Wonder Woman Review

Hey, this is Steve Blum and you are listening

to the Geekcast Radio Network. Hello and welcome

to episode 137 of the Cinema Geeks. I am one

of your Cinema Geeks optimists solo and joining

me for today's record is Hard Candy Mandy. Uh,

hey dudes. You're gonna make us sing the theme

song again? What? Oh, don't do it. And also,

Friendly Send. Hello? Hi. So we are one Cinema

Geek short. Dan is off trying to find his way

to Themyscira. But hey, three out of four is

not bad, so it's a pretty good average. So three

of us here to give you our take on... a recent

release. We're talking 2017's Wonder Woman today.

So before we kind of get into the nitty -gritty

about the film, I'm going to get your initial

reactions to this film directed by Patty Jenkins,

screenplay by Alan Heinberg, and starring Gal

Gadot, Chris Pine, Robin Wright, Danny Houston,

Connie Nielsen and a bunch of other people just

came out here recently and it is doing crazy

good at the box office made over a hundred million

in its opening weekend and has a 92 % last I

checked on Rotten Tomatoes. So it's successful

at both the box office and Rotten Tomatoes early

on. Is that warranted or not? What's your initial

reaction to Wonder Woman, Matt? Oh man, like

I think people are going bonkers. Like I've heard

people saying they like they're crying in the

theater and like if it's a representation thing

like awesome if it's like a you think the movies

that good Like I don't know that there's been

a movie so good that I've just been crying in

theaters Like that's insane to me So you think

it's good but not as good as others are saying

possibly Oh, for sure. Amanda, agree or disagree?

I mean, I had some tear up moments, but I don't

think it was because I'm like, this is so good,

I just need to freaking cry about it. Is that

what you're saying people are doing? Because

that's nuts. I think people are doing it for

multiple reasons. But I think, from what I've

heard, it's more of the representation angle

of having that moment where... Well, we can get

into some of the scenes specifically, but I think

there's one specific scene that's had the biggest

effect. So you're... fan but not Stargrave being

mad about it. I'm not losing my shit over it,

but it was a really good freaking movie and it

solidified the character for me. In Batman vs

Superman, I didn't believe Gal Gadot as Wonder

Woman. I didn't, I was like she doesn't even

freaking look like Wonder Woman, also she's just

coming in and she's just like super stronger

than everybody, but like I don't believe it and

with this it she solidified Wonder Woman as a

character for me and her performance in that.

Think was super great and we're already obviously

on air disagreeing about Her performance or that

character in Batman versus Superman I think when

all four of us talked we all had kind of different

opinions on how successful she was I I did like

her I thought she was one of the highlights in

Batman versus Superman one of the few highlights

and I think That continued on with this film.

I think it was a it is a successful film I think

especially when you go into it with I it had

some good things going for, first of all, because

it's not like some of these other franchises

where you're going in with a lot of hype. I don't

think too many people were going into Wonder

Woman expecting a great movie. I think people

went into Wonder Woman hoping it wasn't a train

wreck. So the expectation bar could not have

been... that high. If people aren't expecting

much, sometimes that might magnify their enjoyment

with the film. But I think it was a good film.

I think it's easily for me the best of this DC

extended, whatever you want to call it, cinematic

universe that's happened. post Dark Knight trilogy,

so I definitely prefer it over Man of Steel,

Batman v Superman, or Suicide Squad, so I think

it's probably leagues above those films. But

I'm like you guys, I'm not ready to necessarily

crown it with any type of award or achievement

necessarily quite yet, but let's get into it

a little bit further and kind of see where we

all, what we liked and what we didn't like about

it. So going back to you, Matt, what did you

find in favor? of Wonder Woman, what were the

positives? Well, I mean, like you said, I think

it's better than almost anything DC's put out.

Like, it just, I could follow it. Like, there

are moments in Suicide Squad where I'm like,

I don't know what purpose that scene served at

all. Like, this one followed the beats of a movie

and it felt like I was watching a coherent cinematic

experience, which is very important. Like, I...

I think Gal Gadot is amazing. I loved her in

Batman v Superman, and I think she did even better

here where she was allowed to be center stage.

I liked that there was this intrigue that I didn't

expect. They talk about how there's a weirdness

to the timeline. that gets explained by the end

where it's like wait when did these events happen

and when did those events happen and how did

this work like and at one point it's like you're

the only child on this island and it's like that's

a weird interesting thing and so i loved how

they created the character and built her up and

explained how she thinks and why she thinks that

way and then unleashed her into our world and

was like let's see what that happens like I really

enjoyed just how they told the story and that

they told the story without just vomiting things

on the screen. Don't you think, though, with

what they were able to do with this film, as

far as setting up a character or providing an

origin story, that they would have benefited

from just doing... I know it's maybe not original

or maybe not a unique way to take it, but don't

you think they would have benefited from doing

what Marvel did and doing this multiple times

with these characters before? we got to a Batman

v Superman or a Justice League or different things

like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, hey, it was almost

like everything they had done was bad and failed.

And so they're like, well, let's just try being

Marvel for one movie. And it's like, oh, look,

it's our most successful and best written movie.

But we're going back to our old shitty model.

