Western Retrospective: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

Hey guys, this is Rob Paulson, and you're listening

to the GeekCast Radio Network. Hello and welcome

to episode 237 of the Cinema Geeks. I am one

of your Cinema Geeks optimists, Solo, and joining

me as usual is Dan. Hello. Hey, how's it going?

It's going well. We are back in the Wild Wild

West. I feel like I should put a Will Smith sound

clip here, but a different Wild West, I guess.

We're back talking more John Ford today. So we've

started a Western series a few episodes ago.

If you haven't caught up with the other episodes,

we do have an episode on Stagecoach and an episode

on The Searchers, which are both John Ford films.

And now we are covering our third. And final,

I believe final film for John Ford, which is

1962's The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Before

we get into the facts about this one, Dan, what

are you thinking after the first two John Ford

films? What's your history with The Man Who Shot

Liberty Valance? And set the stage for us a little

bit here. Oh, yeah. So Man Who Shot Liberty Valance,

as we talked about previously, was one I had

seen before. The Searchers was the stagecoach.

Oddly enough, stagecoach, the earliest one was

one I had not seen. But it has got me actually

kind of intrigued, similar to how Alfred Hitchcock

got us into watching more Cary Grant films. I've

actually started watching other... gone ford

movies a few other ones but i've overall enjoyed

it even if i haven't loved all the movies i think

you know if with stagecoach i think i ended up

enjoying that more than i expected searchers

i think i like more than you but still had some

issues with it and going into a man who shot

liberty valance i saw it i saw previously it's

been About a decade or so. I honestly didn't

remember much about it. Outside of the ending.

Which I actually knew before I ever saw it. Because

it has a pretty. I mentioned previously. There

was a special I was watching. That brought it

up. The ending. Because it has a pretty famous

tagline. Regarding when the legend becomes fact.

Print the legend. And it utilized that. It was

basically a TED talk before TED talk. So. Going

into this, I was like, I didn't remember much

beyond that. But now also being able to watch

many more Jimmy Stewart films and stuff like

that. So I was thinking, wow, Jimmy Stewart and

John Wayne, they're just so different figures.

And I've also been reading more about both of

them. So I was intrigued with that back knowledge

of going into this and interested to see how

that would shape my experience with it. So I

was intrigued. But I believe this was a first

-time watch for you, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah,

this is another first -time watch for me. I was

intrigued now seeing two John Ford and two John

Wayne films before that. Also having some knowledge,

obviously, about a few Jimmy Stewart roles before

that. Trying to see how those two would kind

of interact and mesh together and how that would

work was intriguing. But yeah, this is definitely

a first -time watch. I also want to get out of

the way here out front. This is... almost a 65

year old film so there may be some spoilers uh

that come up We're talking about the ending and

things of that nature. We probably will touch

on that at some point. So if you have not seen

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, pause this,

go watch the film, and then come back and listen.

Because it's 65 years old, and I feel like we

should just have free reign to talk about anything

and everything when it comes to that. So before

we get into all of that and our thoughts further,

we're going to let Dan set the stage with some

facts about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

We're going to watch the film and come back and

discuss. So we'll be right back. I shot the sheriff,

but I did not shoot Liberty Valance Pilgrim.

But the question is, who did? As we conclude

our John Ford block of the Western retrospective

with the man who shot Liberty Valance from 1962.

In the film, Senator Ransom Rand Southerd, played

by Jimmy Stewart, returns to a small town of

Shinbone with his wife, Haley, for a funeral

of a little -known man, Tom Donovan, who was

played by John Wayne. When reporters ask why,

such an important man would attend, Star Trek

reveals his real story of his rise to fame. Star

Trek tells the story of arriving as an idealistic

lawyer, but running into Liberty Valance on his

very first day and being beaten nearly to death.

Sardard attempts to make a life out of his new

home as Tom Donovan questions his fortitude for

survival. Sardard and Ransom have a bit of a

rivalry, but they both agree the need of their

territory to become a state, which raises tensions

with Edward E. Valance and the ranchers that

hired him to quell those attempts. After Liberty

Valance nearly kills Dutton Peabody, the owner

of the town's newspaper, Stoddard finally faces

Valance and shoots him after being injured. The

achievement makes him an instant folk hero, and

the town uses that status to propel his election

to ensure statehood. Stoddard feels uneasy about

using a murder to gain political power, but at

a rally, Donovan reveals the truth. Stoddard

didn't actually kill Valance. Donovan secretly

shot Valance from the shadows to save him. Donovan

sacrifices his own happiness and future, including

his chances with Haley, to ensure Stoddard can

become the symbol the town needs. We didn't go

back to present day as Stoddard reveals the truth

to the newspaper who prompted this trip back

to memory lane, who then tears up his notes because

when the legend becomes fact, you print the legend

in the old west. This is an adaptation of a 1949

short story by Dorothy M. Johnson. It's also

the first occasion of John Wayne calling someone

Pilgrim. Despite that historical fact, upon its

release it was not well received, perhaps because

it was more of a downer ending, maybe the limited

sets, whatever the reason, throughout time it

has garnered more and more respect, often being

listed as one of John Ford's best and best American

westerns. So where do Kevin and I stand? Are

we more aligned with the contemporary reviews,

or do we find ourselves finding that this has

aged well? Back to Kevin and myself to discuss.

