Interview with Ellis Rovin on Audio Production!

Hey, it's your friendly neighborhood Spider -Man

here, and I'm swinging by the Geekcast Radio

Network. Boom. No, you sound like me before we

shoot away for thank you. You're the first person

a long time that's laughed at that I I have been

doing that for years or I usually just slap myself

But lately I've just been adding in the owl at

the end. So it's like Thank you There is nothing

wrong with your podcast player do not attempt

to adjust the volume hello and welcome to studio

2009 I am of course TFU on mic and for our latest

podcast approach in this new year. Yes, folks,

we are in January of 2023. Happy new year to

everybody. Here's hoping 2023 is better than

the last year that we had. But today for podcast

approach, I welcome Mr. Ellis Rovin. Ellis is

a professor of audio and in creating sounds for

clients, he tailors each sound to its fullest

and giving every project he works on a unique

sonic character. Ellis is also the audio man

for MKBHD and the waveform podcast. Ellis, you've

been rehearsing real hard now. So Santa's gonna

bring you a new saxophone, baby. Oh, my God.

Wow, you really did your research. Okay. As soon

as I read that, I'm like, wait a minute, didn't

Bruce Springsteen say that in Santa Claus is

coming into like, tie, tie that in. There you

go. I can't think of like anywhere. on anywhere

that it says I play saxophone. So nice. It's

in your bio. It's either in your bio or on your

linked. Yeah. It's in one of them. I guess I

need to update it. It's okay. But yes, Ellis

is here and I have been listening to when he

is off and on on the MKBHD waveform podcast with

Marques Brownlee and Andrew Maganelli and David

Amell and Adam, what is Adam's last name? Adam

Molina. Yeah. Molina. Yeah. He's the quiet one.

And we are here to talk about podcasts listening

and producing. But another reason why we are

also here is because in one of the episodes,

You had strong opinions on the microphone lawsuit

that somebody was doing or something or other.

And you got to talking about sound and, and vision

and all that stuff. So you want to, you want

to go ahead and take it away with your spiel?

Ah, sure. Yeah. Um, you know, without getting

too into the nitty gritty of this ridiculous,

all these claims people are making about AirPods

and digging through legal history and stuff like

that. You know, I brought up this point on the

show about how audio and listening is such a

subjective experience compared to seeing, you

know, it's very easy to see something with your

eyes and know exactly what you're looking at

and have this sort of objective experience with

it. Whereas when you're listening, Wow, already

doing so many ups. When you're listening, your

ears and what you hear is informed by all of

your other senses. And it's really important

when you're listening to try and isolate your

hearing as much as possible and try to listen

as objectively and overcome this very human part

of listening where everything changes. And I

didn't mention this on the show, but something

I feel really strongly about that separates sound

from the rest of our senses is that sound is

inherently ephemeral, right? Like we can record

a sound and then we have that recorded forever.

But the sound is either playing or it's not playing.

And when it's not playing, all we have is our

memory. And as I'm sure we all know, human memory

is not the most accurate thing ever. And it allows

sound to live in this weird sort of meta space

where it is influenced by our feelings, and it's

influenced by our surroundings, and it's influenced

by our opinions. And so on the show, people were

talking about, I guess I'll get a little bit

into it. People were talking about their AirPods

getting worse. And this website published these

graphs about how they found that in the lower

frequency ranges, like around 200 to 300 hertz,

I think, the AirPods they found were canceling

less noise. And this is very unscientific. But

I was just looking at the graphs and the difference

in this one frequency band was something like

a few decibels, maybe four, maybe five. And if

you're an audio professional listening on a professional

system, yeah, four to five decibels can be a

lot. But if you're the average listener listening

on your phone speakers or listening on not good

headphones or anything like that, four to five

decibels is really hard to discern. And so yeah,

I just I just found all these, you know, people

love to jump all over Apple. People always want

to catch Apple in the act. And I just I found

it just like, I don't know. Use your ears, guys.

Like, listen a little harder, maybe. I don't

know. But yeah, that's that was the thing that

caught your attention, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Use

your ears, people, not your ass. Yeah, I'm going

to use that. That's good. Or do you watch Captain

Disillusion? Do you watch that channel at all?

No, I would have to check that out. He has this

saying where he says like, love with your heart

and use your brain for everything else. And I

feel like the same could be said about audio.

It's like listen with your ears and use your

brain for everything else. Yep. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, no, because I heard your thing about the

eyesight and I'm like, right, okay, sure. That's

not my case. My case is when I was a kid, when

I was in elementary school back in the eighties.

Yes. Yes, folks. I know I'm old, but when I was

in fourth, fifth and sixth grade, so that would

have been 90 to 92. Gotcha. I was used as the

end of the day computer kid. And what that meant

was the teachers were like, okay, Mike, go around

to all the classrooms. and listen to see if any

of the apples are still running. And if they

are, shut them down. I could hear the hum. Nobody

else could hear the hum of the fans or whatever

the hell was in the old Apple IICs and Apple

IIEs. I could hear it because my eyesight and

my legally blindness was so bad. You know, you

know, they always say When one senses is screwed

up, the other sense is confident. You said some

of the show, the other sense is compensate for

it. Well, my hearing has compensated for it.

Even though now I use some JVC, HX, whatever

headphones and I Blair rock music in them to

make myself deaf, but that's just me. I so I

worked for I still work for this organization

called the National Center for Choreography.

They're a dance organization that supports creators

in Akron, Ohio. And they invited me to be part

of this really cool thing called radio camp one

year, which is sort of like a symposium for people

who make podcasts and people who want to make

podcasts. And I was on this really, really great

panel with Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I can't

remember her name. If it comes to me, I'll double

back. But she specializes in turning dance performances

and dance films into accessible media for people

with visual impairments. As part of this symposium,

she played a dance film with the accessibility

narration over it. And before we did it, I remember

thinking, Oh, I've got great ears. I'm a professional

listener. This is going to be crazy. It's going

to be easy in a kickwalk. I watched this three

-minute dance film and all the information was

coming at me so fast. I felt like the film ended

and I missed all of it. I told that to her. I

was like, that was crazy. I feel like I'm a professional

listener and I couldn't make heads or tails of

that. She brought up a really good point. She

was like, you you can see. So you're inherently

processing two streams of information at once.

When you only have to process that single stream,

you can just decode audio information at this

amazing rate. It's like, dang, that's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That is so cool. And

for me, I don't, I consume content for podcasting

about said content. So if I need to watch a show

or if I need to watch a movie or if I need to

watch a cartoon, I'll watch it and see it and

pay attention to it. But anytime when I'm not

doing that or when I'm just having whatever on

my phone, I more so just listen to it. Like I

don't sit there and watch it. I just listened

to it. And that's all I'd like half the time

I'm going to sleep to forensic files every night.

I was like, why are you going to sleep to murder?

I said, it's not about the murder part. It's

about the fact that may the man rest in peace.

He's been gone a number of years now with the,

the narrator, Peter Thomas has an amazing voice.

He does. Oh my God. You're sorry. Cause I used

to fall asleep listening to that show too. Literally

same exact thing. I wouldn't watch it. I would

just be listening. And it's not only does he

have an amazing voice, but he has this steady

calm rhythm. It's so rhythmic. It's such, if

you just sort of ignore all the gruesome bits.

It's this beautiful, steady, almost meditative

thing to fall asleep to. That's amazing. Absolutely.

The only problem I have, and I've tried to reach

out to the company, the production company that

has the rights to Forensic Files, the volume

on the episodes, every TV, every phone, every...

I could be watching it on an iPod Classic from

2000 whatever. He'll be loud and the people will

be soft or he'll be soft and the people will

be loud It's not the volume on my devices. It's

not the volume on my television. It's something

in the audio that happened with that show that

It up. Yeah. Yeah, just it's not a good mix,

huh? No, you know, I've never noticed that but

now I'm gonna go back and totally check it out

at the Dallas pistol and revolver club in 1991

Trey Cooley, a young spectator, was watching

a shooting competition seated behind an air gun

range. He was struck and killed by a stray bullet.

This is how ballistics, lasers and forensic animation

solved the riddle of the magic bullet. You know,

my dad is also an audio person. And I have him

to thank a lot for sort of, you know, he didn't

necessarily show me the ropes and get me in the

biz or anything like that. But we just had lots

of conversations about sound when I was growing

up. And last night we were watching, I don't

remember what movie it was, but we were, it was,

it was a musical and one of the characters was

singing and we looked at each other and said,

that snare drum is so loud. It both stood out

to us immediately. Why is the snare drum as loud

or louder than the vocalist right now? This makes

no sense. It was literally six seconds of movie.

The funny thing is after that happened, I got

really self -conscious because I was like, how

many audio people listen to my work and go, why

is that so loud? Why is that like that? I'm like,

oh man, I hope it's all perfect. I can say from

listening to the waveform podcast that very rarely

do I notice differences in the mix of the voices

or the leveling. You guys do an amazing job of

getting that. Oh, sorry. No, go for it. You guys

do an amazing job getting that audio leveled.

And if there's anything wrong with the audio

that I notice. it's most likely something happened

and we forgot to like, I remember I tweeted because

I usually end up taking a screenshot every time

I listen to like, Oh, hey guys, I'm listening

to the show. And you know, the ads aren't in

here where they're supposed to be. I kind of

like this. This is kind of cool. I understand

why the ads are there. That's fine. I'm not saying

I'm not trying to say anything against that.

I'm just saying that one episode I was like,

wait, there's no ads. This is silent. What's

going on here? And I thank God you do because

I mean, someone hopefully will tweet on us. But

yeah, they should. I'm all about like interacting

with the podcasts that I listen to. And if they

interact back, that's great. If they don't, that's

fine, too. Whatever. You know, Andrew usually

likes most of the tweets or sometimes he'll reply

and all that. So, you know, what were you going

to say, though? I'm trying to remember. I guess

mostly, you know, I'm very lucky that everyone

on the show is really, really professional in

the sense that they all have really level speaking

voices that they're all really, really good at.

at making my job of leveling them out really,

really easy. And on that show, you know, actually,

like the harder things to deal with are things

like room reflections. Actually, that's like

the to me on the waveform podcast, that was like

my room reflections and mouth. all those noises.

