Western Retrospective: Red River

This is Jason Marsden, voice of Duke from G .I.

Joe Renegades. You're listening to the Geekcast

Radio Network. Yo, Joe! Hello, welcome to episode

251 of The Cinema Geeks. I am... one of your

cinema geeks optimists so i'm just gonna keep

doing the numbering dan as usual is the comic

con series how you doing dan hey how you doing

yeah we were just talking off mic is that what

they call it uh a little bit ago about how like

most like new podcasts don't do numbering but

like we're in the old ways where you always did

a number i don't know there's a thing everyone

did so i feel like the older i get and like the

more we do it the more i'll probably screw up

what number it even is supposed to be and then

we'll release them in all different orders and

we got to do like the the marvel comics renumbering

after a while go back to number one you know

redo it all i know we have 200 episode 250 and

this is all going to be not valid by the time

this comes out but at the moment that we're recording

250 is live which is our episode on the odyssey

but 248 and 249 are not live so they'll go live

and then this is 251 and and then we'll be back

in order i think i don't know nobody keeps track

of the numbers yeah i feel like it's all just

you know like how many you've done total or something

i don't know that's that's also like what marvel

would do they would do these magic somehow they

get to like the the uh celebration number even

though we didn't do it we ended up having an

extra long episode but not because of that right

but yeah anyways it was it was a party enough

just to make 250 the odyssey definitely but what

are we what are you talking about today well

if the no no you're good i figured if the numbering

wasn't confusing enough that we shouldn't also

confuse people by just doing like multiple retrospectives

throwing in new movie reviews and then just like

they'll never know what they're gonna get when

they tune in except for that the episodes are

all titled so i guess they will um so we're going

back into our western retrospective for this

episode so obviously you've heard that we've

started a planet of the apes retrospective where

we'll be kind of working our way through those

10 films and you can obviously check that out

if you're a planet of the apes or a sci -fi fan

as we kind of traverse those we might do some

more new content here and there just kind of

scattered out as it becomes available where dan

and i actually get to see the same movie or something

like that it's it's increasing the frequency

of that happening is increasing dan like i feel

like both of our um our kids are both like getting

to the age where it's making it a little bit

more feasible so and stuff just goes to streaming

so fast so you know there's that too so but today

we're into the westerns and we're starting a

brand new block that's kind of a harken back

to where we started so we started this whole

journey off with kind of the john ford block

which was you know some classic films like stagecoach

the searchers the man who shot liberty valence

and then we kind of went different ways we looked

at spaghetti westerns remakes versus originals

we just finished an overlooked western section

where we talked about mccabe and mrs miller johnny

guitar and the naked spur and now we're going

back into like a second round of not just not

john ford films but but classic western films

kind of as an overarching theme here so we have

four of them that we're going to be covering

which include rio bravo shane high noon and then

today's topic which is red river i know you've

already watched this once i believe you watched

it now twice uh for this in the last like year

or so but the interesting thing about this one

before we get to the facts and our opinions and

all that is this will represent the oldest film

that we've covered outside of stagecoach so stagecoach

was 1939 this is 1948 we will have a couple more

films that we'll cover throughout this retrospective

one from 1943 and another one from 1948 but otherwise

as of this point it's the second oldest of the

films we've covered um just to set the stage

before we get to the facts dan what is your experience

with red river have you seen it twice now leading

up to this yeah so i did i so early in the year

i was you know we were in the westerns and i

was just in the western mood it was it was available

streaming on one platform so I ended up watching

it and really not to give it away, but I'm like,

oh, I kind of wish we included this. And then,

you know, we decided to, as we do, reconfigure

the retrospective. And you mentioned like you

brought this up as one to go over. I'm like,

so I was all for it. So, yeah, I did rewatch

it because it was that was like back in February,

I think. So just to refresh on what happened

and all that good stuff. I have not seen this

one, nor have I seen any of the four films in

this block. So they're all going to be first

time watches. This is like one of the reasons,

like there's been so many that like, I wanted

to do this for, to like knock out those blind

spots within this Western genre. And this, this

block is like a good example of, of why I was

interested in doing this whole retrospective

to begin with. So it'll be interesting to get

into some more John Wayne talks, some more kind

of classic Westerns from that time period. But

before we do any of that, Dan's going to lay

the foundation for. our episode today and once

he gets done with that we'll come back and start

giving you guys our our breakdown in our opinion

so uh let's let dan take it over and we'll take

it from there The Duke is back as we return to

some more classic westerns. This time we're taking

a look at Red River from 1948, directed by Howard

Hawks. In the film, Thomas Dunstan, played by

John Wayne, is this tough and ambitious Texas

rancher who is determined to build the largest

cattle operation he can. He settles in Texas

and establishes a massive herd, and he also raises

his adopted son Matthew, played by Montgomery

Cliff. Years later, after the Civil War, Dunton

decides to drive thousands of cattle from Texas

north to Missouri, where he believes he can get

a much better price. The journey is a perilous

one, and also enormous with the amount of cattle

that they're driving, involving dozens of cowboys.

