Interview with Leonard Kinsey on The Dark Side of Disney

Hey, this is Leonard Kinsey, author of The Dark

Side of Disney, and you are listening to the

Geekcast Radio Network. Welcome to yet another

interview here on GeekCast Radio. I am one of

your hosts, TfGio and Mike, and joining me is

Spade of the Vault Matrix. Hello. Hello, sir.

How are you? I'm doing fine. Awesome. Joining

us now is the man that exposed the dark side

of Disney, Mr. Leonard Kinsey. Hey, Leonard,

how are you? Hey, guys. I'm doing all right.

Good to be here. Awesome. Awesome. So. Where

do we want to start? Do we want to just have

some general chat about this or do we just want

to go straight into the question Spada? Well

Leonard, where did you where did you get the

idea for this book? I got the idea from the book

because well I was born and raised in Florida

about hour and a half from Disney and we used

to go there all the time we had passes that kind

of let us go during the down times as much as

we wanted and so You know, I really liked it

and then I moved away when I was 18 and gradually

kept going back and, you know, even though I

was not living anywhere near there, something

just kept drawing me back to the parks, almost

like they were, you know, it was just a childhood

playground that I'd come to. I had some sort

of nostalgia for and so I kept going back but,

you know, it was kind of boring riding the same

rides over and over again. So I'd make my own

adult kinds of fun. And so people keep asking

me, well, you know, it's just for kids. Why do

you keep going back? Why do you keep going back?

And I tell them and I just got tired of saying

the same thing over and over again. And that's

why I decided to write the book. So the book

is kind of the answer to why do you as an adult

keep going back to Walt Disney World? Awesome.

You said I think you said it in a recent interview

that you've been to Disney at least a hundred

times. Oh, yeah It's yeah, it's got to be more

than that. I think I've probably been to each

Each park well not animal kingdom, but Epcot

Magic Kingdom and Epcot I've probably been each

one of those a hundred times a piece so yeah,

it's it's uh, like I said, we just used to go

all the time and and so I you know, it's especially

especially Epcot I I almost feel like I could

walk these parks blindfolded, just going by the

sounds and the smells. It was kind of like my

backyard, almost. I got to know them really well,

so it feels like a second home, almost. Is there

a specific trip that stands out? Whether it was

a trip growing up going or whether it was any

time recently? I guess the two trips that stand

out were the first visit I had to Epcot. That

one really stood out and I think I was six years

old and I'd been staring at this, they sent this

book out to all the teachers everywhere in Florida

and it kind of had the concept art for the park

in it and I... I remember actually stole it from

the classroom library and brought it home and

I would just sit there and stare at these pictures.

I thought they were so awesome. And then actually

going there and going in that monorail that goes

a loop around the whole park and seeing these

pictures, these paintings that I'd been staring

at in reality and better than I could have imagined

was just... amazing and seeing what what how

computers were used in there and I mean if I

wasn't a geek already that turned me into a total

geek. So that that was that'll always be a memorable

trip. The other one I remember was a kind of

a turning point in how I viewed Walt Disney World

was I think it was the summer after my freshman

year of college we myself and two of my friends,

you know, wanted to take a trip before we all

had to go back to school because we were all

living in separate states and best friends. So

we couldn't think of anything else to do other

than go to Disney. So we went to Disney and got

a cheap hotel room. And that, I think, was the

first time that I'd ever done adult activities

in Walt Disney World, sneaking down the utilities,

drinking a ton, smoking and just having a good

fun time that was definitely not kid -friendly.

so so when when did the i don't want to say the

allure but when did the magic start to wane for

you um it was definitely in high school uh you

know just when you hit puberty and uh you definitely

don't want to have anything to do with the characters

the big mickey and you know Pooh Bear and stuff,

you want to stay as far away from them as possible.

Don't touch me! And yeah, because you're scoping

girls, you know, and you don't want to be seen

hugging these huge, these huge animals, basically.

And I just remember being really annoyed with

my sister and my mother. And, you know, when

you're that age, you don't want anything to do

with your family and kind of striking off on

my own, exploring the parks on my own and. Yeah,

it seemed like things kind of changed when I

when I hit that age and I still enjoyed it Like

I said Epcot was always I don't think Epcot ever

lost its allure just because it you know, it

is a total park for geeks But as far as Magic

Kingdom goes, yeah, definitely it was it was

around high school Now back then there was Epcot

Magic Kingdom Did they have Universal at that

time? Did they have any of the other bigger parks?