Those were like public enemy number one for me

when I joined the show because the room is treated,

but it's still a small room and the mics are

really close together. And I don't know if you've

caught this or maybe some eagle -eyed people

have caught this, but David and the producer

table and Andrew all use SM7Bs, like the classic

radio mic. And Marquez uses a revision of the

RE -20 that I believe is called the RE -35 RV,

but I can't remember the exact number. But it's

essentially like the broadcast version of the

RE -20. Colin Cowherd uses it on his show as

well, if you watch sports. And that mic is really,

really, really sensitive. It's really sensitive.

And so all of this sort of phase stuff begins

to happen as Andrew's voice gets picked up in

Marquez's mic. Yeah, and so I've had to do a

lot of sort of creative creative workarounds

to balance them out because I don't really like

using and I hope I'm not boring any non audio

people listening, but I don't really like using

noise gates very much. I don't know if that's

a generational audio person thing. Um, because

I know a lot of older audio people that reach

for the noise gate really, really quick, but

it's just not really my favorite tool. Um, so

yeah, I've had to come up with some more creative

solutions. Do you guys, I'm not, this isn't about

the, you know, your all's podcast. This is about

you eventually, but it's one of those things

where do you guys record on multitrack? Yes,

we do. Okay, good. Yeah, we do record multi -track.

If we didn't record multi -track, I would be

pulling my hair out. That being said, the tools

are getting scary good. They really are. There's

a few... plugins on the market that are specifically

designed to remove reverb and some of them can

remove early reflections. And that won't necessarily

solve your phase -y problems, but it'll bring

everything a little closer the way it sounds.

And then there are some plugins that actually

can semi -resolve phase issues. I don't know

if you've ever used OEK Soothe 2? I haven't,

no. That plugin does some wacky things as far

as just fixing your comb filtering and all that.

So yeah, the tools are getting scary good. Well,

that's good. We need scary good audio tools.

Yeah, I completely agree. Yes. Audio rules, video

drools. Sorry. All right. When did you discover

podcasts and what was the first one you listened

to? Oh, awesome question. Okay. I discovered

podcasts in about probably eighth grade. And

at the time, I loved Rooster Teeth. Rooster Teeth

and Red vs. Blue and Achievement Hunter and all

that stuff was like the coolest thing in the

whole world for me. And so they had a podcast,

the Rooster Teeth podcast, and I listened to

that every single day. And then there was a sort

of a spinoff podcast called The Internet Box

that I also just like loved to death. And I had

this kind of weird relationship with podcasting

growing up because I was in this really serious

music program. And I was practicing saxophone

hours every day. And there was no doubt in my

mind that I was going to be a professional saxophone

player. That was like my whole life. And I would

get these pangs of guilt. because such a big

part of learning an instrument is listening to

recordings of other people playing the instrument

and copying them and sort of inducting their

skills into your repertoire. I would spend a

lot more time, not a lot more time, but I would

spend a lot of time listening to podcasts instead

of listening to other saxophone players. I'd

have this voice in my head being like, Ellis,

you need to stop listening to these silly podcasts

and start listening to saxophone. These podcasts

aren't going to make you any money in life. I

could not have been more wrong. I literally could

not have been more wrong. That was how I got

started. From there, NPR was really... I grew

up in LA, so I was in the car all the time. I

just destroyed NPR. One of my favorite... I can't

remember if this was on NPR or another station,

but have you ever heard of Prairie Home Companion?

Oh man. Prayer Room Companion is this long -running

radio show. It ended maybe 15 years ago. It's

this fictional news broadcast from a fictional

town in sort of like Oklahoma -y where all these

sort of creepy weird things go on. It was run

by a guy named Garrison Keeler. If you ever get

the chance, it's a really, really, really fun

program. It's done in sort of this classic radio

way. where there's garrison narrating and instead

of a sound board, they have a guy with a microphone

and he's making all the sound effects live. He

has props and he can do stuff with his mouth

and everything's just happening in real time.

The energy is so cool. Anyway, that is all to

say that those are sort of my earliest experiences

with podcasting. Very cool. Very cool. How long

after you started listening, did you want to

start your own podcast? Never. It literally never

occurred to me once. What happened is I was in

college and I was in music school. At the time,

I was working as a recording engineer in this

rap hip hop studio. I was going to the studio

every day and I was just churning out rap tracks

for random artists. I was in college and I had

this class, this really great class called creative

fundamental business fundamentals for the creative

economy. That's what the class is called. And

we had to put together a business plan for that

class. And I put together a business plan about

being sort of like an audio guy, just sort of

a general audio guy. And my professor in that

class was this woman named Jen Edwards, who is

this unbelievably talented creative director

branding consultant person. And so she reviewed

my business plan. and thought it was really good.

She was like, oh yeah, it seems like a great

business plan. And then she got a contract for

a company called Jacob's Pillow. And Jacob's

Pillow is one of the oldest dance festivals in

the country. It's the sort of like cultural heritage

site at this point in America. And Jacob's Pillow

reached out to her to help them make a podcast.

And she was a branding person and a creative

director, but she was not an audio person. And

she had just read my business plan. So she actually

tapped me while I was still in college to go

help produce that show. And that was the first

time I'd ever worked in podcasting my whole life.

That was like I was diving in fresh. And at the

time, I was pretty sure I wanted to be a professional

composer. Like I wanted to score films and I

wanted to write music for like stuff like that.

And so I worked out this deal with her. I said,

I'll I'll produce an edit and mix and master.

the show if you also let me write the music.

And she was like, cool. And so that was kind

of my first dive in. And then I got super duper

lucky. And I hate saying this because it makes

me sound like a big jerk. But the pandemic was

really, really good for me, because I had this

one show with a big organization under my belt.

And all of these big performing arts orgs They

all are grant funded. Right. And the deal with

grant funding is at the end of the grant period,

all of that money needs to be spent. Otherwise,

it's really hard to ask for the same amount of

money next year. And so the pandemic hit and

all of these organizations canceled their programming

and they had all this money left over that they

literally needed to spend. And so I was able

to go to a bunch of them and say, Hey, I know

you have money. give it to me and I'll make you

a podcast. And that's awesome. It was and I kind

of earned this reputation as the dance podcast

guy because I was working for a lot of these

sort of dance organizations. And, and, and yeah,

so that that's kind of how I got into it. But

never in never once was I like, oh, I'm gonna

start a podcast or I think I want to go into

podcasting or I see a future for myself in podcasting.

It was very much something I fell backwards into.

Very cool. Thank you. So you mentioned several

of the ones you've worked on and several of the

ones. First of all, what goes into a dance podcast?

Like a dance podcast? I'm like, you just tap,

tap, tappity, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. Every

single person who I tell that to ask me that

same question. I'm sorry. No, it's a legit question.

a lot of them focus on on dance history or dance

theory or talking to artists. So we did this

show called inside the inside the dancers studio,

where different choreographers would get interviewed

with sort of like a standard series of questions.

The the Jacobs pillow podcast was really the

one that I had a lot of fun doing. And that was

so Jacobs pillow actually maintains the country's

most thorough dance archives. They have everything

from recordings of talks to recordings of performances

to recordings of or to like physical things like

costumes, programs. It's like this an unbelievably

thorough archives. And so that show was about

digging through their archives and bringing these

archival materials to life in the form of an

audio program. And that one was really, really

challenging because a lot of these archive, a

lot of these materials were not either either

not. I don't want this isn't gonna sound like

I'm dragging the archivist at the pillow, which

I'm not. Norton Owen, the archivist of the pillow

is like America. It's like a gift to America

that we have this guy who's so dedicated to preserving

this stuff. He's amazing. A lot of it, though,

was recorded. in not the best techniques or not

the best circumstances. Or it was recorded on

tape and then before Norton got there, the tape

wasn't stored properly. And there's all these

things that could have happened. So a lot of

the time I'm getting these materials in rough,

rough condition. And so a big part of my job

there was sort of like audio rehab or like forensic

audio or whatever you want to call it. And I

think, yeah, that's been a big part of my podcasting

journey is just learning how to take a recording

that is buried in noise and distorted to all

hell and how do you actually make this, not only

do how do you make it listenable, right? But

if you take one of these recordings that is completely

dilapidated. and you try to bring it back to

full health, it doesn't sound believable anymore

because your brain knows this is an old recording

and your brain knows what an old recording is

supposed to sound like. If it sounds like a fresh,

bright new recording, it sounds fake. You have

to restore it just enough to where you can understand

what is being said, but not too much that it

sounds doctored. It's a really fine line. It

reminds me. So are you a true crime junkie? Or

do you just like forensic files? I'm I wouldn't

describe myself as a junkie, but I feel pretty

well versed. At least I haven't listened to cereal

yet. But I really enjoy like darknet diaries.

And I've watched the Netflix thing about the

pizza murderer. So I'm definitely familiar with

the true crime. John. Well, the reason why I

ask is because in 2014 investigation discovery

did a series and I think it only had one season.

I remember correctly here. No evil. So think

of forensic files, but it's all audio. It's,

I mean, it's a visual show, but like it's focused

on like there, there's one episode where. the

911 caller hears the gunshot, the whisper, and

then the other gunshot kind of thing. Like, Oh,

I gotta watch this. Oh, no, my God. I'm trying

to see how many episodes that this thing has.

But MDB says it looks like it's still going.

It says 2017 through Yeah, it's Yeah, I don't

know. It's weird. I haven't seen any new ones,

though. But anyway, like because we're talking

about sound that I'm like, yeah, bring this up.

This is kind of cool. That is cool. There's another

show that this kind of reminds me of. Did you

ever watch that Apple TV original called calls?

No, it didn't get as much publicity. It's an

it's an it's an audio only thing on Apple TV.

