Star Trek Story-lines That Derail & That Could Benefit From Modern TV Stakes

Hello and welcome to Altered Geek I am your host

for this episode Mike powers and joining me as

always is Steve Megatron Phillips yo This comes

up out of a Twitter comment that I threw out

I think it was last Friday I And this could almost

be a kind of a bonus segment on your future imperfect

podcast Steve to maybe try to get different listeners.

But I've been watching after finishing up Star

Trek Discovery. I went back and I thought, you

know what, I'm going to watch Star Trek Enterprise.

And so I sat down to start watching it and I.

I think I just about wrapped the first season

or I was somewhere in the second season or something

like that and a particular I don't even remember

what episode it was but it prompted me to make

the following Twitter post which is imagine if

Enterprise, Voyager or even Discovery had a little

more Walking Dead or Game of Thrones in them

not knowing who would live or die on a mission

A little dramatic tension in a Trek series wouldn't

be a bad thing. From what I got, just right up

top, Ryan Cox on Twitter agreed with me, but

that's the problem he had with Trek's mainly

episodic model. He said DS9 had more stakes to

it, which is why he tends to go back to it more

even though Voyager was the one series he grew

up in. and then You chimed in with discovery

And a couple of episodes on the next generation

well there was one in particular And it was the

only one that they actually killed one of the

main cast and that was Tasha Yar And you know

what I feel like for as long as that show went

on for as many episodes as that show had Like

and that was it. I feel like that doesn't even

count the end of the first season too. So. And

then one guy. And then I want to just give shout

out to one guy, just random guy said they already

have what I was asking for. They're called red

shirts. But that doesn't really get to what I

was what I was suggesting, because we all know

red shirts are just throw away characters. And

maybe I can Shed some more light on this given

that now we have a verbal form here, but the

reason I referenced You know enterprise Voyager

and discovery the way that I did is because of

when they're when and where they're set I Feel

like because there's the original series right

that's done and over with there's really no changing

That plus the original series was so short Before

they started making movies and I feel like I

feel like Star Trek in the movies has always

had is where all the repercussions happen Any

any major changes Ships being destroyed cast

members dying all that stuff has been saved for

or has been shown in the movies Which may be

why I tend to like them a little more than the

TV shows But Voyager they were stuck out in the

middle of the Delta quadrant by themselves Enterprise

that is before like everything like they could

have had Tons of fun with that show, right? And

then of course discovery it Discovery remains

to be seen what's gonna go on with discovery

but the way that From season what I saw in season

one is that it's just more Star Trek like people

die they found a way to bring said people back

granted they're different but they still came

back well the only one they haven't brought back

was uh dr culver uh yeah oh yeah he he did die

um and he at least got more of an arc than the

the security officer lady that was in like the

third episode or fourth episode that got mauled

by the uh space cow um So I guess I guess discovery

doesn't really need to be put in there I maybe

I just killed Lorca too. So Did they well so

far? Oh, yeah, see that's I Feel like that's

a typical truck thing to find a way for somebody

to come back But I just I feel like it would

be more interesting especially given that you

know Okay, so let's leave discovery out of this

equation, okay? So you've got Voyager where they're

stuck in the Delta Quadrant. And you've got Enterprise,

which is like the prequel to like everything.

And they're new, like this is their first time

out in space and it's like everyone that they

meet. It's kind of funny it was a mission, you

know, it's a it's a show of exploration the first

two seasons are a show of exploration and discovering

new things and learning new things, but everybody

wants to Shoot and try to destroy the enterprise

From what I could see there's there's very few

episodes where they run into somebody that doesn't

want to destroy the enterprise Well, then you've

got the Time War, then you've got the N 'Kool,

you've got the Sulu Ban. Yeah. Even the Klingons

really aren't too key to the storyline, even

though they still look like TNT. No, but everyone

is hostile in Enterprise. Everyone that they

come across is hostile, but nobody... I can't

think of one casualty in the first two seasons.

You'll wait till the end of the fourth season

just to get that well see the third season has

casualties But it's people you don't care about

Or people you don't even know about so that and

that's kind of what you know bothers me It's

like you have like there's the set and granted

TV wasn't what it is TV 14 years ago isn't what

it was today right you didn't have I There were

no episode there were no TV shows like The Walking

Dead or Game of Thrones or American Horror Story.

