Taking Chances in Modern Star Trek Storytelling

You are tuned in to Steve Megatron on Altered

Geek. Hello and welcome to Altered Geek. I am

your host for this episode, Mike Powers, and

joining me as always is Steve Megatron Phillips.

Yo. Just want to get this out of the way up top.

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like I said help us help you help us make a better

show so Excuse me This comes up out of a Twitter

comment that I Threw out I think it was last

Friday I and this could almost be kind of a bonus

segment on your future imperfect podcast Steve

to maybe try to get different listeners But I've

been watching after finishing up Star Trek discovery

I went back and I thought, you know what, I'm

going to watch Star Trek Enterprise. And so I

sat down and start watching it. And I think I

just about wrapped the first season or I was

somewhere in the second season or something like

that. And a particular, I don't even remember

what episode it was, but it prompted me to make

the following Twitter post. Which is imagine

if Enterprise Voyager or even Discovery had a

little more Walking Dead or Game of Thrones in

them Not knowing who would live or die on a mission

a little dramatic tension in a Trek series wouldn't

be a bad thing From what I got just right up

top Ryan Cox on Twitter agreed with agreed with

me, but that's the problem he had with Trek's

mainly episodic model. He said DS 9 had more

stakes to it Which is why he tends to go back

to it more even though Voyager was the one series

he grew up when And then You chimed in with discovery

And a couple of episodes on the next generation

well there was one in particular And it was the

only one that they actually killed one of the

main cast and that was Tasha Yar And you know

what I feel like for as long as that show went

on for as many episodes as that show had Like

and that was it. I feel like that doesn't even

count Well, they killed her the end of the first

season too so And then one guy and then I want

to just give shout out to one guy just random

guy Said they already have what I was asking

for. They're called red shirts But that doesn't

really get to what I was suggesting, because

we all know red shirts are just throwaway characters.

And maybe I can shed some more light on this,

given that now we have a verbal forum here. But

the reason I referenced Enterprise, Voyager,

and Discovery the way that I did is because of

when and where they're set. Feel like because

there's the original series right that's done

and over with there's really no changing That

plus the original series was so short Before

they started making movies and I feel like I

feel like Star Trek in the movies has always

had is where all the repercussions happen any

major changes, ships being destroyed, cast members

dying, all that stuff has been saved for or has

been shown in the movies, which may be why I

tend to like them a little more than the TV shows.

But Voyager, they were stuck out in the middle

of the Delta Quadrant by themselves. Enterprise,

that is before like everything, like they could

have had Tons of fun with that show, right? And

then, of course, Discovery... Discovery remains

to be seen what's going to go on with Discovery,

but the way that... From what I saw in Season

1 is that it's just more Star Trek. Like, people

die, they found a way to bring said people back.

Granted, they're different, but they still came

back. Well, the only one they haven't brought

back was Dr. Culver. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He did die.

And he at least got more of an arc than the security

officer lady that was in like the third episode

or fourth episode that got mauled by the space

cow. So I guess I guess discovery doesn't really

need to be put in there. Maybe I just killed

Lorca, too, so. Did they well so far yeah, see

that's I Feel like that's a typical truck thing

to find a way for somebody to come back But I

just I feel like it would be more interesting

especially given that you know So okay, so let's

leave this car discovery out of this equation.

Okay, so you've got Voyager where they're stuck

in the Delta quadrant and you've got Enterprise,

which is the like the prequel to like everything

and They're new like there. This is their first

time out in space and it's like Everyone that

they meet It's kind of funny. It was a mission,

you know, it's a it's a show of exploration the

first two seasons are a show of exploration and

discovering new things and learning new things,

but everybody wants to Shoot and try to destroy

the enterprise From what I could see, there's

very few episodes where they run into somebody

that doesn't want to destroy the Enterprise.

Well, then you've got the Time War, then you've

got the Nikul, you've got the Sulu Ban. Yeah.

Even the Klingons really aren't too key to the

storyline, even though they still look like TNT.

No, but everyone is hostile in Enterprise. Everyone

that they come across is hostile. But nobody...

I can't think of one casualty in the first two

seasons. You'll have to wait until the end of

the fourth season just to get that. Well, see,

the third season has casualties, but it's people

you don't care about. Or people you don't even

know about. And that's kind of what bothers me.

