Interview with Dave McElvenney on Comics Origins and Reading History

Good evening. This is Snapper Car Reporting.

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week's Pull Bag. Hello and welcome to the Pull

Bag, only on the Geekast Radio Network. This

is episode 496, I believe. We are four episodes

away from 500. 500 episodes of this podcast,

folks. Can you believe it? I am, of course, TFG1

Mike. Joining me for the first time, I am popping

his podcast cherry, I think, is Dave McElvenny.

Hello, sir. How are you? Good. How are you, Mike?

I am well. I am as well as I can be, I guess.

You know, what is it I always say? Things just

keep on going and going and going like the Energizer

Bunny. Sometimes I wish it would stop, but it

keeps going and going and going. So yes, we are

in the middle of September, folks. We might actually

be at the end of September, depending on the

releases, because I'm recording this way in advance.

And yeah, we are on our way to 500 episodes,

and the 500th episode, I hope, will be. And of

course, I'm saying this now means I'm probably

cursing myself for it not to happen, but I'm

hoping it will be Michael David Sims from Earth2

.net. But Dave McElvenny, comic fan, comic guru

as you are, because I've only ever heard Michael

Bailey read your emails. So this is like, because

this is your cherry popping podcast, you know,

I don't know as much. And that's why we ask these

25 questions. So did you grow up reading comics?

And at what age do you first remember reading

or noticing comics? Well, I certainly grew up

reading comics. As far as when I remember starting,

I really don't know because comics have been

part of my life pretty much since I could read,

which was about four years old. I grew up in

a house. When I was very young, I had two older

brothers and an older sister. and then later

on two younger sisters. And there were comic

books around the house constantly, mostly from

my brothers. My sister would read some, but mostly

my brothers. And, you know, it's just, I honestly

don't remember a time when I wasn't reading comics.

Interesting. Oh, I've been pretty much reading

comics for over 60 years at this point. Wow,

that's awesome. Very cool, very cool. As a kid,

was there a parent, a friend, or someone who

just said, here, kid, read this comic, go away,

you bother me? Well, I would have to say my mom.

One of the ways that, you know, with a good -sized

family that she kept us occupied and out of her

hair was probably with comic books. When I was

very young, my mom used to go downtown shopping,

downtown Philadelphia. And there was what was

called the Reading Terminal Market. It was a

market underneath the Reading Terminal train

station. And they had this used bookstore. And

part of their one section of the bookstore was

all old comics. I don't know if you're old enough

to have seen. comics with the top parts of the

covers cut off i'm not old enough to remember

that but i have seen that because that's been

a thing since obviously then yeah so i have i

have seen them like that but i didn't i maybe

at a walden books or something in the 80s i don't

know yeah because apparently discovered later

that the comic publishers would ship you know

things out and when uh comic newsstands, dealers,

whatever they were in those days, had more than

they sold, they could get a refund. Rather than

shipping the entire comic books back, they were

to cut off the top third of the cover and send

those back. So what would often happen is they

would cut those tops of the covers off to get

their refund and then sell them cheap. So my

mom, whenever she would go downtown, would always

stop at the Reading Terminal Market and get,

you know, a whole bunch of comics of all sorts

to bring home to us. I don't think she even knew

for the most part what she was picking up. It

was just she would just, you know, grab a handful

of comics and, you know, bring them home for

us to devour. And we'd sit there and read them

all and, you know, swap them around from brother

to brother. So, you know, it was a while before

I started reading comics that had their entire

covers on them. But I've been reading them pretty

much since I can remember. Very cool. A lot of

that was due to my mom. How many siblings do

you have? I am the fourth of six children. Oh,

wow. Okay. My mom was the fifth of six, I think.

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

Like, when our parents, you know, when we would

say, oh, mom, if you're going to the store, or

if they left us home alone, or whatever, or if

they left us with a babysitter, if you stop it,

again, you know, by the 80s, we had Walden Books,

we had other, you know, some bookstores would

carry comics, but most of the time, you'd have

to find a hole in the wall. Like I said, most

of the time, I remember Spinner Rex at Walden

Books. And be like, Mom, if you're going to the

mall, stop in Waldenbooks. And she would, like

you said, she would just grab a stack of them

because back then they were, what, $1 .50, $1

.25, whatever it was in the 80s and even before

then. And she'd bring them home and I'd just

look through them and pick out the characters

that appealed to me, I guess, at the time. So

speaking of characters, when you were a kid,

which characters were your favorites? Ooh, probably.

I would say top of my list would be Superman.

I've always loved Superman. That man won't quit

as long as he can still draw a breath. None of

my teammates will. Me? I've got a different problem.

I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard.

Always taking constant care not to break something.

To break someone. Never allowing myself to lose

control, even for a moment, or someone could

die. But you can take it, can't you, big man?

What we have here is a rare opportunity for me

to cut loose and show you just how powerful I

really am. You know, Superman, Batman. Eventually,

you know, I started reading some Marvel, too.

Mostly I read DC, but then I started reading

Marvel. I really enjoyed the Avengers and the

Fantastic Four and Spider -Man and things like

that. But pretty much, you know, the superheroes,

I would say. Right. Mainly DC is kind of where

I would lean. And even now, it's still my preference.

Oh, boy. He hasn't even seen the questions, folks,

and he's already answered question four. You've

got to pick DC or Marvel because that's the age

old. Look, and I'll ask this one next, but right

now in 2022, there are a bunch of new and established

comic publishers that are not DC or Marvel, but

most of the time when someone says, you read

comics? they're going to think DC or Marvel because

they've been the big two since 1938 and 1939.

So DC or Marvel and why either way? Well, I would

probably have to say DC, number one, probably

because that was what I read most of first when

I was very young. But I just, I'm, and particularly

DC Silver Age, that's my sweet spot. So I grew

up with a very particular sort of comic reading

habit. And that's kind of what I like. You know,

it's just the very basic, you know, these are

the good guys. These are the bad guys. Nobody

has any real moral dilemmas. All the good guys

are friends and work together. You know, it's

just, you know, they don't. Well, I mean, except,

yeah, I mean, there is one exception, though.

I mean, after all, he is only a part -timer.

Oh, Justice League animated series Batman. Gotta

love it. Well, I mean, you know, again. A part

-timer, remember. Yeah. I'm going back to Silver

Age, like I said. True, yes, yes. Back then they

were, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were not, you

know, it wasn't, you know, when I. Even when

I started reading some Marvel, it was even in

Marvel's early Silver Age, it was uncommon to

have, you know, two people that you knew were

heroes, but seeing them in conflict with each

other. Yeah. That became much more of a Marvel

thing later on. Yeah. But even early in the Silver

Age with Marvel, you didn't really see that.

They were pretty much, you know, on the same

page. Well, again, back then in the – and I don't

– so for me, just for your people who have listened

to the last 495 -plus episodes of this podcast

know this. You don't know this. But for me, I

guess I'm the Bronze Age or whatever is after

the Bronze Age because I was always a cartoon

kid in the 80s. I've read – I had read maybe

a – like I remember the Spider -Girl comics in

the 90s. I remember a couple other things based

off of, or probably where the cartoon got it

from was, you know, the comics, but you know,

in line with the Spider -Man, the animated series

kind of thing. And I have tried dipping my reading

glasses into some of the older stuff. And I just,

it's not the stories. It's the art. Sometimes

that old art, I just, I don't know what it is.

I guess I'm used to the more modern stuff. I

don't know. Well, I think that's probably true

for most people, no matter what they like. It's

what they started reading first that is what

they really like. I mean, I would guess, based

on, you know, saying you're pretty much reading

in the 80s or watching cartoons in the 80s, if

you picked up... a say superman comic book from

the 1950s with wayne boring art you would go

oh this is dreadful and although wayne boring

is not by any means my favorite superman artist

um you know there are many people around my age

or a bit older who really love wayne boring you

know so it's kind of And what you really fell

in love with whenever it was that you started

to read and fall in love with the comics is probably

pretty much your baseline for your taste, whatever

that may be. And I'm old enough to have gone

through all sorts of stages with comics of, oh,

I love this stuff. Oh, now they've ruined it.

Oh, well, some of this looks like it might be

good. I'll read this. And then eventually you

reach a point, or at least I have. Where you

go, everybody gets to like what they like, whether

it's my taste or not. So, you know, you kind

of meet people where they are and see that. Yeah,

absolutely. Like, look, I've been saying this

on almost every podcast I've recorded in the

last month and a half. I do not like the current

trend of, here's my hot take. There's no such

thing as a hot take. Opinions are like assholes.