At first, Dunton is a respected but demanding

leader. As the drive continues, however, he becomes

increasingly obsessed with completing the obtaining

absolute control. Food becomes scarce, the men

become exhausted, and tensions rise. Dunson responds

to challenges with increasingly harsh punishments.

Matthew, who has grown into a capable young man

himself, eventually begins to challenge Dunson's

leadership. When Dunson orders an extreme punishment

after some cowboys result against his authority,

Matthew refuses to go along with him. He takes

control of the cattle even and drives and leads

the men towards Kansas where they can sell the

herd. Dunson becomes furious and vows to hunt

Matthew down and kill him. The second half of

the movie essentially becomes a father -son conflict.

Matthew is trying to build a new future based

upon cooperation, while Dunson is consumed by

pride, authority, and a determination to just

prove himself. Eventually, Dunson tracks Matthew

to a town in Kansas, where the two finally have

a brutal fistfight. Just when it appears they

may kill each other, Tess, played by Joanne Drew,

intervenes and forces them to recognize that

despite everything that has happened, they generally

care about one another. dunson and matthew reconcile

and the movie ends with a suggestion that their

relationship and the cattle empire they built

can possibly continue howard hawks originally

offered the role of thomas dunston to gary cooper

cooper though turned it down because he thought

the character was too ruthless and might damage

his image as a heroic leading man montgomery

cliff and john wayne apparently weren't big fans

of one another politically and personally they

were just the opposite and it accounted for a

lot of tension on set. They reportedly agreed

to avoid discussing politics, but the relationship

was never great. Even later, Howard Hawks directed

Rio Bravo with John Wayne and Walter Brennan.

They offered a role to Montgomery Cliff, but

he turned it down mainly due to the relationship

issues they had in the past. That part eventually

went to Dean Martin. There are a lot of cowboys

in Red River, and just like the current team,

they also really haven't won anything major in

a while. while, but that's besides the point.

Hawks did realize this and thought audiences

would have trouble remembering them, so at the

beginning of the cattle drive, he made sure to

film close -ups of the principal cowheads, giving

each of them a distinctive hat. as well as a

distinctive appearance. Red River was very well

received when it came out in 1948, both critically

and commercially. It reportedly was the third

highest grossing film of 1948, earning more than

$4 million on its initial release. Wayne was

already a star, but Red River helped convince

people that he could actually be a real actor

rather than a charismatic cowboy star. it also

got two oscar nominations one for best film editing

and one for best writing its story and reputation

have only grown and it's looked at as one of

the best westerns ever produced but what do kevin

and i think do we agree do we disagree well back

to us to discuss All right. So we have all of

the facts for the Red River, Dan. And I am curious.

I know you said that you were wishing that we

had included this to begin with. So I assume

that you're somewhat positive. But what was it

like now after watching some of these films from

multiple decades, right? We've seen films from

the 50s now, the 60s, the 70s, the 2000s, the

2010s. And now we go back for our technically

our first one from the 40s. and back to, you

know, kind of classic John Wayne and things of

that nature. So what was like your initial impression

on the first watch of Red River? Did anything

change also when you did the second watch kind

of leading up to this record? Yeah, what I think

I noticed the most is, I know when we talked

about Spaghetti Westerns and how Spaghetti Westerns

were seen as like, oh, they're a bit more complicated.

They're not as white hat, black hat. They're

heroes that... are a bit more ambiguous when

it comes to morality. I think there are certain

elements to it, but going back to this, I actually

thought, like, I think maybe we don't, or that

type of mindset isn't necessarily giving enough

credit to some of these older Westerns. I don't

think these were as straightforward or as basic

within their understanding of good and bad. And

I think this... being one of the best examples

of it like john wayne here like when people talk

about his best performances or the characters

where you feel like he goes beyond the the type

of character people know him from i felt like

this was up there as somewhat of a departure

especially character wise compared to really

anything you know people mentioned that with

the searchers i like the you know the searchers

of course his role in that he's very unlikable

certainly obviously racist and elements there.

And then, of course, with True Grit, you know,

with Rooster Cogburn and like he was, you know,

a trucker and things like that. But I thought

the character here, Thomas Dunstan, was perhaps

his most harsh character to date. He was very

unforgiving. There isn't much hero there. You

know, John Wayne, you think this cowboy hero,

he's not really a hero at all within this. Maybe

at the time, because he was sticking to his guns.

There were some people who would see heroism

in that, but generally I was actually rather

taken back by just how much of a jerk he was

and how there wasn't that classic redemption

arc in the sense of they weren't trying to go

through and see him grow into a more complete

person per se. So that took me back, and it's

a very... Epic tale, for sure. And you mentioned

when it becomes a Western, what you expect when

it comes to gunfights and things like that. And

this is cowboys being actual cowboys. So it's

living up to the name, except maybe the football

team, because they actually get to their destination,

even though it's off, not exactly where they

decided to go at the beginning. But yeah, I was

rather going in, because I didn't know when I

watched it. Watched it on the log. I didn't know

anything about it. I was like, oh, it's going

to be a classic John Wayne film. The first time

I watched it, I was taken aback by how much it

wasn't that impressed. And seeing that even the

second time around, I feel like I even noticed

that even more. So I think I would put this even

as an experience, maybe not craft -wise, but

its approach to the character. I think it's even

one of the strongest ones we've seen within all

the Wayne films we have watched yet within this

retrospective. But what did you think of it?

