A Conversation with David Carpenter of Gamiotics

It's gonna be fun. We can stay up late, swapping

man list stories, and in the morning, I'm making

waffles. Hey, this is Steve Bloom, and you are

listening to the Geekcast Radio Network. You

are tuned in to Steve Megatron on Altered Geek.

Hello and welcome to Geekcast Radio presents

an interview that will also be syndicated on

Altered Geek. I'm your host for this evening,

Steve Megatron. Coming to the digital studios

tonight is David Carpenter. And if you're not

familiar with David, he is a veteran of theater,

the founder of Tilted Windmills Theatricals,

and CEO of Gameiotics. Welcome to the show, David.

Hey, thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, glad

to have you. As we get started tonight, could

you tell our listeners a little bit about your

background? Sure. So I've been working in live

entertainment, mostly theatrical entertainment,

for about 22 years now. I am based in and out

of New York City. My office is in New York City.

And I spent the better part of 20 years working

on and off Broadway. a show off Broadway called

Puffs, which probably your listeners may have

heard of. It's a parody of the Harry Potter universe

that ran off Broadway for about three years and

is now the second most produced play in the U

.S. And then I also have a software company called

Gimeotics, which is diving into the gamification

of audience engagement, both in and outside of

entertainment. Awesome. Awesome. So did you did

you always want to be involved with theater or

how did that kind of come about? Yeah, I mean,

I was a theater kid from from, you know, fourth

grade on. Nice. Like going all the way back to

elementary school. Um, I come from an entertainment

family. Um, my grandfather was a, was a composer

in Hollywood. Uh, and so I was very, uh, he was

a television theme song, a composer. He wrote,

um, uh, some things you have heard of, but I

think the most notable things is he wrote the

theme song to 18. Um, and yeah. And so like,

there was kind of never any resistance to me

going into theater and entertainment just because

I came from a family that was so, that was already

so steeped in it. And I, when I was in college,

instead of going to LA, I made the decision to

move to New York, probably just because I was

closer to New York and just started diving into

theater. I started working off, off Broadway

and then quickly moved to work off on Broadway

for a company called the Dodgers, not the baseball

team, but this very venerable producing office.

They produced Jersey boys at one point, but they

were, they were a big deal. And I, that's how,

that's how I got my start. Awesome. Yeah. I,

it's funny enough. I, now I kind of, I produce

audio dramas and I get to play as a voice actor,

but I was always too chicken to put myself out

there into the theater realm. So getting to,

but I always enjoyed the ability to have the,

you know, the theatrical, I don't know, it's

just, it's fascinating. I mean, yeah, I mean,

like, I come across so many people in so many

different fields, right, who all did theater

or did something akin to theater in middle school,

high school, like just having, you know, the

more interesting people to me, obviously, the

ones who, you know, did played around or did

something with stage and always kind of had a

love for it, you know, within entertainment.

Yeah. So it's like it's just it's just something

that I always did. I was an actor. And then when

I was in high school and in college and then

when I was in college, I was like, oh, I don't

know if I really want to be an actor. Maybe I'll

be a director. And I focused on directing for

about three years when I was college. And by

the time I hit my senior year, I was like, gosh,

well. I don't really like working with actors,

but I really like putting the shows together.

Cause like when you're in college and you're

the director, you're also the producer. So yeah.

So when I left college, I went and started pursuing

a career in. In a lot of different aspects of

management. I mean, I worked in sales and marketing.

I was ahead of sales at DreamWorks on Shrek the

musical for about two years. I was on Broadway.

Yeah, it was a fun experience. It was different.

I'll give it that. But it was a really fun experience.

And then I worked for a producer for about five

years running her office, which taught me a lot.

And then I started my own office, which was Tilted

Windmills. Awesome. Awesome. So switching gears

a little bit, I see that you like board games

and video games. So what are some of your personal

favorite types of games in those areas? Which

one? Where do you want me to start? Let's start

with board games because I'm kind of a mild board

gamer, strategy board gamer, but yeah. So I wish

you could see my living room. I'm one of those

guys that we have a stack of board games sitting

against the wall. That's awesome. I love strategy

games, full stop. I absolutely adore strategy

games. The one that we're currently playing with

our group of friends up where I live is King's

Dilemma. Do you know that one? I haven't heard

of that one, no. So it's basically a branching

narratives board game. right and it's all strategy

and like you and there's five of us who play

it we're all sitting on the council of this land

right but it's it's it's hard to explain but

it's like it's like a multi -generational game

and so you and so you um make these decisions

that affect the land that also kind of determine

which cards get pulled next and your choices

have consequences as you're playing out this

game over time right And it is just, and we'll

talk more about Choose Your Adventure stuff later,

but, like, it is just endlessly fascinating about

how this game was designed, right? From a story

point of view, it's a great, great story game,

right? And so, like, we're, like, nearing the

end. We've been playing it for months now because,

like, a round will take hours to do. The other

one that we played for years that we haven't

played in a while is the Game of Thrones board

game is really well designed. Have you played

that one? No, I haven't. It's like Risk meets

Stratego. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's

Game of Thrones, so it's like you must backstab

your players by the end. You really have to go

like... I mean, we've had not fistfights, but

just like... Very intense altercations break

out during that game in our house just because

you get really so intense. It's like a four -hour

game to play, and you're investing so much time,

and you get to the end, and everyone's just out

with knives trying to win the game at the end.

I have a title game called Azul. I've heard of

that one. Yeah, Azul. It's like math. It's a

math game at the end of the day. You're just

trying to out -math everyone that's around you.