Everybody's got one. Seriously. At the same time,

I can respect... I'll ask this later, but if

somebody sits here and tells me, this is, insert

character name here, my favorite character because

of this, and I'll be like, yeah, I never get

into that character, but I still respect the

fact that you like whatever character it is that

you're talking about. Some people I know will

say, why are you doing this? Or why are you reading?

Why are you watching that cartoon? Why are you

reading that comic? And I'll be like, because

I'm wanting to see what it's about. And the DC

Marvel thing over the years, there is one thing.

I know I will never get it, but I remember having

the four issues in the 90s. If there is anything

to me, until they do another one just like this

or something like this, that 90s DC versus Marvel

series, that four -issue miniseries, they were,

by the 90s, DC and Marvel, like you said, when

you were growing up, you know, whatever, they're

pretty much black and white. The good guys are

the good guys. The bad guys are the bad guys.

There is no moral. There's a moral compass, but

it's pretty much pointed at either direction.

And by the 90s, I think both companies are like,

we need to switch things up a bit. We need to

make it more dynamic. We need to do this. Oh,

hey, let's team up and then never talk about

it again. Because I cannot find those four issues

in like an eBay lot for a decent price. And the

collected edition don't even get me started.

I'm like, you want $600 for what? It's crazy.

But DC and Marvel, like I said, are always the

big two, and they always will be. They'll be

the big two after all of us are gone. Whoever

we leave left on this earth will still, you know,

inherit those comics. Hello, folks. This is TFG1

Mike. And I just wanted to cut in here because

since Dave and I recorded this episode, I was

able to track down a copy of DC vs. Marvel, the

physical trade. I didn't pay $600, thank God.

Because I was never, ever going to do that. But

it was a higher than normal price for a... almost

30 year old trade paperback, but it is what it

is, but I have it now and I'm okay. And it will

be a future episode of the podcast. Now back

to the show. So other than DC and Marvel, who

are some of your other favorite publishers? To

be honest, I don't know. I know there are a lot

of other publishers, but I don't know that I've

really read any others besides DC and Marvel,

other than when I was very young, you know, reading

things like because when I was young, I would

read whatever my mom brought home. So I would

read, you know, the Carltons. I would read, you

know, Archie. I would read Richie Rich. I would

read Classics Illustrated. I would read whatever

my mom brought home in that bag. So in that sense,

you know, there were a lot of sort of minor.

I guess, you know, gold key, Dell, whatever that

I would read. But I know the more in, in more

modern times, there are a lot of other publishers

that seem to have a lot more cache than say,

you know, Dell or gold key, but I've never really

read much of that. So I can't really, you know,

talk too much about that because. That's just

something I don't know much about. Yeah, absolutely.

So you've lived long enough that you've gone

through everything with this, but print or digital,

which one, both either or, and why or why not?

Ooh, well, I love the feeling of a comic book

in my hands, but at age 66, trying to read a

comic book. is a lot harder than it was when

I was, say, 16 or 6, you know. So for ease of

reading, I have to say digital. But just for

the sensory pleasure, I like, especially because

I like to read old comics, not that I have a

lot of old comics, but just, you know. Being

able to feel a comic, if it's a really old comic,

to be able to smell it. I know that sounds a

little weird, but, you know. Oh, no, it doesn't

sound weird at all. Old comics, like old books,

have a particular smell about them. And, you

know, it's just a really neat sensory experience.

But as I said, at age 66, it's a lot harder to

read comics than it used to be. And so. Being

able to read something on the Kindle, especially

if it's something that has the guided view where

it'll blow up the whole panel to the full screen

of the Kindle, that makes life a lot easier when

you're trying to read stuff. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I wish to holy hell that Amazon did not buy

Comixology and screw it up. But they did, and

there's nothing we can do about that, sadly.

But it is. Yeah, no, when I started this podcast

almost 10 years ago, it took me, just like everybody

else, I would go to the comic shop every Wednesday.

I would go to Free Comic Book Day every year.

I would do what comic people do, what us comic

readers do. We interact with the community and

whatever. We did, I think we've done one or two

of these, but we did, I sometimes will do theme

months. So usually March is like Marvelous March.

And like the first Marvelous March, we picked

a couple of like two stories from each character.

So like Wolverine, Spider -Man, Captain America,

Iron Man. Those are the four characters in the

first Marvelous March here inside the pull bag.

And then later on, we did a couple of Punisher

months. And my friend Amy had been telling me

about Comixology and the guided view and how

awesome it is and how this it is and that it

is. And I'm like, okay, awesome, very cool. I

will check it out at some point or another. And

then we were reading for this month, and it was

like, okay, I'm sitting there. In a nice little

easy chair reading, welcome back, Frank. The

omnibus. All 12 issues. That thing is heavy as

hell. That thing is like a frigging brick. So

I'm reading it and I'm reading it and I'm reading

it and I'm enjoying the story. And I'll link

the episode in the post if people want to go

back and listen to that episode. But that book

made me go to Comixology and Digital Comics because

I literally, not because of the content, but

because it was so strenuous for me to hold the

book, I fell asleep. The book fell out of my

hand and fell out of the chair. It hit the carpeted

floor and woke me up. I'm like, next day, I'm

like, okay, I'm signing up for Comixology. That's

it. Done. Yeah, The Punisher made me go digital.

It's just, I don't know, man. It just seems like,

you know, it's the better route to go because

it's easier. Like everything you just said. You

know, so it is that. All right, who are some

of your favorite comics writers and why? Ooh,

let's see. I probably have to put Elliot S. Magan

at the top of my list, and only partly for his

comic books, actually. Many people who know me

know that one of my favorite novels is Magan's

Miracle Monday. It's a prose novel featuring

Superman basically fighting the devil. And I

fell in love with that book when it was first

published, which is probably, what, over around

40 years maybe, maybe a little older. Oh, wow.

But I've reread that book every May since it's

been published. I reread it every year during

the month of May. because the book takes place

during the month of May. So that's my little

homage to that book. But I like a lot of Magan's

comic book stories. One of the ones I really

enjoy is called The Einstein Connection. And

it's basically every year in March, Lex Luthor

breaks out of prison and Superman goes and catches

him. And in the course of this story where, you

know, Like you'll see Luther escape, you'll see

Superman catch him. And it's like, you know,

a year later, basically same thing happens. Another

year later, same thing happens. And eventually

over the course of this, Superman discovers that

Luther is escaping every year on Albert Einstein's

birthday. Because he wants to go see the statue

of Einstein in front of the Smithsonian. And

so. As an homage, because Einstein is kind of

Luthor's hero. So Superman figures this out and

catches him, but then he takes him to that statue.

And then brings him back to prison, of course.

But I thought that was kind of a neat touch,

because I always have harbored the secret hope

that... Superman and Lex Luthor would become

friends again, as they were once when they were

both boys in Smallville in the Silver Age continuity.

So I like I love Megan. Let's see who else. Gil

Kane. He's done some really good stuff. Aside

from his artwork, he's he's done, you know, some

good writing. Edmund Hamilton, who is a real

when if you've got a science fiction kind of

based story. Edmund Hamilton's really a good

guy to go to. He wrote a lot of Legion of Superheroes

stories. And he also did a fair number of Superman

and I think possibly Superboy stories back in

the day. Again, this is kind of all Silver Age.

Right. I'm trying to think as far as, say, Bronze

Age, maybe. Well, late Silver Age, early Bronze

Age, I enjoyed a lot of the Carrie Bates stories

in the Flash comics. He would always have stories

with some kind of interesting twist at some point.

But again, you have to remember how old I am

because when I first started reading comics,

for the most part, the reader didn't have any

idea who the writer was. There weren't credits.

I mean, the only credit I ever saw when I was

really young was, you know, Batman by Bob Kane.

You know, and of course, you come to find out

later on, he really wasn't doing a whole lot

with Batman by the time I was reading it. But

he, you know, he had a contract where he got

credit, where for the most part, it probably

wasn't until much later that people started getting

credit. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't like, I think it

was like the last 10 years that Bill started

getting credit for. Yeah, for Bill Finger, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, I don't mind when

there are two writers on something or two artists

on, like, artists it's easier because obviously

artists, like, the biggest example I can give

you is that Alex Milne, who did the Transformers

stuff for IDW in the last 17 years, he has a

specific style. Another artist that I know, Livio

Remendelli, who also does Transformers stuff,

he has a specific style. But whenever there are

two writers on books, I'm like, take Gates of

Gotham. It's Scott Snyder and Kyle Higgins. Well,

to me... I hear, because I had interviewed Kyle

back in 2013, and when I was reading Gates of

Gotham after I had talked to Kyle, because Kyle's

a big Batman the Animated Series fan and a big

Nightwing fan and that kind of stuff, obviously

Kyle wrote New 52 Nightwing, I hear Lauren Lester

from the cartoon in my head, and I hear Kyle's

style of writing in Gates of Gotham more than

Scott's. So it's always weird to me when there

are two writers on one book. Yeah, and that makes

it harder to distinguish. Yep, absolutely. I

just realized, let me correct something I said

a few moments ago when I was giving you some

of my favorite writers. I said Gil Kane, which

is nuts, of course, because he wasn't a writer.