Thanks, Dan, for setting the stage. So now we

are free to kind of unleash here a little bit.

I wanted to give you a question and then let

you kind of give your initial thoughts here.

One thing that I was kind of... intrigued on

early on is this is a 1962 film we've spent a

good portion of the last what feels like two

years watching classic films we've talked about

it ad nauseum probably at this point the hitchcock

the carrie grant and now you know a few john

ford films and we've seen a lot of black and

white we've seen some color we've seen some different

stuff so obviously there is a an choice made

here that were in 1962 to film this in black

and white and there's a lot of talk and a lot

of different sources cite different things i

think i've heard like six different reasons for

why it was shot in black and white which all

conflict with each other and some of them make

like the studio seems to have one inclination

for why that is john ford seemed to have made

some statements as to why it was A few different

people involved have made different statements.

What did you think about their choice to film

this in black and white, both good and bad? And

then what was your just kind of initial thoughts

and initial take 10 years later watching The

Man Who Shot Liberty Valance again and kind of

after we've seen the previous John Ford and John

Wayne collaborations? It's interesting because

when you said 1962, because when I wanted to

go watch this, I didn't even look at... the year

it was made like okay let me go watch the man

who shot liberty valence and i was going back

and i was like looking at it i'm like wait this

was 1962 that's crazy and then realizing that

both like john wayne and jimmy stewart were more

to the like i thought they were being like aged

up for you know the the more present day scenes

well i can obviously not john wayne because he's

not in the more present day scenes but i thought

jimmy stewart was being more aged up for the

present day scenes but realizing that it was

more of the opposite because he was like in both

of them are in their in their 50s at this point

um so i was actually surprised by that so i do

feel like within keeping it black and white it

does it feels more in this like time period wise,

like it exists along the same side as, as something

like the searchers. And I know like similar to

you, I saw like some of the people mentioned

some of the reasoning was that it allowed Jimmy

Stewart to play younger and John Wayne to play

younger because Jimmy Stewart's meant to play

this younger individual who is just graduated

from being a lawyer. So like trying him to do

that in more of a, being in color at that time,

maybe it wouldn't work as well. I actually think

it was the right choice because thinking even

back to the searchers, we talked about like how

that part of the issue is like how sometimes

the showcase of time there wasn't as effective

sometimes because of it was, so obviously maybe

it was a bit too much. Here was obviously two

distinct periods, so it was a lot easier to pick

up on. If it was if it was more, you know, if

it didn't have the sheen of black and white to

hide behind itself, like we saw, I think sometimes

in some of the classic films we watched, even

some of the Hitchcock films, when they try to

make some individuals look younger or older,

doesn't always look great. So I think, you know,

whatever the reason, I do think ultimately it

makes it a better film. I think it especially

because this is a movie. So it is. designed to

look back at a younger america like it's all

about looking back at the past so having it within

that black and white feel i think makes it allows

that viewpoint to stay i think more accurate

i guess not accurate but i feel i don't know

i think it's the right choice ultimately um so

yeah It was interesting because, like you said,

there were some statements about the aging process

and making that easier in black and white. I

know John Ford made a couple different comments

about how he had a deeper appreciation for the

art of making something in black and white and

that there was more artistry in it, trying to

play and deal with shadows and what they can

do. I know there was a mention that the shootout

sequence towards the end of the film, some people

said, wouldn't have worked in color. yeah as

far as that goes but then there was also quite

a few folks that said that none of that had anything

to do with anything and that it was the studio

that like basically didn't give them enough funding

to do anything else and they're like that it

was do this or or don't make the movie so i don't

it's hard to say like who's who's right or wrong

i mean it does force john ford to do something

i guess i haven't seen i've only seen these three

films obviously of his but it seems like one

of the things that his trademark was you know

these great shots of of the west right like a

lot of his films are in the monument valley and

really kind of taking in the scenery of what

makes a western film and obviously doing something

more in black and white takes away a little of

that ability but i don't know if this film necessarily

needed that based on you know what we get here

it's clearly adapted from a short story they

they film this completely what seems like i think

completely on sound stages in in hollywood And

it does remind me of what we were doing with

a lot of the Hitchcock films where you could

clearly see this being portrayed on a stage.