Or yeah. So it's it's a completely different

ballgame. And I'm viewing this through the lens

of TV now. And I'm like, this could this could

be so much better. Now, I will say season three

of Enterprise has been a massive departure and

they have had people die, but it's no one that

you know about or really care for. But they just

reference the fact that they've lost crew. Which

they never did in the first two seasons they

never if they if they did lose crew They didn't

bring it up. In fact, I believe they the cat

then just kept saying like we don't you know

Safeties of the most important dick Everyone

he goes out with he returns to earth with pretty

much until the beginning until season three starts

and Then and then they actually start losing

people but it's no one that you know about so

the stakes just aren't there and I feel like

I don't know if Voyager could have been the same

thing too because Voyager they're stuck in the

Delta Quadrant. It's a completely unexplored

again unexplored there alone There is no Federation

to help that you know, there's nothing I Will

say as far as as far as enterprise you'll have

to wait until like the very end of enterprise

just to get Death of any of the major crew and

it's also the way that it goes out is just it's

kind of crap I Don't know if you've seen the

the end episode Okay, I won't spoil it for you,

but it goes out like crap and you're gonna be

like really really when you watch it Even the

actors that were involved said that it was tasteless

When they were asked to do it and Voyager part

of my problem with that is the majority of them

there's there's things where the characters did

die consistently and they use time travel to

fix it and they used quite often they use time

travel to fix it they used there was like duplicate

scenarios where somebody was duplicated by some

screw -up and in some kind of scientific way

Yeah, and and so yet one version would die the

other would you know go on further and There

was a majority of how Voyager survived was time

travel intervention and It kind of well and in

the EMH because he's got so much Scientific history

of medical history. He's able to pretty much

reverse anything. There's like an episode where

Tom Paris and Janeway go to transwarp of warp

10 and break the barrier and morph into these

late lizard creatures and the doctor reverses

them back to human well see no okay I I've seen

all of Voyager but what's really weird it may

again maybe it's me looking through the lens

that I'm looking through now and not 14 years

ago but like Time travel is such a huge part

of enterprise Like just the show like I I didn't

I did not believe how how much time travel was

a part of that and it jumps beyond anything that

comes after Like I I've seen them like go to

the past like I haven't really seen them like

they just use time travel to set up so much stuff

and it's like It just the amount of time travel

you see in enterprise. I feel like That would

have such a ripple effect on the rest of the

Star Trek continuity Like and yet it doesn't

yeah, like everyone like every other show Everyone

seems so surprised like the first time they encounter

like time travel, but like that's like that's

like a Thursday for Captain Archer. Yeah Well,

even Kirk goes back in time a lot in the original

series on the Enterprise, and they do even in

the movies. Then you look at TNG, they don't

even go back into the past except for in All

Good Things and in First Contact, where they

go back even before Archer. And DS9 goes back

in time once to Captain Kirk's era for Trials

and Tribulations and then Voyager just mostly.

