant? We're

gonna be working together too closely for all

that right. Let me introduce no offense quicksilver

But let's make the intro short your steel art,

right? And you must be your little brother steel

will right you got it. Put it there commander

Forget it. I've read your file Yes, you're the

copper kid. From the planet of the mimes, huh?

Never been there myself. Colonel Bluegrass, right?

Young for a Colonel. Aw, shucks. Just naturally

talented, Commander. So, you're the latest models,

huh? Pretty slick. And first up in our series

of six categories in a row that are dealing with

the characters, the first one is the Masters

or the Mentors, so to speak, which we compare

Jaga from Silverhawks to Commander Stargazer.

Uh, what the fuck? You know what I meant. Jogger

from the Thundercats to commander stargazer from

it's Paul's got me all confused here. Oh, come

on now Wait me it's those damn Californians.

They can either start either from the Silver

Rocks the two leaders That's what we're talking

about Mike started off. Save me. Um, all right

commander stargazer Out of the episodes of Silver

Rocks that I've watched in preparation for this

He's just a hard -nosed drill sergeant to me.

He has no real character has no real emotion

other than get the job done and get it done right.

Except for he does have a lot of connections

to the different characters that they're hunting

down. Right. He's had previous experience. He

does, but... And he's made of gold. They're...

He's your standard military officer. He's not,

you know, he's your standard military high -ranking

officer There might I believe there's a couple

episodes where stuff might hit home for him Like

wasn't there one having to do with his wife or

something like that? There's quite a few that

hit home for him Right, but whereas Jugga is

your typical dead spirit Okay, he is your typical

Obi -Wan and Anakin and all that stuff use the

force do not do not replace The original actor

with fucking Hayden Christensen. Thank you very

fucking much Shut up, so Jaga was more of a teacher

he was more of You know teaching Lionel for the

future and and even as a ghost you know i mean

the ghost of starscream didn't teach astro train

anything he just stole his body but you know

jaga he's still making lionel learn his lessons

as he is still growing up in in in lionel's mind

so for me this one that goes to jaga tim i think

jog is just awesome um and and he's I think it's

because he is that father figure that so many

kids want to have. You know, you want to have

someone who is wise, who can guide you and help

you out, and that's what he's doing with Lionel.

He's giving him guidance and helping him grow,

and Lionel did. He matured during the show, especially

that second season. You see where Lionel's not

questioning himself as much. And I can't remember

if Jaga even showed up as much in the second

season. I want to say he didn't but but yeah

Stargazer I kind of see him Similar to what Mike

was describing is kind of this drill sergeant

I don't think he was quite that hard -nosed,

but he was still just kind of you know kind of

they're giving them direction And he did shows

emotion But it was somewhat limited so my votes

for Jaga I do like the fact that Stargazer was

the only one made of gold and that he had the

cool eyepiece and that he had the history of,

you know, they brought villains down that he

had originally put in the, you know, behind bars

and, you know, that he's the one calling for

replacements or for the original Silverhawks.

Like, I do think he has more character than Mike

was giving him credit for. But Jaga's just pretty

cool. Unlike Mike, I'm not afraid to make a vote

for the other show. So I will vote for thundercats

on this one anyways Paul I'm sticking I'm sticking

with silver hawks. I love the the connection

that's the the master as as they're being called

to the master to the main villain of it and how

there's a there's a history between stargazer

and monstar and how Stargazer was you know, I

mean he captured them in the past And now he's

too old to really kind of do it again. And here

comes the new group of Silverhawks that help

him out. Well, Jaga has that same connection

with Groon. I mean, you can make that same argument

for Thundercats. Groon is not the same as Mumrah.

So, you know, while that's nice, that's all well

and good, I don't care what you say. For me,

I like that personal connection. Between the

man who is leading the thundercats or the silver

hogs There I go again. I'm on medication guys.

Come on He's on drugs leading the silver hawks

in the battle against the main villain in the

show whereas Jaga I absolutely agree that I think

he's a wonderful mint and he trains why you know

very well, it's But but for me, there's not that

personal connection It's so it doesn't it doesn't

work for me. So I have to go stargazer Steve

I'm going with Jogger just because I like the

Obi -Wan ish type character and the cyber guy

kind of looks like a douche He's made out of

gold he's working he's not going to go out of

it said golden cyber douche somebody component

of this meant to make money off them that's right

they can help him down for that uh... So moving

on to our next group of people, the heroes, the

heroes that these masters were mentoring, et

cetera. On one side, we have Lion -O, Tigra,

Panthero, and Chitara. We're just talking about

the main original heroes. And on the Silverhawks,

we have Quicksilver, Bluegrass, Steelwheel, and

Steelheart. Now, obviously, like we said, Lion

-O is the young mentor. He's the main guy. Panthero

is the brute force. Chitara is the speed. And

Tigra is supposed to be kind of the wiser. at

least in this series, the wiser, you know, more

disciplined, full of integrity type character

as explained by the series creators. I'm not

making this up. So that's not just my words.

Quicksilver is the leader of the Silverhawks.

You have the Steelheart and Steelwill, which

are twins and they're very strong. And then you

have Bluegrass, who is the the pilot and the

music maker of the group. Let's start with With

paul on this one. You haven't started one. I

don't think so What are your opinions on just

the four main heroes of each series? in terms

of the four main heroes, uh, I One of my favorite

characters of all 80s cartoons Is is panthro?

It I make no secrets about it. I mean when it

came to thundercats I loved Panthero when it

came to Ninja Turtles. I loved Donatello when

it comes to Transformers. I love Wheeljack. I'm

into those. And that's one thing that Panthero,

he was, you know, I mean, yes, he was the brute

force, but he was also smart. I mean, he designed

the Thunder Tank. I mean, he knows what he's

doing. I was always very impressed with him.

But now, overall, in terms of all the characters,

I like the Silverhawks more. Quicksilver, I liked

more because he was already kind of a confident

leader. Whereas, Lionel was still trying to...

And I like the development of Lionel into a leader,

but I like the fact that Quickserver was already

there. Bluegrass... Bluegrass was always kind

of weird for me. He always... He always brought

a sense of humor to it, which I liked. But...

Honestly, I remember watching and I was like,

this guy's pointless. I mean, he flies the Mirage.

I was like, he doesn't work for me too much.

But now, with Steel Will and Steelheart... I

mean, obviously, you got Steelheart who's kind

of like the Chitara. I mean, there's parallels

with all of them. Well, Steelwill with Panthero.

But I like the fact that they were brother and

sister. I like the fact that they were twins.

And they had that connection going, obviously,

there. But just in terms of the characters overall,

I have to pick the Silverhawks. For me, I don't.

care for either of the females in this grouping

compared to some of the other 80s shows that

had much better female like superhero type characters

like She -Ra for example and even Tila and He

-Man far outweigh these two so I kind of discount

both female characters as I didn't like either

of them. Bluegrass I was obsessed with as a kid

he was like I was I don't know if it was the

cowboy hat or the blue metal or the song and

dance or what awarded the pilot. I don't know.

I for some reason loved Bluegrass. He was the

first Silverhawks figure I ever owned. Um, so

I loved him. And if you were, if we were to take

this just as like the two heroes, if we were

just comparing Lionel and Quicksilver, I would

give it to Silverhawks because I like Quicksilver

way better than I like Lionel. But for me, What

makes the difference in this category is TIGRA

and PANTHRO. I really like TIGRA and PANTHRO

for some reason. And like you said, PANTHRO was

the one coming up with all the different devices

and building all the things, similar to what

Steel Wheel and Steel Heart were doing, but PANTHRO

was doing it on its own. Earl Hyman did a great

job, but we'll talk about voices later. But the

combination of TIGRA and PANTHRO a little bit...

outweigh the Steelheart and the Steel Twins as

they're called. So overall, if we're gonna take

all four of them, I will take the Thundercats.

If we were just going on Lionel versus Quicksilver,

though, this would be a Silverhawks vote for

me. So, Mike... Should be no surprise, but...

Thundercats, because they're a family. I never

felt a family vibe with the Silverhawks. They're

all military officers. But they're not family!

They're not at all. At least the actual family

exists with the Silverhawks. There's a brother

and a sister. You just come. Okay, a brother

and a sister. Those two I can discount, but as

far as the overall between the four of them,

they're not a family at all, in my opinion. I

mean, sure, Bluegrass is Copperkid's father,

but other than that... Stop it. It goes to ThunderCats

because, as Paul said, I always gravitated towards

Panthro. Panthro was awesome. Each of the ThunderCats

characters has their own unique backstory and

character traits. Lionel is the young leader

learning. Tigra is the middle -aged wise man,

I guess you could say. Panthro is the tinker,

and Chitara is the hot piece of ass. No, she's

not. Yes, she is. The animation model. Shut up.

So mine goes to Thundercats. What about you,

Tim? Yeah, mine goes for Thundercats, too. The

Silverhawks, they're not very distinguishable,

in my opinion. I find most of them are just rather

boring. And I hate those sports metaphors that

steel heart and steel wheel are thrown out. That

just gets on my nerves. They're always high -fiving

each other and Yeah Because still heart I actually

like her and still will I was always a big fan

of these, you know big bulking characters when

I was younger Just like with Voltron. I was a

big fan of hunk. He was my favorite of the Voltron

force And I love panthro and thundercats too.

I just think that the stronger cast is on the

thundercats and quick silver He just seems really

boring to me. I think Tigra on the Thundercats

team is seen as a boring character, and I think

part of that's probably because of the delivery

that the voice actor gave for his character.

And I don't think he intended it to be that way.

He even said on one of the special features on

the DVDs that he didn't know he sounded so stiff

and boring. but I still think Quicksilver is

just like the blandest leader I've ever seen

in a cartoon. I like Bluegrass the most of the

Silverhawks. If you really want to look at it,

Quicksilver isn't the leader, Bluegrass is. Bluegrass

took way more charge in leading the team than

Quicksilver ever did. in the In terms of actual

physical rank, yeah bluegrass was higher ranked

than Quicksilver was But yeah, cuz in the pile

I was trying to think what rank they said he

was but One of the guys on the team put in the

Quicksilver Quicksilver or sorry the Silverhawks

team together on earth one of the aliens because

there were aliens actually putting the Quicksilver

team, I did it again, the Silverhawks teams together.

It's getting late. Blame it on me. But one of

the guys made a comment about, you know, what

is this cowboy doing here? And one of the guys

said, you know, that cowboy is a colonel or whatever,

you know, commander or whatever his rank was.

And it was meant to say this guy is a high ranking

military officer. So don't just carry him just

because he's wearing a cowboy hat. Bluegrass

is the colonel. And Quicksilver was just a lieutenant,

I believe. Right. And the other two were sergeants.

Yeah. And then obviously Sargeazer was like the

commander of them. So Quicksilver was the field

commander because Bluegrass usually was in the

Mirage and didn't actually go out and do the

actual... So that's why Quicksilver was in charge

of them in combat, so to speak. But yeah, Steve,

what is your vote for as far as the main heroes

go? I'm voting for... the thundercats because

because Their personalities better cutter As

far as the kids are concerned somebody's typing

I hear bitching going on I mean, it all boils

down to the fact that, you know, it depends on

your preference of the character styles. Yeah,

you have, you know, your three males and the

one female in both teams, but it's, I don't know.