Well, the the back then it was called MGM Studios.

That opened up when I was still in high school.

And then about I guess it was about a year later,

Universal Studios opened up because what had

happened is Disney found out that Universal was

building. Universal, and they decided to beat

him. Eisner wanted to beat him to the punch,

so they kind of did a rush job and built MGM

Studios, and then Universal. And I remember being

there for, I think it was one of the first days

that Universal Studios opened too, and it was

a catastrophe. I mean, it was a total disaster.

I think maybe one ride worked, and I remember

they gave everyone tickets to come back. Like

free tickets to come back some other time and

yeah, it was a mess. Whereas MGM opened and everything

was fine, but there really wasn't anything there.

It was like there was like two rides maybe. And

it's still kind of like that. It is. Yeah. Now

I agree. It's really weird because that's where

I went for my honeymoon in 2007 and there wasn't

much to do at MGM. No, I still think it's like

a half day park, like you can get it done in

a half day. Oh yeah, we did a half day there

and then we went back to Epcot and then we came

back to MGM to do the night laser show. Fantastic,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably the way to

do it. because I don't know it used to be so

that the tram tour that they had was a lot more

extensive and they had a working back lot where

they were actually filming stuff so it was kind

of interesting for that but they had an animation

studio with working animators all that's gone

now they did add some more rides but I don't

know I still it's definitely you know one of

there's some good things about it but it's not

up to the same level as Epcot or Magic Kingdom

Well, what have been some of the biggest changes

you've seen? Obviously, MGM and now the Animal

Park, which is my favorite of the parks now.

What are some of the biggest changes? In my mind,

the biggest change was Epcot completely changing

its theme. It was an educational theme park at

its roots and it had a the whole point was to

give you optimism about the future, you know,

technology was going to create this amazing future.

And it kind of went from that to being really

dumbed down and catering to, you know, the people

who want thrill rides and putting all these characters

in there so the kids could see Mickey Mouse.

The masses. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know,

that's the sad thing is that the masses, I think,

were being enriched by the original theme of

Epcot and now no one walks away from that really

gaining anything except for you know some flashes

of you know thrill rides but it's not a long

-lasting thing that they walk away with which

is disappointing and I remember back when I went

when I was a kid Mike you probably remember as

well when you went into the dome there was the

I don't It was a ride, but it was a it was a

slower ride and they had the animatronic dinosaurs

and it was very much about the future of technology.

Now it's hosted by Ellen. Oh, yeah, that's the

universe of energy, actually. Yes. Yeah, that

used to be. And now it's Ellen's energy adventure.

It does have Bill Nye, the science guy in it.

So I guess that's one point for it. Maybe it's

something. Yeah, you're right. It used to be

very dramatic, sweeping, kind of awe -inspiring

show, and then they, you know, again, kind of

dumbed it down and made it funny. So it's disappointing.

I'm trying to remember if it was Magic Kingdom

that had this, or if it was Epcot. I could have

sworn it was Epcot. As a kid, I've been to Disney

World. I've never been to any of the others other

than the one in Florida. I have no desire to

go to any of the others other than the one in

Florida. But I've been five times in my lifetime.

And I went in 1986, and I was six years old.

And we did the Small World ride. And there was

a ride with Figment on it. And I could have sworn

that was an Epcot. It was, yeah. Journey into

imagination, that's in the Imagination Pavilion.

Kind of a big pyramid -shaped glass pavilion.

And yeah, I think it was in 1998 that they actually

refurbished that ride, which sounds pleasant

enough, but it wasn't. What they actually did

was gutted it and took Figment out entirely.

See that's the funny thing because I went in

86 and then I went like three times between 91

and 95 and by 95 Figment wasn't even there. I

don't remember. I don't remember a figment in

95 But as a kid, you know, I loved like, you

know Little plush dolls that you could buy them

and everything else but in the ride as a six

-year -old scared the living shit out of me That's

great. You know, that's that was that that's

the funny thing about a lot of those Disney dark

rides is that they do have very ominous parts

to them that are scary, like the Snow White ride,

Mr. Toad's wild ride. But I think that's kind

of what's cool about them. And when you're whitewashing

everything and making it all just happy -happy,

then it's not quite as interesting, I don't think.