There's one point that they do go back to like

the 90s, but for the most part they go into different

spots of their own timeline. Whether it be in

the past or the future, but it's still within

the 24th century, so it really doesn't have any

ramifications. Yeah, like I Excuse me like so

what I from what I remember of like Star Trek

like what I what I followed it a lot and right

around the release of like Enterprise and stuff

like that reading on things wasn't Is it Rick

Berman? Isn't he like not a good producer? He

actually was one of the He was the one that Gene

Roddenberry handpicked to take over Star Trek

when he died like because like I remember like

following like The whole like Star Trek is like

a you know on TV and the way it was made and

stuff like that I just remember like like certain

maybe just like certain fans or websites. They

just didn't think he got it Well, he got it The

problem was is they were trying to do something

new and they were splintering off and plus Paramount

had their own channel and so they were trying

to like oh look at all these lined up Star Trek

shows and So they were splintering off series

from from TNG and So like you had Deep Space

Nine come out like the last two years of TNG

and then you had Voyager the last couple years

of DS9 and same thing with Enterprise during

Voyager's time. And then you had the films going

on at the same time and Berman, I mean, he had

a lot of ideas. Some of them weren't the biggest

ideas with the fans, but there was also a lot

of paramount intervention. during his era whereas

Gene Roddenberry I think had a lot more throw

but even he got overruled a lot so it's I don't

know I mean he was he was kind of the creator

of DS9 Voyager and Enterprise along with a few

other people and kind of executive produced but

he was kind of on his way out anyway now I don't

mind the time travel stuff like I like it it's

like that those episodes are like some of the

ones where I'm like this is that's what it got

interesting Yeah, well, it's either going to

be really interesting or it's going to be really,

it's going to be either really interesting or

really crazy, which means you've got to watch

it. Right. So I like those are the ones I tend

to pay attention to. But at the same time, there's

just there's so many. And I'm like, this is like

it becomes like, you know, like a major just

like crutch. It's like we need to tell a story

like like I just got past an episode where, you

know, the Zindi. Season 3 they go back to 2004

Detroit to develop a bio weapon Yep, and it's

like What why would you? This this just came

out of nowhere Yeah, there's there's a lot of

that and then plus you get the introduction of

agent Daniel's which I thought was kind of an

interesting new development He's interesting.

I don't I feel like I like it, but he didn't

get fleshed out enough you know what i want to

see the star trek series where it's the 31st

century well actually you mean the one that uh

from the relativity that's in voyager well isn't

that where daniels is from uh he's i think that

or the 28th century one of the two but he's he's

from way up there yeah so i i want to see a star

trek show from that perspective so do i um but

i i do like Well, one thing I love about Star

Trek Online is it intertwines all of these different

Star Trek series together and makes them very

cohesive and actually fills in a lot of the gaps

in continuity and makes it all make sense, which

one of these days I may have to actually do a

playthrough and and like record it and then and

then you get like all these extra pieces of the

Star Trek mythos that you wouldn't normally get.

And was that all canon? Yeah, Star Trek Online

is canon. And it goes from everything that has

to do with like the Toxutat and, you know, the

Zindi, the, you know, Archer's time travel, you

know, all over the Star Trek timeline, even to

the temporal accords and the temporal war. And

Asia Daniels is like a centerpiece of that throughout

the entire journey. Because he joins your crew

on the 23rd century to kind of like after he's

dealt with Archer. Okay, and archers told him

to more or less take a hike get off my ship and

never come back So like he goes and bothers a

captain in the 23rd century and so like he he

ends up recruiting like check off at some point

In the late 23rd century, so he's kind of a key

member in the the battle of the Enterprise J

So yeah, I mean it's it's it's a lot of continuity

to kind of soak in but I was introduced to a

lot of this time travel stuff in Enterprise and

a lot of the stuff throughout the other series

just by playing Star Trek Online first and then

I was going back and watching the stuff so I

knew what the reference points were because I

had no idea what was going on when it came to

the Enterprise material. Okay. So it actually

helps that you're watching the show and then

like if you were to ever... like get involved

in that that's or or look it up the storyline

anyway it's it would make more sense having seen

the shows first right so okay now this may try

to get a refresher on my star trek knowledge

is um all this takes place in the milky way galaxy

right yeah okay That's that's just what I okay.

That's yeah, there's the alpha quadrant beta

quadrant Yep, delta and the gamma and then I

just I I couldn't remember if it was like the

the quadrant divided up all of space or if it

was the the if it was just the Milky Way galaxy

And then isn't there one isn't one of the movies

where they go to the edge of the galaxy Or is

it to the center? It's supposed to be the center

and that's the Star Trek five, okay, which nobody

likes to talk about Because it's like this this

entity like Chakri that you know claims he's

a god and he's not you know, and Yeah, I I always

like looking at the reason I bring it up is because

I always like looking at Star Trek maps to see

who's plotted out what. I most recently started

looking it up again because the season three

of Enterprise brings up the Delphic Expanse.