i think it's interesting a couple things i'll

start with kind of what you were leaving off

with there with john wayne because i think he

gets this reputation or maybe that's just me

from an ignorant standpoint of not being alive

when he was you know at the peak of his his uh

acting and i haven't done you know he's kind

of a blind spot for me kind of going into this

retrospective but i always thought he had kind

of the reputation or the legacy of like people

painted him almost as one note as you know someone

who does a lot of the same things like we've

even seen some of his films where you know he

repeats the same line multiple times and like

you he definitely talks the same he's not you

know taking on he's not one of those actors is

going to try to take on a different accent and

be a different person overall right so we i think

he's always been painted as kind of one note

and the more i'm seeing of some of these films

i'm like is that a fair assessment because i

feel like we've seen shades of different things

uh throughout a number of his films and especially

something like this where you know he he is the

protagonist i guess you would say but definitely

not a hero so and definitely not almost not even

an anti -hero like he's almost further than that

you know what i mean like he's just not a nice

guy in almost anything it's not just like he's

crass and rude and doesn't and you know is a

hero that doesn't have a super great moral compass

it's like i feel like there's more to it to that

so like i feel like he's getting he's got layers

here and i feel like a couple of other films

have shown a couple different sides of him but

yeah i think this is like the most different

we've seen him overall and i found that interesting

another thing i was really interested going into

this one was this is howard hawks first western

and I've seen quite a bit of him now going through

the, and I believe you have to going through

the Cary Grant retrospective and some things

like that. So like he, he did bring it up, baby.

He did, uh, his girl Friday. He did only angels

have wings, which I believe you caught up with

recently. He did. Uh, I was a male war bride,

which was a Cary Grant film monkey business.

Uh, so I was interested to see like, what was

his take going to be on? a western and he does

other westerns as well because he does real bravo

eventually and and some other things but i was

i was kind of curious how that was going to work

because i had only seen kind of more of these

i mean only angels have wings isn't slapstick

but bringing up baby and his girl friday definitely

are and monkey business is you know definitely

a comedy and i was a male war bride definitely

is you know mostly comedy slash romantic comedy

type fair so i was interested to see like how

that was gonna work and i will say that had i

not known he directed this after watching it

i would not have guessed he was the director

like i don't sense a lot of those elements that

we saw in these other films in this one so it's

kind of interesting to see how he took on this

other genre and one thing that really kind of

took me with this film is and i don't remember

how do you remember how long this one is full

hours just over two hours i want to say something

like that i think it's like an two hours and

six minutes it's a little over i'm trying to

get the exact time limit but it's well there's

two versions yeah there is yeah the original

version was much longer and they cut it down

trying to see what the two hours and 13 minutes

okay and so there is some some length to it right

like especially for you know time period you

know we've got more short movies back then it

seemed like i mean there was epics that were

long as well but it was something that took me

back is that this film feels like feels smells

senses like he pounds like everything that you

could possibly put in like it's a lived in western

it feels like to me like it just feels like they

did a lot of things to capture the essence of

of the west um of the myth or the the legend

of what the west was like almost as well but

not from like a hollywoodized standpoint just

like a lot of elements that you would like when

you think of the west and you were to like describe

things like if i was just saying like we're gonna

make a western like What are elements we should

consider? And we just had a brainstorming session.