And granted, TV wasn't what it is. TV 14 years

ago isn't what it was today, right? You didn't

have... There were no TV shows like The Walking

Dead or Game of Thrones. Or American Horror Story.

Yeah, so it's a completely different ballgame,

and I'm viewing this through the lens of TV now,

and I'm like, this could be so much better. Now,

I will say season three of Enterprise has been

a massive departure. And they have had people

die, but it's no one that you know about or really

care for. But they just reference the fact that

they've lost crew, which they never did in the

first two seasons. They never if they if they

did lose crew, they didn't bring it up. In fact,

I believe they the captain just kept saying,

like, we don't, you know, the safeties of the

most important. Everyone he goes out with, he

returns to Earth with. pretty much until the

beginning until season 3 starts and Then and

then they actually start losing people but it's

no one that you know about so the stakes just

aren't there and I feel like I Don't know if

Voyager could have been the same thing too because

Voyager they're stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

It's a completely unexplored Again unexplored.

They're alone There is no Federation to help

that you know, there's Nothing I will say as

far as Enterprise, you'll have to wait until

like the very end of Enterprise just to get a

death of any of the major crew. And it's also

the way that it goes out is just it's kind of

crap. I don't know if you've seen the end episode

at all. No, no. OK, I won't spoil it for you,

but it goes out like crap. And you're going to

be like, really? Really? When you watch it. Even

the actors that were involved said that it was

tasteless When they were asked to do it and Voyager

part of my problem with that is the majority

of them there's there's things where The characters

did die Consistently and they use time travel

to fix it and they used Quite often they use

time travel to fix it they used There was like

duplicate scenarios where somebody was duplicated

by some Screw -up and in some kind of scientific

way yeah, and and so yet one version would die

the other would you know go on further and There

was a majority of how Voyager survived was time

travel intervention and It kind of well and the

EMH Because he's got so much scientific history

of medical history, he's able to pretty much

reverse anything. There's like an episode where

Tom Paris and Janeway go to Transwarp of Warp

10 and break the barrier and morph into these

light lizard creatures, and the doctor reverses

them back to human. We'll see. No, OK. I've seen

all of Voyager. But what's really weird and maybe

again, maybe it's me looking through the lens

that I'm looking through now and not 14 years

ago. But like time travel is such a huge part

of enterprise. Like just the show, like I I did.

I did not believe how how much time travel was

a part of that. And it jumps beyond anything

that comes after. Like I I've seen them like

go to the past like I haven't really seen them

like but they just use time travel to set up

so much stuff and it's like It just the amount

of time travel you see at Enterprise. I feel

like that would have such a ripple effect on

the rest of the Star Trek continuity Like and

yet it doesn't yeah like everyone like every

other show Everyone seems so surprised like the

first time they encounter like time travel, but

like that's like that's like a Thursday for Captain

Archer Yeah, well it must be Thursday Kirk goes

back in time a lot in the original series on

the Enterprise and in they do even in the movies

and You look at then you look at TNG. They don't

even go back into the past except for in in like

all good things and in First Contact where they

go back even before Archer and DS9 goes back

in time once to Captain Kirk's era for Trials

and Tribulations and then Voyager just mostly

There's one point that they do go back to like

the 90s but for the most part they go into different

spots of their own timeline Whether it be in

the past or the future, but it's it's still within

the 24th century. So it really doesn't have any

ramifications Yeah, like I Excuse me like so

whatever from what I remember of like Star Trek

Like what I what I followed it a lot and right

around the release of like Enterprise and stuff

like that breeding on things wasn't Is it Rick

Berman isn't he like not a good producer? He

was the one that Gene Roddenberry handpicked

to take over Star Trek when he died. The whole

like Star Trek is like a you know on TV in the

way it was made and stuff like that I just remember

like like certain maybe it's like certain fans

or websites. They just didn't think he got it.