Just because, you know, outside of a couple brief

things, you basically have... a couple sets right

like you have a couple different rooms that we're

we're in and you can definitely see this happening

on a stage with people coming in and out of the

doors and switching only a couple times so like

i i don't feel like we needed the western expanse

necessarily and the scenic shots in this one

so i'm fine with the black and white i also do

think it clearly had to help a little bit since

these two are both you know in their mid 50s

during this and they're not playing characters

in their 50s like granted we do see that there's

different cites citations as far as how much

time passes I know Wikipedia says that this is

a 25 year flashback but I also read something

that if you read up on like the listing that

they give for Jimmy Stewart's characters and

the different positions that he holds that it

comes out to be more in the 30 like 31 or 36

years based on all the different things so like

we're dealing with a quite a large time jump

here we're not just going five ten years you

know into the past or into the future however

you want to look at it but you know we're talking

about a significant like a third of somebody's

life or a fourth of somebody's life into the

into the future so i i kind of get that as well

what was your overall take you know watch you

said you watched this 10 years ago you didn't

remember as much except for the end as you watched

it did some more of it come back to you and kind

of what was your initial take on on how much

you liked it this time so i think Some of it

did come back to me, like the structure of it,

obviously, Jimmy Stewart going back, telling

his story and going through. And it was interesting

going through this and watching the two John

Ford movies before this with the mindset of the

elements of what hasn't worked for me with John

Ford up to this point. Like some of the humor

of John Ford didn't necessarily work for me.

But honestly, a lot of the stuff. that hadn't

worked for me in the past did work here. And

a lot of things that he was known for, obviously,

with Searchers and Stagecoach, we had those.

You mentioned how this is very much on a stage.

It doesn't have those scenic scenes. It is not

within the New Mexico scenery. It's not on location.

It doesn't have those insane stunts or anything

like that. It's much more low -key. But I think

within that, it ends up being a much better story

in a lot of ways. And I think it helps that you

have someone like Jimmy Stewart. I think he brings

a lot to this in a lot of ways, his presence.

And generally the story of like, there's, I think,

an intriguing conflict here. And there's some

things I'm still working out because there's

part of me wondering, like, do I ultimately agree

with what it's trying to say? But, you know,

this idea of. Because you do see this kind of

this battle of almost like, you know, masculinity

within this because you see Jimmy Stewart being,

you know, coming out into the West with his ideals

of law and order and being up against this Liberty

Valance individual and thinking he can use that

to try to take him down. But obviously, John

Stewart, not John Stewart. a different person

John Wayne you know his Tom Donovan telling him

he needs a gun and and him like kind of having

to kind of go down that route and it's it's interesting

because it's like you know what's what's the

right path and then the idea but I do think it's

interesting because it's like everyone here is

like living within the lie and I think it does

talk about a lot about kind of how much about

the America facade is, is built upon a lie, but

it kind of doesn't have to be, you know, a bunch

of this is about, it's built on the fact that

this is, I don't even know if they even talk

about what territory, I know it's, it says they're

trying to get statehood, but I can't even remember

if they even specify what state they're even

in. No, it's, it's not, it's not mentioned. So,

it's, in order for them to get statehood, they

have to kind of build this lie, which ultimately

they need to do. It's, it's, it's in the betterment

of, of everyone for it to become a state. And

in order for that to happen, it's kind of you're

utilizing what is ultimately a lie for that.

But is that okay? So I think there's just an

intriguing dilemma there that's a little bit

more complex than what we've gotten so far. You

also don't necessarily have the amount of racism

that we've dealt with in the past. So that's

also helpful. And also, I think Lee Marvin is

fantastic in this. He is that great bad guy.

really want to hate him he he's got a great presence

to him and he does like him and like john wayne

have a good balance i think the the three -headed

monster of himself john wayne and jimmy stewart

like do work well again like i there are some

things i i struggle with because it is interesting

it's like the way they kind of um got to like

under jimmy stewart and like you know you see

that john wayne is always you know kind of uh

always kind of coming about on top but ultimately

he doesn't in the end and i do question like

would he make that sacrifice would he do that

and that that's something i i i've wondered as

well but i do like i am there's a lot about this

i really like and a lot about i'm super intrigued

by and like i said i think it asked really interesting

questions even if it is a much more like stripped

down movie and maybe because it had to be at

the time because like you mentioned with the

studios or whatever that may be which is interesting

because you know John Ford was like the golden

boy at the time and maybe he was like you know

as things things change and he was it was time

was running out whatever it could be but ultimately

that I say all that to say I rather really I

really enjoyed this I think even with some of

my quibbles I felt like it um it offers a lot

to think about and it is I think hoisted in the

things I mentioned that I had issues with, even

some of the comedy, like Andy Dufayne, I thought

his comedy work, it was a good balance. Like

he gave, he added a lot of character, had one

of my favorite lines about like the jail, like

how he was like, you know, we only have a jail,

one jail, it has one room, doesn't lock. I sleep

in it. And it's just like the way he kept going,

the way he just kept going with it. It was kind

of funny. I just, I don't know. I just had a

good time with it. And I thought it, it had a

really strong cast and yeah, I don't know. I've

been, I've been kind of a labyrinth, but how

about yourself? What did you think of this one?

Cause I know you have even very mixed on them

so far. So did this change your mind at all?