And then, of course, I have friends that play

that. And then, of course, Munchkin, which Munchkin

can be a tough game, man. That can be really

mean, too. So yeah, those are the board games

that one of my friends introduced me to Root.

We played the Initiative, if you heard that one,

which is a Cypher game. um uh with some friends

so yeah it's like like that's the thing is like

every weekend we're playing board games with

friends right like like it's it's happening and

then on the video game side like my i love first

person shooters one of my favorite games of all

time was dead space okay um all i played through

dead space like multiple times just because i

love it so much because like it's space and it's

horror and it's a shooter it's all things that

i love um uh and then like i i I played through

Breath of the Wild on the Switch and I'm currently

playing Hollow Knight right now. And I'm in this

weird, like work's really intense for me. So

I'm also in this kind of, it informs my video

gaming a little bit. So I kind of tend to go

completionist and I'm in this just dastardly

horrible thing within Hollow Knight of trying

to be completionist on it. And I'm like, I just

got to stop. I like, I got to accept 90%. Like

I accept an A and move on with my life and not

go for that A plus. Yeah, I've had that issue

with games in the past. so like playing, um,

the, the, uh, like the Batman Arkham games, you

know, cause I love the storyline. And then I

just have to take this, this, uh, the, the Riddler

stuff and just go, you know what? I'm not going

to get them all, but that's okay. Like I've got

everything else. And it's kind of the same way

with like mass effect and, and other games like

that. My favorite game, and I hope this isn't

too cliche, but literally my favorite game of

all time is Last of Us 1 and 2. I mean, it's

the best story game I've ever played in my life.

And it's one of the games that has just stuck

with me. And when 2 came out, that's what I did

last summer, right? It was like, that's it. I

was like, this is all I'm doing. And I literally

just, every spare chance I had, I was playing

that game. Because again, it was like horror

and zombies and first person shooter, like all

the things that I love. And then it's got the

storyline and it draws you in and then you're

just engaged permanently. Yeah. I mean, like

the thing about Last of Us is that they built

it so well that you really cared for those characters,

right? And they did a better job in two in making

you really invest in the characters, which, you

know, sometimes in video game design is like

tough to do. I feel like that's one of the reasons

why. um horizon dawn is so successful um is because

you actually really you do get invested in her

story and this journey that she's on um uh and

it's a big you know triple a game like it's a

big big game but they they help you best but

last of us is one of the was one of the best

ones i've ever played yeah that's that's definitely

one thing that i i i have to play when i play

a game it has to have a good storyline otherwise

i just kind of lose interest Yeah, I mean, like,

we'll play, like, we'll, oh, what was the name

of this game that came out? Because, like, everybody

was playing it during the pandemic. It was, like,

it was the couch co -op game about the couple

who were, like, about to get a divorce, but they

were then magically turned into dolls, and they're

kind of, like, running through their house trying

to save their marriage. Like, do you know which

one I'm talking about? I vaguely know the name

of it, but I, yeah. Yeah. My husband and I, we

played that for like two years during the pandemic,

right? Like that's all we played. And it was

actually very therapeutic being stuck in this

house together. Like, all right, we're going

to do this. But then like, we'll play like Broforce.

You ever played Broforce before? It's like, it's

a side scroller and it's like Contra. There's

like a little bit of Contra and it's just really

funny. and really dumb and just like really fun

to play. So we used to like, like sit down and

play bro force in some evenings. Just like, all

right, let's just get a pizza and do that. Yeah.

I, I love the, the side scrollers. I just, I

just looked it up as you were mentioning it.

And yeah, it does. It does look just fun and

stupid at the same time, but it, there's something

to be said for old games. There's something to

be said for old games. So I like, did you ever

play Magica? Magica had it. Magica was a, was

a top down, was a top down. but it had a good

spell system in it that was fun to do. I played

Magicka through a couple of times. I really liked

that. My husband didn't like it very much. He

didn't play it with me the second time around.

But like, yeah, I mean, it's just like, it like

depends. Like I'm in this rut with Hollow Knight

right now that I need to get out of and go do

something else because I've been playing it on

my Switch for literally months now. But yeah,

it's like I find something and I just invest

it in and that's just what I do. Awesome. Yeah,

I... yeah it's it's very cool to hear the the

different uh types of games that everybody gets

into and just um one it kind of helps me because

i don't always know of some of them just because

i kind of go to the same basic pool of games

too so uh yes what kind of what kind of games

do you tend to play well i mean i've played like

i said i've played like the mass effect stuff

and again it's more so because the story and

and just the the object of the game uh i've played

like star trek online just because it's more

of a the game is very meh by today's standards

however i play it because the storyline wraps

up a lot of storylines from the show from like

these uh one -off episodes that mean nothing

or that they were starting to lead somewhere

and just nothing happened with it and so then

they they kind of can play through the entire

continuity of the the last 60 years of of the

universe so that's that's really cool i love

that i love you like like what great fan service

that that is right yeah and i love it because

like you can start off in the 25th century so

like 2409 or you can start out in the 23rd century

during like kirk's era uh -huh Or you can start

off during the Discovery era during that whole

time. And so they've got three different starting

points for the Federation. And then you've got

like Romulans, Klingons, and the Jem 'Hadar.

So, I mean, you can kind of go all over the place

with it. And some of the missions are the same

based on the faction. And then other ones, like

the Federations, are obviously more fleshed out.