I think I like the characters better themselves

on Thundercats than on Silverhawks, as far as

the heroes are concerned. Yeah, I can see that

I mean there's an easy argument for them having

bigger personalities on the Thundercats And then

the Silverhawks being more somewhat blander or

cookie -cutter so to speak so that makes sense

our next character Discussion might be the hardest

one for me to come up with a winner And that's

the villain of the show the main villain. We're

talking mumra versus moan star Now, they each

have two forms. This is where we go all Transformers

on everybody. Because Mumra has the decrepit

old mummy -like guy. And then Mumrah, the ever

living, when he goes crazy and bulks up and everything.

And then you have Mondstar, who is like a furry

beast animal thing that turns into a spiky middle

beast -like thing. Still very similar in size

compared to the difference in size that we get

with Mumrah. To me, I think one thing that has

to be brought up here is that Mumrah can only

be his bigger form in certain conditions. Right.

Whereas Moanstar does need the moon beam to trigger

his transformation, but nothing necessarily makes

it go away. Right. He has no kryptonite. Right.

So if you're taking the weaker forms of both

of them, Moanstar is the more... Badass weaker

guy if you want to say it because he's still

badass in both forms if you're comparing the

two hulked up versions I think they're very similar

Although you do have to say that Mumra has this

magical Wizardry type power whereas most are

is more of a Muscle leave mob leader type person,

right? But I'll let you guys talk because I still

haven't made up my mind on this one. I'm I'm

just gonna say one thing one of the reasons I

Wish that to me You know monstar is all about.

Oh, I need the moonbeam I need this to power

up and he has this badass Form before it looks

I I took a screencap of his of his left eye glowing

and it's so badass and then he just Turns into

a transforming robot. I mean, that's all it is.

It's it. It's a fucking transformer It looks

like shit to me. I don't like it whatsoever.

So as far as the overall look I prefer mum rah

What what does mom what does mon stars other

form really give him though? That's what I don't

really Hold on, you gotta understand that number

one, we're out in space, which means that there's

a lot of laser type fighting, which is a different

type of fighting than we have in Thundercats,

and his metallic version is number one more defensible

against that than his, I guess what you want

to call his beast version or whatever. And it's

not just him that transforms, he also transforms

his vehicle. It's almost like a He -Man transformation

where Battle Cat hulks up too. He has his like...

octopus squid thing squid is that what it is

um sky runner sky runner that turns into a kind

of a badass assault vehicle as well so it's not

just him that's that's doing it it's his vehicle

as well um but um run needs no vehicle his pyramid

is his vehicle right but as far as like what

it does for him um he he does Now this is where

it's kind of falls back on the animation of the

80s. There are times when you see him in his

hulked up version that he is gigantic. Like there's

one scene where he's standing next to, I don't

even remember who he's standing next to, and

he is just hulking over him, which he doesn't

do when he's in his previous version, even though

at the surface they seem like they're about the

same size, but you got a picture that the spiky

version is actually a lot bigger. I just, I like

the overall design of, of, you know, pre -steroid

Mondstar. I like both versions of Mumrah, so

I think I'm gonna give it to Mumrah and give

it to Thundercats on this. I like the wizardry

of Mumrah, but I don't like that one of his versions

is so weak, whereas Mondstar's are both strong.

I still haven't made my decision yet, but Paul,

go ahead. Yeah, the thing that, in terms of,

you know, villain, you know, it's... Mumrah as

his regular version is such a weakling. It doesn't

seem like he can beat anybody in that form. He

has to become his hulked up version. Whereas

at least with Monstar, his normal version seems

like he could actually be a menace and actually

do something and not have to do the transformation.

And I know we're going to talk about this later

on, but... You know, as a kid, you know, when

you're watching these shows on TV, you draw a

connection with them because you're playing with

the toys as well. And for me, I always preferred

Monstar because the toy was so much cooler. I

mean, you had you had the toy that you just flipped

it, you know, his head could flip and you would

have both versions, whereas Mumrob, you just

had the hulked up version of them. And that was

it. So. For me, I gotta go with Monstar. Like,

for Mumra, Mumra scared me more as a kid. He

was more creepy and scary. But if I was picking

who I wanted to lead my bad guys, I would've

been like, Monstar's more of a badass. Even though

Mumra's scarier and has his magical powers, Monstar

is just intimidating as all hell. I'm still torn,

I'm still on the fence. Tim? Steve? Or Steve.

I don't remember who it was. Whoever wants to

talk. Tim I guess you could go Okay I From a

visual aspect. I like the Design of mum rah a

lot more both in his weak mummy form and his

bulked up form I did like mon star too. I remember

drawing Mon star as a kid and other characters

like him because I like that, you know the idea

of the spikes coming out ahead I thought that

was so cool but Also, I like that Mumra has to

depend on the ancient spirits of evil, you know,

to perform his transformation. And during the

course of the show, there was one point where

the ancient spirits of evil decided they didn't

want to help Mumra anymore because he'd failed

so many times to stop the Thundercats. And he

was able to come back and, you know... gain their

favor again, become Mamra. And really all that

Monstar had to do was have Yes Man pull a few

levers to tilt the planet just right so that

the Moonstar could shine a beam through and into

his eye. And I think that Monstar's form before

the transformation is much cooler, like Mike

said. So I'm going to vote for Thundercats. I'm

going to vote for Mamra. The other thing I will

say real quick about those two characters is,

as far as, like I said, you know, Mammar has

magical power so he can do some stuff that Mondstar

can't. If you're basing it on who was the better

leader and fighter and all that stuff though,

like, I just think Mondstar had, he was in battle

more, he was used more, and he didn't ever have

any of his people ever try to like... backstab

him really to to an extent like there's a lot

of loyalty there i mean besides the fact that

sometimes it wouldn't pay them and they would

try to hold out for money or whatever no one

was trying to battle with moanstar because he

was such a badass but i guess nobody was really

trying to battle with mumurai either uh... steve

what do you think about these two guys uh...

i'm gonna have to go with silverhawks in this

one uh... just because the bad guy looks Like

I'm not too thrilled with his his robotic form,

but his other form looks fucking wicked compared

to Mumra Mumra just looks like a Mummy that's

kind of a knockoff a Skeletor and kind of a sissy.

Yeah so To me that guy's like weak by comparison

Whereas mine start is He just looks like he's

a fiery death trap. Yeah, that is true The other

thing I want to point out really quickly before

we move on is mum rah in his mummy form Would

always create things whether it's a bat whether

it's others, you know other magic rangers He

would use the magic to his advantage. Take the

episode Tim mentioned earlier about tricking

Tygra and all that stuff. He will use the magic

to his advantage and I think that's something

that Monstar doesn't have any kind of advantage

like that. The only thing I hated was that his

reflection was his weakness. I got him so many

times. Seems like he had a lot of weaknesses,

is my problem. Like, he had the cooler speech,

that's for sure. As far as transformation speech,

I like, you know, ancient spirits of evil type

thing, a little bit better than moan stars, even

though they're both kind of iconic. I think what

it boils down, for me, if I have to pick who's

going to be my big badass boss leader, I want

somebody that's badass 100 % of the time, not

40 % of the time when he doesn't see his own

reflection. But I don't want to make this seem

like it's a big dread. To me it's like a 50 .5

% to 49 .5%. I'm barely, barely, barely giving

this to Monstar. Just because he's badass in

both modes. Instead of just one. So next up on

our group of characters we have to deal with

the rest of the bad guys from both of these shows.

With Thundercats we have the likes of people

like Rotaro, Groon, Vultureman, Monkey and Sly,

then Jackalman. And Silverhawks, we have Melodia,

Poker Face, Yes Man, Wind Hammer, Mumbo Jumbo,

Buzzsaw Hardware, Molecular, and I could throw

in there Timestopper and a few other people as

well. I gotta go first on this one because I

got a lot to say here, but I'll say it quickly.

To me, this was always, always, always, and I

love Thundercats, but this was always the weakest

aspect of the Thundercats show, was the henchmen.

Not developed to the point where I don't know

there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of character

development outside of maybe slide I mean vulture

man and Jackal man's neither one of them have

a brain if they might as well both be beast man

from he man You know Grun was badass I'll give

him that but He wasn't used like you can't count

this as the 2011 Grun. This is the original Grun

and He was the baddest out of all of them as

far as the most badass and everything but to

me they just there's something lacking from the

bad guys they all seem like henchmen to me whereas

the personalities of the silver hawks guys are

incredible um poker face you know being the casino

type guy and having His eyes I love his eyes

his eyes change and make different things like

one time he gets knocked out and one eye says

K and the other says oh Or they'll come up with

you know clubs or hearts or spades or different

stuff on his eyes. That's cool Yes, man, even

though he is the weakest and just like the Little

whipping boy of moan star. I love the characterization

of him and how he speaks straight out of like

just old -school like cool like mobster type

persona there Windhammer had powers beyond control

as far as his cyclones and tornadoes. Mumbo Jumbo

was kind of whatever. I could care less. He was

a bull that never hit anything. Buzzsaw had a

lot of spinning spikes and blades and stuff,

so he was cool. Hardware came up with so many

things. Hardware was like the device master.

He would come up with the sky shadow. He'd come

up with all kinds of different effects and stuff.

Obviously, we talked about Melodia with her music

and Molecular was just badass with his turning

into different forms. And Timestopper was something

I don't think I'd ever seen before at that point

in the 80s, was a character who could literally

hit his belt and everything would freeze for

one minute, and he could do whatever he wanted

to for a minute before everything else came to

life. There was just a lot more diversity, personality.

I love the Silverhawks villains. And to me, outside

of Mumrai and maybe Groon, the Thundercats villains

were just there. just so that they could have

a story. There was nothing to them. Paul, what

do you have to say about the villains? I mean,

you bring up a terrific point. When you look

at the bad, at least for me, when you look at

the bad guys for Thundercats, all of them seem

like they need to have Mumrah. They're his henchmen.

They're there for him. Whereas with the Silverhawks,

I can really see all of them. being successful

villains on their own. I mean, if you were to

look at, you know, like a mob setting, you know,

I could see all of them being the head bosses

of individual mobs that are working with Monstar

and Molecular. I mean, he was always my favorite.

Just he was, I mean, just absolutely ridiculously

badass. So. For me, I think they're better characters

simply because on their own, they could be successful.

Probably not as successful, but at least, you

know, outside of what you said with Groon, none

of the other henchmen for Mumra really, I think,

could make it on their own as bad guys. And to

me, it's like if Skeletor was surrounded by seven

beastmen. Like there's no yeah, there's no diversity

between some of these characters now I'll give

you slide has a little bit more brains working

for him and groom obviously has the historic

badassness but like Vulture man monkey in and

Jackal man. There's no difference between those

three characters besides how they speak and that

they're different animals They're the same character.

I Don't to me. There's nothing there. They're

not deep enough. There's there's not enough to

the Thundercats villains I know these other guys

are gonna say otherwise, but... No. Go ahead,

Mike. I'll let Tim go first. Go ahead, Tim. Okay,

Mike, I like the Thundercats villains. I especially

like Groon. I think he's one of the strongest

of the Thundercat villains to be in the series.

And there were, you know, villains here and there,

but yeah, the four main... Villains really did

depend on mom on mum rah And silver hawk villains,

there was more diversity there and they certainly

seemed more competent at least You know most

of them You know bus all I'm not sure he was

one of the strongest of the villains but And

then same thing with mumbo -jumbo as you said,

but the other ones were very strong characters

I really like Melodia She's always a joy to watch.

I like episodes with her in it. I think Wind

Hammer's really cool. He's really, you know,

really cool design character. It seems somewhat

simple, but I really like his design. Yeah, and

Poker Face, he's cool. I like the molecular.