Amanda, what do you think? Do you think this

would have been better? See this and maybe the

Aquaman movie and just a solo Batman movie before

we got all these people together later on this

year I think that I did like in Batman versus

Superman how we got little glimpses of this I

think If they would have come out with Batman

vs Superman first and then came out with each

one of these individual films before they brought

it back for Justice League, I think that would

have been beneficial because that Batman vs Superman

movie, those glimpses that you get to the other

characters really hype you up. To see those other

characters. So I think it would have been cool

to see these little glimpses and then get each

one of these Original or not original these origin

stories or what -have -you these back stories

for each of them and then give us the Justice

League Now we're gonna be like backtracking But

I think maybe the Justice League will get us

excited for the other characters solo films It

just seems like such a herky -jerky way to go

about things though. Like we get the Man of Steel

and then we're going to do a team up movie that

features so many different characters like Batman

versus Superman did. Now we're going to get a

solo Wonder Woman film. And then we're going

to put them all together with Justice League.

And then we're going to go back to solo and give

you Aquaman. Like it just seems like a weird,

like who is in these rooms that's mapping this

out that says this is a good directional course

to take. So, I don't know. I think it's weird

how they can continue to keep going back and

forth and they can't seem to make up their mind.

But Amanda, you had mentioned that you weren't

necessarily on board with Wonder Woman in Batman

v Superman and that this film helped you get

on board with that character. What was it about

this film that made you a believer of Gal Gadot's

Wonder Woman? I don't think the T is pronounced.

It is. It is. Are you serious? Oh man. No, because

every podcast I listened to this week was pronounced

in a different So I went for sure and she's even

on like in an interview saying even though everybody

says good dough It's good. Don't That's weird

and I don't like it. But back to the question,

what made you a believer of her character or

her portrayal as Wonder Woman or just the writing

of the character? I think just seeing her backstory,

seeing her upbringing really benefited believing

in her character and believing in her beliefs

as her character. And I think it made a lot more

sense, like her abilities made much more sense

after finding out the truth behind her origin.

I'm not sure if that's the case in the comic

like her true origin. Let me real quick bounce

Let me let Matt bounce off that for a second.

I don't know Matt how much you're Familiar with

that character and the comic book origin, but

if I'm not mistaken They've changed some things

as far as her ability or her weapons that she

has right at the beginning. Is that correct?

It depends on which incarnation of Wonder Woman.

This is true to one of the better versions of

Wonder Woman, but not true to one of the newer

ones, I don't think. The clay, the Zeus, that

is classic. That was what was true for years.

The outfit is obviously classic. She's always

had, from the beginning, had the whip. The lasso.

The braces and the whip. Yeah, but not the sword,

correct? Well, see, she's an Amazon warrior,

so, like, she oftentimes will find herself using

an axe or a sword or anything. It maybe isn't

as big of a thing as, like, you know, you might

have one story arc where it's a common thing,

but, like, I guess, no, there isn't, like, this

one sword that she uses for an entire origin

story like there is in this. But it's not beyond

the character. It's not, like, jumping the shark

here. Okay. So Amanda, with that being said,

continue on your thoughts as far as why it worked

for you this time. I mean, not just her origin,

like with the Amazons, but with the secret origin

that we find out in the film. I think that made

a lot more sense to where her abilities came

from. And I think that that just made me believe

that she had the ability to, you know... Kick

these monsters in the face and be able to bounce

back and have this strength I really like that

and I liked the showcasing of her abilities and

the scene where you know, and when they're no

man's land and you know, she's trying to rescue

the town and the really cool showcasing of her

abilities and her use of her weapons is super

awesome. So I think that seeing all of that put

together her origin her upbringing and Her abilities

being more showcased Made me able to truly vest

in her character and her performance as that

character Speaking of her character and getting

into a little a few more angles on that I want

to get your guys take on something that I've

heard various varying Opinions as far as the

degree that people think it worked or not. So

obviously We have this set up where we're introduced

to her on the island once we kind of flash back

to that point that we see Themyscira, we see

her origin on the island, et cetera. But once

we get past that opening segment, we're kind

of introduced into this whole fish out of water

elements and things that go throughout the rest

of the movie as far as her blending into the

real world, being exposed to the world outside

of her island bubble, dealing with the interactions

that she has with Chris Pine and his band of

merry men and secretary etc so how did the fish

out of water aspects work for you guys because

sometimes some people i've heard say that they

thought it went a little bit too far tried to

do it a few too many times as far as hitting

different jokes or different elements of that

other people seem to not have a problem with

it at all and seem to think that it that it worked

well and kind of adding a lighter side to a dc

film that we don't always get light sides to

recently so matt how did the fish out of water

aspect work for you as far as how they executed

it here On one hand I freaking loved it and on

the other hand I hated it like Now here's the

thing. So the whole time anytime there was one

of these first out of water moments I'm watching

it and I'm going like Do not make this a character

that looks dumb like that is not what you want

That is not what your viewers want like I was

very worried because like sometimes there's a

big difference between naive and dumb and sometimes

movies get that wrong and It just I don't know.

It's heartbreaking. It makes you hate the characters

like oh this character isn't just not versed

in the world They're just dumb Like, and if that's

the story you want to tell, it's the story you

want to tell, but that's not the story you want

to tell for a superhero movie and female empowerment

and, like, giving us this female protagonist

finally and being like, oh, but look, good lady,

she's dumb. Like, no, that's not what I want.