We wrote down a whole bunch of things. This one

checks a lot of the boxes, I feel like. And another

interesting thing that this one does that we

haven't seen, and we've covered... How many films

have we covered now? At least 15, right? Yeah,

this is our 16th film. Is this the first film

that's dealt with an actual cattle drive? oh

trying to think well 310 to yuma had like cattle

within it like they they played a part in it

per se but they weren't like right it wasn't

the cat one is a stage coach is a stage coach

journey searching we're out searching for somebody

right like man who shot liberty valence is more

of a personal thing you know against each other

yeah i think this would have to be yeah definitely

so like it's weird that we've gotten 16 or 15

other westerns that we've watched and and to

me a cattle drive is like that's the essence

of the west right like that's one of the major

themes and we've gone 15 films without even touching

on it and this one doesn't just touch on it like

it it gives me all of the things like it speaks

to all of the senses when it comes to that the

cattle drive the west and all of these other

elements that maybe we haven't touched on so

far in some of these other films so i thought

that was kind of an interesting thing to kind

of just uh be submerged in as as i watched the

film and this is gonna maybe sound i'm not gonna

score any like cool points for this but i've

never been concerned too much about cool points

so i guess that's fine um growing up you know

my dad was a history teacher and a drama teacher

and you know he did that for a long time so i

was definitely very much like surrounded by historical

things like topics subjects shows music etc and

um we also had i don't know if you're familiar

with this or if anybody that is listening will

be or if this is just like more niche or just

like makes me look old but you know what the

we sing series is it was like a series of cassette

tapes okay so it was a series of cassette tapes

back in the i'm gonna guess the 80s um And there

was a variety of them and they came with a book

and the book had pages that had the lyrics and

the songs. And then it also had like right brief

writings and things like that. And they had different

versions of it. So there was one that was like,

we sing America. And then there was one that

was like, we sing around the campfire. And I

don't know, there was like four or five different

versions of, of this. And. they would have like

you know cassettes had a side a and a side b

so they would have you know side a would be a

certain theme and side b would be another theme

well there's one that's called we sing america

and the first theme is more like patriotic stuff

so you have like the star spangled banner and

the pledge of allegiance and um i don't know

my country tis of thee or something or america

the beautiful or whatever like some of them are

like song songs and some of them are just kind

of like folky songs And the other side of that,

and they would have readings of snippets of speeches

from the Gettysburg Address or John F. Kennedy

or Jefferson or Washington or Lincoln or whatever.

So you got a little bit of history in there as

well. And it was all kids singing, right? Or

adults that were singing for kids, making voices

and stuff like that. And side B of that We Sing

America, instead of being all the patriotic fare,

which also included all the armed forces songs

and things like that, side B was... more of like

the west and like the the railroads and like

uh pioneer life and the gold rush and like stuff

like that and they had all of these songs that

kind of were folk songs none of these were like

songs that you would see like an actual artist

sing unless it was like back in the day with

like some super classic western singers maybe

but this is not something that you were going

to hear like alan jackson singing i don't think

or anything like that like you know like she'll

be coming around the mountain and and stuff like

that um makes sense and we listened to this a

lot when we were growing up because it was just

a cassette tape we could put on and played forever

and there was like four different ones so you

never got bored of them and whatnot this movie

samples or features bits and pieces or chunks

of like at least six of the songs that were on

this cassette tape So it was, like, an interesting

experience watching the film and then also having

it, like, conjuring up these memories of, like,

listening to this tape. Like, it has Oh Susanna.

It has She'll Be Coming Around the Mountain.

It has a song called I Ride in Old Paint. It

kind of has some things that go somewhat reference

the Get Along Little Doggies and some of the

Cattle Run. So it's the soundtrack to this movie,

more than just, like, the main two songs that

are, like, recorded and featured, like, more

so like as heavy parts of the soundtrack has

all of these other elements and then you mix

that all up with like the sound of the cattle

and the sound of the campfire and the sound of

like all of what's all these people are doing

which they don't hide in this movie it's like

there's a soundtrack of making you feel like

you're there so like i don't know i just felt

like really immersed into the setting so like

it worked for me in that level nice yeah it certainly

feels very of the time and again it helps that

we mentioned this with the naked spur where it's

shot on location compared to like those that

maybe were shot on set and this you know elements

were i don't know for sure looking at my research

i don't know how much was shot on location at

least felt that way or at least they're using

cattle for sure like the massive amounts of cattle

that they have so I couldn't imagine them bringing

that amount of cattle to a Hollywood set. That

would have been a bit crazy. But I certainly

think the authenticity you mentioned is there

because of a bunch of those elements. And because,

like you mentioned, it's about raiding cattle.

It feels like a conflict that would be of that

time and how it comes about. And seeing them

just trying to figure, you know, there's so much

unknown. Obviously, we live in a day with GPS.

There's so much we know about when it comes to

traveling and how it's just kind of going off

of gumption, going off of things they've heard

and what that could mean and the conflict that

ensues. It's a good... Also, you see a lot of

old versus new within this, of course. Montgomery

Cliff being the more empathetic, the more...

I think open to reason, maybe open to compromise

compared to like the John Wayne and their, their

back and forth. And apparently in real life,

they weren't huge fans of one another, which

you could understand considering their backgrounds

and everything like that. But I do think that

their issues off screen actually think enhanced

on screen because there is, there is a bit of

a tension there throughout in that until we get

to that final climax where they do have that,

that infamous showdown. And I do like how, like

I mentioned, within it, they don't try to, like,

it's not a redemption story. You mentioned that,

like, John Wayne is the protagonist, or, like,

he is the villain. He kind of is. Like, that

is, he's the one causing most of the conflict.