Now, Spada asked you about some of the biggest

changes over the years. A follow -up to that

would be, in your opinion, As the park has evolved,

do you think it's for the better or has it just

kind of lost its magic? Yeah, I definitely think

Epcot has lost a large majority of its magic.

Magic Kingdom has pretty much stayed the same.

They kind of have to. There's always maintenance

issues. Those kind of go up and down. It's almost

like a cycle, you know some years it'll you'll

see paint peeling paint everywhere and you know

trash on the ground which you normally should

never see and then it'll pick back up again and

everything will be great for a few more years

and but That is not the case with Epcot that

actually I think Went through a major downturn

where it's not anywhere near At least for me

as the kind of person that I am, I always thought

that it was almost like the physical embodiment

of Starfleet Academy or something you would see

in Next Generation. It just looked like that

to me and I thought that was really cool. And

all the rides, same thing, when you went in them,

they all had that kind of future outlook to them

that... was very similar to Star Trek, a lot

of optimism, a lot of hope, a lot of, well, technology's

pretty cool, and that's not there anymore, which

some people may like. They may think that's an

improvement. I personally don't. Yeah. And I

think, at least for me, seeing all the advertising

and everything else, because I sadly watch a

lot of Disney Channel, all the advertising they

show on there, and obviously it is their channel,

but They show Epcot for maybe five seconds in

a 30 -second ad. The rest of it is all Magic

Kingdom or it's, you know, hey, come see the

Princess and the Frog show or come see the new

light show we've got going on. And with Magic

Kingdom, I liked it. They constantly... You know,

obviously they have to keep the core characters,

Mickey, Minnie, Goofy, Donald, all that stuff.

But I like how they incorporate stuff like Lion

King and a lot of the Phineas and Ferb stuff

is incorporated now sometimes. I do like that.

But I just think that Epcot has, it's essentially

been like, it's almost a red -headed stepchild

at this point. I mean, it almost was from day

one, I would say. I mean, the immediate thing

that people said Epcot stood for was every person

comes out tired. That was like the running joke.

I mean, it is. It's a big park and it's a huge

park, actually. I think if you walk the entire

park, you end up walking something like eight

miles or something. And that combined with kind

of the somber seriousness of some of the rides,

you know, there was no Space Mountain, there

was no Thunder Mountain. And I think, so from

the very beginning, the press didn't really know

how to approach this park. And to be honest,

you know, New Year did the company. Epcot was

originally supposed to be... an actual city where

people lived in. And when Walt Disney died, they

just didn't know how to make that happen. He

knew how to make it happen, but they didn't have

anyone with that sort of vision and leadership

and the ability to rally sponsors. They didn't

have that. So they turned it into a theme park,

which he would have hated. So it was kind of,

you know, from the very beginning, it had its

thematic issues, I guess. But now they just don't

have a clue what they're doing with it. It sounds

like a marketing problem because as soon as you

walk in, you've got, OK, you've got this old

retro futuristic stuff here. And then, oh, here's

the test track. And here are some thrill rides.

And then here's the rest of the world. Right.

Yep. It's like, wait, what? Yeah. And you know

that the world showcase part was was intended

and I think serves its purpose as kind of a permanent

world's fair. And that's great. And that part

of the park has not diminished. It hasn't improved.

There were supposed to be three or four other

countries that they were going to add to that

that were in the planning stages and that never

got added. But on the other hand, it hasn't gotten

any worse. It's still kept up well. It's still

really neat to walk around there. Yeah, that

that part of the park is continuing to serve

its purpose. It's just the future world section

that that isn't Yeah, and it's funny because

you have Epcot. You've got Magic Kingdom, which

is obviously their Front -runner it's what they're

putting their money really bunny what they're

putting their money into Yep, and then you've

got Epcot which they don't really know what to

do with MGM which is studio which is a disaster

and Then you've got this winning hit with the

animal kingdom. Yeah, people do like it. Yeah,

it's a lot of fun. I loved it when when we went.

It was my favorite part by far, except for the

parade. Yeah, that's the bad part about the parade

that park. If a parade comes through, you're

not getting anywhere. You're just stopping and

watching the parade like you don't have a choice.