But I do think they hit it a couple of times

more than I'd like, but I think overall it worked

full. I think the first thing I said when we

got out of that movie was, hey, it's Captain

America, only with a slightly more naive main.

Character which is fine like they did a great

job with it. They wrote it really well, and I

didn't feel like they Compromise the character

or intelligence. I think they did do a good job

of letting it be Something light in the film,

but then letting her come back with some very

powerful arguments Against what was going on

so I think they countered the the cuteness of

seeing her experience London through her naivety

then Coming back encountering with her Having

a very powerful voice and opinion about what

was going on in the world at the time Yeah, I

agree. I don't think it was too much for me.

I thought it was just to the point I think it's

a lot of people were saying you can cut all those

scenes out. You don't need her I'm trying on

the dresses. You don't need her going to the

dance and different things like that but I I

think you absolutely do need some of that stuff

because otherwise it's You got to acknowledge

the fact that she has no idea what this world

is like in some way shape or form So there has

to be some Like you guys are saying naivete or

awkwardness or you know there has to be that

element has to be addressed or it would come

across very Artificial to me, so I don't necessarily

think there's a way to I mean like you said if

they were to play her too much in the dumb light

or I guess if they just like painstakingly hit

it again and again and again but I don't feel

like they did either of those things here. Another

thing that we see with Wonder Woman is obviously

the relationship that she has with Steve Trevor

played by Chris Pine and I think mostly I've

heard positive about that so how did you guys

feel as far as the relationship went with there?

There's a little bit of a... romance aspect to

it or side to the thing and there's also the

idea that one thing that I liked I think the

most was Chris Pine really was a supporting actor

here like he didn't try to one -up or he didn't

try to necessarily steal scenes or or do anything

he played the role that he was supposed to and

allowed her to shine I think where it was needed

So I appreciated that and I really liked the

relationship between the two. I thought they

had good chemistry together I thought they added

some good humor. I was kind of taken aback to

some of the jokes. They decided to throw in there

I guess I get it but Do you think that takes

away from the ability for this to be something

you're going to show your kids or something you're

going to introduce a younger audience to or do

you think that they kind of walk that line finally

enough where it's not necessarily crossing any

boundaries Amanda? I think the only one that

might be a little bit too close to inappropriate

would be the little grotto scene that happened

But I think that was it everything else that

was kind of alluded to was just that just alluded

to like when they when they're seen going into

the bedroom together because it seems like they

use a whole bunch of like they use their language

carefully and Do it in a way that a lot of younger

audiences wouldn't understand what they're actually

talking about but like you're saying they get

to the grotto scene and it's like we were so

careful before and now we're going to show him

standing there with his hands covering and that's

it so you think that's the only place where it

kind of crossed the boundary too yeah i think

everything else was super tasteful and i don't

think it it did have this love story element

but it wasn't There was no seducing or anything

like that. It was all very tasteful. What did

you think of just the Steve Trevor character

and the relationship between those two characters?

Did it work for you? I really liked their relationship.

I think it's a little bit predictable. It's the

first man she sees and she's going to fall in

love with him. But I think that he showed her

reason to fall in love with him. I think she

had good reason to. Was a great character on

his own and he did great in in being that that

supporting role but also having an identity in

the film and Making you really feel for what's

happening to him in the film Matt let you bounce

off of what we're saying here with Steve Trevor's

character and maybe some of the Boundaries that

we were talking about or just how those two characters

work together. What did you think of it? I do

like that he was one a fully fleshed out totally

believable character that could have starred

in his own movie But was not the star of this

movie like he definitely gave her the room to

act and and be the the spotlight I I think that

gratitude was the most awkward scene in that

whole movie is the it definitely felt kind of

it was weird because it felt kind of like it

was like hey this is a you know an action movie

but uh like we're gonna throw in this like weird

i don't know i really disliked it and it like

had that element of oh this is part of the naivety

like thing that i was really worried about and

like i think you could have removed this one

without hurting the movie but i do think they

chose their wording carefully and stuff it's

like sure he's naked but like She seems she's

more clinical in that scene and less like it's

the less sexual, less passion, more clinical.

And then it ends on a good joke at the end. And

I think that that wouldn't ruin it necessarily

for smaller, younger audiences. Oh, what else

would do we have the time in the boat, though?

I just remembered that when they're talking about

the pleasures of the flesh, that might be. crossing

it a little bit. That one might be a little bit

for younger kids, but I thought that was way

better written and more hilarious. That was more

intelligent and less almost slapsticky blue humor.

I forgot about that one too. What is it? PG or

PG -13? It's gotta be 13, right? I think 13 is

solid and PG is a little much. I would think

it would have to be PG -13. With all the war.

That said, you know what's an amazing, like an

amazing device for the writer is that freaking

lasso. Because at one point he's saying things

and I was like, how is anyone going to believe

anything anyone's saying in this movie? And then

they go, oh wait, it's Wonder Woman. I got that

lasso thing. Just at any point where it's like,

no, this is what needs to happen before the world

will die. It's like, really? And it's like, yeah,

let's wrap this thing around me. Yep, hey, let's

go. It moved the story along so well. I loved

it. Yeah, definitely a useful tool for them to

have. Before we get too far ahead into some of

the other elements, let's back up a little bit

and go back to that opening sequence. What did

you guys feel like as far as when we're only

dealing with the Amazons and we get to see her

mom and her... her people, I guess they're not

necessarily her people, but her mom's people

and the action sequences and just kind of the

whole world of Themyscira. Could you have seen,

could you have watched a whole movie just based

on that, Matt? Or do you think you got enough?