But I just, it doesn't have a lot of the tropes

that you would associate. You mentioned, like,

everything you would want in a Western. or the

things that you associate with westerns and a

lot of the things that you associate aren't here

but i wasn't missing them ever yeah i think it's

more of like the i don't know it feels much less

hollywood eyes than like some of the other stuff

that that we've not necessarily i guess that

was more in the remake section but like you know

what i mean like some of the stuff that i appreciated

when we were watching some of those originals

versus the remakes like i feel like also are

here like it doesn't have to do a whole bunch

of extra it's like you feel like this is a story

or a movie that's just being handed down like

one campfire story like discussion from to another

like it's not something that has all the pomp

and circumstance of maybe something else at least

i didn't feel that way and even though it's covering

an expansive territory and we're dealing with

a lot of cattle it does find a way to to like

individualize everybody and make it feel like

you know for the most part the people that you're

on this journey with which i feel like could

have been a miss if not handled carefully and

i did read some stuff that like i don't know

if it was hawks himself or somebody like basically

went out of the way out of their way in the beginning

to like try to give as many close -up shots of

the people assembled give them different distinguishing

features or hats or or something about their

like visual cues so that you didn't get lost

and just like wait i don't know any of these

guys from any of these guys it's just one mob

and i i don't know who's who because you're not

going to get a lot of you know they do use names

here and there but i felt like they did a good

job of kind of painting each character as their

own and letting you somewhat get to know them

so it felt like you were on this journey with

them in a way yeah i i agree and it Every other

characters have, like you mentioned the, the,

you know, Howard Hawks made sure to capture all

their likeness. So, you know, who everyone is,

you have a good sense, even with costume design

and how that looks, but everyone has a very distinct

face, you know, and everyone has, you get those

moments of them just doing and like hanging out

with one another. And they're not really worried

about necessarily hoarding the plot. They're

not really concerned about like, okay. what is

the you know the next move just giving you some

good character moments like the the card game

with walter brennan losing his teeth and the

conflict with you know with uh uh the cheap uh

wow i think his name was in the move i forget

but like that they're a little back and forth

you had all these nice little tiny relationships

like these little like personality within this

group of individuals so when things did type

to kind of go awry you were invested in it because

you you knew this group and you Even that core

trio of Nene, Matt, and Thomas, when they started

kind of not seeing eye to eye, it meant something.

So it was not the best father figure in the world.

But maybe not the worst you've ever seen. Yeah,

that's true. I think another thing that we get

here is I think the, whether it be the writers

with the screenplay or the director or, you know,

whatever, that they trusted the material enough

where they didn't have to like inject tension

because they knew like their story was naturally

going to have tense moments because a cattle

drive is not easy. Like this is like the more

Western films you see. the less likely you are

to answer the question like i don't know if anyone's

ever asked you this or you've posed this like

it's just kind of like the hypothetical like

if you could take yourself out of your time period

and go back and live in any other time period

like which do you choose don't pick the west

like don't do it because that stuff was hard

like yeah you're you don't like you don't have

the comforts of today you're dealing with lots

like all the things they do it they have stampedes

right like they're dealing with hunger exhaustion

there's people trying to desert there's death

there's weather because weather is something

you can't escape especially back then we don't

you don't just have cars and houses to protect

yourself right um attacks from native americans

you know plays a little bit of a part here um

not to mention you know just natural leadership

tension like you're talking about with whether

we follow dunson or whether we don't and where

do we draw that line and stuff like that so it

just has like these natural things that are going

to cause all of this um stuff you know you have

probably you know sickness and things of that

which i didn't list but you know that can kind

of lead to that whether it be diseases normal

sicknesses so like you have all these elements

that are going to provide the tension for you

and i appreciate that they just kind of like

let them kind of go through there and uh have

those be natural tense points but then you know

they're focused a lot on the the interpersonal

connections between you know the main three like

you're talking about and and some of the peripheral

like crew members that are or cattle drivers

ranchers whatever you want to call that are along

with this journey so i thought it was nice that

they kind of just like let those things speak

for themselves in a way and i do think it kind

of gave you that feel for like it's almost akin

to the early explorers that are just getting

on a boat and just setting sail and being like,

well, I hope this works out. Like it's going

to take like a few years and then we don't know

what's on the other end. Like that's almost like

it is like when you set off for this cattle drive

back here, because you don't know exactly, you

know what the path is. You don't know what you're

going to come into contact with. You don't know

how it's going to go. And like, I get that there

does need to be some, someone guiding and someone

like keeping everybody in line and, and someone

to police, like when people get, uh, you know,

a little bit stir crazy or, or different things.

But, you know, I think this movie does a couple

of things. It's number one, like tackling authoritarianism

and what the line is where you start to stand

up for yourself. But then you're also talking

about like what you just mentioned, the dealing

with like this whole father son dynamic as well.

And like, can the father handle the fact that

eventually the little boy, that he adopts and

raises and and teaches and everything like becomes

an equal or becomes a better than or becomes

just as worthy and like can how does that change

that dynamic and like how do you react to that

and you know it's like whatever when the apprentice

becomes the master type thing right like it has

a little bit of that in there as well like did

you see any other themes that kind of really

spoke to you did you see it more about like just

a group of people and like how much they'll follow

directions before they push back or did the father

son kind of or was it like a dual theme that

you were dealing with the father son certainly

i do think it was what i saw was like a very

much old verse new in the sense of yeah the like

the stubbornness the idea of knowing it all and

how that that is wrapped in within a father son

dynamic where You have a father who thinks that

his experience and knowledge is all that matters,

is unwilling to see compromise based upon really

nothing beyond just stubbornness. And the way

he deals with people, both on a punishment side,

we see when people kind of rebel or they have

the people who run off or what have you. And

then how... we get like basically you know the

the tort not torture i mean torture might be

a strong word but certainly there is capital

punishment that is done um and literally death

as well but also seeing that and perhaps there

is another way and the destruction that that

leads and trying to find a way that maybe we

do need to shift focus or maybe we do need to

just not go the way where we're told because

that's where we're going because ultimately that

maybe though it is it is okay to change course

so seeing seeing that back and forth on like

a holistic standpoint of the old verse new and

the old ways versus new ways and then incorporating

within this kind of found family dynamic i thought

was quite effective the only thing i thought

i we haven't really talked about was yet so far

because there are some love interests within

this um on a couple different levels so I was

curious what your take is on those because we

get some of that in the beginning and a bit at

the end, but how did that impact you at all?