Looks like a bunch of molecules stuck together

and he can transform into other things to disguise

himself. He looks like the dude with the Fruit

of the Looms. Great. He does. He looks like a

great dude. And even though that Slythe and Hardware

look so similar and they sound similar, you think,

oh, you know, it's basically the same mold. They

just, you know, created these two separate characters.

But Hardware's, he's really cool. I mean, he's

always got some trick up his sleeve. He's always

got some other gadget that he's ready to use

against the Silverhawks. And, you know, I do

think that the Silverhawk villains are better

and I'm gonna have to give my vote to Silverhawks

on this one. Alright, first things first, Melodia

needs to go join the Misfits because she just

doesn't fit to me. She needs to go join Pizazz

and the Misfits. She's awesome, I like her, but

she just doesn't fit with the rest of the gang

to me. You know, Wind Hammer, his weapon's a

goddamn tuning fork, really? Compared to what,

Jackalman's weapon? Yeah. Come on. At least he

actually had a weapon. What was it? Tell me what

Jackman's weapon was. A bow. A staff. How creative.

Hey, at least it's an actual weapon instead of

a fucking tuning fork. The tuning fork does mastery

things there with the hurricanes. Here, let me

pull out a bow. Watch what I can do with this

big stick. You probably can't even tell me what

Monkian's weapon is. Nunchucks. Monkian is essentially

Michelangelo. So we got a bow and nunchucks.

Okay, so... And the thing about Vultureman, you

guys mentioned Vultureman earlier. Vultureman

essentially is a panthero for the villains. He's

the one making all the stuff, making all the

vehicles, putting shit together. This category

is just going to prove one thing to me. That

you're not looking at this in any type of objective

standpoint. This is by far a landslide for Silverhawks.

Yeah. No. Not at all. You have a level of retardation

that I don't think has ever been properly diagnosed.

You live in California, there's more retards

out there. I was not - Anyways, going back to

this, Groon, for what he does show up, because

he eventually goes away after a while, and he

and Jaga end up fighting in the stars forever.

I liked him as a character, he was pretty cool.

I don't know, I just don't like the whole mob

thing with the Silverhawks. It reminds me of

bad DC villains, really. What in limbo is wrong

with you? So we really don't even need to talk

to you the rest of the time, we'll just give

your vote to the Thundercats and move on. Shut

up. Yeah. Steve, what's your thoughts on the

villains? Feel free to vote for Thundercats.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm going

to rip on you for that. I'm only ripping on Mike

because he's had 13 consecutive Thundercats votes.

That's the only reason I'm ripping on Mike. Did

you just say silver cats? Yeah, probably. Silver

cats. If I say silver cats, it means I'm voting

for both. Dang it. And that's not allowed. Honestly,

all these villains look like ass. Like literal

ass? Yes, like literal ass. But Silver Fox screams

80s cheese. Yes, it does. You've got Jem and

the villains. These came out in the 80s. You

can't hold that against them. I can too. In 2012,

yes you can, but not in 1980. Shut your pie hole.

Yes, master. Um, yeah, I mean You get friggin

Igor you get a bowl you get somebody it looks

like from Power Rangers with the bubbles all

over his head. I mean And granted I haven't seen

enough to really tell their personalities enough

But just from seeing that alone I'm gonna have

to go with thundercats as far as the villains

because they at least are consistent And that's

purely on seeing them and not having seen enough

episodes to see them in action. So let that be

heard across the board here. Right. What I will

say is, the original Foreign Thundercats, they

all have their faults. Slythe was a little bit

more sinister. But once Rattaro came in, Rattaro

was, I mean, essentially when Rattaro joined

the cast, The other four were basically his lieutenants

at that point because Retaro was meant to be

this huge giant evil general person. And he kicked

so much ass when he entered the scene. Okay.

I'm glad your vote didn't count too much, Mike.

Coming on to the next category, which is the

sidekicks, because come on, it can't be an 80s

cartoon without a sidekick. I'm already gonna

stab you. We've seen so many horribly annoying

sidekicks from Orko to Scrappy Doo to, I'm just

kidding, I didn't say that. So in this one we

have Snarf and the Copper Kid. And I actually

don't hate either one of these characters, but

I think Copper Kid is probably the least annoying

sidekick in 80s lore. I know he doesn't speak

and he's from the Planet of Mimes and whatnot,

but there was something I really liked as a kid

about Copper Kid. You know, I like Snarf, too.

He's a little more annoying, though. And I don't

know. Copper Kid was kind of cool. And he had

this that he took out of his hip and flung at

people. Like who? Paul, what do you think about

the sidekicks? I think you're right on that when

it comes to Snarf and Copperkid where we're doing

a presidential election where you pick the lesser

of two evils. Recount, recount. I mean, Snarf,

the biggest problem that I had with him was he

was always, always, always questioning everything

that everybody was doing for good or bad. You

know, like, are you sure you want to go over

there? I mean, stop it. I mean, at some point

in time, just let Lionel go be a retard and fall

down a cliff. OK, that's which. Huh, which he

was so annoying on the 80s show even though I

still kind of liked him He was so annoying that

that's that's why they don't allow him to speak

on the 2011 version Exactly, and I love that

Love it now with copper kid. I actually I actually

dug him like I said earlier I mean, I love the

fact that they utilize the the mathematical rhythms

of the you know The different beeps and the tones

and things in his speech. I thought that was

really cool. Plus there was always that that

connection again as a child at you know and we'll

talk about this later on where at the end of

the show you know he would always do his little

education lesson that that i always really enjoyed

actually so copper kid while kind of an annoyance

in both of these series i think could have benefited

from both of snarf and copper kid not existing

in them I think copper kid is the lesser of the

two evil. So I'm picking copper kid is my favorite

Tim a lot of people hate sidekicks in cartoons

and A lot of people mention snarf when when you

start talking about sidekicks that they just

absolutely hate But I I actually liked him. I

found him kind of a lovable character. He didn't

bother me when I was younger He didn't bother

me when I was trying to watch the show again

as an adult. Now the other snarfer and the rest

of that race, there were several of those characters

that annoyed me quite a bit. But yeah, I thought

he was a good character. He was there to watch

over Lion -O. That was his job to try to protect

him. So I didn't really have a problem with him.

Copper kid he's he's okay. He added some color

to the team. It's a different color I did like

the discs that he would throw so that was a cool

aspect to his character, but yeah, you know,

I I really don't have He had more of an impact

and an effect on the actual Like he took part

in the battles and took on the bad guys won,

you know mano -a -mano at times which is Snarf

was more like oracle. He would only do that by

dumb luck. I don't know if that's a vote for

either one of them, but Yeah, snarf is definitely

not a fighter. He's not built for it Although

in some episodes I noticed how large he looks

sometimes Well, those episodes are probably after

Snarfer landed on Third Earth or New Thundera,

because once Snarfer came in, it actually gave

Snarf some character development of saying, hey,

look, you have this nephew that you need to look

after. And at that point in time, Lionel had

already grown up enough where he didn't need

a nursemaid anymore. So Snarf had more character

development in dealing with his nephew Snarfer

than anything else. for me I Didn't care for

either of them as a kid But going back and watching

both cartoons and watching different episodes

Copper kid annoyed me less and less As a kid

You're on the fence throughout this fucking episode.

You can't call either way, you asshole. I'm on

the fence, jackass. As a kid, I probably learned

more as far as test -taking from CopperKid than

anything else as far as the PSAs go, so my vote

actually goes to CopperKid and SilverHawks. Oh

my god. Oh my god. He did it. He said the words.

He said the words. Steve. Shut up. And hell froze

over. Yeah, what are your thoughts Steve um?

Well, I'm a fan of snarf as Much as I can't stand

the sure sure sure like constantly um I I still

found him more amusing Obviously because copper

kid doesn't say anything, but I'm not a fan of

anybody that doesn't say anything in his show

With the exception of snake eyes Fair enough.

We have been tortured with the non -speaking

characters lately. Yeah, I mean, Transformers

Prime, we have two of them. Alright, well, that's

a discussion for another day. I don't want to

get into that debate. I understand that. However,

that still applies to why I chose what I chose.

You've got to snap out of it, Lion -O! Call the

Thundercats before - Shut up, you fuck. As far

as - our last character one we have the the new

characters that came in either mid -season or

between seasons or or wherever some of them came

in at different times but the new thundercats

were links all myra and bangali and the new i

said thundercats right yes new silverhawks i'm

never gonna say these correct again now after

this episode we're a hot wing fucking paul's

fault hot wing flashback condor and moon striker

now Hot wing was introduced a little before the

rest of them and then flashback came in and then

condor and moon striker came in on the same episode

Whereas the three thundercats thundercats all

came in at the same time Real quickly on the

thundercats. I always thought Ben Galley looked

awesome. Even though he's basically another version

of tiger I always thought visually he looked

cool and he had a cool weapon Going back and

watching the episodes though when he shows up

he's hard to watch like And I know we'll talk

about voices later, but the voice is bad for

him. You know, you thought Tiger was slow and

square -like. It's worse with Bengali. And I

wanted to like him because he looks cool to me,

you know, the Bengal Tiger look and everything,

but he was just awful in the actual animation

aspects of the show, whereas Linkso looked like

a badass and was pretty much a badass. I can't

say anything bad about Linkso. To me, Pamyra

was neither here nor there. She was a non -issue

for me. For the Silverhawks, Moonstriker is one

of the gayest characters I've ever seen in my

life. He looks like Steel Will's dad. We will

just take Moonstriker with his blonde hair and

blue body and discount him. So we're now looking

three against three. Condor was cool because

he was like the old grizzled veteran that was

around when Stargazer was that's now coming back.

He'd kind of been doing his own thing for a while

and now he comes back. Hotwing was like the dude

from Mike Tyson's Punch -Out that had the little

thing in his... is a magic howling could do all

kinds of crazy stuff and he was the first silverhawks

figure ever has a kind of a special spot for

him but his his first episode he's in is really

cool because all the other than a cast a captured

and he comes in and and sprees a lot of other

cats so well with his magic you know what i mean

and uh... flashback episode flashback is part

of some of the best silverhawks episodes in the

whole run because he's the time traveler uh...

He's the one that can basically manipulate himself.

And he also has a pretty cool design. That's

not a great picture in the script, but he's there's

better pictures on the link I gave you guys,

but he's got a cool design and he's all the time

travel episodes. So to me, I like Condor, Hotwing

and Flashback. Whereas on the Thundercat side,

I only like Linxo, even though I wanted to like

Bengali. So, so my vote for this one is for the

Silverhawks. I'll let Tim go next. This is where

I think the Thundercats had a better cast of

new characters Because not only did they have

the good guys you're talking about here with

they also had the Loon attacks that came in So

I want to include them as part of as this as

well Because when you bring in new characters,

it can almost be the death knell for a show You

know if they're if they're not interesting if

people don't like them then people go okay, you

know, this is this is the jump the shark moment

and And we'll just be done with the show On the

other hand the silver hawks characters that they

brought in added more personality to The team

and the show like you said with hot wing the

episode where he showed up I was like, oh, yeah,

you know, this guy's awesome and then he was

gone And I know I don't remember seeing the episodes

with flashbacks so that must have come later

in season one Yeah, it came about episode 40

something. Yeah, and I don't remember condor

or moon striker and In those episodes either

and I haven't seen those those shows in such

a long time that I can't really comment on on

their personalities, but But yeah link so he

was He was a really cool character, another strong

character, kind of like Panthro, but also very

wise, like Jaga. It was interesting to see that

the Silverhawks brought in new characters and

tried to be more racially diverse, and then the

Thundercats brought in new characters and were

more diverse as far as, like, the handicapped.