You can't because the streets are too narrow.

Exactly. Yep. Yep, that is totally true. And

God help you if you need to use the bathroom

when that parade comes through. Oh, yeah. All

the dads. Just disappear into the bathroom. Really?

Yeah, we noticed that during the day three different

times. Yeah, that we got caught by the parade

and you just see all the dads go to the bathroom.

That's great. Yeah, you know, it's similar in

Magic Kingdom. When a parade comes through, it

gets very difficult to navigate the walkways

because they just get crowded up. And that was

probably the only time that I ever go down to

the utilidors, which are the underground tunnels,

anymore. It's because I'm not standing there

or I'm not dealing with, you know, trying to

push through to a crowd of people when I can

literally walk through a doorway, go down a flight

of steps and then pop out, like, way far away

from that parade. with no trouble at all. So

now speaking of the Utilidors, when did you start

finding these things? Was it in your teenage

years or when you got a little older? It was

it was in college. It was that that summer after

my freshman year. And it was like just about

that time when kind of BBS's were. you know,

springing up and you know, you could connect

to them and kind of download the, you know, the

map, like art that was ASCII art, character -based

art. And someone posted a map of the Utilidor's

character art map and we were like, whoa, like

we didn't even know that was down there. You

know, going to this park so many times and not

knowing that underneath it was an entirely separate

You know thing that mirrored the whole upstairs

was just a mind totally blew my mind. It's like

we gotta see that And turns out you know that

once we found the first door to get down there

You know, we would just take every we got down

there and then we just go back up every stairway

that we saw to find all the other doors and they're

all unmarked and They're all kind of hidden but

none of them or most of them don't say keep out

or cast members only or anything They're just

unmarked doors. So yeah that that got that really

Really really got to be a cool way to enjoy the

park because it was almost like scavenger hunt

and it was super neat and And I like said I still

go down there occasionally You know when when

the need arises I love in your book the ASCII

art of the Utilidors. I swear I've seen this

outline in some RPG from the 80s or something.

It's very possible. Like I said, we got it from

a BBS and it's not super accurate. Obviously

being ASCII art, it's not going to be super accurate.

But it was enough to get our imagination's kind

of running wild like you know you see this this

stupid little map and you're just like wow this

is a whole other world you know it's like columbus

getting like you know a map of the americas or

something if you you know be like wow this is

out there something like that so i uh yeah it

was just as stupid and and ridiculous as that

map looks it really opened up a whole new world

for my friends and i And another thing that I

find really interesting is there are no signs.

No keep out or anything like that, because if

you go to any other park, you're going to see,

oh, employees only cast only. Yeah. But you don't

see that and you just think that it's part of

the building or it's just there and you don't

pay any attention to it. That's exactly right.

And, you know, it is it just looks like almost

like kind of like they're painted on. or that

they're just, you know, part of the architecture.

And like I said, I'd gone who knows how many

times and just never paid any attention to them

at all. And it wasn't until I realized that they

were there that I started looking, you know,

and really paying attention. And then they're

pretty obvious. But even then, like you said,

there's no signs on them that say keep out or

anything. So. Now, you know, I know you said

in the book that they're Was a time or two that

you got caught and you just say oh we're looking

for the restroom or we you know We got lost in

the way of the restroom so like that has anyone

ever said you you cannot be down here and like

forcibly removed you like security or anything

like that or is there do you know of anyone that

that has happened to because it just seems to

me that These utility doors in this whole underground

part of the park Obviously, it's for maintenance

and everything else It would just seem that they

would have like not really security, but they

would have tighter measures. They would have

video surveys something Yeah, I mean so the the

thing is once you're down there It's it there's

there's not a chance of you getting caught unless

you're being stupid like doing something really

dumb like making an ass out of yourself, right

because That's where all the cast members kind

of come in and go out and you know, there's a

lot of people in plain clothes walking around

and if you're not looking suspicious, they're

just not going to give you a second look. Now

the part where I have gotten caught is actually

going in there because there is no reason why

anyone in plain clothes should be opening up

one of those doors. In other words, only uniform

cast members should be going down there. had

people see me opening the doors and stop me right

then. What are you doing? What do you think you're

doing? And then I'll just be like, oh, what?