So, I mean, I'm overly, I feel like I was generally

positive with. stagecoach like yeah it's true

there's some there's some blatant racist nonsense

in there that you have to like yeah true but

but like overall i feel like it was a solid film

i did have some issues obviously with the searchers

um with this one though i feel like it's a weird

dichotomy because it feels like it's i think

you use the the phrase stripped down or somewhat

more simplified when it comes to the actual movie

making part of it And then on the other hand,

it's the most complex one of the bunch when it

comes to how many different themes and questions

and I guess thematic elements it weaves in and

out. And I don't think it does it to a point

where it's overstuffed. I'm not saying that.

It gives you a decent amount of different aspects

to really chew on and dig into. I think one thing

is... Obviously you mentioned there is this masculinity,

I guess for lack of a better term, pissing contest

almost that you would have throughout the film,

right? You definitely get these three characters

that are trying to decide who's going to have

the most control over the area, who's going to

wield the most power, and things of that nature.

So you have that string going. You also have

this string going of... Jimmy Stewart and his

I guess you could call it like this crusade to

enlighten the community that he has found himself

in whether it be teaching them how to read and

teaching them rules about voting and America

just in general and is that a positive is that

a negative obviously like we can have ideas as

far as present day and like you know democracy

and things of that nature but like in this situation

is he disrupting the apple cart is it is the

stuff he's doing worthy is he going about it

in the right way so you got kind of that as an

undertone i also think you have this what i find

i guess the most intriguing out of all the different

through lines is when you have what's coming

across as somewhat pure or ethically morally

upright individuals that are balancing the need

or the idea of resorting to violence in order

to overcome this obstacle that's in front of

them and i think that's interesting because we

anyway it's not obviously the first film that

does this it's not the last film that does this

and and i think though it is an interesting way

to kind of build that setup between and specifically

like the difference between Jimmy Stewart doing

something in this or John Wayne's character Tom

Donovan doing something in this to like resolve

the problem that is Liberty Valance in this community

right and how does Jimmy Stewart navigate that

and still stay true to his morals or his you

know sense of right and wrong and what does he

resort to in in order to try to like do what

he feels it's ultimately right for this community

like at what cost and that kind of goes back

to like what i think what you were mentioning

too with like america in general right like we

might have like these has i don't mean we like

dan and i but like as a country like we may have

had ideas of where we wanted to get to and and

what is right when it comes to freedom and rights

and democracy and all this other stuff what were

we willing to do along the way to get there and

which of those things are justifiable and which

ones are like a horrible like i i think that's

a very interesting thing to tackle within this

film um and it was one that kind of had me intrigued

throughout like i i feel like i knew what the

ending was going to be the whole time for the

most part like i don't think that's necessarily

something that's difficult to figure out even

if it wasn't spoiled for you like At one point,

I think the biggest twist to me as a one point,

I thought they weren't going to do that. And

I'm like, wait, I'm like, I was convinced that

Jimmy Stewart's character was going to think

he had done something that actually John Wayne's

characters had done. And at first I'm like, Oh,

are they just actually going to let Jimmy Stewart's

character do that? And like, we're going to stick

with that. And so I, that's the only part that

kind of got me guessing is I thought that I knew

how it was going to happen. And then. I wasn't

convinced that it happened like that at first.

I was like, Oh, they didn't do what I thought

they were going to do when in fact they did.

Um, and I'm talking in code, I guess, but, um,

so, so that was something that I did find interesting,

but what other thought, what did you think as

far as like this balance between being the upstanding

citizen and, and resorting to violence in order

to try to solve the problem of this state or

this community? Yeah, it's, it's a good question.

Like to do, do we, do we buy, jimmy stewart's

progression to i don't keep saying jimmy stewart

but his character's progression to accept the

role of like okay i'm gonna make the decision

and actually follow through and you know portray

my morals and take law into my own hands and

utilize this gun and and do it and i think i

think i i do because it wasn't uh an action that

he took lightly and it was an action you saw

the progression going through. He obviously got

the gun and I think ultimately it's just you

saw the reasoning before it. I think you saw

him be basically almost killed and that's certainly

going to push you a certain way. You saw that

he was in a situation where He saw what the law

was at that time. He saw a sheriff that, you

know, the likelihood of him actually standing

up and doing what's right or the capability was

limited. So, and then, you know, and then you

saw like basically, you know, kind of being laughed

at, being full of, and just the insanity of the

world that he's living in. Like, you know, everyone's

gone crazy, getting tripped and people trying

to kill each other just because of a steak dinner.

And it's just like going. But also coming to

respect this town and the people in it and trying

to make a change. And then also seeing as much

as he tries to change it, it gets pared down.