I thought that was a worthy element to add. It's

interesting how they had to do that because you're

thinking this is a movie that, I don't know,

call it 80 % of it or 90 % of it is going to

be a group of men on a journey. how do you find

a way to incorporate that part of their lives

right because it does exist like it's not like

these guys just always live just with guys and

stuff like that right there is there's women

in the occasion in the equation somehow so it

was interesting to see like how they were going

to do that and you know obviously they have this

like traveling troop or whatever that they they

kind of find a way to get in there and maybe

it's i don't know maybe it's not natural maybe

it is i i didn't really get caught up with it

because i was definitely like i felt like there

was enough there between the female characters

and the male characters that it did what it needed

to do to paint that side of those characters

and to add that element into their into their

psyche i guess so to speak and i felt like the

the chemistry was enough there the one i mean

there's a little mystery there as well like it

wasn't just like hit you over the head with stuff

it was like how sincere is this or how does this

work so i thought it was like delicately handled

to the point where it worked for me like there

was enough there the chemistry was enough there

that i bought it and i think it added to like

another layer of of this story without feeling

completely shoehorned or like hey we just had

to fill it fit in a love interest to fit in a

love interest like i didn't get that vibe from

it um which could have easily happened yeah i

i created i don't think it was completely ineffective

i do think it's probably one of the weaker elements

and i do feel like it's it was a way an easy

not an easy kind of an easy way out near the

end because they needed to come to a conclusion

um and like it was a way to be able to define

that conclusion without it leading to like the

ultimate you know death what have you to give

both of those characters a way out but i also

think on the other side it does at least give

john wayne's character thomas a bit more as a

character because he isn't just you like to the

point where you wonder like when why would anyone

ever want to be around this guy like like he

wasn't so unlikable or so one no at the the other

direction where you saw that okay he does have

human emotion at the time he he is he's caring

he has those elements he's a full person per

se but he's right now he's just kind of very

stuck in his ways but he can be more than that

so i do think it worked as that aspect of it

but i do think you know it's definitely not the

strength it's also not the focus it does what

it needs to do yeah that's pretty much that much

more so i was i was curious too because i feel

like there's two i don't know like two pivotal

moments in the film that either you're going

to accept or you're gonna have a problem with

maybe and i was curious how your take is on both

of these elements so one i believe is You have

John Wayne's character, Dunson, who is definitely

the authority in this and definitely wielding

that power and all of these things. And you have

his protege or his son that's coming along and

has a lot to offer and eventually is almost forming

a mutiny against him. And Dunson has a very extreme

reaction to that. and i wonder what you're taking

is like do you find it wholly earned and believable

that based on what we've seen to the character

and based on his history with his you know quote

unquote child or son um that he would go that

far when faced with this not to the point where

he's gonna like get him back or get his people

back or be angry or whatever but he's outright

like saying he's going to kill him yeah like

how did you feel because i feel like that's like

a critical moment where as an audience you either

accept that and and move on for the rest of the

journey or like it may be jarring yeah i mean

it's certainly jarring but i also a part of me

thought i don't think he actually means it in

a way like people you know in the sense of People

will say things and maybe not fully mean it.

But I also think it is fitting within where that

character was in a mental, because think about

like this cattle was his identity. Like he went

like the moment that the, he gets that land,

he, everything he is doing, everything he is

building himself up for everything, like all

of his actions, even probably, you know, adopting

Matt was for this moment. And it's being taken

away from him. And so it's his identity. It's

his self -worth. So because of that, he has that

reaction. So I bought it as a reaction. I thought

it was fitting. And you saw that he is willing

to go those places. And to me, it made sense

on a character standpoint based upon who he was,

the stakes involved, and all those elements.

but I never believed it in the sense of, I don't

think the character fully believed it. Like I

think he was, I don't think if, when it came

down to it, like would he actually follow through?

Probably not, but he would make everyone think

he would. Like, I think part of it too may have

even been, you know, the expectations. Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. What about you? How did it