Sorry, that was just irrelevant, but... Yeah,

so, and yeah, I like the Luna attacks too. So

when they brought in The new Thundercat characters,

they brought in the Loon attacks as well, and

that added more villains for them to pull into

the cast and use them to create more diverse

stories. So yeah, I like the Thundercat's new

characters more than Silverhawks. Mike? Thundercats,

because it goes back to the origin story. Because

originally, Linkso, Bengali, and Pumira were

going to escape with the Thundercat Nobles. Uh,

or they were going to attempt to because when

they were trying to escape, because on Thun -

on Thun - I almost said Thundar. Wow, this is

not Thundar the Barbarian over here. Um, fuck.

Um. When they were trying to escape because the

entire planet was trying to escape Their ship

got damaged because of all the earthquakes or

whatever it was or the planet exploding They

tried to get to the noble ship, but they could

never get there They then came back and told

that story of how they wanted to be on the noble

ship ship at that time Link so as as Tim said

is kind of filled the jogger roll a little bit

Yes, Jugga still appears and everything else,

but he kind of fills that at this point. And

you basically at this point had two separate

teams. You had the original Nobles at Cat's Lair,

and you had Linkso, Pumira, and Bengali at Tower

of Omens. Yeah. So they're basically two outposts.

And that's what I liked best about it was it

was two completely different teams and tons of

different personality. If Ben Galley would have

been as cool as he looked I might have been able

to get up and get on with you guys, but To me,

it's just links though and the other two are

just not as good. But Paul, what do you think?

I like what Mike said about how you know, you

had two different kind of teams going on but

that being said that really kind of as a kid

would always pull my interest in You know as

a kid I already had a ridiculously bad attention

span so I couldn't focus on more than one thing.

Just like now. Well, yeah, pretty much. Well,

yeah, it's kind of weird how that turns out.

But, you know, with Silverhawks, I think some

of the best storytelling that I've seen in a

very long time, like Kevin was saying, was the

whole time travel aspect. And Flashback brought

that into it. And it really entertained me. It

was definitely something that was neat and you

got to see You know a little bit more. I don't

want to say history, but you know You see you

see more with stargazer and things of that nature

But um and and I'll go out and say it regardless

of how gay he looks. I actually like to moon

striker He was cool cuz he could self -propelled

he could self -propelled, but I like I liked

his his arrogance That was always something that

really kind of appealed to me, which again might

play into how I am as an adult. I don't know.

But I mean, so those two characters, you know,

really, really did. I mean, when they came in,

I enjoyed episodes with them. Hot wing. Throw

them on the barbie and cook them up. There you

go. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't all that. not not

people are gonna be like it's because he was

black right the name didn't bother me it was

it was just you know for me there was always

a stark difference between thundercats and silver

hawks sometimes I would get confused and you

know what actually be under hawks but There was,

you know, there was the whole science -y aspect

that the Silverhawks brought in, you know, the

technology and science and things like that.

You're in space. And Thundercats was more of

a mystical sort of thing. When Hawin came in,

it was kind of like you're bringing that mysticism

into Silverhawks. And that always kind of bugged

me. I never got a good feel with that. He had

a cool voice, though. Anyway. He had a cool voice.

Speaking of voices, though, Condor I absolutely

loved because he sounded like Humphrey Bogart.

And I always I always thought that that was just

cool I mean I could have cared less about anything

that that dude did as soon as he talked I was

like, oh cool. Um, so Just just in terms of the

newer characters, you know that came in silverhawks

were always better for me. I mean The the thundercat

ones they just never did anything for me It was

always you know, you had like like Mike said

there was two groups of them and I was more emotionally

attached to the original group, they got more

of the screen time, and I could never really

get attached to the new guys. Steve, you have

to break another tie. Oh, no. We can make it

$40 right here. $200, you got a deal. Nice. Don't

base it off the crappy pictures I put in the

script, please. Hmm. All righty then You can

do it you can do it yeah links on condor the

two old guys That's the only comparisons I can

make between the two groups This is the part

where you edit in the song I'm gonna be in I'm

gonna be an ass to you but yes, um I Think that

while innovative on the On both sides actually,

I mean because both of them have at least these

Humans on silver hawks look a little more diverse

I'm not quite a fan of them either though I'm

still gonna have to go with the thundercats on

this one. Oh Now you just lost the 20 bucks that

you made earlier are winning. All right, I'm

winning Moving on past we've had enough characters

for now. We're done with the characters Moving

on to some other stuff starting with weapons

weaponry Just a quick rundown, you know with

thundercats. We have stuff like the sword of

omens with its site beyond site We have the bolas

we have the nunchucks with open -away cat paws,

we have the bow staff, the little ball gimmicks

that the two kids have, and that's just talking

about the heroes, so to speak. Silver hawks,

obviously we have the army of hawks, all the

different birds that each one had, which each

had their own abilities. The razor -edged disks

that... Cobra Kid had, just in essence, their

bodies are weapons. They're bionic bodies. They

have metal armor. They have wings that are retractable.

They have a protective mask that they can put

on and not. They have thrusters on their elbows.

They also have, well, some on the elbow, some

on the feet. They have laser weapons at different

spots of their body. So that's just kind of with

the heroes. If we were talking about villains,

There's a whole different range of them. And

like we said, Bengali had the cool hammer. Mike

said that the villains for Thundercats were basically

the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. With the Thundercats,

it's a lot more actual like handheld weapons

like you would see on like the turtles or like

He -Man or this or that. Whereas Silverhawks,

it's a lot more technology, I guess, is how you

could sum it up. Mike, what are your thoughts

on the different types of weaponry? I like the

military weapons for what they are. I like how

you're going up against a mob who's going to

use guns. You're going to need more than a sword

that has magical powers. But at the same time,

the mutants and the Luntaks and Rattaro and all

those guys, they all had some sort of blaster

or something. I think it's going to go to thundercats

for me simply because of what each thundercat

was able to do with their weapons. And it's more

hand -to -hand, more martial art -like combat.

If you could choose to carry around a bow staff,

or if you could have a body that is a weapon

of itself, which would you choose? Neither. I

want the Sword of Omens, damn it. Well, that's

kind of cheating. no it's not cheating it's it's

the right fucking answer i'm just saying but

no i gotta give it to thundercats on on this

one simply because of how each individual person

use their weapons in their own because it's not

often that you know say lionel's off you know

fighting snowmeow you know sure he's going to

call the thundercats in after about five minutes

but that's five minutes of him battling on his

own you know Same thing with Chitara or Panthero.

My vote goes to Thundercats. What about you,

Tim? I kind of feel like this is similar to the

heroes and villains discussion. I feel like,

you know, there I felt like Thundercats had the

better heroes and Silverhawks had more well -defined

villains, and it's kind of the same way here.

I feel like the Thundercats are the heroes. They

get the cool weapons and the villains not so

much. Whereas with Silverhawks, it was kind of

the opposite. You know, the good guys just had

their laser guns on their shoulders, and yeah,

they had their wings so they could fly. They

did have the hawks, and each one of them got

a hawk in one episode. I remember that. But the

villains in Silverhawks... Let's all go to the

pet store. Let's all go to the pet store. Those

cats are badass. But yeah, like you're saying,

the villains had some cool weapons. Yeah, the

villains had the cool weapons in Silverhawks.

But I love the Thundercats weapons and you just

can't beat the Sword of Omens. So the vote is

for Thundercats. Paul? Again again, I draw to

What what I loved as a kid and Playing with the

toys and again, I know we're gonna talk about

this later on But so she could probably already

put my vote down for the toy aspect. Um, it's

I loved playing with the toys and having those

wings and When I saw those, you know them flying

around on TV as soon as I saw that all of them

in my opinion had a sword of omens, with the

exception of bluegrass. But, you know, that was

the cool thing. You put your arms down, you lift

it up and you got wings and you're flying around.

But could wings really be defined as a weapon?

I don't know. Well, probably not so much a weapon

as it got them into a place where they could

use their weapon. Well, turn them each into a

fighting jet, basically. Oh, yeah. Good answer.

Good answer. So, if a fighter jet's a weapon...

So, here's one other theory that... I'll go back

to what Kevin said earlier about trying to make

sense of things. How do wings work in space when

there's no freeze? Well, you can't... Yeah, we

can't... If we were to dissect these about the

space and the right or wrong as far as what they

get away with... We've been here for five hours

past what we've already been here for. Yeah,

they did have jets in their feet, though. So,

okay. Sorry, sorry to interrupt. Well, you could

also say how could they talk in the vacuum of

space, but that's neither here nor there. Yeah,

that's the other thing that bugs me. Oh god,

here we go. But you also have a planet of a whole

bunch of animals running around, and they're

not in the Milky Way galaxy, as Mike has already

explained to us before, so they're in a different

galaxy where all the laws of physics don't apply.

You know, weapons, it's... You know, I mean,

like I said, I like the wings, so I always looked

at that as they all had that special ability,

like the Sword of Omens gave Lionel, and to my

recollection, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm probably

wrong, but the only thing that the Sword of Omens

did was got bigger and gave Lionel sight beyond

sight. Did it actually, I mean, did it help him

really do anything? Not really, no. I mean, it

was just a big -ass sword. I mean, that was all,

I mean, so the only thing that the Sword of Omens

could really benefit somebody, if you were to

take Lionel and put him up against Quicksilver,

the only thing that the Sword of Omens would

protect him from would be Tallyhawks smacking

him from the back of the head. See, the hawks

is what does it for me. Yeah, I mean, I have

to, I mean, I have to give the edge to the Silverhawks

just on those, on the hawks. I mean, each one

of them had a hawk that had a different ability

and whatnot. And to me, it's also what Tim said,

the bad guy's weapons were better, too, because

you had Poker Face, which had his little staff

thing that could shoot all kinds of different

stuff out of it. You had the Wind Hammer. Yeah,

don't forget the tuning fork. Yeah, the tuning

fork, which was badass. Monestar had a pretty

cool little gun that he used. But then you had

these hawks that were like each had their own

abilities which and to me if you're gonna Give

me a choice carry some num trucks, which I'm

probably gonna hit myself with and hurt myself

Carry a bow which could be broken by any sword

that anyone else was carrying or fly around thank

god tv's mr neil is not on this episode because

we would get into a dual lightsaber battle of

how uncool it is because it would cut your fucking

arm off i'm just saying you have these you have

your choice of carrying nunchucks or a bow around

or you have a choice of being suited with metal

armor being able to fly and shoot lasers out

of your body why are we talking about this no

kid would choose a bow over a metal armored suit

with wings and lasers We're talking about this

because you put it in the fucking script. Sorry,

my vote's for the Silverhawks. Steve? Oh, there's

gonna be some pissed off people tonight. I'm

going to have to go with Silverhawks on this

one. And it's not that I wouldn't want to have

the Sword of Omens, but as stated... It's sight

beyond sight and you have a big fucking sword.

Yes, it's cool But I would rather have a freaking

suit of armor that I could pound the shit out

of somebody that's annoying me Yeah So I would

rather have the gear it I mean think about it.

It's like running around as Iron Man Basically

and then you also have a pet bird that's gonna

kick people's ass. Yeah, so it's kind of hard

to argue with that I agree. Alright, next category.