My brain was saying Gardner Fox, and my mouth

said Gil Kane. I don't know why I did that. Oh,

there you go. Yeah. Gardner Fox has some amazing

stuff out there. Oh yeah. Absolutely. All right.

What's next? Let's see here. We've got, okay.

Continuing on with stories and writers and whatever,

what defines a good story to you? Like what pulls

you in? Ooh, pulls me into a story. That's hard

to say. Cause what I like in a story, isn't necessarily

something you see right at the beginning to pull

you in uh i like a story that um shows me gives

me something that i would not have thought of

and you know in the course of a story you know

how a lot of times you're reading something or

watching a tv show and 15 minutes in you go okay

i know exactly where this is going and A lot

of many times it goes exactly the way you were

thinking it would go. Yeah. I like a story that

sets up expectations, but then thwarts those

expectations in some interesting or surprising

way. I can't think offhand of too many comic

book stories that do that right off the top of

my head. But I don't know if you watch the. the

CW series, Superman and Lois. I do, but I need

to catch up, but I do. The writers of that show

do that sort of thing perfectly where they set

things up and in the hands of lesser writers,

you would go, okay, I see where this is going,

but they make you think it's going one way. And

then at a certain point they take a hard turn.

Where you go, that wasn't what I thought. And

this is even better than what I thought it was

going to be. Yeah. Yeah, it's just one of those

things where that, like I've said this before,

it's the Superman television show we have deserved

for over 75 years. Yeah. You know, it just is.

I mean, there have been other Superman TV shows

and cartoons and whatever, and those are good

in their own way. Say what you want about. See,

the thing with me is I'm more about the fiction

than I am about whatever the person is playing

the character. Just because he's an asshole now

doesn't mean I don't have to dislike Clark in

Lois and Clark. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, it's the entertainment that draws me in.

It's not like back in the 80s and 90s and even

earlier. Nobody knew. You look at Looney Tunes.

Nobody knew that Mel Blanc did most, if not all,

of the male voices. Obviously, you know, because

he's credited as the only voice actor on almost

every single Looney Tunes cartoon. Until June

4, I came around doing Granny and some of the

other ones. But we're there to see Bugs Bunny

and Daffy Duck. We're not there to get into the

performers' personal lives. It was always a thing

for me as a kid in the 80s. My mom taught me,

mind your own business. I don't know. I'm on

a tangent at this point. I don't know, man. It

just irks me like, oh, you like that show, but

that person that plays that character is a monster

in real life. But I'm watching a TV show from

40 years ago. It's fiction. Somebody wrote this.

I don't know. It's possible to enjoy the art

and not particularly like the artist. Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely. All right. What are, speaking of

artists, what are some of your favorite comics

artists? Or who are some of your favorite comics

artists? Well, probably, again, going back to

my roots, Kurt Swan. Because for the most part,

when I was growing up, he was the Superman artist.

You know, you could always tell a Kurt Swan drawn

comic book. You know, there was no way to mistake

him for somebody else. So it was in a sense it

was because I, you know, you recognize that and

you go, OK, that's that's Superman, because that

was kind of the house style was set by Kurt Swan

in those days. So, OK, that's Superman. Obviously,

the guy who drew that is the guy who draws Superman.

And, you know, eventually that becomes comforting

and you get used to it to the point where if

you were reading what in the old days were the

80 page giants or annuals and you'd see an old

story from, you know, before you were born and

it was drawn by a different artist, you'd go,

what the heck is this? You know, like I had that

reaction, I think probably the first time I saw

a Wayne Boring drawn comic, you know, because

it's it's clearly different from Kurt Swann.

And you're looking at it going, well, this isn't

right. This doesn't look right. Aside from the

fact that Superman is running through the sky

instead of flying. But, you know, because that's

what Wayne Boring drew. But it's just not what

you're used to. And then eventually you get used

to the idea that there are different people drawing,

you know, the comics. You know, whether I just

use Superman just because that's kind of my main

point of reference. But beyond Kurt Swan, I would

say I love Neil Adams. I mean, he took things

in a completely different direction than Kurt

Swan, and I loved it. I would say John Byrne

to some extent. I'm of an age where I was not

thrilled with the Byrne reboot and Man of Steel

and that stuff, but I have to credit. Him as

an artist, he draws a really good Superman. And

I'm sure, you know, other characters that he

draws too. I'm trying to think who else. Some

people have styles that I find odd but interesting.

Tim Sales. I remember seeing somebody had recommended.

Something once a Superman book that he had done.

And my first reaction was, oh, my God, that's

not Superman because he was gigantic. I mean,

he was he was this massive blocky guy. Wow. And

you look at it and you go, well, how does anybody

see Clark Kent? And not know he's Superman because

they have the same unique build like. Just forget

the glasses and the hair and all everything else.

You'd go that, you know, that blows the whole

secret identity out of the water. But it's an

interesting style and I kind of like it, which

I wouldn't have thought that I would. But, you

know, it's just eventually, as I said, as you

get as you age, you start to at least be more

open to. different things that you probably wouldn't

have liked as a younger man. And, you know, as

a, as somebody in their teens or early twenties

would probably railed against, because that's

what people in those ages often do. Whereas now

when I'm in my sixties, I go, just calm down,

give yourself another few years and you'll be

okay. You might, you still might not like it

and that's fine, but you know, you won't be,

you know, yelling at clouds. Yeah. Yeah, it reminds

me of, and even though I'm not there yet, I'm

not in my 60s yet, but you know who Jeff Dunham

is, right? Yeah. Okay, so it reminds me of Walter,

one of Jeff's characters. Damn kids with your

hipping and your hopping. Pull up your damn pants,

you morons. Like, you know, but again. when I

say that, I say that in fun and I say that because

it's like, you know, it's one of those things.

Why in my day, you know, it's one of those things

where, and my day with comics is only, but like

full time, there's only been since I started

this podcast in 2013. Like, you know, I've only

been knee deep or arms deep in comics for the

last nine and a half, 10 years, but I've tried

my best to, Not just read whatever is coming

out. Like I said, when we did the first Marvelous

March, it was not true. For the man who has everything

as Superman, what's the Captain America book?

It's, oh God, it's one of the Captain America,

but like Spider -Man Blue or Wolverine Origins,

you know, the Chris Claremont stuff. And, you

know, it's like, okay, I'm going to open myself

up to various things and some things I like,

some things I don't like, and that's okay. And,

you know, it'll all be all right. What? is your

favorite run of a series? So by this, I mean

something like, and I'm only going to use Batman

cause I only know Batman numbers, but something

like Batman five 15 to five, you know what I

mean? Like what's a, what's your favorite run

of a, you know, story run of a comic. Hmm. Well,

again, this is my age is showing because again,

silver age for the most part. And even, to some

extent in Bronze Age, what I'm most used to are

done in ones. What I like most from my childhood

is picking up an action or a Superman or a Batman

or whatever and reading two or sometimes three

stories in a single issue that were not in any

way generally related to each other, let alone

that were continued from one issue to another.

But even in the Silver Age, and this is a backup

strip in action, after Supergirl was introduced

in, I can't remember the number anymore, of action

comics, she was, for a long time, the backup

in action. you know, her own stories in action

comics. Superman was, you know, the main story,

but Supergirl had her own series. And they did

something that was quite unusual in those days

in that they did, they started at a certain point

to do connected stories. They weren't the kind

that are done nowadays or even that were done

in, say, the late Bronze Age. She would have

adventures that worked along a theme. If you

know the character, you know that in the early

days, she was basically Superman's secret weapon.

And she, you know, did all her super deeds in

secret until, you know, Superman was sure that

she knew how to use her powers and, you know,

all that kind of stuff. Right, right. There was

a series of stories. Basically, where you could

see her character progressing, where she started

out in an orphanage, you know, because, of course,

when your one and only relative from your exploded

planet comes to visit and live, you don't take

her in. You stick her in an orphanage because

that's what you do. So she was living in an orphanage.