This isn't the bathroom? And I've gotten caught

doing other things. I recently snuck up to Imageworks,

which is an imagination pavilion. It was the

second floor of that pavilion. It was kind of

like a high -tech playground where you'd go up

and and do all these neat things with computers

and stuff. Ever since the refurb, it's been closed

and I wanted to see what was up there. So I snuck

up there and filmed it and it's all messed up

and exposed wiring and no lights, it's pitch

black in places. I was pretty freaked out and

I get to the very end and I'm about ready to

leave and totally got busted. And I pulled the

same routine, you know, oh, what do you mean

I'm not supposed to be up here? It's really nice,

you sure? And oh, well, okay, I'm sorry. And

you know, by the end of it, the person's just

feeling really bad for me, just like they think

I'm a complete idiot. And you know, they let

me go. But that is the main reason why I wear.

a disguise. So anytime I'm photographed or I'm

going to be on video, I wear some sort of mask

or something because I know if I get caught and

they know, like if people who work there know

what I look like, those excuses aren't going

to fly. They'll just be like, oh, no, I know

who you are. You're coming with me. Kind of ties

into the next question of has the company or

the parks or anything have this Disney ever said

anything about the book I mean because this is

a book that says The dark side of Disney I mean

Disney technically is a copyrighted name and

I know that you can use it in your book and whatever

else as long as you cite Stuff like that, but

has the company said anything you know I that

I was really really really worried about that

when I first Publish the book, you know, like

it's immediate lawsuit type thing and what I

what I came to find Through through talking with

various people is that there really is no Company

there is no Disney company. There's like, you

know countless smaller subsidiaries companies,

you know agencies Departments none of whom talk

to each other all of whom have different agendas.

Oh god, so it's like Sony Yeah, it's like any

huge company, you know and and so really I realized

the only people that the public ever hears from

are Probably the Imagineers who are the artistic

purveyors? So anything you're gonna hear about

you know the parks usually is one of them as

a spokesman used to be Michael Eisner He used

to come out and talk a lot and then Disney legal

You know, you hear about it when they shut down

a daycare because they've got Disney figures

painted on their walls. So, and I think lately

Disney Legal's really kind of cooled down a bit

because it's just bad press if they keep suing

people, you know, who obviously are well -intentioned

or, you know, have a product that people like.

So, I haven't heard from Disney Legal, but I

have heard from Plenty of people in other departments

cast members and they you know for the the large

portion of them just love it and You know last

time I was in the parks People the girl that

I go around with, Draven Starr, who's the cover

model of the book. She kind of accompanies me

on the trips and is in all the videos and stuff.

She's kind of the face of the book, I guess.

We got stopped a lot in the rides and stuff by

cast members of people who recognized her and

were telling her how much they love the book

and stuff, the cast members who were working

the rides. So that was really cool. I've heard

from higher ups. For example, some of the managers,

some of the supervisors are buying multiple copies

of the book and handing it out to their employees

so they can know what scams to be on the lookout

for. Read this stuff and if you see anyone doing

this stuff, then you know it's a scam and don't

let them get away with it type thing. So it's

like a training manual almost. So that's kind

of fun. That's pretty cool. That is pretty cool.

Yeah, I thought that was neat. So, I mean, the

reaction's been fairly positive from people who

work for Disney, and I do get a few nasty emails

or comments from some cast members, but the large

majority get it and they enjoy it. But as far

as something official from the Disney company,

no, I haven't heard anything. That's good. Yeah,

it is. I'm fine with that. So I have to ask other

than the poisonous snakes. What is the weirdest

thing you have found? Like the weirdest creepy

wildlife that they have out there No, I let me

rephrase that other than like what is just the

strangest like mind -blowing thing you have found

in your adventures huh Well, I mean like I said

the utility doors in general were pretty mind

-blowing and then you know that this being pre

-internet There wasn't anything out there about

him now You can go on the internet and you can

you can read up on the utility doors and find

out all about him and everything But they didn't

have that so Just realizing that the Magic Kingdom

is really the second story You know, it's it's

it's the second level the utility doors are level

number one Magic Kingdom was built on top of

those that was pretty mind -blowing and I was

just really impressed with what a feat of engineering

that was because it is it's amazing and I mean

they basically dredged a swamp you know poured

a bunch of concrete over it made these tunnels

and then built a theme park on top of that it's

just incredible so I mean I think that's pretty

amazing and that was done at what the 50s or

the 60s that was uh I think they started it in

67 and it finished in 72 is when it opened So

they started planning it I think around 67, but

yeah, I mean it's just it is it's it's impressive

But as far as like one of the weirdest things

that I've seen or that I've heard of around there

That I just think is it's pretty wild. Is that

brain -eating amoeba? Yes, the night is it Nigerian

Yeah, it's very foul or your something like that.