Like there's a little waveform visualizer. But

that's it. Other than that, it's it's just audio

and it's an entire series sort of about the end

of the world. Told just through people calling

each other during the end of the world. Oh, wow.

It's freaky. It's really freaky I wonder if they

dug up Orson Welles and you know, it's it's very

reminiscent of that stuff. It's a little bit

more Sound effects II like there's like, you

know people running through explosions and oh

my god, yeah, it's a little bit more like that.

But it's definitely you. I feel like you can't

do anything without referencing Orson Welles

to an extent. Absolutely. You really can't. In

July, peas grow there. In July, why would you?

Yeah. All right. So for me personally, there's

a huge difference between audio podcasts and

video. Okay. Videos to me are, they're a YouTube

video. They're this, they're that. I don't see

that as a podcast. I understand. Like, and when

I say videos, I mean, like, here's my review

of the iPhone 14 pro max, you know, that kind

of video. And I understand that people have video

versions of their podcasts and everything else.

But for me, I want to listen. I want to, if I'm

listening and then I have to go do the dishes

or take the trash out or whatever, I want to

be able to take that with me, still engaged in

the content without having to sit here and watch

something. So which do you prefer audio or video

podcasting as a fan and as a producer? Excellent

question. I might have the most annoying opinion

about this. So I just want to say before working

on waveform, I'd never done a video podcast before.

So I really had to change my thinking. And especially,

it's so easy to do things on the video side of

the podcast that you realize don't translate

to the audio side of the podcast until people

tweet at you. So I really had to change my thinking,

change my thinking there to make sure everything

still works. But the reason I say I'm annoying

is because I'm one of those people who will watch

YouTube videos with my screen off. I'll go through

like I'll watch straight up YouTube videos and

just turn my screen off and just listen to them

all the time. And so I don't know if I can say

I prefer audio podcasts versus video podcasts,

but I will say I even video visual stuff I oftentimes

consume purely hourly. So I guess that's where

I stand. But yeah, it's definitely something

that makes you one thing we joke about a lot

at the office is how loose the term podcast even

is anymore. Because video podcasting is just

like a talk show now and like what separates

a normal talk show from a video podcast and also

even the word podcast, right? Because the word

podcast comes from iPod, which is not a product

you can buy anymore. Yeah, it's yeah, it's not

a product you can buy anymore. And you know,

what was it that Steve said when he announced

it, it was it was something and broadcasting.

That was the I think it's it's pot. It's like

the iPod and and broadcasting because I think

the original idea of it was you could Use an

RSS feed to push out these new episodes So it

wasn't like broadcasting over the radio. It was

like this new kind of Broadcasting. Yeah Yeah,

I mean it's still it still works whether it's

audio or video and if you have to define it between

the two That's fine. Like I tell everybody it's

like I am audio podcast only I have no camera.

I have no nothing. I don't don't want to make

things complicated. I just want to sit here,

look at my questions and talk to awesome people.

That's it. Perfect. No, I totally feel you. That

being said, there are a lot of things I do for

the waveform podcast that audio listeners might

not even know about. I've spent the past bunch

of weeks So we have a road caster. Are you familiar

with a road caster? Yeah, I've heard it. Yeah.

I and we have all these lights all over the podcast.

And all I wanted to do is be able to control

the lights with the road caster. And God, that

was annoying. But it's the kind of thing where

if you're watching the video podcast, I think

it makes a big difference. You know, when someone

gets it does right. Um, but if you're just listening

to the audio podcast, it's like those hours of

work literally made no difference in the, in

the product. Yeah. Cause in, well, in December

of 2022, when you guys did your grand finale

trivia, you knew I was going to bring this up.

Oh yeah. Wait, I have one thing to say about

this and that's everyone has been tweeting this

and I haven't addressed it. And I feel like this

is the perfect chance to address it. The reason

Adam yells Thanksgiving trivia podcast. is not

because we recorded it in Thanksgiving. It's

because we wrote it with the intention of the

episode coming out in Thanksgiving, pushed it

back to now. In the script, it still said Thanksgiving

trivia extravaganza. We were just like, that

was such a busy week and we were all rolling

with the punches. I just threw the script in

front of Adam and we ran with it. That's what

happened there. We decided to leave it in because

it was really funny. Yeah, that episode was recorded

at the time when it was supposed to be recorded.

We just said something silly. See, I would go

like I would super zoom into his waveform and

see if I could cut the Thanksgiving part out.

Like if I was editing that, I would look at look

at his waveform and I do that now with other

other pieces. If there's a specific thing that

I can go in and either trim or completely split

the clip and cut out what I don't want, I will

super zoom in on that waveform to make sure that

I, you know. I have to ask what, what is your

DAW of choice? Let's get into this, the ever,

the perennial audio discussion. Okay. Well, first

of all, you'll have to explain the DAW part.

Cause I'm sorry. Like what, what software are

you using? It's um, It's Adobe. Is it audition?

It's either. It used to be sound booth. It was

Adobe sound booth and now it's Adobe audition.

I think it's CS five. Cool. Very cool. I think.

Yeah. So yeah, I had to learn the multi -track.

Like originally I was recording podcasts for

years just on Skype, all on one thing. And I

was fine. Cause most of the time there wasn't

an um, every other, um, word, um, But, you know.

Now it's like, Oh, I understand. I can cut out

sounds or I can do this or I can do that. Or

if somebody accidentally costs without using

judicious use of mute or something, it's like,

Oh, I have this on a separate track. I can just

cut out your cough and I hope you're well enough

to continue on with the show. Apparently I have

a reputation. This is way before the pandemic.

This was actually my first podcast. It was episode

17 of the transformers generation one. podcast,

we were reviewing the five part season three

opener, five faces of darkness of the old transformers

generation one eighties cartoon. My buddy, Peacock

Michael, he was like deathly ill. And apparently

I like, he had this cold, he had this cough,

he had this, he had that. And this was back in

the days where I wasn't doing multi -track recording.

And apparently I now have this reputation where,

you know, behind the scenes, it's like, you're

sick. Do you want to move it? No, no, no, I'll

be fine. I'll be fine. Okay. I'm asking you if

you want to postpone, you know, I don't have

to cut out all your coughs. Well that, but also

like if they're sick, they're sick. Like I'm

not a monster. I'm not going to sit here with

an audio whip saying, you know, be interesting

on my podcast. Like, you know, You know, like

again, this is coming out the beginning of January

of 2023 when we were initially, you know, trying

to figure out when we were going to have you

on, you know, like a week later. Right. I think

it was a week after we initially, you messaged

me saying we all have COVID. None of us are in

the office. Oh my gosh, what a disaster that

was. And I'm like, Oh my God, I am so sorry that

you have gotten that thing, whatever you need

to like, and that's my thing. I am this, you

know, quote unquote, people pleaser, but it's

more so like, I can, I pivot better than any

couch, you know, whatever, whatever I have to

do, whatever is going to work. If we have to

postpone it, we have to postpone it. I can, I

can reschedule stuff. I don't care. As long as

I get the content, I don't care. Totally. Totally.

Like I'm not a stickler. Like, Oh my God, this

has to be done on Monday. Oh my God. This is

like, I used to, I kind of used to be like that,

but I've learned over the last 14 years. It's

like, it'll get done. Like I said on a podcast,

let the end of last year, I said, you know, and

no one is like screaming at me, when's this podcast

or when like, no one's really asking me on Twitter

or anything like when, when the shows are coming

out. But I usually say at this point in my life

at 42, almost 43 I'll be 43 in February. Holy

crap. But you know, I usually say you'll get

it when I'm good and ready to give it to you.

That's usually how you deliver the best stuff

too. Most times. Yes. Yeah. But I also ended

up doing this whole like pre -production, like

this is being, as of this recording in December,

folks, this is being prerecorded for January.

So technically we are in January of the new year,

but like I will prerecord a bunch of stuff and

then I'll go back and look at it. I'm like, Oh

my God, I have to edit all of this. I think I

edited like 10 different podcasts at the end

of December, like Christmas Eve. I know I was

sitting here. editing three different shows in

one day. Wow, I'm a machine. I am just a machine

props to you. I get when I get audio tired way,

way faster than that. I live in audio. That's

that's just the way I am, I guess. So you've

mentioned your setup. already with what you guys

use on the show. But if something happens to

the headphones or the microphones or the microphone

arm or the cameras or the this or the that, if

it breaks down, heaven forbid it ever does, do

you buy the exact same thing? Or do you upgrade

to something different and new and better? That

is such an interesting question. Hmm. So I think

it depends on the thing microphone arm, I feel

like we're willing to get something better. For

the rest of the stuff in there, I don't I don't

really know if we if there is a better to be

gotten. Like obviously, there's always more expensive

headphones you can buy. But I think that's more

of a branding thing. Like I think listeners or

viewers would be weirded out if they saw a different

pair of headphones on one of our heads. We just

replaced a pair of headphones, not because they

were broken, but because they were creaky. I

could hear them creaking in the mic. Oh, wow.

Yeah, sorry, it totally threw me off that you

said microphone arm because we just had a microphone

arm break. And I was like, how do you know? I

didn't because I have to like, so I will. So

when the waveform podcast comes out every Friday

and normally I will listen somewhere between

four and seven AM just depends on when I wake

up. But it's usually the first thing I do on

Friday is listen to you guys. And I will then

go back later in the day or over the weekend

and see, Oh, like I remember maybe Andrew or

Marquez or you or David or somebody says, says,

oh, this would probably be better for the video

version. So I still, no, no, no. I'm, but my

point is, is that I still go back to the waveform

clips channel or the waveform channel or Marquez's

channel, wherever you guys publish the, the video

version. And even though it might be a day after

I've actually listened to it. My brain is such

that I forget stuff all the time. So it's like,

you know, Oh, video version. Okay. I remember

they said something about the video. I'm like,

okay. Like with the lights. And this is going

to be interesting because Mr. Sound round over

here, folks with trivia was the, were the lights

timed to the sound effects in the trivia round.