And he's making his change. He gets the bar closed

when they're voting. But then Liberty Valance

is always there. He realizes no matter how many

right turns he tries to make, Liberty Valance

is never going to... allow him to go the right

way. So I do think, and then ultimately obviously

seeing his friend basically nearly killed, and

he's like, all right, well, a man can only take

so much. So I do like that, the progression of

it, because it's not immediate. It's one he struggles

with. It's one that he kind of fights through,

and he has to go through a lot, even to the point

where he gets splashed with paint cans. And the

fact that he does stand up for himself on occasion,

but in different ways, punching John Wayne in

the face, which I know how to feel good. So,

yeah, I agree. Seeing him have to make that decision,

but also I think it was a good way of how they

went about it. made sense and it wasn't like

a decision made lightly i got two other questions

specifically that i had for you um about the

actual film here a lot of the reviews that i

read i tried to read a few that were of the time

when it came out and a few more modern ones but

one thing that seemed to keep popping up on a

few of them was people having different opinions

about the final 20 minutes or so of the film

that basically happens after this shootout some

people seem to be citing it as a really not perfect

but like this this really great film up until

that point and then they felt like the last 20

minutes really either dragged on or or undid

some of the stuff that the film had done and

some people that weren't uh didn't mind it as

much like where did you fall on the the final

20 minutes or however long it is basically from

the shootout until the curtain like how did you

feel they handled that last act I think that's

what makes the movie what it is. Like I said,

like, I think that's where it makes it more than

just a, just another Western because then it

becomes, that's where, you know, the infamous

line of when the legend becomes fact print, print

the legend. And in a way, you know, we're, we'll

get in a retrospective, we'll get to parts of

Western or that'd get labeled revisionist Westerns.

I think when this came out, that wasn't really

even a phrase, but I know this one gets kind

of labeled that by a lot of people as well. And,

I think probably when this came out, that wasn't

even a thought, but I think you see John Ford,

and I don't know if that was the mindset at the

time, but I feel like it makes it be more than

just another hero story, because now it's like,

okay, what do you do? And you can see him struggling

with it. It's not like Jimmy Stewart's character.

was living a lie he knew. He didn't know. He

thought he did it. But now he's stuck in this

situation. Does he tell the truth? To me, it

makes it more... Like you mentioned, it adds

in all these interesting dilemmas now. It makes

it much more complex without it being overloaded.

I disagree with that. To me, that extra bit makes

it up a whole other level. I think without it,

it's fine. It's an interesting movie. You have

some good scenes. I think it makes it far better

for them to do it that way. Yeah, I agree. I

couldn't, I think it definitely elevates it with

that last little bit. I didn't, and that's what

I didn't know that last 20 minutes was coming.

So that's where I was like, Oh, I was wrong about

everything. But I definitely enjoyed, enjoyed

that last 20 minutes. The other question I had

for you, and it can also kind of parlay into

some conversation about the supporting cast and

things of that nature. But we do have a number

of folks that we've seen already, right? Like

we have John Wayne. We have Andy Devine and Vera

Miles, who we've seen before. John Carradine

shows up in a minor role here. So some of the

people we've seen in the other two films as well.

You can speak to any of them, obviously. But

I was curious how you thought the whole dynamic

between Rance Stoddard, who I'll actually use

the character name, that's Jimmy Stewart's name,

and then Tom Donovan, who is John Wayne's character,

and then I'm going to call her Haley Steinfeld,

but it's Haley Stoddard, Vera Miles. who is actually

the only remaining living member of this cast.

She's the only one that's still alive. She's

95. And how do you think the dynamic between

the three of those characters, work, didn't work,

added to the overall effectiveness of the movie?

Interesting. Yeah, I was actually going to ask

you what you thought of Vera Miles, because she's...

Well, first, I want to hire her. The three -person

kitchen that they were pulling off. for what

seemed like a thousand people and yeah i don't

know like they were pretty efficient i know right

she's a good waitress uh and without even having

the ability being able to get all those orders

right without even being able to write them down

that's impressive um i guess when you know everyone

it helps but um you know because you know we

see like you mentioned we've seen her before

and she's you know she has her own psycho that

we had during our retrospective on hitchcock

she was in searchers and now of course with with

this so she's come up a few times um i mean i'm

not gonna say say that they're like their dynamic

together was like oh my god they like they had

so much chemistry it was like it was of the time

you know to me it falls in the relationship of

of the time like it's like within this type of

film yes like a john ford type of romantic elements

like i don't think i've ever i can say ever like

seeing a movie with John Wayne. And I've been

watching a few others outside of this retrospective

where I'm like, wow, John Wayne and this, and

this actress certainly have a lot of chemistry

together. It always feels a little bit awkward.

Like it, and that kind of almost feels kind of

like the point. Cause he's that like rugged,

like man guy who can't ever let his feelings

show. But I think you, at least they do feel

like they care like one another. And I do, you

do see how she, her character, how Haley interacts

with. Ransom compared to that of Tom. And I do

think like. They have feelings for one another

in different ways, like it's not like I'm not

like the romance here isn't the strength of the

film by any chance, but enough is there to make

it effective enough. So you understand the decisions.