And so you get to play a lot of continuity things

that are driven from... other aspects and so

like being somebody who watches that whole universe

and it kind of knows the canon it's it's fun

to see this like oh this little you know tidbit

that they pulled from here is you know it actually

means something Oh, that's really cool. What

a great what a great way to use all your content

and IP and like and just like go a level deep,

like allow your fans to go a level deeper with

it. Right. And you can create your own characters

and you can you can modify your own ship and,

you know, different pieces and different different

skins and, you know, all the different consoles

to make it do, you know, one hit kills. And that's

fun. So, yeah, it's very fun. So tell me a little

bit about Gameiotics and the Tilted Windmills

theatricals. So, well, Tilted isn't really around

anymore. That company wrapped itself up at the

end of 2019. I'd had a split with my former business

partner and he left the industry and went on.

But while I was at Tilted. i was presented with

a really interesting problem and so this is like

you know it's starting to produce and and and

and was looking we had this company we're looking

for content we're looking for things to do and

i came across this show that was basically um

you were handed a remote like a four button radio

frequency remote when you came in and the show

was like it was about a guy who was always really

unlucky in love, and this genie appears, and

the genie was going to help him find love, right?

And with the help of this really stupid device

called the Chorus of Heavenly Angels, which was

the audience, right? And they had this polling

system built into the show, right? So it was

a branching narrative show that had a point system

built into it. And so at various points during

the course of the show, while this guy was going

on the date, the audience would make decisions

right those decisions were that kind of it was

tied to the remotes were tied to this off -the

-shelf educational polling software so like this

is the most basic stuff that you could find anywhere

right and the audience would vote and it would

and it and the and it would the bar graphs would

show you know how the audience voted and that's

the and that's what they would do and it was

things like where they should go on their date

and what the guy should say at various points

on this and and the show had like i want to say

like 11 different endings And if the audience

voted very favorably for the guy all the way

through the show, then he would sleep with the

girl at the end. And if very negatively, he'd

throw himself off a bridge. And then everything

in between, right? And I remember just seeing

this thing and being like, this is the first

time I've ever seen anyone successfully execute

this idea in a live theatrical environment. And

so I actually optioned the show and started working

on it. And one of the first things I realized

is that the methodology of like handing something

to an audience member when they walked into a

venue, like wasn't practical or scalable at all.

I mean, it was fine. Yeah, it just simply wasn't.

And now the show itself had a lot of problems,

right? I mean, just a lot, a lot of problems.

And I'd given like pages and pages of notes and

the author's like, oh, my work's perfect. I won't

take a note. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, all

right, good luck, dude, right? But as I'm puzzling

through this, right, I realized that there wasn't

a mechanism that was painless, right, to allow

the audience to collectively make a choice or

take action. And I thought, gosh, that's an interesting

problem that needs to be solved, that it needed

to be solved to make that show successful. Long

story short, I got introduced to this programmer

named Dave Keene, the software engineer Dave

Keene, who at one point in his career was the

senior architect of the PlayStation Gaming Network,

right? And he was a lover of theater, right?

And he was currently working at this healthcare

startup doing stuff with Alzheimer's and technology.

It was really interesting stuff. You know, we

presented this problem to him and Dave's like,

well, he's like, well, yeah, OK, I can design

an app. And this is back in like 2015. Right.

And I was like 2015, 2016, somewhere around them.

I'm like, no, no, no, you can't. It can never

be an app. Right. I said I said the problem with

apps in the live theatrical environment, the

live environment is that. If it's like, if the

show starts at 8 and it's 8 .05 and it's raining

and it's gross out and the patron shows up at

the theater and the usher says, okay, wait, have

you downloaded the app to enjoy the show? And

the patron hasn't and they're already late, you've

lost the consumer, right? You've introduced too

many pain points to them right to start. And

so I said, and so Dave and I went back and forth.

And what we came up with was this idea of web

-based, right? Where you were originally back

in those days, it was like, you went to a simple

website, you entered a code. then that on your

phone, right? So the premise was, and this is

in 16, of saying, look, the audience is already

showing up at the theater with the tool to be

able to engage. It's sitting there in your pocket,

right? So why don't we take that tool and harness

it simply in order to create an engagement device?

And that's where Gameotics was originally born.

It was called something else back then, but that's

where it was originally born. That original show

I talked about, I ditched, right? Because the

author and I couldn't see eye to eye. And then

Puffs opened and it was a really big hit right

out of the gate. And we actually went to the

team with Puffs and said, hey, can you, we have

this technology that's being developed right

now. Can you write a show? And I spent two years

in. $150 ,000 going down a lot of very blind

alleys in this show that that team was working

on. And the problem was is that I take a lot

of the responsibility in that process is because

no one had ever really attempted this before

in the way that we were doing it. And I hadn't.

I wasn't I didn't successfully design a development

process in order to allow this idea to really

happen. Right. So, you know, I had I was doing

it under a traditional theatrical development

process and it wasn't working and it didn't end

up working. Right. So I spent two, two and a

half years working on that show. And then eventually

finally it was just like this is never going

to get off the ground and put on the shelf. And

the technology had advanced a little bit. Right.

But not tremendously. And then I split up my

business partner at the end of the end of 19.

And I took control of all the companies. I took

control of the technology company. And I remember

the split was fairly acrimonious. Right. And

I was sitting there with my lawyer and at a restaurant

while we're going through everything. And she

was saying, you know, you don't have to do this.