Well, he got it The problem was is they were

trying to do something new and they were splintering

off and plus Paramount had their own channel

and so they were trying to like oh look at all

these lined up Star Trek shows and So they were

splintering off series from from TNG and So like

you had Deep Space Nine come out like the last

two years of TNG and then you had Voyager the

last couple years of DS9 and same thing with

Enterprise during Voyager's time. And then you

had the films going on at the same time. And

Berman, I mean, he had a lot of ideas. Some of

them weren't the biggest ideas with the fans,

but there was also a lot of paramount intervention.

during his era whereas Gene Roddenberry I think

had a lot more throw but even he got overruled

a lot so it's I don't know I mean he was he was

kind of the creator of DS9 Voyager and Enterprise

along with a few other people and kind of executive

produced but he was kind of on his way out anyway

now I don't mind the time travel stuff like I

like it it's like that those episodes are like

some of the ones where I'm like this is that's

what it got interesting Yeah, well, it's either

going to be really interesting or it's going

to be really, it's going to be either really

interesting or really crazy, which means you've

got to watch it. Right. So I like those are the

ones I tend to pay attention to. But at the same

time, there's just there's so many. And I'm like,

this is like it becomes like, you know, like

a major just like crutch. It's like we need to

tell a story like like I just got past an episode

where, you know, the Zindi. Season 3 they go

back to 2004 Detroit to develop a bio weapon

Yep, and it's like What why would you? This this

just came out of nowhere Yeah, there's there's

a lot of that and then plus you get the introduction

of agent Daniels, which I thought was kind of

an interesting new development He's interesting.

I don't I feel like I like it, but he didn't

get fleshed out enough you know what i want to

see the star trek series where it's the 31st

century well actually you mean the one that uh

from the relativity that's in voyager well isn't

that where daniels is from uh he's i think that

or the 28th century one of the two but he's he's

from way up there yeah so i i want to see a star

trek show from that perspective so do i um but

I do like, well, one thing I love about Star

Trek Online is it intertwines all of these different

Star Trek series together and makes them very

cohesive. It actually fills in a lot of the gaps

in continuity and makes it all make sense, which

one of these days I may have to actually do a

playthrough and record it. And then you get all

these extra pieces of the Star Trek mythos that

you wouldn't normally get. And was that all canon?

Yeah, Star Trek Online is canon. And it goes

from everything that has to do with like the

Toxutat and, you know, the Zindi, the, you know,

Archer's time travel, you know, all over the

Star Trek timeline, even to the temporal accords

and the temporal war. And Asia Daniels is like

a centerpiece of that throughout the entire journey.

Because he joins your crew on the 23rd century

to kind of like after he's dealt with Archer.

Okay, and archers told him to more or less take

a hike get off my ship and never come back So

like he goes and bothers a captain in the 23rd

century and so like he he ends up recruiting

like checkoff at some point In the late 23rd

century, so he's kind of a key member in the

the battle of the Enterprise J So yeah, I mean

it's it's it's a lot of continuity to kind of

soak in but I was introduced to a lot of this

time travel stuff in Enterprise and a lot of

the stuff throughout the other series just by

playing Star Trek Online first and then I was

going back and watching the stuff so I knew what

the reference points were because I had no idea

what was going on when it came to the Enterprise

material. Okay. So it actually helps that you're

watching the show and then like if you were to

ever... like get involved in that that's or look

it up the storyline anyway, it would make more

sense having seen the shows first. Right. So,

OK, now this may try to get a refresher on my

Star Trek knowledge is all this takes place in

the Milky Way galaxy, right? Yeah. OK. That's

that's just what I okay. Yeah, there's the alpha

quadrant beta quadrant Yep, delta and the gamma

and then I just I I couldn't remember if it was

like the the quadrant divided up all of space

or if it was the the if it was just the Milky

Way galaxy And then isn't there one isn't one

of the movies where they go to the edge of the

galaxy Or is it to the center? It's supposed

to be the center and that's the Star Trek five,

okay, which nobody likes to talk about Because

it's like this this entity like Chakri that you

know claims he's a god and he's not you know,

and Yeah, I I always like looking at the reason

I bring it up is because I always like looking

at Star Trek maps to see who's plotted out what.