Which you actually get to go into and there's

a lot to do with that in Star Trek Online as

well. I've been trying to find a map that has

the Delphic Expanse on it but it doesn't like

the official stuff doesn't have it on it people

have added it to the official one i should actually

screenshot you the the different quadrants in

star trek online of the map the other thing that

really okay the other thing that really baffles

me is like space appears to be flat have you

know have you ever had that like sensation watching

star trek yeah there's no there's no depth Yeah,

there's no what is it that it has an X and a

Y but no Or is it no it has no it has Z It has

no X. Yeah X is horizontal X is vertical. I Can't

keep those track. It's okay. So it has it has

the you know, it will it's it's okay So it's

the flat earth of space basically Star Trek is

the flat earth of space. Yeah, and that that's

always that's baffled me yeah it doesn't really

make much sense honestly but um it's fine it's

just one of those things like when you get like

when you're a kid you're like oh yeah this is

really cool then you get older and it's like

couldn't you just fly couldn't you fly around

it like because space is supposed to be infinite

up or down or everywhere yeah it's you're you're

in the you're you're in air so like you know

it's like you run up to the robin the border

well can't you go down and around it Yeah, I

you know, I I don't know that's kind of my mentality

like I was I was playing the game earlier and

the There's like these these time portals that

you have to shut down and there's like enemies

all swarming around them and so I Being like

in a queue with like a half a dozen other people

playing and in your swamp by a bunch of ships

I actually flew underneath the time portal and

deactivated it that way so I wouldn't get shot

by ships But I did exactly what you're saying

though. I didn't do like the flat, you know flat

space theory I just I just Did like a like a

giant like dip and one underneath and then I

scanned it from underneath it and shut it off

Yeah, like okay. So obviously there's a little

bit of deck right like You see obviously starships

can go like above each other and below each other

But it's like when you come up to a border or

something in space. It's almost like it. It just

extends forever Like up or down, you know, like

they treat it like a space world Yeah, it's just

it's just it's it but yeah, like I said, it's

like one of those things when you're a kid You're

like this is really cool. Then your older is

like this is what? so but again it's all it's

it's all sci -fi right this is it none of it's

real so but yeah kind of rounding back to the

original thought though that they never really

take any chances with their main cast I kind

of agree with you that you know you really didn't

get much of that and even in towards the like

the tail end of DS 9 you had You know Cisco actually

bite it and oh See no thanks spoilers. Sorry

I haven't gotten it. I was trying to decide if

I wanted to watch DS 9 after Enterprise or all

the Voyager It's kind of a quasi like you'd have

to watch the series to actually understand what

it is that's happening but it's like There's

this whole thing with like the profits, okay

of Bajor And they chose him as the emissary.

So like there's this like weird scenario of like

it's like a Does it come back around to the first

episode because wasn't that called emissary?