And what did you think of that opening sequence?

Oh, man. Well, first off, I want to say culturally,

they're her people, right? Like if even if they're

made of different stuff, that's where she was

right. But like, I don't. You need to have conflict

in order to make a movie work and and I don't

think there would have been a big enough conflict

in Themyscira short of like her like training

and then leaving and I think that you really

need to have this outside world story and I think

they chose a great one with World War one because

Here's the thing a superhero shows up and changes

major events You know over a hundred years ago

when we don't have the technology to really say

capture this and like get it spread out and then

disappears makes for like one a believable story

and two an alluring idea um that maybe you don't

get in that marvel universe that cinematic marvel

universe i think they did a great job picking

that and i think that that was a great conflict

to choose Amanda, what did you think of the beach

sequence where they're fighting and we get to

see all kinds of different Unique action sequences,

I guess within there as far as the way they're

fighting the way the women are fighting competing

against or combating against the you know, these

World War Soldiers, etc. I think it was a bit

sad Especially since they're essentially bringing

knives to gunfights here or a gunfight because

they don't have those kinds of weapons and that

technology is different despite all the skill

that they have and all the you know war strategy

knowledge that they possess there's still no

match for some of these brutes who are just pointing

a machine at them and firing. So it's really

sad, but it's also inspiring to see how brave

they are just going into battle, not caring that

the opposition is fighting with weapons they've

never seen before. So that was really cool. As

far as Themyscira goes, it looked amazing, like

I want to go vacation there, okay? And I think

that I would have even liked to see more of how

their society operated with just these women.

I think that would have been pretty cool. to

see more of their day -to -day life just of the

Amazons in their day -to -day. I think you get

a small glimpse but it was mostly like the training

and I think that you get like a zoom -over scene

of you know the people in the village doing their

thing. I would have liked to seen a little bit

more of it but I get why they couldn't spend

much more time with the Amazons. I think I had

three takeaways and you guys have touched on

a little bit of them from that opening sequence.

I think number one Think the director does a

really good job in the cinematographer or whatever

of Contrasting the world that we're exposed to

at the beginning and then to London immediately

after Like if it didn't look like a paradise

already when they immediately go to London and

you see all the smog and the pollution and the

dirt and just the dark tones It's it really stands

out Number two, I think it's amazing how much

character development they are able to do with

the Amazon women because It doesn't have that

much of a runtime and you're already invested

into like three or four of those characters by

the time that battle happens on the beach and

that's That's a pretty good achievement for the

directors and writers involved here to get us

hooked into those characters that quickly that

we actually care about what happens to them on

the beach and it's not just like hey here's a

bunch of characters and now we're fighting and

some of them are going to live, some of them

are going to die. So I really like that. And

then I think there's some underlying thematic

elements, too, that you get. Obviously, like

Amanda's talking about, you have this world that

has secluded themselves so much, this island,

and they're supposed to be the defenders of the

world. They're supposed to be protecting it,

and yet they've secluded themselves so much that

they have no clue. about the world that they

are there to protect. So I think there's some

interesting elements to that respect as well

that I really enjoyed. Obviously then we move

into more of the World War setting and Matt,

you mentioned the comparisons between what we

get here and what we get with the very first

Captain America. How do you think that worked?

Do you think it did it better, worse than Captain

America did? Do you like both of them equally

or how do you think it handled the elements of

kind of then engaging into actual historic events?

I think I would have wanted more from the Wonder

Woman. Like, I feel like Captain America had

enough and Wonder Woman didn't have enough, but

I feel like the quality of, like, I really love

that Wonder Woman, like, her war stuff was just

a straight -up World War movie, like, where they

got the classic, like, you know, like, all the

different guys coming together to do this thing,

like... you know, and then they just dropped

in a superhero. Like I love that concept. And

I would like I am a huge fan of genre movies

like adding in superhero or Star Wars or other

elements with things I like to get that going.