Over the course of that, there were some stories

where people would come and try to adopt her

and she would sabotage the adoption process because,

you know, she didn't want anybody to adopt her

and then figure out that she was Supergirl. And

then she did eventually get adopted by the Danvers.

And in the beginning, she didn't let them know

that she was Supergirl. But then eventually.

Something happened. I think they were about to

be in a car wreck and she changed. She was in

the car with them as Linda Danvers and, you know,

got out and saved them. And they were nonplussed,

of course. And she was all upset because, you

know, Superman was going to be mad at her because

she revealed her secret identity. And he drops

in and says, no, no, no, this is fine. I was

I was coming to tell you anyway. You probably

should tell your parents. who you really are,

because my parents growing up knew who I was.

And then she went through a series of adventures

where he was going to reveal her existence to

the world, but she lost her powers, and then

she managed to get them back. But all these stories

formed a kind of long -running story arc, which,

as I said, was very unusual for the time. It

was one of those things that you really wanted

to make sure you got the next issue of action

so that you could see where it was going to go.

It was possible to miss because, you know, distribution

was terrible in those days. But you could make

up for it because they would often do a recap

at the beginning of a story to say, you know,

you might remember last issue when she did this

because they knew the distribution was terrible

and not everybody got every issue. But it was

just that was a fascinating thing. And if you

get I don't know if you have any of the archive

editions. Those are even when they were being

published originally, they were a little pricey.

But now they're ridiculous. But the volume two

of that of the Supergirl archives edition really

shows kind of that arc and that theme of the

storyline from those days. So that's kind of

cool. But as far as like, you know, things like

Court of Owls or, you know, any of that stuff,

I've sort of dipped in and out of those. But

there, you know, and I've been, you know, I've

read some of them and I like some of them and

didn't like some of them. And, you know, it's

just it's not my sort of, like I say, not my

sweet spot, really. I'm really a Silver Age guy

at heart. Yeah. I, again, you know, for me, if

I'm presented with two choices, I will pick one,

and I will stick with that one. And, like, for

me as a kid, and I've seen it, I've seen the

other one that I didn't choose, but, like, my

fandom is, my main 80s fandom is Transformers.

You present me with Transformers or G .I. Joe,

pick. Okay, giant robots from a robotic planet

come to Earth. That sounds better than, you know,

the military versus the bad guys. And I'm not

saying anything wrong with that. I'm just saying

I'm the type of person that if you put two things

in front of me and I choose something that, like,

biggest example I can give you, and I know I'm

pretty sure I've mentioned this on this podcast

before. In the year 2000, I was living in Biloxi,

Mississippi, and I went to... Books a Million

at the time, and the older lady clerk who was

blonde, her name was Angie, and she asked me

what I like reading. Well, by the year 2000,

I was reading like R .L. Stine. I was 20 years

old, but up until then, I was reading like R

.L. Stine, Fear Street, and John Grisham novels.

So she presented me with two choices. A boy wizard

or a former lingerie buyer turned bounty hunter.

At 20 years old, in the year 2000, do you know

which one I chose? I'm going with lingerie, but...

Wild guess. So, obviously, Boy Wizard, Harry

Potter, the former lingerie buyer turned bounty

hunter is Janet Ivanovich's Stephanie Plum novels.

And... I need to catch up with the Plum novels,

but ever since I've made that choice, I've never

regretted it. I've never had any... For me, it's

not about like or dislike when I don't know about

something or when I'm not interested in something.

I don't care. I don't care how good or bad Harry

Potter may be. I've never experienced it. And

honestly, I have no ambition to experience it.

Kind of thing. So, yeah, I mean, we all make

choices. Everybody's got stuff they like and

stuff that they either dislike or just are, you

know, empathetic about. So I don't care about

that. I'm not saying it's bad. It just doesn't

interest me. Absolutely. What is one comic you

can read over and over again, single issue or

trade? Oh, let's see. Over and over again. I

would probably have to say. The amazing story

of Superman Red and Superman Blue. Which, to

this day, I maintain that if they decided they

wanted to end the old continuity before the reboot,

before the Burn reboot, that I think that would

have been a better ending than whatever happened

to the Man of Tomorrow. Because it's basically

a wish fulfillment. Everything that you could

possibly, every good thing you could possibly

want for Superman happens in that story. He gets

to marry both Lois and Lana because he gets split

into two people. He gets to recreate the planet

of Krypton. He gets to repopulate it by enlarging

the bottle city of Kandor. on the recreated Krypton.

He gets one of, one of the two Superman created

in the story gets to go back to Krypton and live

out the rest of his life there. While the other

one remains on earth with the superpowers. Um,

he met, he manages to eliminate evil and crime

from earth. Um, he manages to, um, help, Actually,

I was going to say he helps Lex, but Lex Luthor

helps him to cure all diseases. And actually,

even Lex manages to regrow his hair. But it's

just it's, you know, and both versions of Superman

in their happily married lives end up, you know,

with family. They both have kids. It's just every

happy ending you could possibly want for Superman

you get in that comic. It is, as they say, an

imaginary story. I will not quote Alan Moore

on that because I think he's wrong about them

all being imaginary. No, they're not. Yeah, you

know, it's just one of those things where as

you're telling the story, as you're talking about

this, my first thought was, Oh, well, what if

the Superman clone from Superman 3 wasn't evil?

Oh, man. So we do have to ask some, I don't want

to, well, I'm just going to say negative things,

but not to be negative, but are there any comics

that you avoid altogether? You just look at it

and be like, nope, don't care, not for me, walk

away. Ooh, do you mean like a particular title

or a particular issue? Just, you know, whatever.

Like you go in the comic shop and you see new

issues of your favorite Superman title, your

favorite Batman title, your favorite this, favorite

that, favorite that, and then you see something

that you don't know about or something and you

look at it and you're like, yeah, I'm going to

avoid this one. I don't know. I would probably

say, and this is a bit unfair because I've never

actually read one of these, but pretty much anything

with the Punisher. Because I'm not big on the

concept of anti -hero. And, you know, I've read

stuff about Punisher and everything I've read

says to me, you wouldn't like that. So I would

have to say something like that. because that's

just not my cup of tea. Again, people like it,

good for them, but I don't think I would enjoy

it, so I just would leave it sit on the stand.

Cool, cool. Yeah, I mean, some of these are like,

you know, because again, you know, we all, like

we've been saying, everyone has likes and dislikes,

and, you know, for me, I'm not going, like, for

me, comics now, and it's been this way since

I started this podcast, Comics are all about

characters to me. Like, again, you take DC. I

have done exactly, I think, ever in the history

of this podcast, two episodes on Superman, and

we didn't even finish. It was a three -issue

story. We never finished it. We're going to finish

it eventually, but it was... Oh, the... Oh, God.

Frank Miller tried to Batman Superman. Not Unchained.

That was Snyder. It's Unbound, I think. Superman

Unbound. I don't remember. It was something where

it was one of those early DC dark black label

things where it was just three issues and my

buddy Joe and I were... I was kind of excited

to check it out because... all as I had ever

heard about Frank Miller and all as I've ever

read from Frank Miller is, Oh, I'm going to make

Batman dark, or I'm going to do this to Batman

or Batman's do it. Like, you know what? I respect

the man for working on what he's worked on, but

yikes, dude, so many Batmans, like literally,

like you mentioned John Byrne, John Byrne, obviously

synonymous with Superman, Frank Miller. It's

like, that's the first Batman comic name anyone

almost ever brings up. Cause He is who he is.

So how large or small is your physical comic

book collection? Oh, that's going to be very

disappointing to you. I imagine it's very, very

small. Oh, wow. It's just over the years. First

of all, I was I was never what I think of as

a collector. I would I was a reader. I get the

comics. I would read them. And if I really like

them, I would read them until they were basically.

Because I would just read them over and over

again. And if I didn't particularly like them,

I would often just give them away. Here, you

want to read these? I'm done with them. I do

have some physical comics, mainly through the

generosity of friends. I have a friend, one of

my former teaching colleagues, who goes to Comic

-Cons a lot in various different places. He knows

some of my taste. He knows, for example, that

I love Elliot S. Magan, and he knows that I love

the character of Superwoman that Magan created.

So he has gotten the creators, artists, and writers

to autograph copies of the DC Comics Presents

annuals that she appears in, which is very generous

of him, I think. Hopefully he's not going to

be listening to this because they're basically

sitting on a shelf and I don't really look at

them because I've read the stories and I know

them. And I have some old archive editions of

different collections that I like. But I don't

really have a lot because for the most part,

the comics that I love are still in my head.