Uh, you mean like the waiting music like, yeah,

yeah, no, no, they were, uh, they, the lights

were, um, all right. So, uh, have you ever heard

the term pixel mapping? Yes. Yeah. So the lights

were, were pixel maps. So we've got these quasar

are to the eight foot model. And I don't know

exactly how many LEDs are in there, but you can

group them in 48. LEDs across the eight feet.

And so the way we drive it is the light thinks

of itself as a one by 48 pixel display. Okay.

And so I actually send it video files. And it's

playing one row, it sums down the pixels to 48

pixels, and then it plays one row of the video.

And so for the waiting music, I used noise, like,

like, not just like pure static, more like mathematical

noise. But I use noise and I and I dyed it blue.

And I think I made it like scroll a little bit.

So it's actually completely random. And it just

sort of happened to sync up with the music. Very

cool. Very cool. Did you think you'd be podcasting

for as long as you have whether as a host or

a producer or any of that kind of stuff? Not

not at all. Uh, yeah. Um, I, I feel so lucky

that I work for Marquez. Um, I remember earlier

when I said I, growing up, I was obsessed with

Rooster Teeth. And, uh, and I used to think,

man, it'd be so cool to work for a YouTube channel

like Rooster Teeth. And, uh, and here I am. So

I feel like the luckiest guy in the whole world.

Awesome. Awesome. How have your podcasting goals

changed since you started compared to now? Well,

when I started, I thought of podcasting as just

a vehicle to becoming a composer, like it very

much felt like a temporary thing for me. And

now I'm in a place where I don't, I don't know

if I want to say, yeah, I'm going to be in I'm

gonna be in podcasting for the rest of my life,

but it made me much more interested in in things

like storytelling and narrative arcs and branding.

And it changed my my priorities. Right now I'm

obsessed with jingles, which I know don't really

have a lot to do with podcasting. But I actually

they can I mean, a jingle can be an intro or

an outro. I think it can be an intro and outro.

And they're also both expressions of a brand,

a podcast is just a long form audio expression

of a brand and a jingle is a short form audio

expression of a brand. But they're both supposed

to leave you with the feeling that the brand

is supposed to leave you with. And so that is

mainly how my perspective on podcasting has changed.

When I first started, I looked at it as I was

just trying to like, do the best job I could

within the medium. And now I look at it much

more broadly, like, How is this supposed to make

people feel and what sounds are going to make

people feel that way? Yeah, I hope that kind

of answers the question. No, it does. Yeah, no,

absolutely. I mean, like, the interesting thing

about you is you've been producing for a while

and everything else. But most of the hosts or

most of the people I have on are people like

me where I have been hosting, producing whatever

like I've created multiple shows over the last

I haven't been in podcasting that long. I got

my first gig podcasting in 2019, so I'm actually

relatively new to it. Well, you guys do excellent

work over there, so keep it up. Thank you. All

right. Your podcast listenership as a listener,

what defines a good podcast to you? Oh, that

sound I can tell you that right now. You know,

I turn out to be a huge stickler about audio

when it comes to podcasting. One of my favorite

podcasts called now and I really hope I mean,

they're not gonna hear this because my favorite

pocket one of my favorite podcasts called now

and then it's an it's a podcast about American

history. And it's these two women named Joanna

Friedman and Heather Cox Richardson, and they're

both really famous American historians. And it's

this brilliant podcast where they pick an issue

and they trace it through the full 200 years

of American history. And they're both razor sharp.

They're so smart and so informed. And the podcast

just doesn't sound good. it just doesn't sound

good. And it's not necessarily like a problem

for me. Like I've never turned off an episode

because it sounded so bad. But part of me is

like, I wish I don't even want to work for them.

I just want to give them some pointers or something

like that. But I also feel I always get nervous

whenever I say it out loud, not because I'm worried

about offending them. But I'm also kind of worried

that there's like a producer on the show already.

Who I'm gonna offend and and you trust me the

one thing I understand about producing a podcast

is that and I'm sure you know this too It's so

much is out of your control So you net like like

your guest could be in the worst environment

Recording on their phone and there's nothing

you can do about it, you know at the end it like

so so I'd recognize it's not anyone's fault,

but I also anyway, so Other of my favorite podcast.

I think darknet diaries is awesome The way they

incorporate sound effects and music is really

awesome. And my favorite thing about Darknet

Diaries is the host. I think his name is Jack

Reisider. He does his interviews and his primary

dialogue. in the exact same studio with the exact

same mic. So he can effortlessly switch between

him narrating without a guest and him interviewing

a guest. And he's able to weave his narrative

in and out of the interview and in these like

magical ways. Obviously, the date, okay, I guess

I'm not going to list all my favorite podcasts.

But I think that's later. That's yeah, I think

for me, the biggest thing as a listener is actually

the content and not the Not the structure and

not the not the not the bells and whistles But

it's like yeah, you want to listen to something

that you're interested in you're not gonna like

for me I'm not gonna listen to a Game of Thrones

podcast because I've only ever seen the first

ten minutes of them walking in season one episode

one, right? So I don't give a crap about you

know, that's great If there are a bunch of Game

of Thrones podcasts out there, but they ain't

for me. So yeah, exactly Yeah, I really need

it to be compelling in some way. So yeah, that's

the big thing for me as a listener So when you

are listening as a listener, what does a pod,

like that first episode, what does it have to

have to draw you in to make you want to keep

listening? Wow. That's a great question. I don't

know. I think for me it's narrative structure.

I think for me, it has to it has to be a good

story and it has to get me hooked and it can't

just be. I don't really listen to a lot of I

listen to a bunch of interview podcasts, but

even those are more structured. I'm not a big

fan of the Joe Rogan style podcasts where people

just talk. And I know that's kind of funny because

I produce waveform and I love listening to waveform.

But you guys are talking about stuff that you

love. See, that's the other part of and that's

the part of the like the producer, the host thing

that we'll get to later, but like. you're not

going to do a podcast on a topic like I already

mentioned about Game of Thrones, but you're you

have to love what you're doing or love what you're

discussing. And that's the thing with waveform.

You guys love everyone loves tech. Yeah, you

know, so it's easy. It is easy. You're right.

Actually, like passion is something that you

can just instantly sense, especially through

audio. Absolutely. And so yeah, that's a great

point. I think passion is definitely something

I look for. But It's funny. This isn't a podcast.

It's a YouTube channel. It was a channel called

Defunctland that made this video a few weeks

ago. It was about jingles, so I was already hype,

but it was about tracking down the guy who wrote

the Disney Channel jingle. I feel like I've been

chasing the dragon ever since. Like I want another

video to get me as psyched up as that video got

me and I haven't found it yet. And I've switched

to looking for like investigative podcasts that

just fucking do it as well as that. Yeah. Do

you find the guy or the person? I don't want

to spoil it. Okay, I'll have to watch it. Exactly.

It's an hour and 45 minutes. It's like a huge

investigation. All right. Well, that's that's

gonna tie in nicely to the next question. As

a listener, do you prefer short 30 minutes to

an hour and 30 minute shows? Or do you prefer

longer podcast episodes as in two hours or more?

No, I think for me personally, if it's over an

hour and a half. That's a lot. That's a lot for

me. Yeah, I think there's a sweet spot between

45 minutes and an hour and 15. But again, plenty

of the daily does those 25 minute bangers. You

know what I mean? Can't go wrong there. But yeah,

for me, I think my sweet spot is in between 45

minutes and an hour and 15. All right. Then I

guess we better hurry up, folks. Take your time.

As I'm sure you know, you record like an hour

and a half, an hour 45 of podcasts. And by the

time you cut it, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. But

I mean, and again, for me, it's it depends on

what the podcast is doing. Like for us at the

GeekCast radio network, we have done seven top

100 countdowns. Whoa, actually, I say whoa, but

uh, audio, you know, Audio is so much better

a medium for a top 100 countdown than video.

Absolutely. So the top 100 countdowns that we

we've done in the past and I don't have the list.

It's we so originally and I'm only everyone listening

to the sound of my voice who has listened to

this show before listen to this for they've heard

me say this in the last year and a half, two

years, three years, whatever. But this is just

for you. You remember the old And I say old because

it is old. The old IGN top 100 animated series

list. Totally. That was 100 page clicks. Oh my

God. You had to click through to see every entry.

My, my buddy, Kevin Optimus Solo. He's like,

there's gotta be a better way to do this. And

he, along with myself and my other um, the guy

that co -created the GCR in with me, Steve Megatron,

we came up with an audio format for a top 100

countdown and we can do it with almost anything.

We've done animated series, animated films, villains,

wrestlers. What's, what's the key to making it

flow? How, what's the, what's the trick? Well,

you got to have someone in the, in the hot seat

directing the traffic. You have to have, you

know, the traffic, you know, like This is okay.

Coming in at number 100 is Ellis. What is your

opinion of this? Blah, blah, blah. Let's move

on to the next blah, blah, blah. But these episodes

usually, cause we're usually doing 20 entries

per, per podcast. So it's like 100 to 81, 80

to 61. So each of those is an episode of the

show. They usually end up being two and a half,

three and a half hours long, depending on. What

we have to say about whatever the one we just

finished was the top 100 Transformers characters

countdown got it and I don't know if it was you

or if somebody said recently on the show that

they were a fan of Transformers I forget who

it was I I could have sworn I heard one of you

all say that but I put So that is I think it's

roughly about 11 and a half to 12 hours of produced

audio. That took me 100 hours of it. I kept time.

My late wife, my wife passed away last year,

but When we were doing this, uh, you know, I

would take breaks. I would go visit her. We would

spend time together, but I would basically spend

14 to 15 hours a day editing one episode because

you have to put in every little clip, every,

like my buddy Steve does the, does the voices

for number 100, this, this, this, and then you

put a clip of whatever the character is. Wow.