And this is just like a classic war movie that

happens to have Wonder Woman in it. So I think

it did a great job like that. I don't know that

I can really compare it in my mind. I think it's

I think. I think the fact that it's more realistic

and more like more historic because Captain America

had crazy blast -out lasers and all kinds of

weird tech Like I get like an Hydra and all that

But I think I liked Wonder Woman just doing the

real thing like when they have like little weird

things It's like I can almost believe that like

yeah, they probably were working on more hardcore

poison gases, right? like Think if anything,

I'd like to remove the one element that was like

like crazy Supertech I'm with you on that one

actually we'll get into that in a little bit

But Amanda what did you think of the World War

aspects and and her you know being in the front

lines and all that stuff Do you think it was

handled well here and did you like that in Captain

America as well? It's been a while since I've

seen the first Captain America, so I think that

Maybe it was a little bit more comic booky for

me in Captain America, but it felt more gritty

and real here. Even though Dr. Poison or whatever

her face was had that weird, you know, like,

puppeteer thing going on in her face, it was

less comic book feel for me here in this, and

I felt like the stakes were pretty high here,

even though it wasn't like some... Cosmic friggin

event. It was just a whole world war and you

felt those stakes and you felt the urgency throughout

to Get to where they were trying to to be to

to stop what was going on Although obviously

it does get to it sort of a cosmic event that

we'll get to here in a minute But before we kind

of get to the the third act and the villains

and kind of how that all plays out Overall did

any of you guys have moments or scenes that stood

out to you that above the rest any like memorable

moment or Sequence that you think you're gonna

remember later on and when you think back to

Wonder Woman Matt start with you Is it wrong

to say no? I think the thing I'm gonna talk about

the most like you know a year from now is like

isn't it nuts how Wonder Woman was like like

a flashback and a flashback and a flashback with

a bunch of flashbacks like that's what's gonna

stick with me like is that like it like just

literally just like a thousand flashbacks in

that movie like net some of them nested some

of them linear like like that's what's gonna

stick with me fair enough amanda any sequence

or scene that you were like this is awesome and

i'm gonna remember this ah just like that spanning

like Ocean view of Themyscira like how blue that

waters and how crisp that was that was amazing

and also I think a moment towards the end of

the film a very pivotal moment between Diana

and Stephen, okay I'm not gonna be original here

because I've heard this again from from multiple

people and this seems to be the the go -to scene

that everyone's going to but a lot of people

are crowning the the no man's land sequence as

one of the best scenes in any superhero film

they've ever seen as far as when Diana decides

to take matters into her own hand hands and you

know elevate herself from the trenches and kind

of go on that spree you know obviously ending

with a massive jump off of a pseudo shield type

of thing so a lot of people are saying that that

that's the moment that people are talking about

where they're saying they teared up or where

they you know were having like fist -raising

in the air moments or that they really kind of

were I guess in awe I guess that was the moment

that a lot of people were pointing to Matt did

you have a reaction to that scene? Oh, yeah,

like you are perfectly right. I think I went

into this movie with the wrong mindset I think

I was just like like there have been two DC's

burned me too many times before I'm not gonna

invest I'm just going to look at this critically

and like be like yeah, they hit those beats It

didn't hit those beats it did that right didn't

do that, right? Like because the more anyone

talks about it the more I think like yeah, it

was good. Yeah, it was fun like I thought that

thing with the I thought it did a great job of

showing the two characters learning from each

other and and growing closer where it's like

where he's like we can't do that and she's like

I can do that and then does it and then like

him going you know what I'm gonna support her

now like I like I didn't think she could do it

she did do it now we're going now I'm going whole

hog I'm gonna throw my full support literally

hold her weight if I can yeah absolutely and

I can see definitely what people are saying about

I think that moment was one of the most fun to

watch action sequences because you finally get

to see her just let loose and kind of it kind

of harkens back to what we saw when she was training

on the beaches at Themyscira and where she's

first kind of learning her power this isn't a

kind of her first actually putting that to use

so it was kind of a cool moment where like Amanda

said at the beginning where you really get to

see her come into this character and solidify

herself as a superhero. I think that's one moment

that you can kind of point to. Two other groups

that I want to talk about before we kind of get

into some final thoughts, but I want to get into

the Mary... band of misfits that Chris Pine's

character Steve Trevor collects and kind of continues

with them throughout the rest of the journey.

And then also let's get a quick talk about the

villains that are present in this film. So Amanda,

we'll start with you. What did you think of the

ragtag bunch that's going to accompany Steve

Trevor and Diana Prince through this war sequence?

I thought their team dynamic was pretty cool

I did like these these characters and I felt

that they did have a gov you know this band of

brothers kind of feel where they they've been

through some shit and they know each other and

they care for each other and They they trust

each other definitely like you see that It's

very plain that they trust each other and depend

on each other and I thought that those two or

three individuals rather, that we got were really

interesting in themselves and we didn't get very

much of just them. So it was nice to be vested

in these characters and not have gotten very

much of them. So that shows you how well that

they were portrayed just in those glimpses that

we do get of them. Yeah, and the characters we're

talking about is Samir Charlie and chief just

for the record Matt What did you think of that

trio and did it help did it hurt was it just

kind of? A non -issue because they didn't get

enough time or do you think it helped elevator

anything in the film? Oh, I definitely feel like

like one I earlier said I like I love that This

this is a thing is the trope has been done before

but it's got its twist that I love But then like

what's great is they aren't on each one is not

on for a lot of time. There's a whole lot of

movie here and they can't just follow this. This

is a different movie that we're tangentially

intersecting with and then moving on. That said,

I feel like the characters were so real, each

one of them could get their own movie and it

would be an interesting, compelling story that

would show their arc. Instead, we just get glimpses

of it like... Like, oh, I haven't heard him sing

in forever. Oh, like, you know, sometimes war

leaves, you know, scars you can't see. Like,

things like that. Like, I think they did an amazing

job with these extra supporting characters. And

I think that the movie is definitely better for

it. And if they had just done the Steve Trevor

and Wonder Woman, it would not have worked nearly

as well as it did. I like the Chief especially.