I do think the one area I question the most with

the movie, it's like, do I believe Tom Donovan

would make that sacrifice? and like you know

give up what seems like be the only person he

loves for this lie like does where does that

do i does do i do i believe that and that's the

one area where i'm like i i'm not saying i don't

agree with it i just i wonder and i think about

and i'm not sure about but that's the one area

where i'm like you know i that i think with the

most questions for It almost relies on that one

shot or scene where she's tending to Rance's

gunshot wound. Yeah. And she's comforting him,

trying to do that. And we have Tom Donovan's

character kind of walks in towards the end of

that. And I wonder if they had done that slightly

different or if they had... made that more of

like the character walking in and hearing something

out of context that he takes the wrong way and

they would have like upped that a little bit

so that it was a little bit more convincing like

that that alone that moment like set him over

the edge and and made him question everything

he had believed but i don't know if they did

that as well as they could have um because then

all of a sudden he's just like going on a rampage

and like burning his own house down and everything

everything like that like he kind of goes off

the rails but it's like yeah I don't know if

I fully bought into what had happened previously

leading him to those decisions. Yeah. So I was

wondering like if there was a way they could

have done that in a, in a more convincing way.

But I agree. That's like the one, one of the

one areas where I was like, he just went like

insane. And I don't know if I'm understanding

exactly why. Yeah. I think, you know, and we're

supposed to see that. Oh, he sees that she loves

him and that she isn't. Or is that like, okay.

He sees that. her life will be better with him

than it would be with him. And that I can somewhat

understand because like, okay, well, she's going

to make him a better person. I'll have, she'll

have a better life. So that's what, like that,

is that more of a, than rather, because I never

saw it as like that moment. You could see those,

they're both in love because I didn't. Right.

So that's where I kind of, I wonder, like, again,

like, I don't think that moment where he walks

in, it's like, oh, clearly he sees them both

in love. And I, that, that didn't. as well so

yeah I but like I said it's it's there's enough

there that it works and but there are some elements

where you do see like Tom Donovan certainly does

care about like they do have their morals aligned

like he wants statehood as well like he wants

he does have respect you know he will kind of

you know he'll you know he'll rib him a little

bit but he also doesn't he'll he didn't dominate

him so like they do have this weird like respect

for one another so it's they do have an intriguing

dynamic i also wonder if there had been more

like you have them interacting right like you

have all three of them interacting at times you

have different people observing different stuff

that's happening you know how she's acting towards

one versus how she's acting towards the other

but it all comes across as fairly like i don't

know if innocence the right word but but fairly

like just normal interactions where i wonder

if they would have like dropped more breadcrumbs

along the way or if it had been more convincing

that there was like this really dynamic connection

between them but because i don't know if that

really existed for me like i feel like the same

thing it kind of like leads it to well it's enough

for it to work but it's not enough for it to

be like the part of the movie that drew me in

as much as the other ones. It all felt very platonic.

I felt like John Wayne and Bumpy had more chemistry

than anything. They seemed like they'd be happy

together. What did you think of how they handled

Pompey's character or whatever his name was?

That's as close as we're going to get to. I liked

some of the little things they did. There was

like the, when, you know, he goes into the bar

and there's that little line of like, you know,

you can't serve him. And he's like, why can't

you serve him? He's just as good, you know? So

I like, I did like they had, they did address

it and it wasn't, you know, it was like, they

made note of it and it did give you insight to

like, cause I was, I was kind of curious, like,

what is, what is his role here? Like what, like

how was it? What is the relation? Like, is he

his worker? But, and he might be, but it seems

like, is he his friend? But I, I liked, how it

kind of addressed it, but didn't try to like

overly romanticize it in a sense of like, so

I thought, I thought that was a nice little touch

they had to it. Did any other side characters

stand out to you outside of Andy Devine or Divine,

however you say that? And, and you know, Briar

Tuck there once again. No, like I said, I was

a fan of him. I can't, well, the, our newspaper

man, I think he plays a, Peabody. Peabody. He,

he plays a really important role. he was really

good too. He has that great speech at the, at

the rally. And of course he plays that, you know,

when he gets, he's the catalyst for what really,

you know, goes down when he gets basically beaten

to near death. And I would say even, you know,

Woody Strode, who plays Pompey, he doesn't. He

doesn't say a lot, but he does have a really

good presence. And I was like, I know him from

something. He's in Spartacus. That's where I

know him from. He plays a gladiator in that,

too. He was apparently also one of the first

African -American players in the NFL. Oh, wow.

I did not know that. I could certainly see that.

And then Van Cleef is in this. We'll probably

see him in a few. He doesn't really do much in

this, but we'll see him in some other Westerns

we'll go through. But no one really else stood

out to me. How about yourself? I mean, it was

fun seeing John Carradine for a split second.

I mean, he comes in kind of as not a super important

character to this, but he's like that Starbuckle

guy who's trying to give the speech at the end.

So that was interesting. Obviously, like Andy

Devine, I think he's hilarious. Just something

about the way he speaks and how he carries himself.