I wrote a blog up about this on our website and

yeah, 100, like it was the biggest project I

had ever done in audio editing and it was, I'm

very happy with the outcome, but the workflow

of that was just nuts. Yeah. How long was the

final episode? It was six episodes. So episode

one and episode six are the intro and outro episode

two through five are the countdown. Like I said,

in grand total, it's like 11 and a half, 12 hours

of published audio. Amazing. That's awesome.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here. I'm

just letting you know that like all about the

audio, like I said to you in the DM on Twitter,

it's like, but that that thing nearly killed

me a couple of times. Cause I'm like sitting

here, you know, working and working and working

for like, you know, 13, 14 hours a day. And I'm

like, what time is it? Have I, I don't like,

I'm just, I want to get this done. And then I

got down to the foot, one of the, the, the top

25 episode, I got down to number seven and I

started screwing up and either falling asleep

or putting in clips that weren't supposed to

be there or not like the mouse was off. I'm like,

okay, I got to go to bed. I'll finish this tomorrow.

Right. There's never any shame and I'll finish

this tomorrow. Sometimes you just need... My

ears get really tired. I used to feel really

bad about it, but even at the MKBHD studio when

I'm working on mixing the podcast or mixing a

video or something like that, I'll stand up and

take my headphones off. Don't know once every

like 45 minutes at least yeah You need to like

your ears are a muscle just like any other muscle

you have and they get worn out, you know Yep

As a listener, do you start at the beginning

of a podcast the most recent episode or do you

jump jump around? I actually do something even

worse. I Listen in reverse order you listen backwards.

Yes, which and it hard because I almost never

finish any of these shows. And it's because,

and this is not, you know, there's no not trying

to shade anyone here, but the more you do a show,

the better it gets. the more practice you get.

So as I'm listening to the show, it just gets

worse and worse and worse. And eventually like,

I'm done with this. They haven't learned yet.

So, you know, yeah, but no, yeah. So I'm, I'm

that psychopath who starts with the most recent

episode and goes backwards. Yeah. I, I, I, it

depends on the show. I mean, if you have like

my first podcast was reviewing all 98 episodes

of the Transformers cartoon. To me, if I'm a

listener, I'm going to start at the beginning

with the first episode and then go all the way

to the finale kind of thing. But if you have

something that is just like a general... a general

geek show or a general whatever show that is

just fine. Oh, you're more than fine. Like I

did not go back to the very first episode of

Waveform. I don't even remember. I would have

to check my screenshots to see what was the very

first episode I listened to because I only found

Marquez like 2019, 2020. So, you know, I mean,

I've only been listening for so long at this

point, but There are, there was one podcast that

they're not doing it right now, but it's called

part -time nerds, full -time dads. And how they

started out was our wives are pregnant and we're

going through that. So then each episode they

would still do like they would do like geek news.

Like they talked about video games and things

like that and whatever else. but they would give

updates on their lives and on, you know, how

the pregnancy was going or, Oh my God, we can't

record the podcast this week because we're going

into labor or we're doing this or we're doing

that. So it's kind of like, even though it's

still a general geek show about video games and

about geek life and about what those two gentlemen

are doing, it's also taking you through the journey

of being parents. Cause it's part -time nerds,

full -time dads is the name of the show. So it's

like, you know, It was awesome. It was it was

very sounds really awesome. Yeah Yeah, it is

I wish they I wish they'd bring it back. Come

on Mike. Come on this get to work. Yeah As a

listener how many hosts are too many on one episode

I Don't know if there's a number I Don't know

you mean like like simultaneously on Mike at

one time Well, not necessarily on Mike at one

time, but like you and I are the two hosts that

are doing this, even though I'm more the host

and you're the guest, but like if we added in

and, or if we added in Marquez or if we added

in David, if you, if you have a, you know, there

are very few people that can do one man podcasts.

Very right. And most of the time it's at least

two hosts. Sometimes it goes up to five, but

it depends on the format. It depends on what

it's doing. It depends. It depends. It depends

for me. I would say anywhere from two to three

is, is like the sweet spot. Like three is really,

really the sweet spot. Cause you have three differing

opinions. Um, luckily with wave form, you guys

can kind of like, you know, pitch in here and

there, but I don't mean to say pitch. I need

to rephrase. No, you're exactly right though.

You know what I'm talking about. We are not the

interesting people on the show. Stop it. Trust

me. I'm not trying to sell myself short here.

It's like the things that Adam and I are good

at are not. Stop it. We can throw little tokens

in here and there and that's perfect for us.

I don't know if I have an answer to the question

of how many is too many or how few is too few,

because a lot of the podcasts, I do listen to

a few single host podcasts. I feel like the best

answer to this question is the title of, I believe

it's track four on Big L's 1995, Lifestyles of

the Poor and Dangerous. The track is called Eight

is Enough. I'm going to posit that as my answer.

Oh boy, that's way too many. Skype would never

be able to hold that back in the day. Oh boy,

that would be a breakdown. Oh my gosh, that's

right. Skype did used to have like the weird

limits and you'd have to do like a tiny chat

or something if you wanted to get a bunch of

people in there. Yeah, those are the bad old

days. Yeah, I don't miss that. No. When do you,

so you mentioned this earlier, but when do you

stop listening to a podcast altogether? I don't

know. There's some that I, I feel like a lot

of the ones I listened to when I was younger,

I kind of feel like I don't listen to anymore.

Like I don't really, I don't really keep up with

the rooster teeth to any degree. Um, uh, but

I don't know. I guess. I don't listen to very

many podcasts. I guess I should, I should preface

that. Like I have like six or seven that I listened

to. Um, and I've frankly listened to those for

like years. Um, so I guess when they end, like,

like the last one I think I just stopped listening

to was called the Lazarus heist. Um, and it just

ended. That's just it. You know, like they were

just like, we're done. Yeah. So yeah, I don't

know if I have a great answer for that one, unfortunately,

but I mean, for me, it's like, if, and I don't,

I'm one of these old people who, like, I'm not

easy, like, I have thick skin, I survived the

80s, damn it, as a kid, right? You know, like,

not a lot of stuff is going to offend me, like,

you know, like, people getting upset over blue

bubble versus green bubble. You know, like, Oh

my God, it's the end of the world. Just make

all the bubbles purple, then we'll be fine. Yeah,

right color. It's fine. It's whatever. But like,

for me, it's like if the quality of the show,

like the audio quality dips or if the, if there's

too much, I do not like, I understand there needs

to be a silence between what you're saying and

what the other person is saying. And that's fine.

But if I'm sitting here, try it, like recently

in the last, last year at this point, Like I

will be thinking of something and then I as the

host who was supposed to be running the show

I will completely break down Because I have forgotten

whatever the fuck it was that I was supposed

to be saying and it would be like, oh, yeah I

really want to talk to Ellis about Shit oh crap

It's kind of like, you know turning the turning

the robot off and it just kind of like D powers

and you know So like if stuff like that happens,

or if things aren't like, no one's going to hear

this because I'll have cut it out. But at the

beginning of this recording, I said, okay, 49,

50, 51 edit point. Yeah. No one's going to hear

that in the, I mean, they just heard me say it

now, but no one's going to hear that. But like,

you know, it's those kind of things. If something

has to happen at like, if you need a bathroom

breaker, if you need this, or if you need that,

okay, let's pause, I will find a way to bring

it back, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, it's

that kind of stuff that would make me stop listening.

Like, if you're going to continually do that,

if things are going to be continually not, and

I understand nobody has the the editing. insanity

that I do as far as like digging, like, but cause

I have the time. I don't like I told you off

air. I literally eat, sleep and drink podcast.

That's what I do. Listening, producing, whatever.

It's kind of like, yeah. Have you seen fever

pitch the movie? What's that? Oh, okay. Well,

In Fever Pitch, it's Jimmy Fallon and Drew Barrymore.

It's a baseball movie from 2004, and it's based

around his character's absolute love of the Boston

Red Sox. Greatest baseball team ever. It's based

around the 2004 season when they finally broke

the curse and all this and all that. Well, in

that, Jimmy Fallon says to some TV station in

Pawtucket, you know, where are the Red Sox rank

for you? And he's like, Red Sox, sex and breathing.

So for me, it's like podcast, sex and breathing.

Right. You know, so yeah, I don't know. All right.

Before we head to a quick break for this podcast,

what are the podcasts that you, you just kind

of mentioned it, but like, what are you currently

listening to or what is it that you're looking

to be listening to? Totally. So right now I am

anxiously awaiting every episode of Jack reciter's

darknet diaries. I think that's like such a killer

show. I'll usually listen to the daily and like

bunches. So like I'll miss a few episodes and

then listen to like four in a row. Yeah. Now

and then with Heather Cox Richardson, Joanne

Freeman. Those are just unbelievably informative

things. That's a history podcast. What else am

I listening to? Let me pull out my phone and

let me just see what's happening right now. I

listen to podcasts on the podcasts app on Apple.

I don't know if that's something people care

about or not. I listen to BBC NewsHour every

now and then, but I don't keep super up with

that one. Oh, the WNYC collab with Oh, it's called

now or no, it's called more perfect. Who does

this? Everyone who knows this is going to be

like, wow, Alice, this radio lab, it's a WNYC

collab with radio lab. And it's about the Constitution

and the Supreme Court. And I think they just

do an excellent job with telling those stories.

That is what I'm listening to right this second.

If you have a baseball podcast though that you

want to recommend, there is a baseball podcast

sized hole in my listening. I'd love to take

some recommendations there. I actually don't.

I don't actually listen to any sports podcasts.