I don't know why. He was the one of the three

that I kind of liked the most. But I think they

did work. I think if they would have been used

more, got more screen time or more lines, I think

it would have... Teetered on the point of not

working. I think it would have crossed some lines

that I didn't want it to I'd like that they're

more subtly in the background and kind of just

more supporting of supporting characters almost

they're like a layer down Let's get into the

villains a little bit because obviously something

that Marvel has always struggled with According

to a lot of people is getting the villains, right?

I don't know if people feel the same way about

DC or if it's just superhero films in general

So we have kind of a trio of villains in this

film with Eric Ludendorff the the German the

general of the German army, we have Dr. Poison

as the evil scientist, and then of course, I

don't think there needs to be a spoiler alert

because it's already sold $100 million worth,

but Ares is involved as well. Yeah, you don't

have to tell them who Ares is. Ares and the General

and Dr. Poison. Amanda, we'll start with you.

But what did you think of the villains? Did they

work for you? Were they kind of a let down? Or

where do they rank amongst villains that you've

seen in some of the other superhero films? I

think that the villain twist was really cool.

I liked that part of it. And I think that the

villains that we did get were... Diabolical enough

that it did push things along until you get this

crazy twist and this reveal of Ares Which I didn't

see coming at all. So Was that the case with

you guys? I mean, there was no clues whatsoever

to indicate that as far as what I was seeing

I Guess I didn't see it coming necessarily but

I was questioning the purpose of Certain characters

in the film up to that point and they didn't

make sense to me until that happened. So it was

kind of like, I guess it tied some things together,

but it made it kind of jine for some of those

characters up until that point. So maybe I didn't

see it coming, but I'll get to my thoughts on

Aerie's involvement after you guys finish. But

Matt, what did you think of the three villains?

Do these a good set of villains or just kind

of superhero villains? I kind of want more from

each of them. Like, I feel like, well... Okay,

I wanted more Dr. Poison. I thought she was incredibly

interesting, and I could have used more of her

Ludendorff, maybe a little bit less of. Like,

I feel like this whole Super Science take that

they took with him at the end was just... But

Ares has always been an antagonist in the Wonder

Woman stories. Like, I've read a number of Wonder

Woman comics. He's a long -lasting villain that

comes back a bunch. And it's more of a indirect

threat. And I like that concept. And I like that

they kind of played around in that space in this

movie. things about the reveal. Chris, my buddy

that came with us to the movie, he is known for

being really good at seeing these things. It

said something about a half a second into when

that character first showed up. That's the guy

like just immediately like, this is what's going

to happen. Here's how this story is going to

play out. And it's like, shut up, dude. I'm trying

to enjoy the movie. And so like I can't have

an opinion on whether I saw it or not saw it

because I didn't have time to And I think a lot

of people I did hear a number of people that

were like that as soon as they see that character

on screen They're like that so he's gonna play

a bigger role than what we think so I Did hear

a couple people say that but continue fun fact.