I am so on the fence with this one it's ridiculous,

but I will admit we're talking about vehicles

and We can talk about all the vehicles. I just

put pictures of the main vehicles, which are

the Thunder Tank and the Mirage. I don't think

it's spelled like that, but... Since Kevin is

on the fence, I'm actually gonna go first on

this one because... I just want to make sure

we're not just talking about these two, but you

can focus on these two. Right, you're right.

We can talk about all the different vehicles

from both series. But the main two are the Thunder

Tank and the Mirage. And you did spell it correctly.

Okay. That's how they do spell it. That's what

I thought. When I first, because I haven't...

Besides the I wasn't really paying attention

to the Mirage when I was watching the cartoons

back But just looking at this image Paul does

that remind you of anything that has come out

in the current day toy line for Thundercats?

It kind of looks like the 2011 Thunder Tank and

damn fucking right as you you know, so Combine

both of them. Yeah The Mirage was just it was

a transport vehicle it was a no no no stop stop

you gotta stop right there wrong because first

of all the the front section like it's like the

star ship enterprise and can disengage from the

rest of the body and go solo on a flight right

it can but essentially individual things shoot

out you know they do but essentially through

most of the episodes that i watched it was the

silver hawks on their own flying through space

okay Same difference I will say that stargazer

had his own motorcycle space motorcycle And then

they each had their own little individual vehicle

on top of the mirage, too Whether it be a flying

vehicle or a motorbike of some sort even though

it's in space shush the Thunder tank was just

cooler for me It couldn't go over mountains and

through streams and trees and icicles and That's

right. The Thunder Tank, between the Mirage and

the Thunder Tank, the Thunder Tank was just cooler

for me. Especially when you put that music to

the Thunder Tank because it was so awesome. As

far as other vehicles like the Fee Liner and

all that stuff, I like them. But nothing really

beat the Thunder Tank. The thing is, to me, Thunder

Cats, you only had vehicles really with the Thunder

Cats. yeah I mean as far as prevalence as far

as how often you see them whereas like the mutants

had the gliders that they used a lot yeah they

had the gliders slide had the nose diver yeah

when it comes to the villains vehicles though

I really like the fact that the Silverhawks each

had their like 1920 style like space cruisers

vintage squid. Give me a fuck. No and the squid

Yeah, I shadow you had the taxi cab you had a

lot of cool like vintage like earth type things

as well as your futuristic space like Mirage

type vehicles I do think the Thunder tank was

badass and I do think a lot of the Thunder cats

vehicles are badass I just didn't care for much

of the mutants vehicles. I mean, I know they're

talking about bad logistics How the fuck does

a squid survive in fucking space? The same way

cats talk. Come on now. Put that in your pipe

and smoke it. We're not going to be realistic.

These are cartoons. There's no realistic part.

Well, my vote goes to Thundercats. Alright, Paul,

talk about the vehicles. You know, for me, we

were talking about this before with weapons and

I kinda... showed my hand a little bit. I consider

all the Silverhawks with built -in vehicles,

and I always thought that that was absolutely

ridiculously cool. Build upon that, you have

the Mirage, which kind of like was a, okay, we

got to go a little bit further than our wings

can take us, so we're going to hop in here. I

really, you know, and Mike, you actually kind

of helped me with this because I was kind of

on the fence about it. When I got the new thunder

cap or the thunder tank from the 2011 series

it made me want to go to eBay and buy a mirage

Because it reminded me of how much I thought

that thing was cool And I'm absolutely not gonna

buy one because that's the most ridiculously

priced vintage Yeah, we'll get to that in a second,

but um, you know, I mean I think that the thunder

tank is very cool looking but to me it's Kevin,

you made the joke about how it could go over

everything. And while it can, to me, it just

seemed limiting. I go with the Mirage, and I

love the fact that as soon as Bluegrass separated

it, the back rear section could disappear. That

is a cloaking device. Yeah, I thought that was

cool. So I mean, that part's hidden. answers

that age old question about what happens to Optimus

Prime's trailer when he transforms? What happens

to the back of the Mirage? Well, yeah, what happens

to the back of the Mirage? Well, it disappears.

But Bluegrass would acknowledge it and he'd be

like, stay here. Right, exactly. I mean, it was,

it was an autopilot. Yeah. And I love, I love

the, the, the, I mean, obviously you had Panther

with, you know, his connection to the Thunder

tank, but Bluegrass just seemed a whole lot more

connected to the mirage probably because that

was the only way he could get anywhere So I mean

it was that I mean the mirage was his buddy that

was his sidekick And I mean it almost was like

the mirage itself was a whole nother character

Unto itself, so I'm going with the mirage Tim

I thought Mike was gonna go there, but Yeah,

no, I mean, I thought you're going to go a different

direction when you were talking earlier. Oh,

really? I think some of our listeners might remember

a show called G -Force or Battle of the Planets.

And that's what the Mirage reminds me of is the

Phoenix from that cartoon. It's somewhat similar

in its design. And each character had a vehicle

that would transport them to the spaceship or

in some cases be taken into or lifted up into

the spaceship. So Mirage kind of reminds me of

that. I think it's a really cool ship. I like

the design. It is sort of a transport ship. It

does have some unique features to it. Like I

said, the center pod can... Eject from that and

bluegrass can fly around in it and it has weaponry

and then he can make the back part disappear

for a brief time Or even a long time I guess

but But yeah, I I really like the Thunder tank

You know when you see it, you just know what

it is. I think it's so unique in its design.

It really stands out from anything else I've

seen or remember seeing in cartoons. And the

secondary vehicles like the gliders that we mentioned,

the feline are in those things, they're okay.

But it's you know, those aren't things I look

at and go, Oh, wow, I want that toy. But when

you see the the Thunder Tank, it's like, I want

that or when you see the mirage, you say, I want

that toy. And especially, you know, we get into

the toy discussion later, I know, but But yeah,

the Mirage was really cool because the toys actually

fit inside those pods. So that was pretty neat

It's it's difficult to choose honestly, like

you said you were just taking the secondary vehicles

against each other I think the Silverhawks would

have an edge I think if you're just taking the

Thunder Tank against the Mirage, maybe the Thunder

Tank gets an edge So it's kind of hard when you

take them all together I'm torn too. Did you

did you have a vote or are you still torn? Yeah,

I think I'm going to vote Thundercats on this

one, but just slightly over the Silverhawks.

They both had some pretty cool vehicles, especially

those main two that you'd really want to own

as a kid, and I never owned either one of them.

Yeah, I did neither. Steve, what are your thoughts

on the vehicles? Well, just based on these particular

two, the Thunder Tank and the Mirage, the Not

to knock the thunder tank, but it looks like

a rejected GI Joe mobile The thunder tank is

better than any GI Joe tank ever made Maybe differ

but did you watch it? Did you watch it in the

show much Steve or are you just going by design?

I'm going by design Okay, I can see where that

would would play a role in your it I could see

where it could be better as far as the show,

but they've never fought Cobra, so it's kind

of a moot point. Wopro would kick Cobra commander's

ass any day. This I command. Yeah, I don't particularly

care for it because it looks like a rejected

like snow cat or you know It does have paws that

go up and down in a mouth that goes up and down,

but it does look like a snow cat I'll give you

that and I mean just from the back treads I Prefer

sky fire. I mean mirage Don't you mean jet fire

It's sky fire it just has two extra things on

either side cockpits I like that vehicle a lot

better. Okay. If we were just going off of the

two, Thunder Tank versus Mirage, my vote would

be for Thunder Tank. I think just one on one,

it was the cooler vehicle. So I will say that

for the ThunderCats fans out there. But if we're

going for vehicles overall in the entire show,

I like the Silverhawks vehicles better. So a

half a vote for Thunder Tank, but a whole vote

for the Silverhawks. Moving on now to a completely

different category. We're almost done. We just

got about five categories left here. Our next

category is voice acting, the voices of the shows.

Now this is an interesting one because, you know,

we do this when we have cartoons against each

other and we will in the future. This one's interesting

because it's basically the same voice cast for

both of them with a few exceptions. And the main

exceptions here are Thundercats. We had Earl

Hyman from Cosby fame. Grandpa Cosby, as Panthero.

And in Silverhawks we had Adolf Caesar as Hotwing.

But the main difference to me is the females.

Lynn Lipton as Chitara in Thundercats versus

Maggie Wheeler as all of the females. Well, Lynn

Lipton was basically all the females in Thundercats

until Jerry and Raphael came around. And Maggie

Wheeler was the female voice for all the Silverhawks.

So that's the main difference. Otherwise you

have the same Larry Kenny, Peter Newman, Bob

McFadden, Earl Hammond. We're in both shows.

So their voices are pretty Like well -known well,

well, I'm just saying we can kind of wash them

out because they're in both shows I mean quicksilver

is Tiger, you know, that's why probably why Tim

why you were saying they're somewhat both kind

of boring because it's the same voice so quicksilver

and tiger the same voice whereas You know Lionel

and bluegrass with the country accent are the

same voice So they kind of flipped roles and

that shape um monstar and mumara are the same

voice for me without going into the individual

characters it boils down to the females and mike

you should know where this is going because lynn

lipton here we go is one of the worst female

voice actors of all time The voice of Chitara.

I like the character. I like everything else

and trust me guys I listen to a lot of voices

on a daily basis and Lynn Lipton is terrible

Whereas Maggie Wheeler who now you can hear in

most notably probably like shows like The Archer

And you've seen her on TV. She's the very much

like Fran Drescher as far as her one voice goes

But Maggie Wheeler is a much better voice actress

So I like the females in Silverhawks better than...

Was she the chick who played... Oh, what the

hell's her name? I don't know what the hell I'm

doing. In California? In Friends. Did any of

you guys watch Friends? Yeah, you're talking

about the Fran Drescher type character. Yeah,

the one that would constantly keep going on with

Chandler. Yeah. That's just... I mean, I'm looking

at her picture, it looks like the exact same...

Oh my god. But she doesn't use that voice always

no, I know I know on the special features She

actually spoke about this and she said it was

this role as Melodia that where she discovered

she had that annoying Because that's not her

regular voice. Obviously, she doesn't normally

speak like she does on friends But it was it

was this role that kind of showed her that you

know grading kind of annoying voice that she

used later as Janice on Friends, but you know

she doesn't use it when she talks with Steelheart.

You know her voice is different in that situation.

So I just love her voice if compared to Lynn

Lipton who is terrible. But someone else talk

about voices. I will agree that Melodia's voice

is better than Lynn Lipton's usual voicing, but

I always did like her Chitara. I just thought

her Chitara was really good. But I am going to

give it to Silverhawks. As far as just the females,

I will give it to Silverhawks. As far as overall

cast, my vote is for Thundercats. How does that

make any sense? It makes sense, dammit. Okay,

you gave a half point to Silverhawks. No, what

I'm saying is the rest of the cast is the same.

It's still sound I didn't like country lion.

Oh, thank you very much. I like regular lion.

Oh country lion, you know I'm still my vote for

You said the only difference in the two cast

you like silverhawks better And so for where

the rest of the cast is the exact same you like

thundercats better My vote goes to thundercats.

Of course it does Paul speak on this because

I can't When it comes, you know, I mean because

for the most part, you know The voice actors

are all the same and and there's just different

kind of tweaks to to the different people different

characters that I really am Right down the middle

on which one I would like now Where I do give

the edge it goes to in my opinion. It goes to

the writing and what the voice actors have to

say and what kind of story they're telling. And

I prefer the Silverhawks aspect of the whole

writing thing. And I just think the delivery

for the performances that the voice actors are

giving are better suited to the stories that

are in the Silverhawks. They did go a little

bit away in the voice direction as far as they

didn't make it as like... William Shatner ask

like thundercats was no no no no Excuse me, but

what I mean is like I mean all these you know

I mean you can come you can say you know one

person's better than the other they're all fairly

talented and they all know what they're doing

and in and both have Lipton well okay except

for her so She never did another voice outside

of the rank -and -bass properties. That's a very

good point right there though um You know, I

mean both I mean so aside from lid silver hawks

and thundercats benefited from having terrific

voice actors and When it comes down to it, I

think it's the story that they have to tell.