Gotcha. Oh man. Yeah. Originally from Boston

and south of Boston and all that. So, you know,

Boston sports is kind of like life and, and whatever

else. And I pay attention to it every now and

then now that I'm in Indiana and whatever else,

but that is what it is. Oh, wait, if you, I'm

real quick. If you're in Indiana. Um, you should

got to try to make a trip down to the sweetwater

showroom. You're right. You're right near audio

Mecca. Oh, really? Let me. All right. So we're

going to go to a quick break here and hear some

ads and some other stuff and whatever else that

I decided to put in here. And I don't know, maybe

I'll somehow get David on here to you're listening

to the studio 2009. Right. Uh, but wake up. We'll

be back right after this. Hello, geeks and geekettes

looking for a podcast that covers a vast array

of topics. Then check out Altered Geek Unleashed,

where we discuss our thoughts on this week's

geeky news, tech, gaming, television shows, movies,

cartoons, comics, and more. So get altered, get

geeky with the Altered Geeks. every Friday on

the Geekcast Radio Network. A new show drops

on Tuesday mornings on the GCRN website and all

of the major podcast platforms. So listen to

the Marku42's universe podcast from the universe

and beyond. On the simplistic reviews podcast,

we talk movies. We talk TV. We talk. Hello Julie,

what the heck are you doing? Trying to make our

spot sound more exciting by adding explosions

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you could have got the

point across with sound effects. Not the real

thing Download the show on iTunes or if simplistic

reviews dot blog spot dot com. I'm sure your

insurance company will cover that. No, they won't.

No, they probably won't We are back here inside

studio 2009, which was the podcast that Steve

Megatron and I created in 2020. And it's all

about the audio and visual. Like we will cover

any, that's why podcast approach is here, but

we will review movies. We'll talk about music.

We'll talk about, you know, anything. If you

can hear it or you can see it, we'll talk about

it on this show. So it doesn't matter what it

is. We wanted to. You know, basically put instead

of having a movie podcast or a cartoon, like

I still have the cartoon podcast and that's fine.

But like we wanted a place where we could talk

about anything and everything. So that's, that's

kind of what this is. And it has been awesome

having Ellis here and we are going to be talking

about podcast production. Oh yeah. Maybe as a

producer, do you find yourself listening to podcasts

less and less? Yes. Totally. Yeah, no. It's definitely

the kind of thing where like when you work on

podcasts all day, at the end of the day, maybe

a podcast isn't what you want to put on. I still

love them, you know, obviously. But yeah, I definitely,

definitely noticed that the rate at which I consumed

them dipped a little bit when it became part

of my day job. Yeah, absolutely. As a producer,

are you a podcast planner or are you throwing

stuff at the mic to see what sticks? Please don't

throw stuff at me. That's another great question.

I am a planner, definitely, through and through.

But I also find that especially at MKBHD, things

move so fast. Yeah. And just I think in modern

web content production, things just move really,

really fast. And so you have to find a balance

between planning stuff out and being ready for

anything when that red light goes on. And that's

why I'm really thankful to have my co -producer,

Adam, because when there's two of us, we can

actually truly be ready for anything. As a producer,

do you prefer Okay, so this is usually for people

that aren't in like this whole giant conglomerate

that you're in. But as a producer, are you a

one man show kind of host? Or do you prefer working

with co hosts? I have never done the one man

show thing. And also like I've always I describe

myself as a hired gun. I've never started my

own show from scratch or anything like that.

I've worked as a consultant working with brands

and organizations to help them get a show together.

But I've never done the one man show thing and

I don't know if I like it very much personally

because I love audio. I love making things sound

good. I love telling stories. There's also a

lot of things I don't really like, and I'm glad

when I have other people to do those things for

me. Yeah, exactly. Like writing copy, like writing

the description of a podcast, I would sometimes

just rather pull my teeth out. I'd rather, you

know, like, so yeah, I'm really glad when I have

other people around me to do the stuff that they're

good at so I can focus on the things that I'm

good at. Yeah, the copy for this episode, folks.

the description you'll see in your eye devices

or Android devices or whatever devices you choose

to listen to this on. If you, if you even look

at the copy, it's basically going to be the description

that I wrote out for the intro minus a few words.

So technically I've already written it. Usually

my copy is fairly simple. It's like you're listening,

you know, In, in episode, whatever number, I

think this is supposed to be 56. I think, I don't

remember, but anyway, like whatever episode number

it is, you know, join TFU and Mike as he talks

with Ellis Roven from, you know, whatever and

blah, blah, blah. As they talk about audio and

this, that, and the other thing. you know, and

then I put the little, you know, little tagline

that we use. So, so it's not really, it's like

less, it's not even a full paragraph. It's just

like a blurb. Like I don't do major, major, major

copy for like the ton eventually, you know, but

like the copy for, and we'll get to this at the

end. Like I have for years now and I've catered

it to every show. I have this whole long outro

thing that I do. Yep. Yep. Can I ask you a podcast

production question? Sure. One one podcast producer

to another. Do you edit with a jog wheel? No,

I just use a standard mouse and keyboard. Interesting.

I've wanted to become a jog wheel editor for

so long and I just can't work it into my flow.

I can't figure it out. Yeah, I'm, I'm one of

those people that I just need the the most simplest

of things. Oh, no, I'm looking at pictures of

that. No, not even gonna work. No, it's like

a turntable. Hell no. What the? Well, so, um,

do you know that that creator the blind surfer?

I believe I've heard of them, but I don't he

he's it's exactly what he sounds like he's a

he's a blind surfer surfer who's blind and he

is a professional voice actor and and he's totally

blind like like can't really see anything as

far as I know and and he edits his own dialogue

and the way he does it is he has one of those

jog wheels that And he so he scrubs through his

audio and he could find the exact points and

stuff to make the cuts. And when I was like,

Oh, that is so cool. That is so awesome. Yeah,

that's, that's what zoom is for on Adobe edition.

Yeah, me like I Yeah, no, I know. No, not not

even I there's no like just looking at that.

I'm like, I'm not a I'm not a DJ at a rap battle

like that reminds me of is I have one at my desk

and and the thing that I find myself using it

most for is when I'm doing sound effects for

an animation that they give me and it's really

nice to have the wheel so I can go frame by frame

and really really calculate all the motion that's

going on on screen. But as far as dialogue editing,

I haven't worked into my my flow yet. Yeah. I'm

sure the jog wheel works best on the videos that

you guys do. And I've seen, cause again, I'm

a fan. I watch Marquez's stuff on the main channel

and whatever other people he has in the main

channel with him. I watch all the stuff on the

studio. Since you guys launched the studio channel,

which I'm like the studio. Hmm. I wonder where

they got that. I know it's fine. It's the big,

whatever, you know, but it's like, I've seen

some of the behind the scenes stuff of what you

guys do with the video. I'm like, Oh my God,

that's like, yeah, the job will probably works

better on visual than than audio. Yeah, that's

where I find use for it. But I'm still looking

for for how to work it into my dialogue flow,

but not yet. So speaking of all this, you know,

fancy stuff. As a producer, do you feel you need

a mixing board and all the fancy stuff that would

essentially be found at a radio station? Or are

you good with a great microphone and headphone

setup? I actually have a take on this that I

don't know how many people would agree with,

but I stand by it. And that's that you don't

need a great microphone or great headphones.

The most important thing to recording good audio

is actually the room you're in. It's the room

you're in and it's where you put the microphone

in the room and it's how far away you are from

the microphone. Playing with those three variables

can get you so much farther than buying a new

mic can. It's really hard for me to explain this.

When people reach out to me and they say, what

mic should I buy? What headphones should I buy?

I usually say, whatever mic and headphones you

have, and get really good at placing those. And

one of my favorite lessons to teach when I was

teaching audio at the University for the Arts

in Philadelphia was we had these really nice

recording studios there, these acoustically treated,

not just acoustically treated rooms, but rooms

that were architecturally designed from the ground

up to sound really good, right? And we would

fly a $4 ,000 mic and a $400 mic. And we would

shoot them out against each other. And overwhelmingly,

it was very clear to my students that when you

have them placed correctly in a good room, the

difference between them is very, very, very small.

It's very small. So as far as fancy stuff, Okay,

that being said my editing setup is totally pimped

out right now And it makes me edit at like a

whirlwind pace I have a LGs dual up giant square

monitor on my left and a studio Apple studio

display on my right and I have like a full Like

it's sort of like a stream deck. It's called

the monogram creator set up It's just a bunch

of macro buttons that I have custom mapped to

all my stuff. Yeah, I have like a super deep

intense, expensive workflow for my editing. But

as far as recording, yeah, man, like, you know,

you can do you can get so far with a mic that

costs $150. You know, you really, really? Oh,

yeah. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't like I said, it

like And there are times where, you know, some

people would be like the, I think the mixing

stuff, again, you guys do this podcast in person

and all that. I think that's probably where mixers

would probably come in is like to make sure it's,

you know, all the audio is correct and everything

else and that kind of stuff. If you're there

in person. With waveform, if I hope I'm not getting

too technical for anyone, but With waveform,

we have the road caster. So we have faders. We

have a little mixing board for everyone's mics.

But I have those faders bypassing the recorder.

So even if I turn someone's mic up in the middle

of the podcast or turn it down in the middle

of the podcast, that is not reflected in the

actual recording. That is just for what people

hear in their headphones. Oh, nice. Yeah. So

I try to keep it as pure as possible entering

the recorder. And I'm just making people more

comfortable in the studio. There's a guy named

Al Schmidt who passed away last year, maybe this

year. And Al Schmidt is one of the most famous

recording engineers ever. And he's most famous

for recording Frank Sinatra. He was like Frank

Sinatra's go -to guy. And for a lot of those

early Frank Sinatra recordings, man, like 50s

and 60s stuff, there's no compression and no

EQ on it. Seriously. It's just straight into

the mic. And it's because if you know how to

wield a microphone, the microphone will do a

lot of the work, especially if it's a nice mic.

But yeah. Absolutely. As a producer, how much

time do you put in the editing of the podcast

or of the show or whatever? Um, you want me to

address that sort of generally or for waveforms

specifically? I mean, you can do it for waveforms

specifically, but you can also do it generally

to whatever you want to do. You know, honestly,

the perfect answer that I could give to that

is as much time as it needs. Right. And the real

answer is as much time as I have. I don't know

if there's like a set amount of hours or anything

like that. But yeah, I feel like it's a constant

battle of how much time would it take to make

this as perfect as can be? How much time do I

actually have? Where's the compromise to where

I'm still delivering AAA quality stuff? You know?