He's a fun character to have involved, for sure.

um i thought the doc did a decent job too like

i thought he had some cool lines there um when

he was asked you know i hope they call me one

day to check on you liberty valence like he actually

was someone that was somewhat willing to stand

up to him yeah and when he dies he's like yep

he's dead it's like that that was that was pretty

good like i said the humor in this i thought

was actually good like the yeah some of the humor

in searchers i thought was like really off -putting

but here it it hit much harder yeah I read somewhere

that this is the first time that John Wayne uses

the word pilgrim in a film, and I don't believe

that. Is that actually true? 1962, he doesn't

use it until then? It's possible. Like I said,

since then, I've watched four other John Wayne

movies, and they are before this, and he doesn't

say pilgrim. There we go. They said he calls

Rance Stoddard pilgrim 25 times in this film.

I was going to say, it does feel like it's a

lot. It's like, that'll be the day was the other

thing. Is that just your thing? He just gets

aligned with it and goes with it for a movie,

I guess. I thought just because based on my ignorance

on John Wayne that he said that in every film

he was ever in. He's got to say Pilgrim all the

time, but maybe just this film. I don't know.

I thought it was from... I haven't seen it. I

wanted to go back and watch the Alamo, which

I don't even know if it comes out before this

or that, which is where I thought it originated

from, but I guess not. um but only interesting

which is also kind of interesting not about the

movie but it's also like just the like the um

thinking of outside the film because you obviously

have like john wayne playing this like oh he's

the big bad bravado like he's really what a strong

man looks like but also thinking in reality how

like when world war ii came he was the guy that

like was stationed inside and didn't go off and

do anything and there's a lot of controversy

regarding why that happened but Jimmy Stewart

was actually the guy that did, you know, he flew

combat missions. And so, you know, John Ford

was also, you know, in the Navy and was at Midway.

So was Lee Marvin, I believe. Yeah. So it's just

kind of funny where it's like when you kept saying,

like, you know, guys like you. And I'm like,

well, actually guys like him. I don't know. It's

just like the veneer of it. It just makes you

kind of think about things when, like, you know,

there's a lot of people that would, like. want

to be john wayne and like think that jimmy stewart

was the was the um you know the geeky guy but

yeah but in reality it's like actually when when

the reality came he was the guy that was flying

uh flying combat missions and yeah definitely

read a bunch more about john ford not necessarily

being the nicest guy in the world during the

no and apparently like uh he would uh he would

bag on John Wayne a lot about not going over

to the... But yeah, it's interesting. I was watching...

Side note, I was watching Trumbo, which has someone

playing John Wayne, and they make a note of that

too. But anyway, I just was thinking... It just

ties into the theme of this. I thought it'd be

interesting. Yeah, I guess a couple times too,

John Wayne was giving Jimmy Stewart a hard time

because he's like, why are you the only one that

John Ford doesn't pick on during the filming?

And then towards the end, he must have said something

that... John Ford said something to Jimmy Stewart

and John Wayne was like, oh, finally, you're

in the club. You can get picked on too now. I

had a question for you, and this is completely

kind of, not necessarily, I guess it still is

about the film, but I was watching this film

and I could not stop thinking of a modern Western,

I guess modern, I'm using very loosely, but a

Western from our lifetime that seemed to have

tie -in after tie -in after tie -in with this

film. Did you get that at all? Did you pick up

on anything that made you think of a more modern

Western that you may or may not have seen during

your lifetime? I couldn't think of anything.

For me, this film was screaming a lot of the

same elements that I love or that I have noticed,

and I've seen this film probably a million times,

but Tombstone to me is all over this film. I

find it interesting because you have a couple

different things, right? First, you have the

good side having to resort to violence to help

the area, right? I think you could take Lee Marvin's

character of Liberty Valance and Powers Booth

character of Curly Bill. There's a lot of parallels

between those two characters. Hurley Bill is

definitely the same situation where he's the

one causing havoc in the town. He's the one everybody's

scared of. Not that that hasn't happened in dozens

of movies, but I definitely saw a connection

between those two. And then I also thought it

was interesting when it deals with the idea of

the legend of these different people. Obviously

in Tombstone you have Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday,

right? They're all about what the legend is about

them versus the reality, and I thought that was

interesting that we kind of get that same line

in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. They even

share dialogue, the two films, because in The

Man Who Shot Liberty Valance that we just watched,

there is a rare passage read from Shakespeare's

Henry V that talks about St. Crispin's Day. which

is a direct thing that we see doc holiday talk

or doc holiday or johnny ringo johnny ringo maybe

um who is it no i think it's doc holiday who

talks about there's somewhere in i'm getting

my things confused here but there's somewhere

in tombstone where they they quote the same passage

um and i'm trying to remember where it is but

like so to me that there was a bunch of things

like they both have the same passage from Shakespeare

like that can't be a coincidence right like it's

not we're not talking about Romeo and Juliet

we're talking about Saint Christmas Day's speech

from Henry V like I don't think that's very like

that's not one you just go to so like the fact

that they have that the fact that they're dealing

with the like the legend versus the reality the

fact that we have like this this villain character

who's kind of ruling the town out of fear the

fact that we have like these good characters

that are trying to Obviously, Wyatt Earp and

Doc Holliday have already resorted to violence

before, but you still get that sense that we

have the good resorting to evil tactics to try

to win the day, so to speak. How familiar are

you with Tombstone, and do you see some of those

connections now that I'm bringing it up? You

are far more familiar with Tombstone than I am.