She's like, you don't you can just walk from

all of this. This is this sucks. Like, you know,

I'll help you get a job at Netflix. And then

I'm like, you know, it's like, yeah, like, wouldn't

that be fun? But. I like, and this is like the

gamer in me of being like, yeah, but I still

haven't actually solved this problem. Like I

haven't completed this quest yet. Right. Like

I'm not quite done with this yet. I want to give

this one more shot. And so I started, I commissioned

a new show in the start of 2019 and I was starting

to get moving forward again, you know, and then

the pandemic hit and everything just went up

in smoke. Right. Oh yeah. And so I. stared at

the wall for a day being like, well, now what

do we do? And then I realized like, all right,

live entertainment shut down for the foreseeable

future. I have this piece of technology. I called

a group of friends together and said, we're just

going to start writing shows that we can perform

on Zoom. And we're going to use this technology

to engage with the audience who's going to be

scattered all over the place because they're

not going to be able to gather together in a

room, right, to watch entertainment. They're

all going to be at home and we can do live entertainment

if we do it over Zoom. And that's where this

production company that I don't have anymore.

But we built this company called Seize the Show.

Right. And in 18 months, we produced 20 hour

long Zoom shows of increasing sophistication

as we went along and budget. Right. And that's

really where Gameiotics was born is because what

happened was, is I built this lab that was a

use case for everything that Gameiotics could

possibly do. Right. And we did. We did branching

narratives. We did quiz shows. We did game shows.

We did murder mysteries, which were super, super

fun to do. We did an online escape room. And

we did like just this time. We did a horror show.

We did a Christmas show. We did a Halloween show.

Like we did all these things. Right. And every

time we and I gathered a group of writers together

because everybody was out of work and I had a

little bit of money from investors. And I said,

all right, give everybody a little bit of money

and let's just kind of keep going. And so. We

just spent this year and a half period just working

at a feverish pitch. We'd release a new show

every month, cast of all of our friends. And

the writers, the writing room was all friends

of mine who all just kind of showed up one day.

I was like, yeah, sure, let's do this. And it

was amazing. And because we'd get into these

writers meetings and they'd say. well, can the

technology do this, right? Can we do this thing

with it? And I said, I don't know. And I called

the engineer and it did key in long since departed

the company at that point. I'd hired another

engineer. I said, hey, can we do this? And they're

like, yeah, sure. Give us a couple of weeks,

right? And then, and so like, we just started

getting all of these new tools and there became

this moment where we were able to, because effectively

Gameiotics is a two -way communication device

between audience and content using their web

browser on their phone, right? But it's, but

it doesn't, It works. It doesn't work like anything

else that's out there, right? Because no one's

actually purpose -built engagement technology

for the live entertainment space. Because for

the last 20 years, everyone's saying, don't bring

the cell phone in the theater. Don't bring the

cell phone in the van. Put it away. Put it in

a yonder bag. They're evil. They're evil. And

I'm like, what if you do the opposite? Like,

what if you make... Because that's the thing.

And I say this a lot when I'm doing interviews.

And I say this when I'm talking to people. It's

like... My point of view on the cell phone is

like it's like it's the tricorder. Right. Oh,

yeah, totally. That does like I can control the

temperature in my house right now. Right. Like

without touching the thermostat, like you can

do it. It unlocks the world around us. Let's

take this live entertainment space and let's

invite it in and use it as a tool. Right. And

so that's kind of the that's kind of the other

part of it. is let's build stories and experiences

where the audience has agency, right? Because

for me, like choice, like especially God in this

country, in this day and age, having choice is

so important. And I love the idea of introducing

agency into the entertainment realm where the

experience is crafted based on the choices. in

real time that the audience is making as it's

going along right i mean it's everything i love

about video games right oh yeah so so that's

kind of like a slightly out of order but that's

kind of where gamiotics got born and what we're

starting and what we're starting to do with it

but but what i what i'm doing with gamiotics

um is that i want to take i want to be able to

deliver agent audience directed experiences um

into any space where you have a live audience

so like one of the things that we're working

on right now we're developing a pilot program

in house so actually just developing this the

basis of um of this idea is the ability to like

go to a museum and go on an adventure with you

and your phone, that is basically the choices

that you're making. So like taking that branching

narrative experience, right? Or what you would

call like a choose your own adventure style experience,

not at CYOC, but in that style, right? And saying,

hey, if you make these choices, you're going

to have this experience, but come back again,

if you make a different set of choices, you have

a different experience, right? And so we're actually

developing, we're developing that right now.

It can do a lot of things. The phone can do a

lot of things, right? And so we're building our

software to do that. The other thing that we're

building with it right now is 20 -Side Tavern.

Did you come across that in? Yes. Yeah. I don't

know if you have more questions. We can talk

about 20 -Side Tavern because I can talk endlessly

about 20 -Side Tavern because it's one of the

coolest things I've ever done in my life. Do

you want to talk more about that? Yeah, definitely.

I was kind of reading a little bit about it earlier

and I was wondering. How else it comes into play

because it sounds very interesting as far as

the live theater and the interactive capabilities

with it and just kind of seeing what directions

you can go with it. So during the Seize the Show

days, we built a show. Me, Sarah Reynolds, who

works for me, and David Laws, who goes by Daggle.

Daggle. was is um a a dm and he happens to be

neil patrick harris's kids dm right i'm not kidding

right and so he's a really really talented dm

and an actor um he's performed at drunk shakespeare

he went to cmu he's a really super super talented

guy and prior to the pandemic he was trying to

figure out how do i do a dnd style game for the

live stage like how do i how do i make this happen

so It got pitched in a meeting and Sarah is a

huge D &D person as well. And I said, well, let's

do it. Like, what does it look like? And I said,

the only, you know, because it was during season

show, I was like, the only thing is like, you

have to give the audience choice and agency.

So figure out what choices the audience get to

make. And we did it and it was ridiculously popular.

right? And we saw an audience to come to that

thing that we hadn't seen at our other shows.