I most recently started looking it up again because

the season three of Enterprise brings up the

Delphic Expanse. Yep, which you actually get

to go into and there's a lot to do with that

in Star Trek Online as well. And I've just been

trying to find out what is... I've been trying

to find a map that has the Delphic Expanse on

it, but it Doesn't like the official stuff doesn't

have it on it people have added it to the official

one I should actually screenshot you the the

different quadrants in Star Trek online of the

map The other thing that really okay. The other

thing that really baffles me is like space appears

to be flat Have you know have you ever had that

like sensation watching Star Trek? Yeah, there's

no there's no depth Yeah, there's no what is

it that it has an X and a Y but no Or is it no

it has no it has Z It has no X. Yeah X is horizontal

X is vertical. I Can't keep those track. It's

okay. So it has it has the you know, it will

it's it's okay So it's the flat earth of space

basically Star Trek is the flat earth of space.

Yeah, and that that's always that's baffled me

yeah it doesn't really make much sense honestly

but um it's fine it's just one of those things

like when you get like when you're a kid you're

like oh yeah this is really cool then you get

older and it's like couldn't you just why couldn't

you fly around it like because space is supposed

to be infinite up or down or everywhere yeah

it's you're you're in the you're you're in air

so like you know it's like you run up to the

robin the border well can't you go down and around

it Yeah, I you know, I I don't know that's kind

of my mentality like I was I was playing the

game earlier and the There's like these these

time portals that you have to shut down and there's

like enemies all swarming around them. And so

I Being like in a queue with like a half a dozen

other people playing and in your swamp by a bunch

of ships I actually flew underneath the time

portal and deactivated it that way so I wouldn't

get shot by ships But I did exactly what you're

saying though. I didn't do like the flat, you

know flat space theory I just I just Did like

a like a giant like dip and one underneath and

then I scanned it from underneath it and shut

it off Yeah, like okay. So like obviously there's

a little bit of depth right like You see obviously

starships can go like above each other and below

each other But it's like when you come up to

a border or something in space. It's almost like

it just extends forever Like up or down, you

know, like they treat it like a space road Yeah,

it's just it's just it's it but yeah, like I

said, it's like one of those things when you're

a kid You're like this is really cool. Then your

older is like this is what? So but again, it's

all it's it's all sci -fi, right? This is it.

None of it's real so But yeah kind of rounding

back to the original thought though that they

never really take any chances with their main

cast I kind of agree with you that You know,

you really didn't get much of that and even in

Towards the like the tail end of DS 9 you had

you know Cisco actually bite it and Oh, thanks.

Spoilers. Sorry. I was trying to decide if I

wanted to watch DS9 after Enterprise or all of

Voyager. It's kind of a quasi like you'd have

to watch the series to actually understand what

it is that's happening. But it's like. There's

this whole thing with like the profits. OK, of

Bajor. And they chose him as the emissary. So

like there's this like weird scenario of like

it's like a Does it come back around to the first

episode because wasn't that called emissary?

Well, that's that's when he's revealed to be

the emissary type thing, but it's not he I mean

granted They most of the characters bite it to

some degree throughout the series and then come

back in in some different fashion There's there's

a lot of a lot of that but It it I'll say it's

interesting because they have they seem to have

more stakes involved than What you would think

because they they kind of like the first three

seasons are almost painful to watch and then

beyond that When they start getting like the

movie universe uniforms or even just just before

that they The series starts when you see cisco

get go bald and get a goatee That's when the

show gets good So until he gets his goatee and

he goes bald he the show is not very good So,

okay. Um, just keep that in mind when you watch

it. It's but there's there's a lot of stakes

up and down in it, so it's It's not as good as

I would almost argue not as good as like some

of tng to that degree, but um Well, like I said

on your on future imperfect that I always felt

like Visually like I watched like the first season

of it when I aired like religiously, but I was

never able to get back to it but I feel like

that's because that became What did I say it

was it was like it was like the Melrose place

of Star Trek Until it's convenient to give them

a ship. Yeah. Yeah so But yeah, so I'm just staring

at a map of the Star Trek universe that I found

online and I'm like, where did the I'm just like

where did Voyager get lost? Okay, there's where

they marked Voyager got lost and then I'm trying

to find out where it showed where it got transported

to but they didn't mark that on the map Yeah,

they got sucked through like part of the like

I think it was like the Bajoran wormhole It's

does the Badlands the Badlands which is right

by Bajor Right, that's how I found it. I found

Deep Space 9. I found the Cardassian unit, which

is all the way over on the border of the outside

edge of the Alpha Quadrant. And they got teleported

to the clear other side, but it doesn't show.