work for you? I mean, I do, I did find it jarring

in the moment. Like, obviously when it first

happens you're like whoa like there's getting

mad and then there's wanting to kill somebody

yeah we all get mad at our kids for different

things but that's a little jump to killing so

um so yeah at the beginning like when he first

kind of goes there i was like oh like i don't

know if i'm like cool with that but then like

i think you're right like it's you know it's

in the heat of the moment he's you know putting

on a uh an image that he's maintaining he's he's

very invested in like obviously this whole pursuit

of his whole life and things of that nature and

what his legacy will be and then things of that

nature so like i i get like saying stuff in the

heat of the moment and i think that somewhat

works with like what i would get to then as my

second a moment that either works for you or

doesn't and that's like the ending overall and

spoiler alert this movie is 80 years old so um

i don't know why you would click on this if you

haven't watched it already i mean they got spoiler

just the facts so they're fine yeah okay sweet

um so that leads to the ending because i think

if you kind of take your dance that he's saying

something in anger it's not necessarily like

something he would follow through with and like

it it's because of where he is in that exact

moment in the film and you know in his his own

art of what he's doing then i think that makes

the ending work more or work enough where you

kind of get that but i was curious did you have

any sense that it was unearned too sentimental

not necessary or did you feel like this was like

a good ultimate culmination of kind of this father

-son story i thought it was a great culmination

i i really loved the ending i thought it was

strong in the sense of seeing it build up get

to where it needs to go and again in my in the

back of my head i'm always thinking like i don't

think he would ever fully follow through with

it and then kind of them coming to that conclusion

as much as you know sometimes you need to butt

heads and fit and get through it uh even if you

have to drag the other person along so i i thought

it was very effective and there was a lot of

tension there like just the way john wayne was

walking like he was walking with the purpose

he usually does but even more so so i was it

worked for me like i mentioned perhaps you could

argue maybe it's a little bit of a comp out utilizing

you know a third party to make them kind of see

what they need to see in order to come to this

sort of compromise but i thought it was earned

enough based upon everything that was built it

felt very satisfying but what did you think so

i was i guess trying to uh relate things like

Like I, I obviously, you know, lost my father

when I was young. So I never had, I never got

to that moment where your parents or your father

stops becoming your, or stops being your like

hero, so to speak. Like, you know, I feel like

a lot of moms and dads, you know, especially

are like, you kind of looked on and like, you

look at them on like a pedestal and like they're,

they're infallible and they don't do anything

wrong. Or, you know, they're this hero figure.

And I think you have that until a certain point.

And then, you know, reality like shatters that

at some point. you know, I didn't have that.