I'm like, okay. So when I sat down and seized

the show, I said to them, I was like, what if

we just keep working on this and see if this

is something we can do for the live stage? And

so we got this opportunity to do it at the Philly

Fringe Festival for two nights back in September.

It was like in between COVID surges. And we just

kind of did it, right? It was just like two folding

tables, a box of props, five people on stage.

You had the software and people came in. And

the audience just went nuts for it, right? And

I hadn't seen that kind of enthusiasm since I

produced Puffs, to be honest with you. And I

remember walking out of the theater being like,

oh my God, like there is a fandom and a hunger

for this type of experience that I think we all

suspected existed, but we just have now proven.

And it's really straightforward is that we've

created this big branching narrative world, right?

And there is a there is a campaign that happens.

And basically what happens in the experience

is that audience comes in and they're handed

a red, green or blue six sided die. Right. They

don't know what it's for. Right. And and the

very first choice, the QR code, the QR code in

now to access, give us a QR code in and we've

established communication and the show starts.

And the first choice that they say is like, what

color dye were you handed? Right. And the audience

is, you know. you know, presses on their phone,

whether they're regularly. And that sets up a

system inside of Game Yacht. It's called the

cohort system. And what the cohort system allows

us to do is send choices and actions. um on a

group on an individual group level right so if

you we can send only to the red and send things

only to the blue something only green and all

three or red and green like there's a lot of

things that we can do with the cohort system

right and what it is is the fighter major road

right and so the three actors come out one's

a fighter one's a major one road and the fighter

and they all get up and introduce themselves

and they say look you have three you have a choice

tonight about which character i'm going to play

this evening Right. And each cohort gets to make

a decision about which character that actor is

going to play because they don't know when the

show starts. Right. So you already we start by

having a new combination put on stage or these

three actors in the characters, sometimes the

same, sometimes new. Right. Just kind of depends

on the choice to go. And then from that point

forward, you're just rolling into the story that

the audience is making decisions. The actors

are improving. The game master is is is telling

us where we're going. And it's it's like. this

big interactive D &D style game where everybody

is participating in the creation of the story.

And the environment is projected and the story

can go in a lot of different directions. And

the battle sequences of the dice are involved.

So everyone's rolling dice. And it's just like,

and it's a comedy, right? So it's a really funny

thing. And so we put this thing together. We

just did it in Pittsburgh in April. And like,

I just never seen anything like it before, right?

And like... And it's like between the three of

us, because Sarah and Dago are my partners on

this, between the three of us, like we're all

like finding something about what we love, about

gaming, about what we love about video games,

what we love about board games, what we love

about theater and interactivity. And it's all

being kind of combined in this experience that

we're creating because it's not theater, but

it's a show. right if that makes sense right

and it's a game and it's and everybody has stakes

and it changes every single night so we have

people coming back over and over again to play

different aspects of the game and so and so we're

um we're going to edinburgh fringe festival with

it this august we're going to be doing a week

in new york um at the the dr2 theater darrell

theater in union square to prep ourselves for

edinburgh um and then Other things are coming

after that that are currently in the works. But

what we've discovered very early on is that the

audience that is coming out for this is it looks

like the... like our shows look like the floor

of a Comic -Con. Like you have everybody dressed

in different costumes from different things,

like from Star Trek to Lord of the Rings to Norse

mythology, you know, to like, to people just

wearing capes, right? I had this one family that

showed up like at the theater and they were just

sitting there playing Magic the Gathering. And

I'm like, you guys like, and they're like, no,

we love magic. We love D &D, we love this. Like,

and they were just playing the game before the

show started, you know, with each other. And

so you, we found that we were able to kind of

unite. all of those fandoms in a safe space right

within this environment for them to just sit

down and and be in this celebratory environment

over things that they love which is like gaming

and dnd and theater and all these different combinations

and it's like it's a deeply underserved audience

in live entertainment right like oh yeah totally

because i mean there's a lot of situations where

you're watching something and you're like man

i wish i could have had it do this or you know

and and just just anything that you end up watching

and it's it's It's almost like the games that

give you that freedom of choice to kind of choose

what direction the game goes in. And once you've

made that direction, it kind of goes down that

path instead. Yeah, I mean, a few years ago when

I was pitching the technology and Banner Snatch

came out, right? We'd already been working on

this idea before Banner Snatch came out on Netflix.

I came to people who were like, I had to watch

Banner Snatch and go through every possible iteration.

Right. Like I had to know every single thing

that could happen. I'm like, that is some really

valuable fandom. I'm like, if I could build a

show and sell tickets to that idea. Right. This

thing could this thing could do very well. And

that's effectively what we're doing right now.

Right. Is is is is that we've just built this

ever changing experience overnight. That is that

has a. that has a base, that has a foundation

that is really solid. But there's just like,

because it's this blend of improv and branching

narrative and gamification and all these different

variables, it just creates something really weird

and special every single time we do it. So I'm

really excited about it. I mean, like I haven't,

there's nothing else like it out there. And it

looks like that we, it looks like it's hooking

into like the whole nerddom culture in the right

way at the right time. And truth be told, it's

just because it's just being built by a bunch

of nerds anyway. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's I think

that's what's so appealing to it is is not only

that because it's built by nerds, but it's it's

basically for the nerds that just love just discovering

different branches of storylines. I mean, it's

I I'm one of those nerds that if I play if I

play certain video games or if there's certain

books that I've read that have that kind of choose

your own adventure type style to them. And I

like to kind of see all the different avenues

that I can go. without yeah i mean it's it drives

me nuts if i can't so like even some of the games

where it might take too long to get through that

point i'll watch the youtube videos of them taking

this alternate branch well i mean i mean you

know that that's you know they're in line therein

lies the problem with like what happened with

mass effect right which is they promised that

the ending that this would be your choices determine

the ending at the end of the third game. And

it turned out not to be true. Like that was inconsequential.