Yeah. Usually, depending on the time of the actual

recording, I people have told me and I and I

agree and I will say this as well is more so

like, if your show's an hour and a half or if

your show's two hours, you're usually putting

in two and a half three hours of editing time.

Yeah, I think that's about right. Yeah, it's

it's usually about double of what the actual

show is going to be. Because you have to go in

and you have to make sure everybody's level do

you have to make sure There are no background

sounds. You have to make sure no cats are screeching

or no dogs are barking or no helicopters are

flying over. Invisible helicopters are flying

overhead out there in LA. If I had to give a

piece of advice to anyone who is just starting

to edit podcasts for the first time and try to

figure it out, and this was a piece of advice

given to me by an engineer named Alex Santilli,

who is one of the most brilliant mastering engineers

in the country, I think. He told me once that

if you find yourself adjusting someone's track

level by you're going up a decibel and then back

down a decibel and then back up a decibel and

you're making all these little tiny adjustments

like that, it means you're not using enough compression.

And you can save yourself a lot of time by using

a compressor in really smart ways. I edited a

podcast once. It was it was a live talk that

was getting turned into an episode of a podcast.

So it was two speakers on a stage in front of

an audience. Right. And only one of the speakers

microphones was on. Oh, no. Yeah. And so I got

one person sounded bright and full and clear.

Right. And then the other person was just getting

picked up in the first person's microphone. And

it was an hour and a half talk. And and so I

sat there. staring at these audio files. And

I thought to myself, I could either spend all

of my time for the next week, making little tiny

cuts and bringing up this person's level and

cross fading and going insane, trying to make

this even. Or I could not. And I ended up getting

it sounding really good with just five compressors.

five compressors in series was enough to like

even out these two people's voices to the point

where they're the same volume. That's amazing.

It took a lot of balancing and a lot of really

tiny adjustment, but it was still way less time

than going through this hour and a half recording

and boosting up the volume every time this person

opened their mouth. Yeah. So yeah, get good at

compression. That's my advice. Absolutely. All

right. So As a producer, do you prefer in person

recordings or stuff like this over the internet?

As a producer, I generally prefer in person recordings

because it means I get to put my dirty little

mitts all over everything. I've gotten pretty

good at, you know, rolling with the punches and

dealing with what people send me. But yeah, if

I can set up a mic in the exact place that I

want it. Um, I know how much time that'll save

me on the back end. And so I'll always prefer

that as a producer. Yeah. The funny thing is,

the one thing I don't understand about in -person

recordings, and I'm just going to use waveform

as an example, because like I said, I use, I

don't use, I watch, I watch the clips and I'm

like, They're all, you guys are all sitting there,

whether it's you and, and Adam or you and, and

whoever, or whether it's Andrew and Marquez,

or if they have a guest or whatever. You all

have headphones on and you all are talking. My

thing is you're all in the same room. Like what

are you hearing in the headphones that you're

not hearing outside of, like, if you took the

headphones off. essentially, like, I don't I've

never understood what is heard in the headphones

as somebody has talked, even in radio, I don't

get it. That's a great question. It's um, it's,

to me, no, I can speak for everybody here. It's

about hearing how the mic is picking you up.

A so you can keep track of how Loud you're speaking

and making sure you're in it speaking in a consistent

volume, but I've ever heard of this thing called

the proximity effect Yeah, so also keeping track

of the proximity effect So if I were to get really

close to the microphone, it's gonna get all like

bassy like this You could really hear the bass

in my voice Even though I'm talking like really

quietly and then if I get really far away from

the microphone you know, all that bass kind of

goes away. And the same thing happens if I rotate

the microphone. Yep. So now I'm talking into

the side of it, you're going to lose a lot of

the lower frequencies. Yeah. So using the headphones

is almost like an audio reference of what's happening

in the mic, I think is what most people are going

for. So so just again, as an example, if Marquez

is saying something to David and Andrew, he's

hearing himself. That's correct. Yeah. Everyone

is hearing themselves as well as everyone else.

And then actually, you know, the other reason

for the headphones is, um, we use the soundboard

on the road caster. If someone gets a trivia

question, correct. I'll play the correct sound

and I don't want to set up a speaker in the room

because that'll go through everyone's mics. Yep.

Yep. Okay. Yeah. Again, I'm not, I'm, I'm an

over the internet podcaster. I haven't been 14

years. So that's why I'm asking you these questions.

No, it's because I don't know like, That would

freak me out. No, it's a it's a great question.

Are you so can you hear yourself and your own

headphones right now? No, I hear you. Oh, that

is so interesting. Because I have it set up where

I can hear myself and I would feel so freaked

out if I didn't know what I sounded like right

now. I am so taking Mr. deep voice Ellis out

of context later. You totally have to. You totally

should. That's the classic NPR sound too. On

those NPR recordings, they get so close to the

mic. I think that's part of the vibe is feeling

like you're getting this real intimate thing.

Because our ears kind of work that way too, a

little bit too. So it actually feels like the

speaker is physically closer to you when you

listen like that. So I know you guys only have

waveform, but if MKBHD as a company had multiple

podcasts, as a listener and producer, would you

prefer one feed have everything or should each

type of show have its own feed? That's, that's

above my pay grade. Okay. All right. For me,

it's one of those things where as a listener

and a producer, I fully believe each thing should

have its own feed. If you're doing like, okay,

if you're going to do one about tech, if you're

going to do one about movies, if you're going

to do one, but it's all so different from each

other. Like, you know, no one's going to have

you put a full on episode by episode. review

series of He -Man and She -Ra or whatever, and

then put Transformers after that, that's strange.

Don't do that. Just have it all on different

feeds. One podcast at a time, folks. Don't try

to be me. That's definitely one of those things

that I love that I don't have to think about.

That I can just make content and people way,

way, way smarter than me get to make those decisions.

What is your favorite topic to discuss on a podcast?

If I'm opening my mouth and gabbing, I love talking

about audio. I just love it. Teaching, you know,

I love teaching audio. I'm very happy with my

current job. I feel like when I'm old, I want

to go back to teaching. Like when I'm like an

old man and I can just sort of like wax poetic

about sound. Um, but yeah, anytime I get to day

when it was on Skype, we were in horrible. Exactly.

Oh my god. What really honestly, Mike, what it's

going to be is back in my day before we had all

this fancy computational bullshit, we had discrete

data streams instead of this Dolby Atmos crap.

But yeah, so that's my favorite thing I also

love doing. the trivia on the show. That is like,

I love trivia. I love doing bar trivia. So yeah,

I think that's my favorite. Those are my favorite

times to open my mouth on the show. That's awesome.

That's awesome. And that sound round was probably

the best trivia I've heard in years. Oh, thank

you. I can't wait to figure out how to top it.

honestly, because we definitely want to do another

sound round. And it's like, how do we raise the

stakes? If you have any ideas for sounds to quiz

quiz the boys on definitely let me know because

because now that we've we've used all most of

the famous startup sounds like, I'm thinking

we'll do like, maybe ringtones or notifications

or themes. Like, I don't know. But whatever we

do, it has to be better. Yeah. I think ringtones

could work. I think I think sound effects could

work. I think so too. You know, and also like,

yeah, I think so too. I don't know where I was

going with that thought. See, it happens to the

best of us. Exactly. Yeah. But like, for me,

like, everyone should know what this is. Yeah.

Like everybody in the world. And I'm going to

turn my phone up a little, so it's going to be

a little bit louder. So I'll hold my phone away

from the microphone. Like, like it's classic.

Yeah, exactly. Like sound effects like that.

Sound like the, um, the, the, the worldly sound

effect that, that, uh, crash bandicoot used to

do or whatever, you know, like, but like those

kinds of sound effects, like that's my text alert.

Oh, that's awesome. But I needed the sound of

a spring. OK. What does a spring sound like?

It goes boing, right? Yep. And I was going through

just tons of sound effects of springs. So many.

You had no idea how many people have recorded

the sound of a spring. And none of them were

boingy enough. Yep. I was like, I need the boigneous

spring. And that's when I realized the sound

in my head wasn't actually the sound of a spring.

It was a sound of that. You ever heard of a jaw

harp? It's that thing you put in your teeth and

you. Yes. Oh, I was like, oh my gosh. Now, yeah,

just thinking about but yeah, I was like, it

was a real wake up, you know, a reminder moment

for me that what things sound like and what they

feel like they sound like are often very different

thing. Or here's another classic one. You know

what an eagle sounds like? Yep. Like a bald eagle.

Like, yeah. Right. Yeah. That's not an eagle.

That's just straight up not what an eagle sounds

like. Yeah. That's the sound of a hawk. That's

straight up the sound a hawk makes. Eagles sound

much more like chickens in real life. But if

you were making a movie like Top Gun and you

need a badass eagle sound, you're sure as hell

not going to have this valiant bird sounding

like a chicken. It's to the point where now if

you were to have an eagle on screen and it made

a real eagle noise, audience members would be

like, that feels wrong because it's not what

an eagle feels like. Absolutely. Oh boy. But

yeah, and it's funny you mentioned the spring

sound effect because my buddy Wes, he owns owns

and operates a Funko pop store in Nashville,

Tennessee called popping off toys. Part of their

logo is it's a P with the spring under it. So

I had him record an audio ad. Cause how I usually,

you know, pay people back for being on the show

or doing whatever for me or whatever. It's like,

make me an ad. I'll throw it in the show, you

know, that kind of thing. So that way it's like,

you know, it's, it's easy promotion. Like I'll

promote whatever. And I had him make one up.

I went through 35 different spring noises. I

picked out the top three. and he picked out the

very first one that I initially got. Like, okay,

that's it. That's the sound. Yup. Exactly. Yeah.

Were they boingy enough? Did you get a solid

boing out of them? Oh, yeah. It's a very good

boing. I'll probably play it in here somewhere.