I've seen Tombstone. It's been maybe once or

twice, so I did not make those connections. I

was enjoying them as I was watching it. I was

like, Oh, there's no possible way that the director

of tombstone or the screenplay person was not

familiar with Liberty balance. I mean, I wouldn't

doubt it. Cause I know like, you know, Liberty

balance is up there as, you know, as a lot of

people's favorite Western it's, it's noticed

it is noted a lot. I didn't see anything like

in, in the, I tried to look up some trivia on

Liberty Valance, the managed shot Liberty Valance.

I didn't see anything that mentioned Tombstone,

but I'd be interested if I went and searched

out Tombstone trivia, if I didn't find something

that mentioned Liberty Valance, but it was definitely

something that I enjoyed as I was watching that.

Cause that for a long time and we'll see what

happens after this, this retrospective that we

do, but Tombstone for a long time has been my

favorite Western. So. I think it's endlessly

quotable. I literally have a shirt that has Val

Kilmer's character that says, I'm in my prime.

Because that's something that his character talks

about in Toons Gone, even though he's literally

dying. So I feel like me at my age, I can wear

that proudly now. But what other thoughts and

anything you haven't got a chance to touch on

as far as the man who shot Liberty Val? No, that's

pretty much it. Do you want to get into where

we're headed next? Yeah, why don't you fill everybody

in and what kind of direction we're going to

go now that we've covered the three John Ford

Westerns. So yeah, so we're just a little bit

different. So we're handling our Western retrospective

a little bit different than we've handled the

Alfred Hitchcock and Kelly Grant, of course,

because with those we kind of just went in order.

So we did our John Ford block. Of course, we

didn't do every John Ford Western because we

would be here forever. And we're kind of we're

kind of doing it in threes a little bit. Well,

you know, not exactly. But now we're going to

switch over to our spaghetti Western block. And

as I mentioned in threes, why not start with

what is known as one of the greatest movie trilogies

of all time with the man with no name trilogy?

You know, the good, the bad and the ugly, the

few dollars more. And why am I forgetting the

other one? fish full of dollars yes uh we're

gonna uh we're gonna talk about those uh next

week and then After that, we're going to go into

a few other spaghetti westerns, including Django.

And then lastly, for the spaghetti westerns with

Once Upon a Time in the West, which going into

this is actually my favorite western of all time.

And I thought, you know, people wanted to follow

along. I'm actually going to put up all the ones

we have scheduled at this time. I'm going to

put a list up on my letterbox, which is actually

at Movie Revolt. So if you want to take a look

and check out, that will be the ones we've listed

so far. links to the episodes and then what we're

planning on. So with it being three films, you

know, it might be a little bit longer because,

you know, those are three movies and the, you

know, good and bad, the ugly by itself is three

hours. So, but I'm interested. I'm curious, Kevin,

have you seen any of them and what's your, what's

your, what's your knowledge of them thus far?

I have not seen a single spaghetti Western. I

don't believe. i'm not going to say that i've

researched to make sure that's 100 true but i

don't believe i've seen any spaghetti westerns

okay i have seen the first one i actually just

re -watched uh the first one again recently um

so but i'm going to go back and i've not seen

the second film and i still haven't seen the

good the bad the ugly i knew we were going to

do this and we've been talking about this i'm

like you know what i'll wait until we do that

western retrospective yeah so i feel like i i

should Definitely check the box for The Good,

The Bad, and The Ugly. I've definitely used the

phrase The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly on podcasts

before and different things. I should probably

now finally get around to watching the film that

that's coming from. I will say you probably have

seen, you've definitely seen movies influenced

by it because I know you're a Back to the Future

fan and I think there will be scenes that will

become recognizable pretty quickly. Awesome.

Definitely looking forward to that. That's what

we have in store for you guys coming up. uh hopefully

you'll uh join us on this journey through the

western landscape of film throughout the years

it's going to be a fun and interesting journey

that could take a lot of different twists and

turns so i'm intrigued to see how this all works

out like you go into the hitchcock retrospective

like obviously we hadn't seen all the films but

you know like you know the hits right like we

knew we were gonna rear window and north by northwest

and some of those were probably going to be towards

the top like i'm going through this one having

no idea how this is all going to turn out and

which ones i'm going to go for and which ones

i'm not so it makes it that much more i guess

intriguing for me so i'm definitely uh looking

forward to the the journey so um dan if people

want to get in touch with you uh on social media

how can they do that You can just go to Comic

-Con Chairs on most social media platforms, and

I'm on there, except for Letterboxd, which I'm

at MovieRevolt. And you can search me out at

OptimusSolo on most things. I think I'm just

under my actual name on Letterboxd, so you can

search out Kevin Thompson on there. That does

it for this episode. Tune in next time for another

chance to listen to more of The Cinema Geeks.