Okay. What many people have told me is a freakish

memory. And if somebody describes a cover of

a comic that I read or a storyline, I will remember

very quickly and be able to tell the basic storyline

of the comic. I had one of my very closest friends

that I used to teach with. He was an English

teacher. We became very good friends in one.

Actually, I was driving him up to Philadelphia.

He had was coming up to interview someone for

a book that he was working on. And he knew I

knew how to get to where the interview was. So

I was like, I'll drive you. Sure. And somehow

we got talking about comic books. And he said,

there is a comic that I sort of remember. But

I'm not sure if it's a real comic or if I've

just made it up in my imagination. He said, here's

the cover. And he said, all I can remember is

the cover. I couldn't tell you the story. He

said, it's Batman carrying the body of Robin

on this alien planet with the red sun behind

him. As soon as he said that, I went, oh, Robin

dies at dawn. He goes, what? I said. That's Robin

Dies at Dawn. That's a real Batman comic. You

didn't make that up. That's a real comic. That's

a very evocative cover. If you read that comic

as a kid, you will always remember that cover

because it's just like startling. And then I

proceeded to tell him basically the story of

the, you know, that was in the comic. And I said,

sadly, the story is not as good as the cover.

The cover is terrific. The story is basically

a very. you know, run of the mill for its time,

sort of Batman kind of science fictiony story,

but it's not a real good story, but the comic

is terrific. The cover of the comic. And based

on that conversation, we became very good friends.

And, you know, we talk comic books a lot now.

So most of the comics that I read and care about

and love, I just keep in my head. Takes up a

lot less storage space that way. And that keeps

my wife happy. So, yeah, you're right. You're

absolutely right. Sometimes it's all about the

cover art and not the content of the book. Like

for me, like we obviously now live in an age

where everything is online and you can whatever.

Like I'm fine having a JPEG or a PNG photo file

of let's just. say, New 52 Nightwing Volume 1

or Volume 3, you know, whatever. Any of the Alex

Garner Batgirl covers, I'm fine just having JPEGs

of those because I can just look at them on my

computer and admire the art and whatever else.

I'm not saying that those Batgirl books are bad

at all. What I'm saying is... we now live in

an age where you're like, if you've already read

that comic and you're like, yeah, it's not so

good, but I still like to cover it. Then while

you can get the, you know, you can find the image

online or whatever else. So on that same line,

I actually skipped this question because I wasn't

sure how we were going to come around to it.

But now that you've said what you've said, are

there any comics in the past or currently that

you wish you had not read them? Ooh, well, this

is tough because just recently, John Wilson in

his Superman in Crisis podcast, where he's covering

Crisis on Infinite Earths and the related appearances

of Superman during that time period. He just

recently covered Crisis number seven, which you

may remember involves the death of Supergirl.

And even now, I regard that as the worst comic

book reading day of my life. Because I loved

the character of Supergirl. Right. And that was

like a kick in the stomach reading that. But

I can't say that I wish I hadn't read it. Because

that whole series, Crisis on Infinite Earths,

was such an important milestone. Even at the

time I was reading it. Because when you're reading

it as it's coming out monthly. Different books

are tying in. You don't entirely know what's

going on at any given moment or where the story

is going. And you certainly don't know where

it's going to end up. But you certainly know

at the time that this is a big deal. This is

an important series. You have to read this. So

I knew that. So I can't say I wish I hadn't read

that. On the other hand, there is a comic that

I read that often shows up on lists of best Superman

stories ever that I wish I hadn't read. It's

a two -issue one, and it's Whatever Happened

to the Man of Tomorrow, which I referenced earlier

when I said Superman Red, Superman Blue would

have been a better way to end the continuity

than that. Right, yeah. That story, to me...

is just almost unreadable because it is a totally

passive and ineffective Superman throughout almost

the entire story. For the most part, Superman

sits around, mopes, and does nothing while other

people are trying to do things, which to me,

that's not the Superman I want to see. You know,

I know people like that story, but for me, nah,

doesn't. And the fact that in the course of that

story, bad enough in crisis number seven that

I got to see Supergirl die. But in whatever happened

to the man of tomorrow, you pretty much get to

see almost everyone in Superman supporting cast

die. Yeah. Very few exceptions. I mean, you know,

Pete Ross, Lana Lang, Jimmy Olsen. Lex Luthor

crypto for crying out loud. You know, it's just,

it's an ineffective Superman and it's basically

just death after death after death, partly because

Superman's not doing it. Right. Yeah. So if I

could, if I could remove that from my memory,

I would gladly do it. I can't, but you know,

but that's a story I definitely wish I had never

read. Interesting. You just can't live without

it. Ooh. That's a tough one with modern technology

because... Well, yes, but... Yeah, you could

probably get any, you know, you could replace

just about anything, you know, would depend on

the cost, I suppose. Hmm. That would be difficult.

Probably... I guess just because of the... Because

of the attachment to the story and to the person

who gave it to me, I would probably get the two

DC Comics Presents annuals with Superwoman in

them that my friend Ted had gotten autographed

for me and gave me. But that's probably more

a sentimental choice just because of the gesture

rather than, you know, the quality of the story.

Just, you know, there's a connection there. Well,

yeah, I mean, if you're going to run back into

your burning house and you're going to save a

memory, it's going to be the one that matters

the most to you. Yeah, I would probably say that.

But again, you know, unless I get, you know,

unless I become, you know, an Alzheimer patient,

I still have pretty much all my comics in my

head. So I don't have to worry about them burning.

But yeah, that would probably be it. It's not.

So I was looking this up to see, and I'm pretty

sure what it is is you have a photographic memory,

but there are also other terms for you saying

you have your comics in your head. You can access

them fairly easily and remember the stories and

everything else. And I thought it was an eidetic

memory, but eidetic memory is only like you remember

it very clearly and vividly, but only for a little

while. I don't know. It is what it is. It's not

that, I have to say, because I've pondered this

question myself because some people have said,

well, you must have a photographic memory. I'm

like, no, absolutely not. Pretty much the opposite.

I said, I have no visual memory at all. I cannot

close my eyes and see things in my mind the way

apparently most people can. I basically encode

everything as sound. I can remember pretty much

anything I've ever heard if I work hard at remembering

it. I can remember conversations I've had decades

ago, but I can't see pictures in my head. When

I was very young, I discovered that this was

odd. When you haven't experienced all your life,

you don't think that's odd. You think that's

normal. But somehow my brother and I were talking

about something, my one older brother. And he

was talking about, well, picture such and such

in your mind. And I said, what are you talking

about? He said, well, you know, like, imagine

you can see this. And I said, well, you know,

you can't see things inside your head. That's

crazy. He's like, yeah, everybody does. I said,

no, that's called hallucinating. That means you're

crazy. If you can see things in your head, there's

something wrong with you because I can't do that.

And he said, well, when you think, how do you

think? I said, I hear my voice in my head. He

said, well, if you hear voices in your head,

you're crazy. So my brother, my brother cannot

remember, cannot. cannot hear things in his head.

He's an engineer. He's very visual. So to him,

everything is, what does it look like? And that's

how he remembers everything for me. And I know

this sounds weird for comic books, but everything

for me is what's the sound. And for me, when

I'm reading, whether it's a comic book or a novel

or a textbook or whatever, When I read, I hear

my own voice in my head as if I were narrating.

And that's how I remember things. Interesting.

So it's definitely not photographic. I often

describe it as phonographic because of the sound.

But I'm not sure how it is that somehow the sound

in my head also manages somehow to encode what

I saw. but I don't actually see it in my head.

I don't know how that works. Well, that's like

with me, like when I'm reading, like, you know,

depending on what style, but let's just say DC

animated universe style of, of, of a comic, like

when they did Batman beyond 2 .0, a couple of

number of years ago, like I hear Wilfred Dell's

Batman beyond in my head, as I'm reading the

character, I hear. When I see old Bruce, I hear

Kevin Conroy's voice in my head as I'm reading

the character because I know the person writing

that book, who was, again, Kyle Higgins, he loves

that series and that style and whatever, and

he was telling a certain story at the time. I

always hear they had, I don't know how many issues

it was supposed to be, but they had Batman 89

and Superman 78. They were supposed to be miniseries

or something or whatever. Well, Batman 89, you

show me a picture with that Batman font and how

Michael Keaton looked in that suit. Then when

I read that comic, I'm going to hear Michael

Keaton's voice in my head every time he talks

as Batman. Same thing with Superman 78. I'm going

to hear Christopher Reeve in my head kind of

thing. So, yeah, for me, everything is about

sound. It's all like podcasting. I'm an audio

podcaster. I don't need video. I don't need this.