Right. So we have a lot of rules, right. About

how we build our stuff. And, you know, rule number

one is every choice must have a consequence.

There can be no fake choices. There can be like,

it must have a consequence. And so it's like

life. Yeah. Yeah. And so like that authenticity.

Right. Is really important for us to build in

the experiences. The audience must feel like

their choices matter. Right. Because then they'll

feel like they had a real and they had a real

truthful experience. Right. And that's kind of

the same thing reflected in a video game. Like

you if you're even though most video games are

are linear and narrative. Right. If it's designed

well, you can feel like your choices do matter.

Mm hmm. So it's fun. It's really I think what's

really been gratifying is is. being able to build

our own fandom with this right now right like

that you that we're starting to carve out our

own little niche for ourselves because we got

fans in New York we have fans in Pittsburgh now

we have people who are starting to come in from

all over the place to see this thing and that's

that's a lot of fun that's a lot of fun is being

able to service that um uh in a way in a live

entertainment way that like after years of working

on Broadway and off Broadway I just it's validating

to get this kind of reaction from a community

that I was a part of that, but always felt very

separate from my theatrical community. Right.

And I'm like, let's just, you know, I've reached

that point where it's like, let's just bring

this all together and see what happens. And it

seems to be working. Well, and the nice thing

about it is and the kind of awesome thing with

it is that it has like long term longevity just

because, like you said, not no two shows are

the same. Yeah. And people like that in their

experience. So it's like Sleep No More. Do you

know Sleep No More in New York? Not really. So

Sleep No More is developed by this very, very

wonderful company out of the UK called Punch

Drunk, who's done a lot of great stuff. And basically,

it's a nonverbal telling of Macbeth. Okay. So

it's a lot of dance. It's a lot of movement.

But it takes place in this building. over like

five stories right and when you go into the similar

experience you wear a mask right and i mean like

a big white mask so no one sees your face and

you're just kind of dropped in randomly and the

show itself is three hours long and it runs about

six hours a night so it goes in like two three

hour long chunks right but it's all continuous

all the way through right and you are just entered

into the story randomly on various places at

various times and so your job as an audience

member is to kind of like follow and piece this

thing together and choose which actor and the

whole thing is moving around you and up the floors

and you're and like and and so you're following

actors you're following storylines you're following

thread and plot lines all throughout this experience

and like i loved it when i saw it because it

was an experience where i had agency right but

none of the choices you make change the experience,

right? You could make different choices that

change your point of view of the experience,

but the experience is always the experience.

It's the same story every time. So I was very

inspired by this and saying, gosh, what if you

made a choice that then determined what that

actor would do? And that's part, you know, what

we did with Gameonics, but also what Gameonics

is powering in 20 -Sided Tavern is the ability

for the choices of the audience of Nate to change

what's happening on stage in real time, right?

um and that's really cool right that that you

have that that kind of agency um um and then

wanting to come back and say well if i made a

different choice what would have happened right

i mean that's just the that's just the branching

narrative aspect of it that i just i'm so in

love with with this thing right and then of course

like the fun thing because it's d d style the

role of the die, right? You'll get into a battle

sequence or, or a situation where you can win

or lose that determines which pathway you're

going to go down. And it's completely up to chance.

Right. And that's, I mean, like Dago and Sarah

designed that into it. And like, that's, what's

like a magical about it is you have this, this,

this, this, this idea of chance built into a

live theatrical show. That just makes, that keeps

everyone on their toes. It makes it really exciting.

That's awesome. So, What is the potential of

the gamification process and do you see it being

used in other mediums like a streaming program

or like a live podcast or things like that? Well,

I think we're seeing it a lot of places right

now. I mean, I think everything that Twitch is

doing is gamifying the experience for their users.

Right. And Twitch is certainly, you know, continue

to build into their technology, into their streaming

technology. This this communication between their

their streamers and their and their audience.

Right. And so I see a lot of the a lot of the

gamification of engagement happening over there.

You know, rightfully so on the platform. You

know, it's not real time like Twitch is lagged.

It's, you know, it's, you know, but, you know,

it's still it's still that there's still has

that that gamification. You're we've seen Netflix

make a move into into from Bandersnatch into

children's programming. But rumor has it they're

still investing pretty heavily into into more

branching narrative stuff that's out there. So

we're seeing we're certainly seeing more of that

happening. I think you're seeing a lot. of stuff

happening on the, on the experiential entertainment

side where the audience is getting more involved,

where it's becoming more gamified in terms of

their engagement. And like, you know, I'm, I'm

just there approaching it from this standpoint

of take the phone in your pocket, take the, take

the brick in your pocket and turn it into a tool

and use that tool and create that two way communication

device. Right. So like, um, if you, if you look

at wizarding world, the Harry Potter world at

universal, right. You buy that $80 piece of plastic

wand, right? And an RFID chip is buried into

it, right? And that's a gamification of experience.

You run around that parking lot, wave a wand,

you unlock a thing, right? But that communication

is one way. It's a one -way instance of me waving

the RFID check and something happening and the

thing going on. And I thought, that's really

cool. What if it becomes a two -way conversation?