I mean you could you could give you know, um

Larry Kenny, you know a part that sounds you

know, it's written like absolute crap and You

know, I mean he can do the best that he possibly

can but it's still gonna come across as crap

because whatever's written for him is crap so

For me, the Silverhawk stories, not saying that

the Thundercats stories were bad, or crap for

that matter, I just tend to like the Silverhawk

stories more, so that's where I'm going. I think

the voice actors did a better job with those

stories than the Thundercats. Before Tim speaks,

I do got to give a shout out. Bob McFadden by

far is the most experienced and the most diverse

in his voices on the show. If you go through

and listen episode by episode, you can absolutely

tell who Larry Kenny is voicing. You can absolutely

tell who Peter Newman is voicing. And that's

not a knock against those two individuals. They're

great with their voices. You know, Jackle Man

compared to Lionel, there's different, you can

still tell it's him, but it's completely different

voices. But Bob McFadden is like, he's back from

the days before television. And he's a genius

voice actor. So I want to give him some credit.

I didn't think of this though, until you just

said that, Paul, and that is the Thundercats

was a little bit more as far as plotting with

the voice. direction as far as it was a little

bit more. Both shows are known for their over

-the -top voice acting because that's how it

was written, but Thundercats even to a little

bit more of an extreme. Like I said, for me it

just boils down to the females of both shows.

But Tim, how do you feel about the voices? I

think that one of the anchors that's missing

from Silverhawks is Earl Hyman. I mean his voice

was just... so big. When I heard Panthero talking,

I watched the pilot episode of Thundercats just

before the show, and there's dead silence while

they're in the ship. He's delivering his lines

about the planet that he found where there could

be Life where they could you know, breathe the

air and everything. I mean just any time he's

talking it just grabs your attention He just

has that commanding voice. So I really wish he

had been somewhere in the Silverhawks cast Yeah,

but I I do agree that Lynn Lipton has a very

dry delivery And a lot of her characters sound

very similar Whereas the other cast like you

said you can tell that it's But it's not the

voice of why I know or is the voice of tiger

doing this other voice, but it's not so close

that You pick it up right away and as a kid you

might not Right. Yeah. Yeah, but when you're

listening to mandora the evil chaser, you're

going wow That sounds just like chitara Or luna

or whoever it is in the one of the amazonian

women. Yeah So I I do see that argument I do

like her voice in Chitara. I think it's fine.

Yeah, it is sort of dry, but it's kind of sexy.

She comes off as a little older woman. I wasn't

that bothered by it, but I certainly see why

people have issue with her voice in that character,

why that delivery can be a problem for some people.

But again, Earl Hyman, I can't... vote for Silverhawks

because I can't see that difference in the female

characters really having that big of an impact

on the entirety of the show. And Earl missing

from Silverhawks is that missing piece. Yeah,

if there is a reason to vote for Thundercats,

I think it is Earl Hyman. Steve? I'm doing a

cop out. I'm going with Thundercats just because

I am more familiar with it. Fair enough. Moving

on then to our last few here, the end of the

series. We talked about the backstories and the

origin stories. We got to talk a little bit about

the ending of the series as far as how they come

to a close, how it's left off. It may not seem

like it's fair because Silverhawks is one season

compared to two seasons for the Thundercats.

As far as the Silverhawks, most people probably

aren't familiar with how it ends, because if

you didn't remember it from when you were a kid,

you have to own the second volume on the DVD

in order to see that. It's a fucking air show.

No, it's not. Yes, it is. It starts off, they're

at an air show, and then Monstar comes in with

a regular Villain of the Week plot. No, it's

not. And you haven't seen the episode, so stop

talking. Oh! I, on the other hand... who actually

watched the episode recently can actually tell

you what it is. It does start off with like an

Independence Day type air show, but it's not

a villain of the week type of thing. They did,

I will give them credit because part of them

must have at least, I know the writing didn't

write this as a end of the series type episode,

but I get the feeling that they knew that there

was a possibility that this was the last episode.

So although it does not have the end, like Thundercats

does, where they knew it was coming to an end

and they actually write an ending episode, a

finale. They do do some things in Silverhawks.

They bring in everybody, first of all. They have

all of the Silverhawks, all of the new additions.

They bring in all of the bad guys. They bring

in Seymour with the taxi cab. I mean, they bring

in everybody. And the plot basically is that

Molecular has has turned himself into the Mirage

and they don't know that. So the air show goes

haywire when he takes off into Outers, you know,

the the nether reaches with the original team

and then the new team is left one -on -one and

they pair off against each one of the bad guys

So it does give a lot of homages to all of the

individual characters as far as they each get

some time in battle they each get Some moments

and then they all end up back at hawk haven and

it shows all of this The only time ever in the

whole series where they show all of the silver

hawks together. So I will give them credit for

at least including everybody and giving everybody

some air time. But they did not have the advantage

like Thundercats did of knowing the series was

coming to an end, whereas Thundercats got to

write a finale episode where, you know, everything

turns out to be golden and everything, you know.

How does Wikipedia or something wrote it off

as like, everything turns out all right and peace

and calm turns over all the world? It's basically

for Silverhawks, It was basically that... It

says it starts off at a regular air show and

then Monstar comes in and screws everything up.

We're not talking about Silverhawks, I just told

you the whole thing about Silverhawks. Right,

exactly. I actually watched the episode. Anyway.

I'm sorry, I keep saying two seasons for Silverhawks.

Technically it was four seasons actually. I know

there's debate on this. I know there's debate

on this because there's two seasons as far as

the DVDs or releases are go, but if you go by

years, they were four years or different years

and each one started season two, three and four

each started with a five episode mini series.

So technically if you want to go by broadcasting,

it was four seasons, but everybody else considers

it two seasons. So we'll let the debate on that

go somewhere else. Yeah. uh... basically the

finale for thundercats is that's panthro is finally

figured out how to access the key you know decipher

studies the key of omens and he enters the code

open the lock and suddenly the guardian of omens

is summoned and then he's left to go out and

find out all these things within twenty four

hours and and and and meet back uh... he did

best of them up here it's kinda like a key to

better vector sigma storyline but at least it

was a legitimate ending but you know i i think

when it comes down to it and i i don't know for

sure but i think i think like kevin said i think

that they had an idea that it might be the last

one i see it looking like this okay guys right

this episode um we might get picked up for another

season but we might not so You know if we don't

kind of work some stuff in there where this could

be the last one But if it's not you know work

it so it you know it could not necessarily be

a last episode That's how I look at the ending

for the the silver hawks and and I think it's

very unjust and I think when you when you I don't

think you can give a proper comparison between

the two because Thundercats was ended. There's

no question about it. I mean it was a finale.

That's that's just how it was Silverhawks was,

you know Well, it might be it might be the end

but it might not be that I mean you could look

at it now, you know through the you know, the

the looking glass and in hindsight you can see

that, you know, yeah Okay, it could work as a

last episode but you know when you're a kid and

you're watching it You have no idea that it's

gonna be the very last episode, right? You know,

and that's just basically a a shitty NBC pile

as far Pilot as far as its finale because they

canceled it or it got a good end in it. Unfortunately,

there's very few cartoons Out there that get

a proper ending true. Unfortunately But thundercats

did so just to get it out of the way my votes

for thundercats on this one Yeah, I do have to

give it the thundercats with with with the pretext

that I don't think we're comparing two equal

things. That's fair. Thundercats, you're home.

So is it safe to say everybody's voters from

Thundercats and we move on? Yeah. Yes. All right.

Tim, what do you got to say? The next category

was. The ending PSA is because, hey, it's not

an 80s show unless it has an ending public service

announcement of some sort. So we have the moral

lesson that was put into the Thundercats versus

the science lesson that was put into the Silverhawks.

I am going to let Paul... I'm going to shock

people here. OK, but I'm going to let Paul talk

first here. Well, hold on before he goes into

a long tangent. I'm just going to get this out

of the way right now, and I'm going to shock

people right now. I got my moral lessons from

He -Man, so I choose the science quiz because,

as I said earlier... about two hours ago. It

actually helped me taking tests in school as

far as learning something. You got smart. Exactly.

I choose Silverhawks as far as the PSAs. Okay,

Paul, go ahead with your long -winded answers.

Long -winded answers? That's harsh. That's right.

He called you a candy -ass in secret. That's

what he said. I'm going to go with the science

quiz simply because it... It it involved kids.

I mean there's a moral lesson and you know, you

can learn it. Okay, that's fine I mean, I mean

you okay, so you watch it There's the moral lesson

and then they explain it to you and then yours

as your kid you okay I get it but at least with

you know the science quiz it involved you and

you got the pic and If you were wrong, you know,

I thought shit. I'm wrong, you know, or you know,

I mean It involved you. It was interactive. So

I'm definitely going science quiz. To me, what

it comes down to is there's nothing wrong with

the moral lessons from Thundercats. And I think

they did a fine job with them. But to me, Silverhawks

did it different than anybody else in the 80s

did. Everybody did the moral lesson. You know,

G .I. Joe, Human, Transformers, Thundercats.

And to me, I give credit for Silverhawks coming

up with a different way to do something at the

end of the show. So, yeah, I'm going Silverhawks

too, Tim. Yeah, a lot of those shows did those

moral lessons, but Silverhawks are sorry Thundercats

Did it a little differently it usually fit in

with the show in GI Joe or he man there be The

end of the show would wrap up before You know

the last commercial break then they would come

back and have this very short segment that may

have something to do with the show or maybe it

wouldn't I remember he man showing up in one

episode and you know came in to the Yeah, I will

credit because they actually had a psychologist

online that they would give the first draft of

the story and then the Child psychology guy would

come in and then they would adjust Parts so that

the moral actually fit into the episode. So that

was a good thing. Yeah, I mean they They promoted

this show that way to saying we're gonna teach

kids morals in the show. So But the science quizzes

were a cool way to deviate from that, to do something

different, but yet still have a message for kids.

It was fun to watch those shows and then try

to guess the correct answers. I think every kid

played along with that. I even enjoyed watching

them as an adult again, trying to see if I could

get the right answers. It's too bad they didn't

get to do what they originally were planning

to do because it was originally going to be like

a call -in or mail -in contest that you could

Participate in as far as with your right answers

if you called in and got the right answer You

can get like a prize or whatever, but they couldn't

work it out logistically Yeah, and that would

have been really cool, so I think they had a

great idea with this I think it worked out really

well fit in with the show So yeah, I'm gonna

vote for Silverhawks on this one Steve I I'm

going to go with Silverhawks on that because

I just remember watching a lot of shows and having

the same kind of upbringing watching them. Yeah.

As far as the learning at the end. A clean sweep

for the Silverhawks for once. One thing that

I will say quickly, I was just, I don't know

why this just kind of popped in my mind, but

not to create some kind of a controversy, but

I don't. I think it's necessarily the responsibility

of cartoon creators to teach morals to kids.

I think that should come from the parents. But

in the 80s, they had to. Oh, no, you're absolutely

right. But you know, I mean, there's, you know,

they're sticking, you know, the morals down here,

down your throat. And this is the way that it

is. And for the most part, I mean, I agree with

all the morals that they're saying, but I think

that that really should come from the parents.