Video makes it harder for me personally kind

of thing. And I've been doing audio for the last

14 years or so coming up on this December. So,

yeah, it's really all about sound. What was the

most money you spent on a comic or a comic item?

A comic item could be a Superman statue, a Green

Lantern ring, or a Green Lantern lantern or something

like that. Hmm. I'm, I'm incredibly cheap. So

I would really have to stretch for that. I mean,

I remember when I, I remember the days when comics

hit, you know, like a dollar and I was like,

this is insane. Cause I grew up when they were

for the most part, 12 cents. But I would probably.

Probably an archive edition because I did get

several of those over the years. And fortunately,

I got them at the time of their publication rather

than in the secondary market, which, again, is

outrageous for the most part, even when you can

find them. So I would think I'm trying to remember

how much they were when I was buying them. Probably

around 30 to 35 bucks, maybe. I mean, they were

expensive. but they're certainly high quality.

Yeah. But yeah, that's probably about the highest

I would ever have spent for anything like that.

Very cool. Very cool. Was there ever a moment

in your life where you were done with comics?

Like you just got so disinterested that you just

wanted to walk away? Ooh, well, let's see. After

I, I almost did after. Whatever happened to the

Man of Tomorrow? But I thought, well, they're

going to do this reboot. Let me see what it's

like. And I read Byrne's Man of Steel miniseries.

And I kind of liked it. It wasn't what I was

used to. You know, it's a very, very different

take from, you know, my silver and bronze Superman.

But clearly. They were done with that version

of Superman at that point, although he did have

some some things that were obviously taken from

that or adapted from those earlier continuities.

So I stuck with comics and particularly Superman

for maybe another 10 years, which. In retrospect,

might have been a little longer than I should

have. But so I went all the way. I went, you

know, through Burns time on Superman after Man

of Steel when he when he was writing the Superman

in action. And I went through that and I found

myself enjoying it less and less. And even after

he left that book, I was still reading it. But

I just was like. This is and I don't know if

it was just I was too stuck in what I had lost,

quote unquote, you know, with the old continuity

or if it was just my age, because probably by

the mid 90s, I was pretty much ready to go. Yeah,

I'm getting too old for this or I'm just not

enjoying it, because by that point I was in I

was about 40, which. You know, in those days

was probably a little on the old side to still

be reading comics on a regular basis. I don't

know. Probably younger people than I would still

be reading them at that age. But, you know, in

my mind, it was still a kind of a kid's entertainment.

So probably about the mid 90s, I was just like,

yeah, I think I'm done. I might occasionally

pick something up if I saw. a cover that looked

really interesting, but pretty much stopped until

I guess around the time when action 1000 came

out. Cause again, that was like a big deal. I

mean, I would stop in comic shops, all the, you

know, periodically just mainly looking at back

issue bins to see like, Hey, is there something

here that, you know, I want to reread from my

days. And I would look at, you know, whatever

was on the on the shelves. But when I knew that

when Action Comics 1000 is coming out, I'm like,

well, let me get that. So I did. And I kind of

liked it, but I wasn't entirely sure. So I thought,

well, I will see where this goes. So I stuck

with that for about a year with Brian Michael

Bendis. And but I even remember posting on Facebook

in those in those early days with Bendis. I said,

I'm you know, I read Action 1000 and I decided

I want to stick with this to see where it goes.

But this Brian Michael Bendis guy is on a short

leash with me. So we'll see where it goes, because,

again, probably because of my age and my formative

years. I'm not a huge fan of what they call the

decompressed storytelling. Yeah. It's like, you

know, I'm used to, I get three terrific stories

in one comic and now I'm not even getting one

story in five comics, you know? So, so I gave

that about a year and then I was like, nah, I'm

not enjoying this. I should stop because I can't

see hate reading it. Not that I hated it, but

I can't see reading it if I'm not enjoying it.

So I pretty much stopped. And I'm at the point

now where if I see something that looks interesting

or if somebody whose opinion I value says, hey,

maybe you'd like to read this, I will read it.

But I'm not reading anything regularly. The last

thing I read, and it was years after it was published,

was Milestone Comics Icon with basically their

alternate take on Superman, which I found fascinating.

I really loved that. But then that was kind of

it for a while. And then I saw that DC was...

doing an updated version of Icon called Icon

and Rocket. So I recently just finished reading

that miniseries, which I did not enjoy as much

as the original that I read. So we'll see if

I stick with that stuff again. But I'm kind of,

for the most part now, it's like I'm not reading

anything on a regular basis. But, you know, if

somebody says, hey, take a look at this, I might

pick it up. If I'm in the library, my local library

stocks graphic novels like crazy. I recently

read, there was a new, well, new to me, Mr. Miracle

graphic novel. That was a whole different take

on Mr. Miracle, and I enjoyed that. So I will

kind of browse their stacks and look at the graphic

novels and see what looks interesting. Yeah,

very cool, very cool. So, I know Superman is

your number one character, but how do you feel

about certain Batman stuff? The reason why I'm

saying this is because, have you read Sean Murphy's

White Knight Universe stuff? No, I haven't read

that. Okay. I think, I don't know, you may or

may not like it. The first one, White Knight,

and then Curse of the White Knight, and he's

currently doing Beyond the White Knight. So White

Knight was, I think he said it was like a political

thriller, and the second one was like supposed

to be some other kind of thriller, and this one

that he's doing now is supposed to be like a

psychological thriller. But if there's any comic

universe that I'm currently reading, It's his

because it's the most refreshing Batman universe.

It's not just, like, because he didn't know.

He put Todd as the first Robin. And then Grayson

as the second Robin. That's interesting. Yeah,

it's very cool. I highly suggest, if you're looking

for a different kind of Batman story, it's...

Very interesting. And he takes Joker and Jack.

They're the same guy, but it's the Jack persona

and the Joker persona. So, you know, it's very,

very cool. It's very, very fun. Heroes, heroines,

or villains? What archetypes are your go -to

reads? Probably not surprising, but pretty much

heroes. I mean, heroes and heroines, I think

of... as basically the same kind of thing. I

don't, you know, it's not like I'm going to go

girls are icky. I'm not reading this, you know,

um, but heroes, but you need villains too, because

it's hard to be heroic without, you know, some

sort of evil to, to, you know, fight against.

But I, I like heroes and I like, I like heroes

that are unambiguously heroes. I like heroes

that, to put it as I usually do, heroes who do

right for no other reason than because it's right.

That's the only motivation they need. I don't

need, for the most part, psychologically complex

heroes. I want heroes who see the right and do

the right. I mean, I get that not all heroes

are like that, especially the... several decades

long take on Batman of like, you know, he's psychologically

scarred by his parents' death. And so, you know,

that put him on his path. Again, I read a lot

of goofy science fiction Batman in the 60s. So,

you know, I'm also fine with a more cheerful

Batman. But yeah, I lean more toward the heroes

than certainly than villains. Although I... I

do have a grudging admiration for Lex Luthor,

I have to say. Yeah, I mean, so I took out part

of that question because you already stated that

you're not really an anti -hero person. So basically,

again, that question is about comic book archetypes.

And yes, heroes, heroines, they're all heroes.

They're all whatever. It's not necessarily saying,

do you prefer one over the other? Which one do

you go to the most kind of thing? And obviously

for you, it's all about Superman and Supergirl

and that whole universe. It's just one of those

things where I was, when I phrased that question,

I was trying to think of specific types of like

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern,

Green Arrow. They're all heroes. Supergirl. You

know, even superhero heroin is just, oh, it's

either a drug or it's a name for, you know, you

know what I mean? Like it's one of those things

where like male and female, they're opposite,

you know, whatever kind of things. And I was

trying to figure out Batman is not the same as,

say, somebody from an original graphic novel

that. may want to be a hero, but turns out to

be something like, I was trying to figure out

like examples of comic archetypes in between

heroes, heroines, antiheroes, and villains. Those

were the four that I, that I decided to use.

Well, I mean, there's, you know, I say with heroes,

there are, and I've heard people come up with

different sort of subcategories, but there's

like, you know, street level, street level heroes,

versus like, you know, global or cosmic heroes,

you know, like there's Spider -Man as opposed

to silver surfer, you know, like are both heroes,

but the kind of things that silver surfer does

and the kind of things that Spider -Man does

are completely different. Partly because of the

realms, partly because of their powers, but yeah,

you're not going to, you know, it's like, even

in the justice league, you've got like, you know,

green arrow, versus martian manhunter you know

like yeah there's a big difference between them

you know they're both absolutely yeah yeah i

mean there's always you know different levels

like you said and it's great that you know even

though i mentioned earlier about you know in

the justice league cartoon batman's like i'm

a part -timer he you know he also said Call me

when you need me and you will. You know what

I mean? So it's just one of those things where

Batman is the way Batman is. Superman's the Boy

Scout. Wonder Woman is this. I don't want to

say she's a lost little girl, but she's having

to explore man's world because she never, she

was always on Themyscira. So she's more of like

a learner type of thing. Green Arrow, very street

level. Like, you know, back at street level,

sort of sunny versus Batman street level where

Batman's all dark and brooding and, you know,

down here kind of thing. And it's just all fun.