I'll set it here or whatever else. Awesome. Have

you, I know Marquez has done several interviews

and things like that, but have you been able

to do any interviews with people? where I'm interviewing

them. Yes. No, no, unfortunately not every now

and then. When we're doing when we're interviewing

someone and maybe that interview isn't actually

going to be on camera. I'll sort of be in the

background instant messaging the interviewer

being like a second brain for them doing like

background research coming up with questions

on the fly taking notes for them. But no, it's

never me in the in the hot seat. Okay. Very cool.

Very cool. Was there ever a moment and I know

you're not you haven't been in podcasting so

long, but was there ever a moment where you were

just like, I'm done with this? Not yet. Thank

God. Thank God. Not yet. I definitely I've produced

shows that I feel like I've outgrown and it's

time for me to move on to something else. Right?

Yeah. But no, I definitely as a medium, I feel

like I feel very fortunate because I feel like

to an extent, I'm almost like participating in

the golden age of this thing. Just because everyone

listens to podcasts right now. Everyone does.

And especially now that people are going back

to work and they're commuting more, people are

listening to them more than ever. And yeah, very,

very lucky. Don't plan on going anywhere anytime

soon. Good. So you mentioned several pieces of

advice earlier, but what advice would you give

to new and veteran podcasters in the art of podcasting?

Oh, great question. Don't talk over each other,

which sounds easier than it actually is. Don't

say, yeah, right. Don't say I'm or hire a good

editor who can deal with that for you. There

it goes again. Yeah, I feel like most of my advice

would be in the audio realm of things and my

biggest advice would be Feel like you know how

to use a microphone like a professional chef

knows how to use their knives like really feel

like you understand everything about how a microphone

works and and how to deal with it and And from

there so much is gonna fall into place also I

guess I hope this doesn't confuse people. You

need less EQ than you think you do. Just across

the board, you just need less EQ than you think

you do. You know how they say, learn the rules

and then break them or whatever it is that people

say? I'm kind of mad about this. So for example,

On the waveform show, I'm generally not making

EQ cuts larger than three decibels. If I'm making

an EQ cut that is even three decibels, that's

like extreme for me. Okay. Except on the producer

mic, because the producer mic is facing a wall.

And it's a wall that's exactly parallel with

the mic. And so we get this big bump around 600.

Even though we're using the same mic as on the

table, there's so much more 600. And so I find

myself regularly making a six decibel cut at

around 600 for the producer mic, maybe 500, 600.

So there I am not following my own advice. But

that's a single cut I'm making. Yeah, so use

less EQ than you think you need. That's awesome.

Very cool. Very cool. So final question. Oh,

man. Already? Yeah, already. Where can the people

find your show? Oh, okay. So you can listen to

waveform with Marques Brownlee. Anywhere you

listen to podcasts, you can listen to it on YouTube.

We publish clips to all social media platforms.

It's it's really not that hard to find. If you

are interested in dance, I guess I don't work

for the show anymore. Oh my god. Yeah, I produced

my last episode for them in December. But I spent

a long time producing a show called called pillow

voices. It's called pillow voices. I'm really

proud of that work. So talk about it. Like, tell

me about like, because that was the archival

show. Right, right. But like, when I Right before

we started doing this, you know, you were kind

of telling me about it and I was like, how can

they do, and I don't even know if it's in, in

the record. I don't think it's in this episode,

but like, I'm like, how can they do a audio podcast

about dance? What is it? What is it? Just tap,

tap, tappity, tap, tap, tap. So, uh, so I'll

start from the beginning. So, um, in the turn

of the century and like, or not the turn of the

century, like 1920s, let's say there were these

two. dancers named Ted Shawn. And oh my gosh,

I'm so embarrassed that I can't remember the

other woman's name. Oops, this is so embarrassing.

Anyway, so Ted Shawn is the important person

here. So Ted Shawn was sort of a founding figure

in American modern dance. And he was He was,

he was gay, but I don't know if he maybe ever

would have admitted it. Um, and I don't, you

know, it was a different time, right? And, um,

and in the thirties, when the depression hit,

he bought this farm in Beckett, Massachusetts

in the Berkshires and took and started America's

first all male dance company, because this is

at a time where dancers were almost exclusively

women. And and men dancing was kind of really

frowned upon. And he started we started America's

first all male dance company and he moved them

out to this farm and he started this sort of

like dance commune, where during the summers,

they would wake up and spend the first half of

the day working the farm and then the second

half of the day rehearsing dance. And then in

the winter, when the farm was shut down, they

would tour the country performing. And this farm

over time turned into a dance school and also

a dance festival and became almost like this

dance Mecca in America, where a lot of America's

most famous dance minds came to work. And over

time, they started collecting all this really

brilliant material. And they started a dance

archive led by this guy. Norton Owen, who's a

national treasure. I worked with Norton and I

worked with Jen Edwards, the woman who pulled

me out of college and got me into podcasting.

We started bringing these materials to life that

were hidden in this archive. It's just brilliant

artists talking about brilliant things. I think

we have 45 episodes, 46 episodes. I say we, again,

I no longer work on the show. I was really proud

of that. It was one of the first gigs I ever

got and I wrote pretty much all the music that's

in the show. There's a few things by Bach here

and there that I did not write. definitely go

check that out. If you're interested in the fine

arts and dance, if you're not, you will probably

find it very boring. Other than that, Waveform

with Marques Brownlee is a riveting show. We

just finished a full game show episode, which

was so much fun. That's where you'll find my

stuff. You know what's funny? This is totally

off topic because we've been talking about podcasts

this whole time. My other side gig is I do light

shows and stuff at nightclubs. Oh, very cool.

Like totally separate from all the music stuff.

So if you're ever at a club in Philadelphia or

New York, maybe I'll be there doing the lights.

Awesome. Awesome. Very cool. Very cool. All right.

So I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you have

a trivia question that I can use before we go

to the next break? Did you do you want like,

is there a you want it to be like an audio question

or a podcasting question? Oh my god, I definitely

do. In the famous Beatles recording, I saw her

standing there. How many tracks were in the original

session? Well, folks, we'll find out right after

this. For over six years, my guests and I have

been discussing the soundtracks to our lives.

I'm Jesse Jackson, and I've had hundreds of fans

from around the world share their stories about

the power and magic of all kinds of music. If

you enjoy stories about joy, redemption, trials,

and ultimately triumph, then please check out

Set Listing Bruce, a Bruce Springsteen fan podcast.

Remember, there is magic in the night. Hi, I'm

Terry Smith, the host of Music Talks, the podcast

where I ask guests a simple but beguiling question.

Choose a song from each decade of your life and

tell me why these songs mean so much to you.

Guests and listeners love this format and if

you want to find out why, then take a listen

at musictalkspod .buzzsprout .com or use your

favourite podcast app. Just search on Music Talks

Terry Smith. If you'd like to be a guest on the

show and talk to me... Then send me a tweet at

MusicTalksPod. I look forward to doing some music

talking soon. Maybe you have some of his albums

on your shelf, or in your cowhorned Cadillac

right now. I'm Jesse Jackson. And I'm Sylvan

Graf. And we're going to dive in from A to Z.

Join us on the Perfectly Good Podcast. We're

going to discuss all of your favorites and uncover

some forgotten gems, from Aces Up Your Sleeve

to Zero House. Rate and debate every John Hyatt

song on the Perfectly Good Podcast. Have a little

faith. Hi, I'm Dan and I'm the host of The Rock

Nerd Radio Show, which airs live on HudsonRiverRadio

.com every Wednesday evening at 8 .30 p .m. Eastern

Standard Time. It also gets backed up as a podcast,

which you can find on your preferred podcasting

platform. Every week on my show, I talk about

all kinds of pop culture. I talk about music.

I talk about movies, TV, comics, collectibles.

All right. We are back here on Studio 2009's

podcast approach with Ellis Rovin. And yeah,

outside of Yellow Submarine and Paperback Writer

and a few others, I'm not the biggest Beatles

fan in the world. So I have no idea how many

tracks were used. So I believe that was still

in the Beatles two track days. Hopefully, if

I'm wrong, someone will correct me. But I'm I'm

almost positive that that was done. back in the

day where you had a rhythm track and a vocal

track. And that was all you got. Oh, I also remember

there's there isn't really like overdubbing in

the same way back then. So if you messed up a

take, you just you had to start all over. And

if you want to go, you know, even further down

Beatles trivia, there's a traditional British

folk song that dates back all the way to the

Middle Ages, called As I rove out, that's what

it's called. And, um, and that is actually what

the song I saw her standing on. I still saw her

standing there was based on. Very cool. Very

cool. All right, Ellis, thank you so much for

joining me. This was a blast as I knew it would

be. This was awesome. Yeah. This was so fun.

Tell your friends. All right. So I've got a standard

outro as everyone knows. Thank you for joining

us here Inside Studio 2009. If you'd like to

get in contact with us, we'll leave feedback

for the show. There are several ways to do so.

Visit the website geekcastradio .com where you

can listen to and comment on all of our content.

Send us email to feedback at GeekCastRadio .com.

You can check us out on any pod catching client

you choose to use. You can follow us on Twitter

at GeekCastRadio for the network at itsitsstudio2009

all one word for the show. I am at TF2 and Mike,

would you like to give out your Twitter? Yeah,

I'm at Ellis Roven at E L L I S R O V I N. I

don't have very many followers. So if you follow

me, you'll be one of the select few. I'm probably

going to cut that out and put in Homer Simpson.

Awesome. Pick up a fan on Facebook, go to facebook

.com slash Geek Cast Radio Network and also check

out Studio 2009 podcast over there as well. Join

us next time when we're either going to be talking

about TV, because we haven't done a lot of TV

on the show. We've done a lot of movie stuff

and everything else, but we're going to talk

about some sort of TV topic or something. I have

no idea what's going on in the month of January.

For now, I am TFU and Mike with... Oh, with Ellis

Roven. You'll hear us back in the studio soon.

So also keeping track of the proximity effect

So if I were to get really close to the microphone,

it's gonna get all like bassy like this You can

really hear the bass in my voice, even though

I'm talking like really quietly That's it I'll

take boom