He's one of my favorite characters in the Harry

Potter films Okay, let's not reveal who it is,

but we'll say what movie the actors in Before

Matt did you have some more thoughts on the villains

before I get into my feelings? Oh, I don't I

think you're good to go. All right I agree with

you 100 % I needed more doctor poison I thought

they they the way they introduced that character

and the way they kind of depicted it Made me

want more like I was I thought there was gonna

be another level there was gonna be a you know

Whether it's another level of evil or another

level of power or something I could have even

I might have even preferred if like she elevated

herself by maybe even taking out Ludendorf in

some way shape or form Like she sees him getting

crazy or whatever and she reveals like another

side and kind of you know the Stabs him in the

back type of thing or something to elevate those

two characters would have been cool because that's

all I needed in this film I did not need Aries

in this film at all and I think it's problematic

and I think it leads to a lot of problems in

the third act because I think this film is a

really great film until the third act and until

Aries is involved and then I had more issues

than I was expecting to because I think they

somewhat undermine what they've set up up to

that point because up to that point you have

a conflict between Steve Trevor and Diana Prince

on why this is going on because obviously the

whole setup of this film I guess we kind of forgot

to mention this but she is headed to this world

and into follow Steve Trevor because she is after

areas because the God of War is the one that's

responsible for all of basically mankind's reasons

for greed and doing wrong and having a war in

the first place. If you can eliminate areas,

everybody will be nice again and we won't have

war is the thought process. And we have Steve

Trevor's character who's being put in this situation

as more so the the window into reality for her

and to try to cure her of her naivety of how

the world works and the fact that Men are gonna

be men and with free will there's gonna be evil

and it's not all controlled by a puppet master

type of thing So you have whether regardless

of which one you want to be true You have that

conflict going on between those two as they're

each trying to convince each other of their point

of view And I think that's a great way to develop

these two characters and it adds to a lot of

character moments as far as progressing them

throughout the film. And I think the film is

better off if it's Diana Prince is the one that's

coming to terms with how the world works outside

of her bubble island that she's lived her whole

life and outside of the stories that she's been

handed down from her family, etc. And I think

to include areas at this point is problematic

for that because it almost says that she is right

about that and I think it takes away some of

the other Aspects that we've gotten up to that

so though because everything else she proved

as She made him a believer of so this is one

more thing That she was right on to make him

see that but she's not necessarily right not

necessarily Like once he's defeated everything's

gonna be okay, but the fact that he was behind

something was true Yeah, and that's what I'm

saying. I didn't like that aspect I if Matt's

if you know like Matt what you're saying like

Ares is a character that's gonna be prominent

in Wonder Woman's a world at some point I think

you bring that in later on like we're talking

about a god Like do you introduce a god like

villain in the first? exposure to this character

or do you wait and bring that on in later films

or in some type of you know crossover team -up

film where now you're dealing with a real big

bad guy and I think it would have been better

if it would have been like the mystery would

have continued like is Aries amongst us is he

still pulling strings as he's still going through

and whispering things that are Causing different

things to happen throughout history as we know

it I think that that would have been better left

as a mystery and maybe Eventually revealed later

on down the road. Like you said, it's a character

that's supposed to come in and out and be a long

-standing character So does it make sense to

bring them in right away at the beginning and

end it right away at the beginning if it is ended

I guess but I just I question the inclusion of

the reveal and actually seeing him. I don't question

the idea of Him being a topic and a theme and

somebody she's searching for but I don't necessarily

think it was needed to be You know portrayed

in a physical manner in this film Amanda you

disagree. I don't know. I just think you're being

picky about it. I don't think it's being picky

I'm just saying with the themes that I was enjoying

throughout the film. I think it contradicts some

of those in certain ways Being picky I think

is now this leaves it open though for her to

focus on Things that she's gonna be focusing

on in the Justice League, but it wouldn't have

been so much of a more epic reveal though If

you have her now convinced that he doesn't exist

and that men are bad and that she has to cope

with this world And she's living in it and then

later on down the road all of a sudden It's like

boom wait a second. I was right about this. That's

assuming. She's gonna get another movie How would

we even know that she's gonna get another movie?

Do you know the world we live in right now? DC

would have still made some more movies There

has not been a superhero film that has tanked

yet, but let me jump in here. Yeah, there hasn't

there hasn't been since Yeah, okay, yeah, I guess

if we ignore the really bad here's the thing

Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad and Man of

Steel We're all critically panned. We're all

generally hated by audiences and all made billions

of dollars Yeah, so there's a good chance that

this movie even if Even if it was bad and terrible

and terrible bad like would have still made plenty

of money Although it you know being the first

superhero movie in this new Golden Age of superhero

movies to have a female protagonist There are

a lot of risks that maybe don't apply to the

other ones that said I think Kevin's half right.

I think what they should have done is made it

just full on Dr. Poison and then been like, ìHey,

we not only did a full female protagonist, we

did a full female antagonist and it was good

and great and it would have been perfect .î And

had Ludendorff just slowly become like a puppet.

That like law, you know, like got doubled cross

or whatever But I think airy should have been

there and I think airy should have been an antagonizing

force throughout the movie or A reveal at the

end that he was the strings puller the whole

time so that we get you know, like This he's

bigger than you you're even thinking, you know,

you're you're thinking of I need to go kill a

man But this is not a man. This is a god and

he is pulling the strings worldwide. He's Loki

on a whole other Loki level. That would have

been really cool. Sorry to jump in and let you

continue. I think that would have been an awesome

way to do it. I think it would have been best

then to reveal only to the audience at the end.

The problem with that is I you know part of me

wants to say yes, that would be great But part

of me also wants to say no for two reasons one

Aries oftentimes does like to show up to directly

antagonize her and be like, you know, like I

didn't even do that war like But to I think that

that it is such a terrible precedent in the movie

if she like if Constantly a things happening

and she's seeing it and no one else is seeing

it It makes it the other harder for the other

characters to believe her and like it like no

I mean she doesn't even get to see it like well

the thing is that like there's like a moment

where she's like Ares is real and someone else

is like Izzy though and like they have a split

and they have trouble because of that and like

if you take the Ares physically out and you take

any sign of him that is concrete away from those

characters it's hard to bring those characters

back together and like when you bring them back

together there's going to be this friction of

well we have entirely different belief systems

on you know RE Ares and so like I think that

you should let One of them, you know, one of

the non -believers know for sure before the end

or or you could like have airy show up and Then

to Steve Trevor and have him be like, oh for

sure and then have him die so the audience gets

that closure of, okay, at least in his last moments,

he believed her. Because otherwise, if you don't

have that showing of Ares, it's going to be a

tension between those characters, and it's not

going to be an enjoyable experience for the audience.

Yeah, I can see that. I think there's just multiple

ways they could have gone about it, and I think

if there's any misstep from the direction or

from the writing, it is for the way that they

handled Ares. And in that last act, I think things

could have been tweaked in a number of different

ways that might have worked out better. be done

a little bit less undermining of some of the

themes that were built up up to that point especially

concerning Diana and Steve Trevor. Alright Amanda

before we get to our final grades give us your

actual final thoughts on the film. Does this

make you more or less excited for Justice League

and the future of the DC? Have they righted the

ship or I guess for you are they just staying

on course and they've always been right. Well,

I wasn't like a crazy fan of Suicide Squad either,

so don't get it twisted. I'm talking about Batman

v Superman. And I enjoyed it. I'm not going to

back down from that. So, final thoughts? Yeah,

final thoughts, and does this leave you excited

for more DC films, or what do you think? Oh,

hell yeah. I'm definitely even more excited,

if that's believable, for Justice League than

I was before. And I enjoyed... the seriousness

of the tone here and I think that it was a it

played really well on the humor but it also gave

you just enough to to make the stakes super real

and have this feel much like with Captain America

this would you know they it put the comic book

tone onto a real events just like the comics

tend to do and I think that that was super true

here as well in this film. And I think that even

like all the details that were in there, all

the attention to detail, the props, the costuming,

just the sets in general, I think were great.

