Interview with Joe Clark on The C.O.W.L. Sessions

Hi, this is Joe Clark, composer of The Cowell

Sessions, and you are listening to the GeekCast

Radio Network. Hello and welcome to a GeekCast

Radio Network crossover interview between The

Pull Bag and the flagship show GeekCast Radio.

I am your host. Mike TFG1 Blanchard. And the

reason why this is being featured on both GCR

and the pullbag feed is because my guest this

evening is someone who composed and arranged

a jazz soundtrack album for a comic book series.

I am talking to Joe Clark of the Joe Clark Big

Band. Hello, sir. Hi, Mike. How are you doing?

I am doing well. How are you, sir? Oh, I'm doing

real well. Thank you. Yeah, I follow Kyle Higgins

on Twitter and pretty much everywhere else that

I can find him. No, I'm not stalking him, ladies

and gentlemen. And I've been reading his series

over at Image Comics entitled Cowell, Chicago

Organized Workers League, obviously based on

his short film, The League. And he announced

that... the comic was going to get a jazz soundtrack

album that at Joe Clark Chicago was going to

be doing the music on this. Before we get too

far into that, looking at your website, you are

from Chicago. Yes, sir. You're still living there,

which is good. Growing up, how did you... Get

into music in general. What were you listening

to as a kid? Well, actually my parents met through

music They were met at an open mic of all things

and So growing up there's a lot of music around

the house. They ended up starting a wedding band

When on days when they would have rehearsals

they would close the windows and pretend it was

nighttime, so I'd fall asleep And then I'd usually

wake up later in the evening. I'm still kind

of a night owl because of it, but Around the

house, there was always classic jazz playing,

classical music, rock. And whenever my mom wasn't

home, my dad would always play more experimental

things, stuff that she might not enjoy as much.

Everything from Bulgarian folk singing to fusion

from the 70s, more noise -based rock, Captain

Beefheart, that kind of thing. So it was kind

of a smorgasbord growing up of music. Awesome

said Bulgarian folks singing also can think of

as Disney Channel's Phineas and Ferb. Oh More

Bulgarian folks singing. Oh, no less less What

led you from listening to all this music as a

kid and teenager and you know on into adulthood

to want to go to school to become a composer

a a creator of music You know the path to writing

songs actually came my dad founded a freeware

program where you could write little tunes in

there and so I just played with it and kept playing

with it and kept playing with it and eventually

I had a bunch of stuff that I had written and

thankfully one of my teachers in elementary school

caught on that I was doing this and she would

take the pieces I wrote and project them onto

a screen during the choir concerts to sort of

something to cover the transition between groups

But I never really thought it was something you

could get into. That was kind of a mystery to

me. I'd seen Amadeus and sort of figured that

you had to have it or you didn't. And so I really

worked on playing trumpet. And I really doubled

down on getting my trumpet chops together. And

one day in high school, there's a fantastic jazz

trumpeter in Chicago named Orbert Davis. And

he was running a band of high school kids. from

the south suburbs and and so I sort of asked

him like well I kind of want to get into music

but I only think I can teach because I'm not

good at like I'm not just a wunderkind at this

he says well why can't you just do it you should

do it if you want to do it and so uh I went I

went for it I went to DePaul University and studied

classical composition and jazz trumpets and got

a master's degree in jazz comp and I've been

playing and teaching ever since. What is your

favorite part about sitting down and coming up

with a new jazz tune for your own purposes? Whether

it's a new album, whether it's a new collaboration

with somebody, what's your favorite aspect of

the creative process of coming up with a new

tune? Oh man, that's a really good question.

I think the best part is when it's working. Anything

that is moving forward is a good feeling. Sometimes

the tunes just show up, like for example, Grey

Raven on the new album. It was the kind of thing

where Kyle said, we should come up with a theme

for Grey Raven. And I sat down and played the

first thing, sent it to him. He's like, that's

it, we're done. But it's not always like that.

And there's been a couple of times that I wrote

a tune for an album that's coming out via Mark

Hebert, the very saxophone player on the album.

And it's only like a two minute long melody,

but it took me about two months to finish it

because it just wasn't quite right. So I guess

to answer the question, the best part is when

things start flowing, when you hit that state

of flow and it's very natural. Absolutely. Looking

at your website here, which will be linked in

the interview post on geekcasterator .com, your

music has been performed by a bunch of people,

including Yo -Yo Ma. What was that experience

like? That was really wild. Actually, Yo -Yo

Ma has played a couple things that I've written

through the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's Institute.

that is sort of an outreach program for children.

So we did a flash mob once at the Thompson Federal

Center. I worked with another composer, arranger

named Cliff Kolnot, and we did an arrangement

of American Beautiful. But then Yo -Yo Maas played

a couple other things there. It's been great.

He's always such a busy guy. There's not a lot

of FaceTime. One of the best experiences was

We do this children's program called Once Upon

a Symphony. In fact, we're about to start another

round, not with Yo -Yo Ma, but another show just

this week. And the theme was the ugly duckling.