Well, that's that's when he's revealed to be

the emissary type thing, but it's not he I mean

granted They most of the characters bite it to

some degree throughout the series and then come

back in in some different fashion There's a lot

of that, but I'll say it's interesting because

they seem to have more stakes involved than what

you would think, because the first three seasons

are almost painful to watch, and then beyond

that, when they start getting the movie universe

uniforms, or even just before that. The series

starts when you see Cisco get go bald and get

a goatee Okay, that's when the show gets good

So until he gets his goatee and he goes bald

he the show is not very good So, okay Just keep

that in mind when you watch it. It's but there's

there's a lot of stakes up and down in it. So

it's It's not as good as I would almost argue

not as good as like some of TNG to that degree,

but Well, like I said on your on future imperfect

that I always felt like Visually like I watched

like the first season of it when I aired like

religiously but I was never able to get back

to it, but I feel like that's because that became

What did I say it was it was like it was like

the Melrose place of Star Trek Until it's convenient

to give them a ship. Yeah. Yeah so But yeah,

so I'm just staring at a map of the Star Trek

universe that I found online and Hey, I'm like,

where did the I'm just like where did Voyager

get lost? Okay There's where they marked Voyager

got lost and then I'm trying to find out where

it showed where it got transported to but they

didn't mark that on the man Yeah, they got sucked

through like part of the like I think it was

like the Bajoran wormhole It's does the Badlands

the Badlands which is right by Bajor Right, that's

how I found it. I found Deep Space 9. I found

the Cardassian unit, which is all the way like

over on the border of the outside edge of the

Alpha Quadrant. And they got teleported to the

clear other side, but it doesn't show. What's

funny about the Badlands is you can also get

to the Mirror universe that way. Of course you

can. Yeah, which they do in DS9 and in Star Trek

Online. So it's... It's a convenient area to

go to. But I think that, like there's, holy crap

that is a huge map. I haven't seen one of those

since the, I used to have the old Star Trek technical

manuals. That's what this looks like it came

out of because it's like in four parts. Someone

laid up all four parts and lined it all up. I'm

trying to think of where this came from. They

they have They used to have an old encyclopedia

they used to have the Chronology, yep, which

this looks like it came from the chronology Book

because I used to have them all and I used to

actually have a digital Star Trek Omnipedia CD

program which had everything up through DS9 Like

it didn't have anything Voyager in it. It was

kind of like towards the end of that Era and

then they came out with like update CDs for it.

But it this it's insane the amount of encyclopedia

information they have now This says that the

entire width of the known galaxy is 1 ,500 light

-years I'll take their word for it Yeah, right.

It's like, well, I'm not really gonna refute

that I Don't know. I like looking at stuff like

this. I like looking at maps in general, but

yeah, so I don't know if this just came up, you

know It'd be nice if Star Trek like the TV show

had a little more especially now with like, you

know, I feel like people kind of Expect that

like but the thing is like discovery didn't do

a good job building like a core group like it

it didn't do the job that I feel like that the

reason the walking dead and Game of Thrones can

do what they do is because they they spend time

building out like a number of characters and

evolving and introducing characters and I just

don't I don't see discovery doing that like in

that and that's fine because I guess I guess

what I want isn't necessarily Star Trek but like

Like I said, I'm your future perfect episode.

Star Trek is a is always a product of the time

when said show premieres. And that is what TV

is right now. TV right now is isn't episodic

anymore. It's serialized. And things, you know,

things change like midseason, like people die.

Things like it. It would be really cool to see.

Like. ships get destroyed like you mean the ones

that matter yeah like like they do in the films

like how the enterprise d went down and was just

decimated unsalvageable and the enterprise l1

was destroyed and unsalvageable and yep and that's

what i said like it feels like the movies is

where everything happened i mean the movies are

where kirk died it's where data didn't die did

he yes yes he did Didn't really because he downloaded

his memories into being that before Of course

he didn't well he did and then well, I mean I

sorry I didn't mean to say it that way of course

he did is And then in Star Trek online they figure

out a way to resurface his memories Data memories

to to take over the body and become Captain Data

So yeah, it's just like but like you know I don't

know. It's I feel like that's where everything

happens. You know, data dies, Kirk dies. Just

that's and then the ships get destroyed. I mean,

that's that's where they kind of and I guess

you could you could do that because like you

have a bigger budget so you can show a ship getting

destroyed or crashing into Earth or something

like that. But not Earth, but a planet. But it's

just it's interesting that. Yeah, I feel like

they could do that now with TV as well Yeah,

it's it would definitely Benefit them I think

to to kind of go that route, but I guess only

time will tell on that No So let's like that's

all I really got I Guess that you could probably

use this as a buzz a bonus segment on your future

imperfect episode. Yeah So what are some shows

that you guys feel do this with their characters?

Like they don't put enough gravity of the situation

on their characters to where you feel like that

you could get maximum impact by actually killing

one of your core cast instead of having episode

of the week where they magically are back to

normal by the end of the episode. And I will

say there was one there are two episodes and

it's not a part one part two scenario of enterprise

Where they actually the ship was damaged and

the next episode is about repairing said ship

Like I thought that was really neat Which they

have they have episodes like that periodically

See that well, this is the first one I obviously

because it's right in front of me But this is

the first one I can recall like that so Unless

it was a two -parter this was not a two -parter

So So yeah, let us know use the have we used

the hashtag altered track Maybe our altered should

you altered track or should we do altered storytelling?

Maybe altered stories altered stories. Yeah Let's

do hashtag altered stories. You could hit us

up on Twitter. I am at Boothinja81. Steve is

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