Yeah, that's the one of the things I say is don't

go swimming in like any of the ponds or anything

right and it's made news recently because people

have been Getting getting this thing from their

neti pots so they they use their neti pots with

tap water and it's in some tap water and And

basically what it does is you get it through

your nose It goes up your nose into your brain

and then basically gives you an extremely severe

form of meningitis, kind of. They call it a brain

-eating bacteria. And there's no cure. You die

within a few days. That's just it. And naturally,

it lives in warm water in the silt. And so if

you're swimming around a lake and you get some

silty water up your nose, well, maybe you'll

die. Now for, you know, if you're out in the

middle of the lake, water skiing or something,

chances are that you're not going to find it

there. But they used to be able to swim on all

the beaches and all the resorts, the Polynesian,

the Grand Floridian, the Contemporary, used to

be able to go out and swim there. They even had

a wave machine at the Polynesian that kind of

Made waves on that big beach there. Unfortunately

was he it was eroding the beaches so they had

to shut it off Yeah, so but no no more you're

not allowed to swim on those beaches anymore

and even river country was a was over by Fort

Wilderness and used the natural lake water as

its water source, and that shut down. People

say it's because of the bacteria. I don't know

if I believe that. I think that got shut down

because they opened up two other water parks

and there was no reason to keep that one open,

but anyway. So yeah, that's pretty wild, that

brain -eating bacteria, or brain -eating amoeba.

Yeah. Because the whole point of the book is

you're showing people, you know, how to have

a more adult Adventure vacation thing and you

talk about in the book about sex drugs and rock

and roll. Yep, you know When I got to the whole

sex section, I swear to God I I burst out laughing

Don't scare people by attempting to hump goofy's

leg It's true nearly died laughing at that line

don't do it Nice I'm just getting this picture

of goofy just like Belting somebody Oh good,

I've been watching in preparation for talking

to you I've been watching some of the videos

on the website. Oh cool, and I watched the the

tattoos video and I I'm assuming you don't still

have it, but do you still have your book cover?

Tattoo on the back of your neck? Funny thing

about that is apparently those temporary tattoos

don't react too well to chlorine Like the next

day I went swimming and I think the chlorine

like dissolved it off, which is fine You know,

I've got like hundreds of them, but so so meanwhile,

you know The girls go get a real tattoo on the

back of their necks a real Disney tattoo and

I put a temporary tattoo and mine comes off a

day and They've got theirs for life But now that

was cool. So that was Pentacus and and Draven

Dravens the cover model They both got dark side

of Disney tattoos on the backs of their neck,

which was really neat But How has the book done

I mean not not asking actually how much money

have you made off of it? But I mean like it's

gotten though. I know it's gotten a lot of popularity,

but I mean, how is it doing? I mean, it's massively

exceeded my expectations. You know, it's really

flattering. If you look at Amazon's rankings,

if you look at the book on Amazon, you can see

where it's ranked in the various categories.

You know, it's ranked in whatever, Southwest

travel guides and it's... It usually stays number

one on Southeast Travel Guide. It usually stays

number one in that category. It's also in the

humor category, and that's where it's really

neat. If I look at my ranking on there, I'm in

there with all these people that I just massively

admire. Someone like Kevin Smith, someone like

Tina Fey, all these great comedy writers. Sometimes

surpassing them in sales, which is just astounding

and and and so, you know that's that's pretty

cool and and the only thing that kind of is crappy

is that Because I'm not published by one of the

big major publishers I'm not qualified to be

listed in the New York Times bestseller list

That sucks, but other people who I'm out selling

are and they are on the New York Times bestseller

list and You know overall sales rank on Amazon

Those figures don't lie. You know it's like Not

even looking at the at the different categories

that I'm out ranking them and just overall Yeah,

and I'm out selling them so you know technically

New York Times bestseller, you know in in actuality

not so much, but Well, see here. Here's the thing

like you put out a very unique Behind -the -scenes

look at the Walt Disney World parks Versus and

this is no disrespect to him. I love the guy

in all, you know I love everything the guy has

done pretty much, but Kevin Smith will write

a book about this adventure he had somewhere,

and that's just one adventure. You put a lot

of hard work. All of the tips and tricks that

you put into this book about the hotels and the

drink vouchers and everything else, it's very

informative and it's also funny. Kevin Smith,

no disrespect to the man, he can write an autobiography.