And, I mean, some antiheroes can be fun. I just

think that some of them have such a history now

that it's like, hmm, should I really be reading

this? kind of thing, you know, I don't know.

Do you have a, my parents got rid of my comic

story? Oh, heavens. No, I can't imagine that.

Like I said, my, my mom basically fed my comic

book habit when I was very young, but you know,

until I started having money of my own and can

buy my own. But now I don't think my mom would

ever have gotten rid of my comics. Or books.

She was very big on let the kids read whatever

they want to read. We had, you know, we had an

old suitcase that basically was filled with comic

books all the time. And, you know, they would

get traded around to the neighborhood. But, you

know, we had bookshelves all over the place.

I think there were books in just about every

room of our house. So she was pretty big on reading.

And, you know, three of the six of us went to

college. I figured that worked out okay as far

as she was concerned. Hey, three out of six ain't

bad, apparently. Yeah, and I mean, that question

comes from my other podcast where I talk about

toy collecting. And it's, you know, do you have

a my parents got rid of my toys story? Because

I have one of those stories. And it's, you know,

it's more of. one of those types of moms that

doesn't know that you love like she knows you

love these but okay you have this entire batman

stack over here and you have this entire superman

stack on the opposite side of the room pick 10

of them to go in the yard sale you know what

you know what i mean like it's that kind of thing

where it's like oh crap my mom's having a yard

sale i gotta rush home grab my cape and protect

my comics That kind of thing. I do have my mom

got rid of a toy, but I don't have my mom got

rid of comic stories. Very cool, very cool. What

is one item from a comic book you'd love to have

in the real world? So something that can be just

pulled right out of the comic and it's in your

hand, like a Batarang or Superman's cape or Green

Lantern's ring or Green Lantern's, you know,

that kind of stuff. Ooh, let's see. My first

thought is a toss -up between Green Lantern's

ring or a Legion of Superheroes flight ring.

Now, let me try and think about that for a second.

I mean, the Green Lantern ring, obviously, you

can do a lot more with. You know, the flight

ring just lets you fly. The Green Lantern ring

lets you do that. So I guess I'd have to go with

Green Lantern, but it has to come with a power

back. Well, yeah, I mean, come on. Otherwise,

you know, 24 hours later, you're screwed. Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. You are screwed. Only takes

24 hours. All right. So if you could. So after

all your years reading comics and consuming comics.

Wow, I almost said costumes. If you could create

any comic storyline, what would you want to create

and what characters would you want to create

it with? So basically, you go into DC's offices,

you talk to the Jim Lees or the Jeff whatevers,

and they say, okay, you can do whatever you want

with these characters. Here's the keys to the

kingdom. What story would you want to do? Wow.

That would be tough. But I think, given my love

of Superman and my admiration for Lex Luthor,

I think I would have somebody do a story where

somehow... And I would leave this up to the writer

because I'm not a writer and I don't even know

how you would do it. But somehow Superman and

Lex Luthor become good friends again. Really,

like not a trick, not a dream, not an imaginary

story, none of that. They really become friends.

And they go on adventures together, either fighting

crime because. If you've got Lex Luthor as a

good guy now, he certainly has the knowledge

of crime and criminals. And he's got, you know,

if he's working with Superman on his side, imagine

what they could do. But it doesn't have to be

just crime fighting. Like they could go explore

space. They could, you know, between Luthor's

genius and Superman, whatever kind of lab Superman

has in his fortress of solitude. They could come

up with some of the most amazing things, I'm

sure. I think I'd like to see something like

that. Maybe even just make it a little miniseries

where they go on a kind of super road trip, whether

it's around the world and get involved in all

sorts of adventures and hijinks, or they go across

the galaxy. Superman and Lex Luthor as good friend.

Very cool, very cool. Yeah, that would be awesome.

It would have to be completely out of continuity.

Well, I mean, yeah. That takes Lex Luthor off

the table as a villainous character. Yeah, it

would definitely have to be Elseworlds or in

some other, like, it would have to be, so Sean

Gordon Murphy has his Batman White Knight universe.

You know, it would have to be him going from

Batman to Superman and him creating his own Superman

universe kind of thing, yeah. I would read that,

and I would hope I wouldn't be the only one who

would. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a promising,

you know, thing. So who is your favorite voice

actor who plays Lex, and who is your favorite

live -action actor who plays Lex? Hmm. That is

tough. I really, as far as live action, I really

like Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville. I think

he was a really good Lex. It's not, you know,

he's not the kind of Lex I quite grew up with,

but I really enjoyed him as that character. Part

of me really enjoys, and again, this is way before

your time, but you may know it, Lyle Talbot as

Lex Luthor in the Kirk Allen serials. No, I've

never seen those. He was very much the image

of the... golden age lex luthor as the mad scientist

in the white lab coat and bald and heavy set

and that's to me that's what lex luthor should

look like for the most part so as far as live

action i'd have to go with i'd probably go with

rosenbaum just because i he's i thought he was

really good and he obviously had a longer tenure

as the character then Yeah, 10 -year run. Yeah,

he has the longest run, yeah. I mean, outside,

well, 96 to 2004, what is that, almost eight

years? So if you count, and again, I'm counting

animation, but just overall, an actor who has

done Lex, yes, Rosenbaum from 2001 to 2011. The

second longest would be Clancy Brown voicing

him in the DC Animated Universe because he started

in Superman and he ended in Justice League or

Justice League Unlimited. I forget which one.

And as far as voice actor, I think I would have

to go with Clancy Brown. I think he had just

the vocal quality that was just, he had that

kind of smarmy evil. about him that, you know,

that's Lex Luthor. Like, you know, he just has

such disdain for pretty much everybody because

he thinks everybody is beneath him. And that

really comes through with, with Clancy. Oh, absolutely.

It does. Yeah. He's yeah. Clancy is amazing.

Okay. Okay. I'm trapped in a building full of

supervillains. I've lost my powers and for some

reason this creepy hot chick thinks I'm... Lex

Luthor. Aw, that is just wrong. Cripes. This

is life or death. I'd better call for backup.

Ow! Duh. Lex, you alright? I'm fine. No service.

Man. Are we doing this or what? I told him you

want to be alone. We're supposed to be going

over your big plan. We are still pulling the

job, right? Or was the whole thing just a bluff?

Huh? I mean, right. The big plan. I'm all over

the big plan. So let's go do that. What? You

gonna wash your hands? No, because I'm evil.

For me, if I was picking Lex's... I mean, Clancy

Brown, hands down animated. There's no other

animated Lex that has done it better. But live

action? Man, I am torn between Rosenbaum and

John Che. John Che from Lois and Clark? Oh, man.

He was so... Again, you look at that cast, Terry

Hatcher, Perry, I almost said Perry White, Terry

Hatcher, Lane Smith as Perry White, you know,

and it's so funny when I see Shane now or when

I see him in, like, obviously, Lois and Clark,

New Adventures of Superman is what I know him

from the most, but, like, he's popped up in several

Law & Order episodes, and I'm just like, what's

Lex Luthor doing? Talking to Lenny Briscoe. Wait

a minute. What kind of weird – like did Michael

Bailey finally – I don't know. It's just one

of those things where any actor, it doesn't matter

who – like when – and I'm not – I need to rediscover

it. But I was never the biggest fan of Batman,

Brave and the Bold because I'm not really a big

fan of – bright, shiny Batman. I'm not a big

fan of super dark Batman either. I like a nice

balance between the two. But when they did the

episode of Batman of Zoranar, and as most people

know, Diedrich Bader is the voice of Batman in

Batman the Brave and the Bold, they went to Zoranar,

and Zoranar, I'm like, holy crap, it's Kevin

Conroy! That's amazing! You know, that kind of

thing. It's like, holy crap! You know, just out

of the, you know, from Batman the Animated Series

to Superman to this to that, Justice League and

all, it's just so fun. Well, be careful. You

might turn into Michael Bailey. You know, it

all comes back to Superman. You know, I actively

try my best. So Michael and I like a lot of the

same things, sort of. I need to discover Superman

for myself. Like I said, I looked it up earlier

when you were telling one of your stories. I

put myself on mute and I looked it up. The three

-issue DC Black Label series that Frank Miller

did was from 2019. It was Superman Year One.