Yeah. I would really hope that if the parents

were watching these with their kids, that they

could elaborate more on the morals that they

just watched in the cartoon. So that's all I

was gonna say. And you're right. I mean, they

did kind of shove the morals down people's throats,

but they did that because... It's learning. Well,

it was... Well, that, but they did, they had

to do that because of the fact that at the time...

You know, everyone talks about the ratings boards

now and TV ratings at the time. All those action

cartoons would not have been on TV without those.

Well, it would have been the 70s and everything

would have gotten banned. I mean, you got all

these cartoons where there's, you know, good

versus evil and there's a lot of violence and

stuff. And then at the end of it, you can learn

what that violence, you know, really meant. Why

are the good guys fighting these bad guys? And

I agree with everything that they're saying,

but I just. I just wanted to make a little side

doing that kind of stuff with their kids. In

an ideal situation. Amen. Unlike the parents

of today. Which hopefully, yeah, we'd almost

have to have these today because otherwise where

are they going to learn their morals from? That's

friggin' true. Our next category, although technically

not a part of the rest of it because this is

supposed to just be comparing the cartoons, but

part of everybody's experience as a kid watching

these cartoons, especially in the 80s obviously

since that's what we all get yelled at for, oh

it's just a... 30 -minute commercial bullshit

nonsense. Anyway, is the action figure, so don't

get me started on that soapbox, but we'll just

specifically look at the action figures comparatively,

the Thundercats and the Silverhawks. Thundercats

were much larger in scale, a little less articulation

on the Thundercats side, but bigger weapons,

bigger characters, whereas the Silverhawks were

a little bit smaller scale. Bigger than GI Joe.

I don't even think the articulation was all that

different. I think they are tickle articulation

was almost identical between the two Um, I mean

super Hawks have like elbows or knees or anything.

I think Monestar had knees. Oh, that's true.

That is true. Yeah, I'm knocking all of my toys

over. Um, I wanted it as far as comparison goes

like the the silver size why silver Hawks are

close to like closer to like the turtle size

yeah um kind of that five six inch type uh figure

i want to say the the thundercats are huge yeah

they are yeah they're more so like five inch

six inch yeah um but good good gracious i mean

i personally only have experience with the ones

that i own i own lino and mumroff for the thundercats

i own quicksilver and moanstar and uh copper

kid and hot wing for the silver hawks and i used

to have bluegrass i don't know what happened

to them um And the Silverhawks all have like

cloth wings. Well, I shouldn't say that some

of them have cloth wings and another line had

the actual like, I want to say like, I didn't

own any of these, but they were almost like plasticky

where you could hit their knees and they would

like pop open. Yeah. So there was some cloth.

There was some place they all came with a bird

of some sort that could perch on their arm or

that had some type of action. No weapons, so

to speak, whereas the Thundercats had more weapon

accessories, whereas the Silverhawks just had

their birds. I'll let you guys talk first Tim.

Why don't you talk about the toys between the

two lines? Okay. Well, this will be brief because

I didn't have very many of the toys I had Lionel

and my brother had mum rah and I had no silver

hawks But I wanted to have a silver hawk because

I thought they were pretty cool. You know seeing

the commercial they would I can remember what

it was they did what they like, you know pressed

her legs together Whatever it was to get their

wings to pop out. But yeah, that was that was

pretty cool And they were shiny so and most are

also had the the ability like like Paul was saying

you You could open his chest and put one of his

heads in his chest and his brings other head

out So you could have either version of moon

star whereas and unfortunately back then mum,

right? You only got one version whereas nowadays

obviously you can get both but yeah, sorry didn't

mean to interject but yeah, no, no problem But

yeah, the Thundercats toys You know from having

Lionel my brother have a mum raw They were this

hard material, like it's hard plastic, and I

expected something more along the lines of what

He -Man toys were made of. That's what I wanted.

They just looked awkward. I wanted something

that looked like a He -Man figure with the musculature

and the posable -ness of the legs and the arms,

and the Thundercats were just kind of stiff.

They didn't really move very much. The Sword

of Omens that came with Lion -O was like rubber,

and so it was never straight. It was always bent

because he always put it someplace where it wouldn't

lay straight. So I, you know, as I said, I didn't

have any Silver Hawks. I was kind of disappointed

with the Thundercats toys. I didn't have the

Thunder Tank or the Cat Slayer, unfortunately.

Those look pretty cool. There was a Cat Slayer

toy, right? I thought there was. But yeah, the

Thunder tank would have been awesome to have

even then the one for the new series looks really

cool so I'm gonna have to try to grab that but

I It's hard for me to vote because like I said,

I didn't have any of the silver Hawks. I Will

agree though with what you're saying about the

Thunder the cats That's what struck me when I

because I didn't own them as a kid I got the

I owned all my silver rocks as a kid I got the

line on mumra later on and I was not expecting

them to look like they did And I got them and

I'm like, first of all, they're huge. And second

of all, they're so stiff. And the coloring even

is a little bit weird. I will say that both lines

did great jobs on the likeness of the faces to

the cartoon. All of the faces of both the Silverhawks

and Thundercats, to me, look like the cartoon

faces, which is something that some toy lines

cannot figure out. But yeah, to me, it's the

stiffness. Look at you, Ghostbusters. It's the

stiffness and the size of the Thundercats. It

puts me off a little, whereas the Silverhawks

all did something. And that's always something

that's why I like Transformers as a kid. I like

toys that actually do something, and the Silverhawks

had to push the legs into the wings, pop out.

The Hawks did stuff. So I'm leaning towards Silverhawks

on this one. I think the only thing the Thundercats

toys did, I seem to recall that Lion -O and Mum

-Raw's eyes lit up somehow. Yeah, they were key

versions. You put a little key flashlight thing

in the back of them and their eyes would light

up. Yeah, okay. I actually have to go with Silverhawks

on this one. I did love all the Thundercats toys.

I had Panthero, Liono, Tigra, and Mumrah. I wanted

Slithe, Monkey, and Jackal Man. I never had those.

There was never a Jaga figure, was there? Yes,

there was I yes there was I know there was because

I have pictures of it And I went through a whole

friggin very well toy cast episode 85 Yeah, so

yes, there was a jogger figure I also had Grun.

I loved having Grun. I thought Grun was a really

cool toy Yes, the Thundercats figures are really

stiff. Yes, the Sword of Omens was a piece of

shit. It just was. I, as a kid, I always wanted

to just reach into the television and just take

the actual sword out. The 2011 sword is a piece

of shit too, by the way. Yeah, it is. The only

Sword of Omens that's any good is with the 2010

San Diego Comic Con Lionel. Yeah, that was actually

have the other the other sword though that you

can buy separately That's not doesn't go with

any of the figures in the 2011 line like a separate

sword that you can actually hold in your hand

Yeah, the roleplay sword. Yeah, the roleplay

sword sucks, too I think it's cool. It only goes

up twice. So it doesn't go to the third sword

sucks I will say that I had the role playing

it has three extensions I Oh, there's one that

has two and there's one that has three. I'm sorry.

Right. Yeah, someone gave me that one for as

a gift for Christmas. And yeah, it has three

extensions. I'm wearing the Thundercat cloth

from the 80s. I am. Well, we talk about Kevin's

private role playing issues there. I had to have

my mom buy me at some point as a kid, three different

blue grasses, because I always would lose bluegrass.

I lost him. I don't know where he is. Yeah, I

could never find him Copper kid. I remember I

would always have my mom run extremely hot scalding

bat bath water And I would just scald the hell

out of that figure. Oh You might want to see

a doctor about this. No, he's like die Die think

of copper kid as universe Starscream Paul, you

know what you did to universe Starscream raped

it Pretty much. Yeah, I loved the Quicksilver

figure. I loved the Steel Will and Steelheart

figures. So I get to give it to Silverhawks and

the toys. I wish I could have got some of the

bad guys besides Moonstar because they look cool

in the picture even though Buzzsaw is the wrong

color. But I wish I could have had Molecular.

He looks like he's green in the picture. He is

green. Yeah, I got the cartoon is gold. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay Okay, whoa, so in

the cartoon he was gold and the toy he was green.

Maybe it was fake gold Or maybe we have a frenzy

and oh Don't even um Steve, what do you think

of the the two toys by looking at the pictures

there and everything? um by looking at the toys

I'd have to I'd have to go with Probably Silverhawks.

It looks like they've got more articulation to

them and more. More probably posability to them.

One that has more articulation than any of the

Thundercats is Monstar. Yeah, and it's not necessarily

the articulation on the Silverhawks. It's just

that they're not so stiff. Stargazer has knee

joints too. Yeah, and it's just that they're

not so stiff. Even they might not have like a

lot more articulation, but they're just not so

stiff. Their arms move more freely up and down.

I don't know, it's just something about him that...

Didn't the Thundercat... Now, see, I haven't

had a Thundercat toy in about 28 years. So, couldn't

you also like squeeze the legs together and their

arms to move up and down? The Thundercats? Yeah,

or like, or I'm thinking like with Lionel, couldn't

you, or wasn't there like a Mexican one? Or his

like, one arm would go up? Yeah. Now, that's

the only thing I really remember, because I remember

having... Lion oh, and I remember having pan

throw that's all I remember having but The one

problem that I had with with the Silverhawks,

and I mean I love the Silverhawk toys I picked

the Silverhawk, but The the chrome on them you

couldn't really play with those things without

that chrome coming off like Mean so so much that

went like not well a couple years ago I I went

and I wanted to buy some of them and I bought

I bought a copper kid. I got a steel will Who

else do I have I got stargazer? I got mum raw

molecular and Oh God, there's another one that

I have Oh moon striker, I have a moon striker

um in Every single one of them the biggest problem

with it as an adult collector is I want them

to be perfect And the chrome to be perfect on

them if unless you buy these things Like mint

in package still you are not gonna find one that

has like perfect chrome And if you do you're

gonna pay almost more than one that you would

buy if it was in box or in package so That was

always a huge problem that I had with them. I

loved them. I loved the way they looked. I loved

the whole wing gimmick, everything. They had

the flashiest look on the toy shelf. Yeah. I

just hated the fact that if you cooked your mum

raw and punched Quicksilver in the face, well,

you're going to end up chipping off some of the

chrome. And that's the other thing, like all

the flesh tones. Like, um, at least, at least

on, like, for example, because I don't have Quicksilver,

um, but like, uh, Steel Will, his arm, like,

the painted arm that looks like flesh is actually

painted. I mean, underneath it is chrome. So

it's, you know, it's chrome and then you paint

over that. It's really ridiculous. It is. But

I digress. And Buzzsaw's really fun because you

take his mouth and you go up and down and you

go... and his little thing spin. Buzz saws on

his shoulders. You like lift his head and there's

like a little gear. You lift it up and then they

spin and then you bring it down and they spin.