That's really what he can write about, you know,

it's not like and I think this is probably the

only Book about the parks I've ever seen I mean

other than like, you know travel guides and stuff

like that But I mean, I don't think anyone has

ever done this Well, they haven't and that's

one of the reasons why I wanted to write it because

I was searching for information About the kind

of trip that I wanted to take to Disney World

and it just wasn't out there and you know You

kind of gleam it from There's like Walt Disney

World for lovers. You know, you think, wow, it's

gonna have like the best places to have sex.

You don't say the word sex once in the entire

book. How can you make a book called Walt Disney

World for lovers and not talk about sex? It doesn't

make sense. And then there was another book called

Mouse Junkies. I'm thinking like, wow, they're

gonna talk about like best places to do drugs.

Nope. Didn't mention drugs once It's like hoarders

for Disney people It just it was dumbfounding

to me that people assumed not assumed but kind

of the overarching idea of Disney was the second

you step onto property any vice you have immediately

disappears well Do I drink? Well, I'm not gonna

be drinking now. Do I smoke pot? Well, apparently

not anymore. Do I have sex? No, no, no more sex,

you know. Anything that was even slightly non

-puritanical was, you know, out the window when

you hit property. And I knew that was crap, you

know. It's just that people are people, you know.

They're not gonna stop drinking or doing drugs

or having sex or cursing or, you know, whatever

just because they are on Walt Disney World property.

And there was nothing out there that kind of...

of acknowledge that very simple reality. And

so that's probably one of the reasons why it's

been popular, because it takes real life and

applies it to a very non -real -life setting,

which is cool. Well, I was also going to say,

and I think another reason the book is popular

is because a lot of this, this is all repeatable.

People can do this while Kevin Smith was... will

will string this fantastic yarn that will never

occur ever again. Yeah. So. Oh, yeah. I mean,

it is a travel guide in all sense of the word.

I mean, these are tips you can you can or you

can use them. And, you know, I do give caveats

to some of the ones that are possibly illegal

or that can get you kicked out. But you can certainly,

you know, use these these tips if you want to.

Yeah, they apply to everybody. You know, I'm

not the only one who can go down the utility

doors. So, yeah, just make sure you don't get

caught going down there. That's the key. Yeah.

You know, I think that the the major I wouldn't

say it's a blockade of sorts, but the major thing

about Disney and Walt Disney World in the parks

and. the overall company itself. It's a family

company. They're not marketing towards people

like us who, you know, are adult and want to

have an adult vacation in this, you know, family

-friendly park. And that's how they, you know,

advertise themselves. Hey, family of four, you

can have this weekend at Disney, or you can do

this, you can do that. So... And I don't think

it's that they... Don't advertise to people like

us. I think it's they can't just based on the

brand and you know That's why Eisner for example

did something very smart when he Opened up touch

tone pictures where they could release movies

that Disney couldn't release for sample splash

You know Darryl Hannah coming out of the water.

You know nude that couldn't be a Disney film

along the same lines Possibly that's why I haven't

heard any you know anything from disney legal

because i'm kind of doing what they can't do

appealing to an audience that they can't appeal

to that they are just not able to market to.

Yeah, because you're not going to get an autograph

signing, you're not going to get an event at

Walt Disney World saying, hey, here's Leonard

Kinsey, the author of Dark Side of Disney in

the middle of Magic Kingdom. That's not going

to happen. Not going to happen. Nope. But again,

I'm getting people to go to the parks who maybe

otherwise wouldn't have ever thought they could

have a good time there. It's very, very awesome.

Yeah, and it's true. And at the very least, I'm

hopefully helping out bored husbands to find

some fun things to do while their kids are off

running around and whatnot. But yeah, I do think

it appeals to an audience that the Disney company

cannot normally appeal to. And I love Disney.