What's funny about the Badlands is you can also

get to the Mirror universe that way. Of course

you can. Yeah. Which they do in DS9 and in Star

Trek Online. So it's... It's a convenient area

to go to. But I think that, like there's, holy

crap, that is a huge map. I haven't seen one

of those since the, I used to have the old Star

Trek technical manuals. That's what this looks

like it came out of because it's like in four

parts. Someone's laid out all four parts and

lined it all up. I'm trying to think of where

this came from. They they have They used to have

in an old encyclopedia they used to have the

Chronology, yep, which this looks like it came

from the chronology Book because I used to have

them all and I used to actually have a digital

Star Trek Omnipedia CD program which had everything

up through DS9 like it didn't have anything Voyager

in it it was kind of like towards the end of

that era and then they came out with like update

CDs for it but it this it's insane the amount

of encyclopedia information they have now this

says that the entire width of the known galaxy

is 1500 light years I'll take their word for

it Yeah, right. It's like, well, I'm not really

going to refute that. I don't know. I like looking

at stuff like this. I like looking at maps in

general. But yeah, so I don't know if this just

came up. You know, it'd be nice if Star Trek

like the TV show had a little more, especially

now with like, you know, I feel like people kind

of expect that. Like, but the thing is, like

Discovery didn't do a good job building like

a core group. Like it. It didn't do the job that

I feel like the reason the Walking Dead and Game

of Thrones can do what they do is because they

they spend time building out like a number of

characters and evolving and introducing characters.

And I just don't. I don't see Discovery doing

that like in that, and that's fine, because I

guess I guess what I want isn't necessarily Star

Trek, but. Like. Like I said, I'm your future

perfect episode. Star Trek is always a product

of the time when said show premieres. And that

is what TV is right now. TV right now is isn't

episodic anymore. It's serialized. And things,

you know, things change like. Midseason, like

people die, things like it. It would be really

cool to see. ships get destroyed like you mean

the ones that matter yeah like like they do in

the films like how the enterprise d went down

and was just decimated unsolvable and the enterprise

l1 was destroyed and unsolvable and yep and that's

what i said like it feels like the movies is

where everything happened i mean the movies are

where kirk died it's where dada didn't die did

he yes yes he did He didn't really because he

downloaded his memories into being that before

Of course he didn't well he did and then well,

I mean I sorry I didn't mean to say it that way

of course he did is and then in Star Trek online

They figure out a way to resurface his memories

Data memories to to take over the body and become

Captain Data So yeah, it's just like but like

you know I don't know. I feel like that's where

everything happens. Data dies. Kirk dies. And

then the ships get destroyed. I mean, that's

where they kind of... And I guess you could do

that because you have a bigger budget, so you

can show a ship getting destroyed or crashing

into Earth or something like that. But not Earth,

but a planet. But it's interesting that... Yeah,

I feel like they could do that now with TV as

well Yeah, it's it would definitely Benefit them

I think to to kind of go that route, but I guess

only time will tell on that No So let's like

that's all I really got I Guess that you could

probably use this as a buzzer bonus segment on

your future imperfect episode. Yeah So what are

some shows that you guys feel do this with their

characters? Like they don't put enough gravity

of the situation on their characters to where,

you know, you feel like that you could get maximum

impact by actually killing one of your core cast

instead of having, you know, episode of the week

where they magically are back to normal by the

end of the episode. And I will say there was

one there are two episodes and it's not a part

one part two scenario of Enterprise Where they

actually the ship was damaged and the next episode

is about repairing said ship Like I thought that

was really neat Which they have they have episodes

like that periodically See that well, this is

the first one I obviously because it's right

in front of me But this is the first one I can

recall like that so Unless it was a two -parter

this was not a two -parter So So yeah, let us

know use the have we used the hashtag altered

track Maybe or altered should we do altered track

or should we do altered storytelling? Maybe altered

stories altered stories. Yeah Let's do hashtag

altered stories. You could hit us up on Twitter.

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