So overall, I really super enjoyed it. Matt,

is this a situation where DC has righted the

ship or is this a situation where DC just gave

up and said, we'll be like Marvel now? It is

a thing. You can have one misstep. like where

you're doing a bunch of good and then you accidentally

in Iron Man 2. But sometimes I guess you could

do the other way where you got a bunch of terrible

movies and you've made millions of great movies.

Like Warner Brothers has done some great movies

in its time and somehow they did a great one

here that also involved superheroes which they'd

never done before. I'm not convinced that Justice

League is gonna be any good but I'm gonna go

see it. Do you think they took do you think though

that they gave up though because it's not just

we're doing an origin story of a character It's

also we're gonna add an element of humor. We're

going to You know have this in a setting where

it's gonna be you know similar to like what we

talked about with Captain America what they did

are they are they trying to take you know a page

here and a page there and a page over there out

of Marvel's and just trying to say will do what

they're doing or do you think this was uh...

uh... unique enough because of the female protagonist

and and director said or said here's the thing

competition makes you better i don't care what

what industry you're in if someone is doing something

in there more successful at it than you then

you're going to look at yourself and you're gonna

try to improve yourself and his bank marvel is

hella good competition they're doing it right

like they're not yet apart every single time

and the more Warner Brothers can borrow from

that but still keep it their own, the better

they're going to be. Their way was not working

and it wasn't going to last. Because here's the

thing if they if they chalked out, I mean, maybe

about a fourth or fifth terrible movie I'm gonna

stop showing up like I you don't have you don't

have free license to my money You know, I've

got hope and I've got dreams, but if you keep

dashing them, I'm going to walk away Whereas

Marvel right now I'm invested they could do ten

schlocky terrible movies and I'd probably go

to all of them because it'd be like Maybe they'll

get it back this time. I don't know what they

lost. Maybe they'll get it back. But I'm invested

in Marvel and I'm not invested in the DC universe

on screen. But if they are able to write the

ship, they might be a force to be reckoned with

because they do have a lot of interesting characters

that they could actually get into if they were

ever... to find success in their formula or in

somebody else's formula for that matter. Alright,

last statement and get your guys's grade here

for me. My last question for you guys. We've

said that, I don't know if Amanda's in agreement

or not, but Matt and I have certainly said that

this is the best of this recent DC Universe films.

Like it's the best we've gotten. Is it the best

DC film that we've gotten and still not the best

superhero film of 2017? Matt? Oh, jeez. What

do we have other than Guardians? Logan. Logan?

Logan and Guardians so far. I don't think it's

the best one of 2017. I think it's unfair, though,

because Logan was like, hey, this is the final

chapter of a guy who's been playing this character

for 20 years, and we're going to go all out.

Logan is amazing. And then Guardians of the Galaxy

was like, hey, here's Guardians of the Galaxy.

but with like more jokes and more character development

somehow and it's like... I think it's almost

as good as Guardians of the Galaxy, nowhere near

Logan. And guess what? Thor Ragnarok is going

to be amazing. We do have a bunch more still

to come, obviously, with Spider -Man, Thor, and

Justice League. So it's a heavy competition this

year for superhero films. Amanda, get your take

on is it the best DC film we've gotten so far?

And is it the best superhero film this year so

far? So are you talking DC? Not Dark Knight.

We're talking Man of Steel, Batman v Superman,

and Suicide Squad. Yeah, I'll say yeah. Okay,

so you're in agreement with us on that. Yeah.

Is it the best superhero film you've seen this

year? Or is Logan or Guardians of the Galaxy

still above it? Yeah, I think both probably are

still a bit above it. I know most people are

putting Logan above it. A lot of people are putting

Wonder Woman and Guardians. Some are flip -flopping

those two and not sure where to go with it. I

can't ignore the fun I had with Guardians of

the Galaxy. That's gonna ride that one higher

than it probably should be ranked on my list

for the rest of the year because I just laughed

so freaking much. Alright, final score for Wonder

Woman, what score do you give it Amanda out of

10? I'll give it an 8. 8 out of 10. 8 out of

10 from Amanda. Matt, what do you got? Yeah,

I can ride the 8 of 8 train. Alright, I'm gonna

give it a 7. I'll give the first two acts like

an eight or a nine and I'll give the last act

like a five or six so I think that equates to

a seven. Alright so that's it for our Wonder

Woman discussion if you agree or disagree with

us on our takes on Wonder Woman please let us

know by going to the website www .geekcastradio

.com find the Cinema Geek post and comment there

and we will definitely interact with you and

reply. And we can also interact with you or reply

if you contact us via Twitter. The show handle

is at CinemaGeekCast. My Twitter is at OptimusSolo.

Amanda, yours is? At Hard Candy Mandy Eyes Snow

Eyes. Matt, your Twitter is? I'm at FridleyScent.

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