It's real cool. Alright, so moving on to our

final category. We finally got to... Category

number 20, which is taking all of this into consideration

and you probably can predict most of our votes

But taking everything in it taking everything

into consideration the characters the story is

the plots the vehicles the environment everything

Overall show who gets your vote as the better

overall show Mike Thundercats I can go back and

I can watch varying episode sagas of the Thundercats

cartoon more so than I can watch Villain of the

Week from Silverhawks. For me, I love both of

them and I never wanted it, you know, during

our Tooncast debate I didn't want it to make

it seem like I loved Silverhawks way more than

Thundercats or anything like that. I love them

both. I love them both, but for me there's two

things. Number one, I'm just a bigger sci -fi

and space fan and number two, in And I know you

guys have had different opinions about this,

but in watching both of these as a year old person,

I did not get as tired watching the Silverhawks

episodes. When I was getting through all of the

100 and whatever Thundercats episodes, it was

almost painful to have to continue watching them

at one point. And then they introduced some new

characters and it got a little bit better and

then some of that got stagnant Whereas I'd watched

literally 32 episodes of Silverhawks in two days

without even flinching. I was never tired of

it I never was bored with it Let me ask you a

question though. Were you bored when you were

watching the first 32 episodes of Thundercats?

Yes. Oh, okay. All right As long as you're not

saying that you got bored with it when you were

in like season 2 of Thundercats No, no, no, I'm

saying like almost it was painful to have to

watch seven at a time Like that was because I

was I would watch them in like five or six or

seven at a time And it was much harder to get

through five or six or seven at a time of Thundercats

than it was of Silverhawks I don't know what

it was about it. I love both shows. I absolutely

love both shows I think they're both great, but

space and sci -fi usually gets the edge for me

So my vote is for Silverhawks as an overall show

Tim Yeah, I'm going back to thundercats again

for me it's it's similar to what Mike said it's

just a team of crime fighters with the Silverhawks

and It's not a bad show, you know like you Kevin.

I like both shows I just like thundercats a lot

more just having those different settings. I

like the the mix of You know fantasy sword and

sorcery and the technology It just For me, it

made for richer stories. I like the Thundercats.

I enjoyed watching those. I wanted to be a Thundercat.

You know, that's kind of how it felt like. I

wanted to be there with them exploring the world.

They were just a really cool team. And again,

I just felt like the Silverhawks were kind of

boring. I'd rather not spend time with them.

I'd be on the villain side. It's all right to

be a villain fan. Paul, overall show. I really

like, and I'm gonna steal Tim's words here, that

as a kid, I wanted to be a Silverhawk. I thought,

I mean, kinda like what you were saying, Kevin,

that the whole space and sci -fi thing, that

was always something I really, really enjoyed.

And I just, I remember as a kid, there was a

couple different things that I would do when

I would go out into the playground. I would always

pretend I was Optimus Prime, and I would always

pretend like I was transforming into a truck.

or I was a silverhawk running around with my

arms out pretending like I could fly. So for

me, I have to go silverhawks. And that being

said, Mike, just so you know, Steelheart is hotter

than Chitara. Drew that. Carry on. No, no, no,

no, no. You already said there's no rebuttal.

Steve, based on everything you knew coming in

and all the discussions we've had so far and

kind of what you've maybe learned along the way,

overall, which would you say was a better show

in your opinion? You can get that $20 back. I'm

gonna have to go with thundercats overall Listen

to him cry Next we're gonna hear flatulence,

but I'm actually proud of myself. I haven't I

haven't had to go Okay, yeah Kevin what about

you? I already said You know, based on the sci

-fi and the space aspects, I have to go with

Silverhawks as the overall. So talk amongst yourselves

while I tally up the vote. We're gonna go to

a commercial break, and then you can tally up

the vote and we'll come back with the final voting

results, and then we'll be done. We'll be back

after these messages. Hi, this is John Delancey

and you are listening to the GeekCast Radio Network.

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Hey, I'm Gary. I'm Greg. I'm Chuck. And I'm Justin.

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today. Can I say something about Transformers?

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Tooncast is dedicated to the cartoons we grew

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And now back to Thundercats. So, you know, you

have just heard, I think, about four hours of

discussion on these two things, Thundercats and

Silverhawks. We've broken it down. We've got

20 different categories. We've made our votes.

The tallies have been cast and the voting has

been counted up and there's no recounts. Remember,

there's 20 categories. And after the tallies

have been counted up, the final vote is, drum

roll, please. The Thundercats and the Silver

Ox, each getting ten categories. What? What?

A draw? A total draw after all this? You brought

in too many people. But, as - as - This fuckin'

blows! No, no, hold on guys, because not only

did I keep track of the categories, I did keep

track of individual votes. Ooh! So. Although

the categories were 10 for Thundercats and 10

for Silverhawks when we break it down to the

there was 20 categories and there was five of

us So there was 100 individual votes out of the

100 individual votes Thundercats had 55 Silverhawks

had 45 Thundercats wins so in a tiebreaker in

a tiebreaker We will give the decision in this

G sarin wars to thundercats oh man i feel like

i've been shot at and missed and shit at and

hit barely in the first ever tie and hopefully

we don't have too many more but yeah 10 10 but

55 45 in the tiebreaker sudden death whatever

you want to call it so final thoughts mike thundercats

wins larry kenny was right larry kit don't even

get me started on that The only reason why he

likes Thundercats more is because he's got more

of a role with Thundercats than Silverhawk. And

it still lasted. No, as I've already said...

I'm going to shank the hell out of you. Shut

up! As a quick final thought for me, Thundercats

is a cartoon I can go back to. Between Thundercats

and Silverhawks, both of those Tooncast classic

episodes... I watched all 130 episodes of Thundercats

within one week's time. Same thing with Silverhawks.

I watched all 65 episodes in one week's time.

And I can watch Thundercats episodes more than

I can Silverhawks. So what about you, Tim? I

can watch all 65 episodes of Silverhawks when

it wasn't on DVD yet. Just asking. You know what

I mean. Okay. Anyways, we've already given our

final votes. This is just final thoughts. Final

thoughts, Tim. I feel similarly to Mike. I can

still watch Thundercats and enjoy it. I tire

of Silverhawks after a while. But if you like

Silverhawks and that's your favorite, you're

not wrong. And if you like Thundercats and that's

your favorite, you're not wrong either. Hopefully

you enjoyed us dissecting it. Yeah, I think it

was fun. From California, you're always wrong.

Do you know who feels bad in all of this? I'm

gonna eat my sort of omens and I'm gonna shank

you, Mike. I'm gonna take a sort of omens and

shove it up your ass and rotate it. So even though

there are a lot of similarities with the voice

cast a lot of the same writers What you know

people behind the scenes working on the shows?

they're still very different shows and You know,

you can enjoy one and maybe not enjoy the other

or maybe enjoy one more than the other. That's

fine You know, we've seen a resurgence of thundercats

with the new cartoon I think they've done a good

job with it and i'm interested to see if they

do a revival of silver hawks and to see What

they will retain from the old series or what

they will get rid of? Because I think there are

a lot of things and so in thundercats that are

sort of this, you know timeless You know just

timeless attributes to some storytelling which

like you said, you know, it's similar to transformers

It's similar to you know other stories that we've

seen and silver hoxes It's you know somewhat

different than that and then you've got these,

you know, really strange villains and odd characters

and monsters, you know This very kick -ass toys

out of the silver Yeah, they were pretty cool

looking toys. So I mean they could make today

if they redid a revival They'd have some cool

classic versions. Yeah Paul, go ahead, final

thoughts. You know, I like what Tim said that,

you know, when it comes down to it, there's no

losers in this. There really, really isn't. I

mean, I think the voting kind of shows that both

of these were very solid shows in their own right.

And you can like one, you can like the other.

It doesn't really matter. I mean, they're both

good storytelling agents. And as kids, we were

privileged and lucky to have gotten those because

a lot of the crap that comes out now is crap.

And you don't get shows like Thundercats. I mean,

even the new Thundercats now is while it's similar,

in my opinion, it's radically different than

the original Thundercats. And I love I love what

they're doing with it in terms of the story.

But, you know, kids that watch it nowadays. They

have a different perspective of what the Thundercats

were when we were kids. So I would absolutely

love to see a revival of a Silverhawks series.

That would be... I mean, the toys would be phenomenal.

Like I said, as soon as I bought the new 2011

Thundercat Thundertank, I wanted to go and buy

a Mirage again. And it's absolutely cool. I mean,

like I said, I think we're... all very fortunate

to have gotten to watch these and kids nowadays

probably wouldn't appreciate it the same they'd

go back and watch and it would it would definitely

not they wouldn't even be having this discussion

with us because you know uh i i'm gonna use uh

an analogy i just watched a south park episode

where everything that we like that our parents

didn't i mean they they heard it as shit Everything

that we listen to now in terms of music that

young kids listen to we think what they listen

to sounds like shit So everything that we watched

kids nowadays would probably say looks like shit

So that's it Steve final thoughts Um, it was

interesting This whole wars between the two shows

I can't say I'm not surprised that they were

so close. But yeah, I also have to agree with

Paul that I doubt that modern era people would

have their appreciation that we do for these

type of shows. The one people I feel bad for

in all of this are the tiger sharks. Poor tiger

sharks. Never getting talked about. But no, I

enjoyed it. I did not expect it to be this close.

I expected, you know, Thundercats to come away

pretty easily. And I am glad that in three categories,

Mike did vote for Silverhawks. So that was impressive.

Yeah, I can be objective, god damn it. After

we rigged it. Anyway. You still picked Snarf,

though, didn't you? No, I picked up the kid.

I picked the blaster of two evils. Thank you

very much. Oh, he picked the villains. Yes. Anyways.

Take it away, Mike. All right. So we hope you

enjoyed this episode of GCR and Wars forever,

how long as it is. I wish you'll join us next

time when we'll be arguing about something else.

For now, I am TFG1 Mike with To Master Tim. I

am Paul the Optobotamus. And I am Optimus Solo.

And if you have any other ideas for future debates

and battles, we have some, but you could always

comment and leave us them. My name is Steve Megatron.

Phillips. We'll see you next time when we'll

constantly be fighting about something else.

I bet the next battle is Barbie vs. Friendship

is Magic. Oh shit, what the hell kind of storm

have I started? So we'll see you next time, only

on GCRN Wars. Monster's headed for the casino,

and he's going to tear me and Poker Face apart!

Lady, you got more nerve than a bareback bronco

buster. What do you think, Skip? We've got to

do it, cowboy. That's what we're here for. Why

don't we fuck her first? She was right. I don't

like it. And I'm going to tear this place apart.

I'm in charge here. If you're gonna tear anything

apart, start with me, cocksucker! Sorry, commander.

Not only can he travel through time just like

me, but he's also a tracking bird, kind of a

space bloodhound. First, we give him something

hardware has touched, like this used prophylactic.

Get your nose out of my ass and do what I tell

you to! Where you got these mice down to, oh?

I should have known the territory didn't mean

us any harm when the Sword of Omens didn't obey

me. And anyway, it was just plain stupid to assume

it might be bad. Just what the fuck am I talking

about? It's when Wile E. Cat and Kid are pretending

to be the most helpful that they're dropping

their pens on the thing while I'm talking. Let's

find the mega condenser. I'm saying that too

fast. Let's find the mega condenser. Still going

too fast. What's wrong, Lion -O? Fuck, here it

is again. What's here again? That thing, that

mega thing. Want me to say it? Yes! I'm going

to put this one right between her pretty. That's

the line of the show right here. And keep your

foot off that blasted sumo flange. What the fuck

is a sumo flange? I have to do that again. Oh,

Lionel! We're not... What's the matter, Snark?

You got a cold? Motherfucker! You fucking dog!

Shut the fuck up! Get over here, bitch! Run out

the fucking plank, boys! Come here, motherfuckers.

Thunder! Thunder! Thunder! Thundercast! I'm going

too high! You've got to get back to the lair,

panthro, before those mutants do something drastic!

Come on, man, get yourself together. I want to

see your tits, my dear! Can't stand it! Going

to pass out!