I have nothing against them. It's part of my

childhood. I go there. three or four times a

year. I love it. I think Walt Disney is he's

one of he's he's one of the great historical

figures, you know, total genius. I look up to

him and have huge respect for for him. But, you

know, that doesn't mean that that I have to share

all the values of the company does now. And,

you know, Walt Disney himself cursed like a sailor.

you know and and uh smoke like a chimney and

certainly uh you know drank um right but you

know but again it all goes to public perception

and public image at that point you know because

you would i mean even in today's age i'm sorry

you would not see a story of walt disney you

know gets his children taken away because he's

drunk and ranting on the internet you know i

mean you wouldn't see that with him because of

this very public image that the company has to

keep up. I'm sure there might be a story here

and there, stuff like that, but obviously you're

not going to see stuff like that. The website

is darksideofdisney .com. What can people expect

to see over there? Is there going to be a sequel

to the book, like an updating at some point?

Actually the website is kind of, so there's a

blog on the website, that's kind of like my continuing

adventures. So I probably won't make a sequel

to the Dark Side Disney, I'll just keep updating

the blog with all the new and fun and interesting

things that I do, new adventures that I go on,

new places I sneak into. Saw one of them one

of the videos I think it was like last day of

the trip I forget which it was like one of the

it was like two videos before the tattoos and

It was you know, hey, this looks like water,

but it's really not and I was like No, there's

no way he's gonna get away with that and it's

like what do you got there sir? Oh, it's just

water. Okay. Yeah That's totally yeah, that was

fun So funny and it was you know, just a water

bottle filled with gin all the way up to the

top and You know, it's it's interesting that

That's one of the big things is there the crowds

going into that park are so massive for most

of the day that They just don't have time to

do rail security checks. I mean, it's a show,

essentially. They've got people out there purely

for show, pretty much. And they're not really

stopping anything by looking in your bag. They're

stopping something by giving you the thought

that they might find something bad that you're

bringing in. So that just keeps people from bringing

in guns or whatever. But they're not going to

open up every water bottle and sniff it. You

know they just that the lines would be you know

out down to you know st. Pete if they did that

it yeah They just would they just can't can't

do that So yeah, that's that was pretty funny,

and I also had a bunch of little airline bottles

Stuffed into my socks If you're at the airport,

you're so getting busted. Yeah, that one worked

through x -ray. Hey, maybe they will put x -ray

machines or whatever. Let's hope not. Yeah, that

would be lame. But yeah, so people can go to

the blog and kind of see the new things I'm getting

into and watch my videos. And then I'm also publishing

a new book, which will be coming out next month.

And this is a... It's a fiction book, it's a

novel about a guy who has kind of has a breakdown

and decides that he's gonna go live in the only

place where he was ever really happy, which was

Walt Disney World. So he goes and lives at Walt

Disney World and it's about all the weird people

he meets and kind of the seeming underbelly of

the culture that he decides he... You know, it's

there, so. That reminds me of the Tom Hanks movie,

The Terminal. It's kind of like that. Guy is

stuck in the terminal and he can't leave and

he ends up living there. Yeah, it's kind of like

that. And again, you know, all the weird characters

that the guy meets. I've been describing it as

kind of like... Freddy Stinellas goes to Disney

World like American Psycho in Disney World. It's

still got the violence and the drug use and the

sex and stuff. What's the name of the new book?

The name of the new book is Our Kingdom of Dust

and you can actually go to bambooforestpublishing

.com. That's my publishing company and that'll

give you information on all the new books that

I'll be coming out with. I got a few more in

the pipeline that weren't written by me but are.

Books about Disney that Disney would not put

out themselves. So that's kind of gonna be my

my thing going forward so I Think it'll go well.

Yeah, you got anything else you want to talk

about Spada? I'm good to go sir All right, you

can also follow Leonard on Twitter. It's dark

side. It's dark side Disney Yeah, I thought it

was dark side of it first, but it's dark side

Disney. Yep And as we said, go to darksideofdisney

.com. You can find all this stuff there. Go to

his publisher's website as well. Find all the

other books there. And it's been great having

you on. So thank you very much. Thanks a lot,

guys. It's been fun.