What if it's a back and forth that can happen

between everything? And so you saw, we've seen

it with the Galactic Starship with Star Wars

at Disney. And they went heavily into that, into

CYOC. and LARPing and like, and all these concepts

are coming into it. And I've heard, I don't know,

you know, I've heard various degrees of success

or unsuccess with that thing. I am not going

to pay $5 ,000 to see it. Nope. At this point

in my life, right? Like that's not going to happen

today, but you know, they're, they're leaning

heaven because audiences, and I think it's so

true coming out of the pandemic is like. We don't

want passive entertainment anymore. We want if

we're going to go out and spend money, we want

to have an experience. And that wave has been

coming for a while now. And I seem to it seems

like it's really starting to take off. And I

think it's also the natural evolution of just

media and entertainment in general, just because

people are kind of I mean, especially with all

the streamers and everything else going on. I

think that it's more of a people want that that

community. They want that back and forth. They

don't they don't want to just sit and just veg

in front of a screen. We want the holodeck, right?

I mean, that's what we want. I mean, my husband

and I say this to each other all the time, is

that, like, at the end of the day, all we're

doing is trying to build the holodeck, right?

Like, we're trying to build this. Because it's

so true. I mean, that was in Star Trek. There

were so many good ways that they used the holodeck

to tell a lesson or tell a story or do something,

but also using it as an entertainment device

on the ship, which I always find to be really

fascinating. It's like, yeah, of course. They're

totally predicting what people want. They want

to have a realistic experience. All this stuff

about the metaverse, I'm not anti -anything,

but... Like I'm struggling with the metaverse

right now. It's like, well, it's like, you're

going to have to, how many people are going to

be able to afford a $400 heads? Like, like, like

how is this really gonna, how's this going to

work really? And everyone's like, Oh no, it's

going to be huge. And I'm like, but will it?

Yeah. That's kind of my, that's kind of my mentality

on it too, because I, I just don't know how accessible

it's going to be. Whereas like, you know, with

your, your product and, and your company, you

know, what, what you're doing with it, you're

using things people already have. So it's, it's

very accessible in that sense. Like it's not,

there's no like barrier to entry. Whereas, you

know, I feel like the metaverse site, it's, it's,

it's still going to be those people that are

very highly enthusiastic. And then you're going

to have the people kind of on the fence, like,

eh, I don't know if I want to spend that. Well,

I mean, it's the same problem with VR. VR is

amazing. Like, I can't tell you how many times,

like, and I certainly, I've had this experience,

or you probably have as well, is like, you put

on a VR headset, and you're like, oh, my God,

this is the future. And then after, like, the

hundredth time you've done it, you're like, well,

I'm going to go walk in a park. Yep. Right? It's

just like, it's like, it's really cool, and it's

really useful, but... Until it's not. Until it's

not. And it's like, it's been coming for so long,

and there's been billions of dollars invested

in it. Like, oh, it's going to be so great. And

it's like... yeah, but you know, it's been like,

I don't doubt that, that it will slip into the,

you know, the collective, you know, the collective

zeitgeist of how we operate in the world within

the coming decades. I'm kind of just more interested

in developing something now. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And also, again, I'm a live entertainment guy.

The space that I occupy is the room where we

all get together as people. So of course, the

metaverse is interesting to me, but it's also

like, well, I also work in an art form that goes

back 5 ,000 years and has always been successful.

So I'm just enhancing that. Yeah. And I think

it totally works. And actually before... When

I was doing my research, I was pretty interested

because I've never seen anything like it, which

is kind of just a testament to itself. And that,

yes, I appreciate that. I mean, I know that they've

had things where, you know, the audience can

kind of vote and do things from the chair. I

mean, you know, America's Funniest Videos did

stuff like that for years and all of the different

competition shows. But I mean, you look at it,

they're literally with a giant, you know, like

80s cell phone type thing, pressing buttons on

it. And it's attached to the back of the seat.

I mean, it's very trivial and cumbersome and

expensive. The hard part is that... It's very

new, right? It is a new approach into the live

space. And it certainly is taking a lot of...

convincing of people to say, no, except the cell

phone. And so part of like, you know, part of

my mission, and that's a big part where 20 side

tavern comes in is because 20 side tavern is

a separate company from gaming. I mean, gaming

is a partner in that, in that company, but it's

totally a separate company. And the reason why

I, why I've gone for it is because it's like.

you know, look, I liken it to Nintendo and I'm

not trying to self -aggrandize and say, oh my

God, I'm Nintendo because I'm not, right? But,

you know, if you look at the history, if you

look at the history of gaming, of course, which

I studied, right? You had Atari, you know, come

out in VR. I mean, VR should take a big, big

clue from this. You had Atari come out and back

in the 1980s, we had an Atari when I was growing

up. And the hardware could only advance so far.

Right. And then cabinet gaming, arcade gaming.

Right. Then kind of came in and they were just

better games. Right. Like you could build this

cabinet and you could tell you could build better

gaming experiences. Right. Then you could in

the limited size of Atari. So the at home gaming

systems just kind of went out the wayside because

all the kids were then flocking to the mall to

play the arcade. I was one of them right back

in the 80s. And then Nintendo comes along. in

the early 90s with just a better system right

and and and they came out and then they had to

build their super mario brothers and their duck

hunt right because that's what really that was

the two games that really launched into those

all things i remember and and and from that point

on nintendo owned the market for 10 years right

they made billions oh yeah easily and it took

a decade for sony and for um and uh for my and

for microsoft to catch up right to be able to

start building their but they own that thing

for a decade but i mean i'm looking at the situation

right now with gameotics and saying i've got

really good sophisticated software it's like

really really good smart software and lots of

people have tried to play around in this space

and i'm like you know the problem is you got

to make it easy for people to use which that

which nintendo is super easy to use but you also

have to build that super mario brothers and that's

where 20 -star tavern is for me right now it's

like building that experience that the software

is powered that makes it would be like oh my

god we need to get in on this and so that's kind

of really what i'm after in in But then also

at the same time of like just staying true to

my roots and saying, let's build an experience

that appeals to an audience that is just simply

underserved, right? And so I think that's also

what Nintendo did is like they built, there was

an at -home audience that was still waiting there,

right? That just didn't have access to anything

until they came along. They're like, where have

you been? And then they produced content for

a decade and just owned it. Oh yeah, totally.