So it's, it's something that it's harder for

me to relate to in a father son standpoint. So

what I instead kind of viewed it as is like when

you have that best friend that you spend too

much time with and it gets to the point where

you're ready to kill each other. And then you,

it almost like comes to a culmination where you

have to have that like dust up, like maybe not

an all out fight, but like you have that. whatever

that wrestling match or that like physical tussle

or something like that and then like immediately

after that you're fine right yeah it's like the

typical guy argument or something like when you

have a beef with somebody like you only hold

it in so long you blow up at each other and then

you're best friends again or then you're cool

with each other like it kind of reminded me a

little bit of that uh dynamic so like i got it

from that standpoint And I think like too, if

you're buying in the fact that he's not meaning

that he, you know, he's not really going to kill

him at any point in this film that, that it makes

sense because it's like, it's basically, it takes

him to this point where the whole town quote,

I guess, you know, for lack of better term, the

whole town's watching. Yeah. And there's no other

way to get out of it. Like it's almost like your,

your bluff is being called. on a big stage and

like really he has no other way to continue the

the ruse right like he has no way to continue

the fact that he's actually so mad that he would

he would want to kill this this kid that you

know has been his son basically uh for the whole

film and things like that and i think also the

fact that deep down he knows that he his son

was right probably right like he got the cattle

to where they needed to go he did the things

like at some point the pride fades away and you

realize like okay like i was probably wrong yeah

and so i think that's a natural like culmination

so like the ending did not bother me i was kind

of intrigued when i read a couple of you know

people that uh reviews or different things online

that said like they thought it maybe wasn't earned

or too sentimental or kind of you know to wrap

up with a bow type nice neat but like i feel

like it was all earned based on where these characters

naturally were progressing with each other yeah

i agree i mean it it is abrupt but in in one

sense where you know it's they don't like slowly

talk another down but i also feel like that's

not these characters these are characters that

are very much you know they see one thing one

way you know another so it's i felt it was a

fitting way that those characters would react

it didn't feel like out of character where they

would have this like heart -to -heart speech

that's like that's not who they are they're gonna

they're gonna figure it out and then i'm like

okay we're good like you said like you do the

little head nod like after a fight like you do

a little head nod and like you're like all right

we're good and then hug it out and then you're

that's all you need to do so i felt like it was

very you make a good comparison with like the

friends i think that's a very good good uh allegory

to what happened here yeah the last thing i wanted

to bring up on my end was you know we spent a

lot of time talking about the dynamics of the

characters and we've talked about the setting

and the music and the feel of the film and everything

of that nature you know using the real cattle

and i think there's like 9 000 cattle or something

i don't know um and we briefly we briefly talked

a little bit about how they make like the ensemble

distinct and give them identities another thing

they did though is they like included a whole

bunch of famous western character actors so there's

a lot of people that we've seen in some of these

other films or that are known for their roles

it always sounds weird for me to say harry carey

and harry carey jr because for me that's like

the announcer of the cubs in the 80s but also

a western i had to look it up like is there any

relation there is not um that's not the same

carry line but like so so they've been in a number

of films you know you mentioned walter brennan

there's like a you could probably say like six

or eight like pretty strong western character

actors and then obviously we have John Wayne

yeah obviously we have John Wayne and then we

oppose that with Montgomery Cliff who this is

his first film so he's not a character actor

he's not a known western actor he's not experienced

he's coming in and and his first film is going

toe -to -toe with John Wayne so I just wanted

to spend a second to get your take on how you

feel Montgomery Cliff did in this role um how

he worked for you and and were you surprised

that this was his first film role i i didn't

get that first film role at all he felt young

for the role he felt very it's of the time like

when i think of like 1940 late 40s 50s like young

actors like that like that that type of energy

i definitely feel like he he had that per se

and i thought he held up his own when he came

to john wayne like he wasn't trying to impersonate

john wayne or um you know try to match his bravado

he went a different way with it like his character

was very uh independent and of the way he would

act he he felt a bit more nuanced he felt a bit

more empathetic i thought he did a pretty strong

role. I mean, we've seen a lot of people try

this part and it can come off as too corny person

to use a word that's overused nowadays, but,

or at least a bit too on the nose or like trying

too hard, like almost like a Disney version of

a Western character. I didn't get that with him

at all. I thought it was pretty strong. Like

I didn't have any idea. This was his first major

role. And I would, I don't recognize him from

anything else. I don't know if I've seen him

anywhere. I'll never really realized it, but

I thought he was good here. i think he did i

haven't seen from here to eternity he's in that

um it's interesting though when you look at some

of the roles he declined so this comes out in

1948 and he's offered roles in the following

films dan that we're about to cover and he turns

them all down or somebody else was cast instead

so he was offered a role in high noon he was

offered a role in shane he was offered a role

in rio bravo um and stuff like that he was offered

a role in rope from Alfred Hitchcock. I could

see that. He probably would have been one of

the murderers, would be my guess. He was offered

a role on On the Waterfront, A Star is Born,

Bridge Over the River Kwai, Cat on a Hot Tin

Roof. I don't know why he turned all these down

or why somebody else got cast instead, but he

could have had a whole different career. He could

have been the best actor ever, and he's like,

nah, I got, you know, not that movie. That's

kind of crazy. Yeah, he only does like 15 or

16 films total. He's done by 1960 -something.

So that's kind of interesting. I thought he did

well. I was drawn to him as a character. I found

him having enough charisma and enough youth where

he didn't quite come across... We've had a lot

of young characters in these Western films, right?

The young Buck or the this, that, and the other.

And sometimes they've come off as like... that

guy is on a different set than the rest of the

folks right and uh i did not get that with with

montgomery cliff i thought he like gelled perfectly

with what he was there for and i thought he he

played the role well so i was impressed by his

first film like that's pretty impressive especially

going against someone john wayne even if they

didn't get along together like it i guess it

worked for the film so um because it made their

dynamic i think that much more believable so

any other final last thoughts on red river dan

no i i would say it's interesting like going

into this it wasn't i didn't see it listed within

a lot of the lists we looked at like as one of

the best westerns but i am glad we covered it

because i do think looking you know i haven't

ranked all my crazy how many we've done so far

because i was looking at like you said like 18

or so at this point yeah but i do think it is

you know within the ones we've gotten done especially

just the john wayne ones top echelon at least

for me right now so be curious where it fits

at the end but yeah overall rather strong film

i'm glad we got a chance to talk about it yeah

i agree it gives us a lot like you get john wayne

but you get our first cattle drive like i said

the music worked phenomenally for me um i felt

like it really felt authentic and then you have

some different character dynamics than we've

seen in some of the other films with the with

the you know relationships between not just John

Wayne and his son, but the rest of the people

that are on this journey. So I think it's, it's

worth watching. I'm surprised it doesn't get

listed higher on a lot of these best Western

rankings. Yeah. I know we'll get the Brio Bravo

and I wonder if, you know, which is also has

a lot of similar actors and same director. So

I wonder now that I have high expectations for

that, because I see that ranked even higher than

this and that rankings are and everything, but

just considering how much I enjoyed it, I am.

Really looking forward to getting to that. But

next week, we're going to be not doing Rio Bravo.

What are we doing next week? We have High Noon

from 1952. So back into the 50s. That would be

the first time we've been in the 50s. Well, I

guess Johnny Guitar and Naked Spur. So it's the

same time period, right? That came out a year

before the Naked Spur. So I have no experience

with High Noon. I believe you have seen it, though,

correct? I have seen it, but it was another one.

It was probably about 12. years ago if not longer

so it's been it's been quite a while since i've

i've watched it so i'm looking forward to and

it has gary cooper in it who was offered the

role of john wayne's character but turned it

down so be intrigued to see how he fails with

of um how nutty fails that's harsh how like you

know how he works out with high noon because

it's a very it's a very very different type of

movie compared to this that that i remember so

okay I am intrigued as well as I am for the rest

of this block with Shane and Rio Bravo still

to come. So that's what we got on tap for this

portion of the Western Retrospective. If you're

wanting something different, you can always check

out our Planet of the Apes talk as well as we

make our way through that entire franchise. You

can search out Dan at the comic concierge on

most social platforms. You can search me out

at Optimus solo, or you can visit the website

at the GCRN .com or search out the podcast on

Facebook or different platforms. Dan, what is

the Facebook search that they would need to do

to find us? If you search a cinema geeks movie

podcast, you'll be able to find it. All right.

So that does it for this episode. Tune in next

time for another chance to listen to more of

the cinema geeks.