So he was basically telling a year one story

of how, you know, Superman, blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah. I got to the second issue and I'm

just like, yeah, I'm not into this. And then

I looked at the solicits at the time for the,

oh, they're bringing Batman and Wonder Woman.

And wait a minute, I thought this was Superman

year one, not Justice League year one or, you

know, the Holy Trinity of comics year one kind

of thing. So yeah, Michael and I, between Superman

stuff and Law & Order, we both love Cold Case,

the CBS series Cold Case. Yeah, Michael's awesome.

I had him on a number of years ago. I'm trying

to get him to do an audiobook episode of one

of my other shows to talk about audiobooks. One

of these days we'll get around to that. What

is one piece of advice you would give the comics

fandom? Probably chill out. It's just, you probably

see it as much as I do. There's the blame wars

on, you know, whatever, you know, pick your social

media site. I'm pretty much only on Facebook,

but I see enough of it there. And I imagine it's

probably just as bad on Twitter or whatever else.

But I just want to say, you know, life is too

short to get this angry at somebody else. for

their opinion about a fictional character. I

mean, I love these fictional characters as much

as anybody. And there are things I like and there

are things I don't like. And if you like something

I don't like, that's fine. You're allowed. You

know, I don't have to argue with you that you're

wrong in your opinion. I mean, I guess some of

that's an age thing. Like I said, it seems to

me it seems to be people at certain ages of their

lives will more likely engage in that kind of

behavior. And I probably did it myself because

I think back to my early teaching years when

I would get really worked up about things. And

my then department head, who was much older and

wiser and calmer, he would just look at me and

say. De gustibus non est disputandum, which is

Latin, meaning in matters of opinion, there is

no disputing. And like, you got to think about

that. It's an opinion. Somebody else's opinion

is just as good as yours. It's not a fact. It's

an opinion. I like this. You like that. We can

both enjoy what we enjoy. So I wish more people

would really take that idea to heart. Because

there's really there's no point to saying, you

know, oh, I mean, there are stories I don't like.

You know, you heard me talk about the fact that

I don't like whatever happened to the man of

tomorrow. But if there are people who like it,

good for them. You know, I don't I'm not going

to read it again. And I'm probably never going

to be convinced that it's a good story. But that's

my opinion. And if somebody else likes it, good

for you. Go enjoy it. Have fun. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, look, we, you know, the reason, so that

question is at the end of every GCRN Origins

podcast, because whether it's comics, toys, Transformers,

Masters of the Universe, podcasting, like, what

is the one piece of advice you would give? And

most everyone says, chill out, calm the fuck

down, whatever it is, you know, like. Like, seriously,

like you said, these are fiction. Like, really,

seriously, it's like Jay and Silent Bob from

2001 when they go see Holden McNeil and Holden's

like, these are fictional characters. You know,

it's what it is. I mean, you know, I don't know.

Can't we all just get along, please? So, yeah.

Well, this has been awesome. We're going to go

to a quick ad break. I'll insert some ads in

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we'll come back to get Dave's final thoughts

and close the show after this. Hello, all sentient

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.com. On the Simplistic Reviews podcast, we talk

movies. We talk TV. We talk. Hello, Julie, what

the heck are you doing? Trying to make our spot

sound more exciting by adding explosions. Yeah,

I'm pretty sure you could have got the point

across with sound effects, not the real thing.

Download this show on iTunes or at simplisticreviews

.blogspot .com. I'm sure your insurance company

will cover that. No, they won't. No, they probably

won't. What makes you think you can kill Superman

when you can't even handle a mere mortal in a

Halloween costume? There's nothing mere about

that mortal. Besides, I've read up on your flyboy.

I know his weakness. See? Solid kryptonite. You

know I can't be connected to this in any way.

Oh, you'll be Mr. Clean. I promise. Deal? Deal.

We are back here inside the pull bag. There's

plenty of room in here, folks. If you want to

come talk to me and get your comic reading origins

on the air, let me know. Thank you for joining

us inside the pull bag. But before we do that.

Dave, do you have any final thoughts, any parting

advice, anything you want to say to the comic

reading public that may be listening to this?

Well, like I said before with Chill Out, I would

say, you know, find what you like and enjoy it.

And if there's stuff you don't like, just leave

it be and don't get into arguments with people.

I will also thank you for giving me something

to think about, and maybe I'm going to go seek

out this White Knight storyline and see where

that leads me. I always like finding out something

that I hadn't known about or thought about. That's

something that sounds intriguing to me. Yeah,

it's very different. It's very interesting. Sean

is a big 89 animated series fan. So every time,

most of the time you see the Batmobile in the

books, it's either going to be 89 or animated,

or it might be his own design, like his own unique

design that he has. Because he's a writer -artist.

I mean, that's a one -two punch. So he's doing

this all himself, and it's just... It's just

a fun read. I think as of this recording, because

we have not done... So he has White Knight, Curse

of the White Knight, which are the first two

arcs in the series. He has White Knight Presents

Von Freeze, which is the story about Mr. Freeze,

which that is very interesting. And then he has

White Knight Presents Harley Quinn, which is

the next thing we have to do here in the podcast.

And then currently he's doing Beyond the White

Knight. where he brings Batman Beyond into the

universe and does all kinds of cool stuff with

that. Right now, we just got issue four out of

eight. So, yeah, it's fun. I will shoot you some

links after the show so you can check that out.

So, as I said, thank you for joining us inside

the pull bag, folks. If you'd like to get in

contact with us, leave feedback for the show.

There are some ways to do so. Visit the website

geekcastradio .com where you can comment and

listen to all of our content. Send us an email

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please. Spotify, and any other podcatching client

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at ThePullBag. I am at TFG1Mike. Dave, as far

as I know, is not on Twitter, and that's okay.

But, you know, how are you? I want people to

be able to interact with you if they listen to

this and they want to say hey to you or whatever.

do you want to give your Facebook out or no?

Some people guard their Facebooks because they're

like, yeah, I just want to only have these people.

No, it's Dave McElvenny on Facebook. If anybody

wants to look me up, they can find me. All right,

very cool, very cool. So speaking of Facebook,

we are at the Geekcast Radio Network. For the

overall network page and at the pull bag on Facebook

as well, please go like the pages. Join us for

the next month or so when we, like I said, we're

four episodes away. Well, technically three episodes

away until we get to 500, but the next four episodes,

I need Comic Origin guests because I've got two

guest spots for 497 and 98, and then... I promised,

and she's, I don't know if we're even going to

do this. We better be able to do this. But I

was recording with Bethany at one point, Bethany

Kessler from Superman The Lowest Taste with Michael

Bailey. I was recording her origins, and she

said something about her unpopular comic opinions.

And I immediately said, okay, I know what episode

499 of the podcast is going to be. Well, that's

coming up. So we need to get that recorded at

some point. And episode 500, basically my mentor,

the person who helped me out initially with setting

up, getting podcasting going in mid -2007 throughout

2008, Michael David Sims of at earth -2 .net.

He's another one of those guys, kind of like

you, where... Like you were telling the story

earlier about the Batman and Robin comic and

how you remember what happened. He's one of those

guys where you can say Batman 439 or Batman 571

or whatever, and he'll immediately be like, oh,

it was this story, it was that story. So he's

another one of those types of people. So yeah,

folks, we are on our way to 500 episodes, and

it's going to be fun and awesome, as always,

here inside the Pull Bag. For now, I am TFG1

Mike with... Dave McElvenny. As always, make

your great escape into comics and jump inside

the pool bag today. Thanks, Mike. Call the clown.

I need one last meeting. How could you have lied

to me like that? Now I never actually said I

wasn't Batman. Ow! You want to know what really

galls me? I mean, beside the fact that the new

man in my life is really two men, it's that I'm

sitting on the hottest story of the year, Batman,

unmasked, and there's not a blessed thing I can

do about it. Then you really do love me. I'll

get some iodine for that scrape. Burning, stinging

iodine. I see she's taking it well. It's ironic,

you know. She likes Bruce Wayne and she likes

Superman. It's the other two guys she's not crazy

about. Too bad we can't mix and match. I'm not

used to being rescued. Thanks. I owed you one.

That robot tonight. It came from LexCorp. I can

prove it. That's why I'm here. I figured you

might want to help me bring Luthor in. A partnership?

You're joking. Be sure to leave us feedback.

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time, make your great escape into comics and

unleash the geek in you. Let me guess, you're

the only one here. How do I contact Superman?

He's out at sea. Never around when you need him.