I still remember when I got my first PlayStation.

I was so excited when the PlayStation came out.

And my Game Boy, right? Game Boy was a Nintendo

product, right? Yeah, Game Boy was a Nintendo

product. Anyway. So what's something you'd love

to see happen with this technology? So, you know,

it's a good question. I know, curveball. I feel

like one of the things that we're working on

right now, and this is super important to me,

actually has to do with accessibility. And one

of the things that we've discovered that we can

do is with a script, with scripted environments,

to be able to do closed captioning. Oh, cool.

And I'm about to launch a pilot program this

fall with the university. They haven't signed

their contract yet, so I can't say, right? Yeah.

But they're in the process of signing it. So

where we demoed this tech for them, and they're

like, we're signing up for a year to do this,

right? Because this idea that accessibility is

really important in the live space, but it's

really hard to do. And there's some software

out there that does some speech to text and does

some things. you know, for the most part, it's

really old school and being like, we're going

to have an accessible performance and hire a

sign language interpreter. And this is what we're

going to do. And I was like, what if every performance

was closed captioned? Right. And what if that's

closed caption was simply just going to the person's

phone during the course of it. So they didn't

have to buy an audio device or rent something,

or you have to schedule a separate performance

like that. Every single performance that you

put on your event is again, as long as it's scripted

was accessible. Right. And I, and, and when,

we discovered this it was like gosh this is really

a big changer in honestly just making like like

the idea of accessibility in the live space making

it much more democratized much more for everyone

because like we're releasing a new version of

the software in a few months from now and one

of the things that we're able to do is have language

translation right so i'll put a script into the

software and be able to do this kind of closed

captioning but be able to do it in multiple languages

and nice one of the things that i think On Broadway,

I've watched a lot of the struggles in being

able to access other communities, right? And

language is a barrier. It's like, well, what

if language is no longer a barrier in that you're

able to advertise for every performance? Because

advertising one performance as accessible isn't

good enough, right? And so being able to say,

hey, for the hearing impaired community, you

can come and it will always be available for

you for these shows. And, oh, if you don't speak

English, but you want to start getting introduced

to this, well, we can send it to you in your

own language and you can watch along. I mean,

it kind of takes the Mets been doing it for years,

right? But they built a massively expensive hardware

software system that no one else in the world

can really replicate because it's so expensive.

And I'm like, well, what if we just do it this

way and it's cheap, right? And so that's where

I really, that's the vision that I really have

for it is being able to open up live entertainment

to larger audiences, right? To speak to more

people. It's, I think is a really powerful idea

and it's something that I'm really aggressively

pursuing because I think it can be. really useful

for venues and for content creators and for people

trying to develop audiences and bringing different

types of communities together in the same space

rather than, you know, tribalizing them out in

their own ways. It's like, no, if we put them

all in the same space, we might be able to get

a better audience at the end of the day. So that's

the big idea that I'm after right now. Very,

very cool. And then the museum thing, like going

on an adventure in a museum, like is weirdly

enough, just super important to me, right? Like

just this idea of transforming a space into an

adventure zone for someone and it's all sitting

there on your phone is like, that's the kid in

me being like, oh my God, I would have gone to

a museum every weekend if that was the case.

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely a different

experience and I'd love to see that in action

actually, so. Hopefully this fall. I got a lot

of work to do this summer, but hopefully this

fall we'll be able to start. I got one of my

writers who's developing it right now. And so

we're starting to shop it around. And yeah, it's

tough. We got to find that right partner who

wants to be an earlier adopter. And then once

they get it, we prove that it works, off it goes.

So that's basically what the next year of my

life is. It's just like just banging down doors

saying, no, you got to do this. Awesome. Awesome.

So before we let you go, how can our listeners

find out or find you and find the various projects

you have coming up that you've talked about?

So you can reach out to me through Gameiotics,

through the website. If you just Google Gameiotics,

you'll come to the website. I'm really easy to

find. It's david at gameiotics .com. Or you can

just do an email to the website. I'd strongly

encourage looking up the 20 -sided tavern .com

or the 20 -sided tavern and searching for that

because that's the show that we're building.

And you can follow that along. Like I said, we're

going to be doing a week in New York, the week

of July 18th in New York. We're already on sale.

for that and then we're on sale for edinburgh

fringe festival and then you know fingers crossed

the few things go right in the next few weeks

we'll have a we'll have a production up this

fall uh somewhere in the continental us um and

then maybe another one after that so um it's

fun i mean like if you like dnd and you like

gaming and you like the you know everything i

talked about like that's the one that's a big

one to watch um so yeah that's how you find me

Awesome. Awesome. So I'd like to thank you again,

David, for taking the time to chat with us here

on this Altered Geek interview. Thanks so much.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me just

spout off about my passions for a little while.

I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem. It was very

fun. So until next time, listeners, get altered,

get geeky with the Altered Geeks.