And I knew that Yo -Yo Ma would be playing, and

one of the pieces they wanted to do... was The

Swan by Camille Sasso from the Carnival of the

Animals which is this gorgeous cello solo just

absolutely beautiful and I'm freaking out that

Yo -Yo Ma is gonna be playing this cello solo

and so I write it and rewrite it and polish it

and re -edit it and I finally get it and I pour

my guts into this thing and I finally get up

to the show and there's two cellists. Oh no.

But it's okay because one of them is Ken Olson

of the Chicago Symphony who's amazing. They're

two amazing cellists. But as I'm looking at this,

I'm thinking, yeah, they're not both good at

playing. And so when it comes time for the show,

Ken is the one who takes the solo part, which

is cool. And Yo -Yo just improvises bird sounds

over the whole thing. Does it sound like a swan?

I couldn't even believe it. It just sounded like

birds. It was really cool. So sometimes, and

this is one thing I like about jazz. and improvised

music in general is sometimes what the musicians

bring to the table is better than what you have

on the page. The other major person I notice

in your biography on your website here is Your

horn arrangements can be heard on Kanye West

and Malik Youssef's Good Morning Good Night.

Talk about that. I think this is the first person

I've ever talked, actually had an interview with

that actually was that close of a connection

to Kanye West. Talk about that. Well, here's

the thing, too. I'm sorry to burst the bubble

a bit. I've never I've never met Connie. Seriously,

you never came to the sessions or anything. I

think it was Malik wrote a lot of the songs on

808s, you know, and and so I think there there

may have been some exchange there. That group

that was only the group that did the. The horn

parts and the production on that we had our own

little thing for a while was called the 11th

hour And we called ourselves the 11th hour because

we got a chance to record. Oh, I'm sorry Did

you hear those dings by the way, but no, all

right, excellent So We called ourselves the 11th

hour because a producer for one of the tracks

got arrested and we had 11 hours to replicate

that track at a professional level. Oh my god.

And so there was a couple of us and we tried

our hands at it and I'm happy with how it turned

out but it's definitely not what I wanted to

be doing in the long term. So it's been kind

of funny though because I teach at DePaul University

and Northwestern University and every once in

a while a student will bring up rap and I can

I can't completely hang, but I know a bit about

Raph. I was in the game, had a little bit of

skin in the game, and so that sometimes surprises

the students. Yeah, so I'm sorry I can't share

more colorful stories. So you weren't at the

wedding. No, sorry Mike. Oh boy. Alright, so

let's get down to what we're actually here to

talk about, The Cowl Sessions. How did this come

about? You know what's funny? I've been asked

this question more and more frequently, and it's

a convoluted origin story to this. It's not nice

and neat. It's not super heroic. I guess the

first track that I wrote for this album, was

written even before there was a finalized script

for the league um because Kyle had a story treatment

and we were talking let me backtrack just for

a second were you the music guy on the league

yes sir absolutely why the hell isn't that on

on itunes the the music by itself that's a good

question i love the music from that short We

nearly reported that the original cowl was just

the league theme. It got adjusted, so we adjusted,

et cetera. Well, thank you, number one. And so

the thing that was interesting is, because it

was Kyle's senior project, and he's so ambitious

in terms of the scale, I wanted to start writing

just getting mood music. the moment he said that

the project was a go. And so I was still in school

and was writing stuff so that people could record

over, I think it was Thanksgiving break. So we

were recording and some musicians, I actually

had to write the score sometimes. I knew the

drum player, the percussionist, pardon me, had

to leave very soon and I didn't have the whole

score finished so I wrote all the drum parts

before I finished everything else. some of those

drum parts were written before I had any idea

of the final layout of the scene. And we sort

of worked around it. And so anyway, with that

in mind, some of these tunes are almost a decade

old, but they've been growing and gestating.

And I've had performances by different groups

of the pieces because I've tried. Well, they've

had a life outside of the film, which has been

a pleasant surprise. And so Carl and I worked

together on some things, and Carl's the kind

of guy who, for example, he called me up a few

years back and said, I want the Go Go Power Rangers

thing as my cell phone ring. Can you make that

for me? Can you get that? I'll go to the computer

and work out the music. But anyway, when Cowell

first came out, he said, you know, I'm going

to make a trailer. And I think it would be cool

if we had a new track released, every issue for

the first five. And it was just an unfeasible

timeline thing to work out at that time. But

I did write music for the trailer. And that's

where the original Grey Raven theme can be heard.

Grey Raven is a character in the book, podcast

listeners. And from there, I thought we were

done. But then in June or July, I get an email

that says, hey, how long does it take to write

and record a jazz album and get it released?

And I said, we don't have enough time, so let's

do it. And yeah. And so from there, Kyle was

working his way through the first five books.

And I was working my way through the album. And

everyone saw I would touch base. Kyle's mentioned

a few times that he spent so much time in the

world of cowl that it's mutated a little bit,

and he and Alec have had to say, wait a second,

is that character still doing this or not? And

so that was kind of interesting seeing that development

as we're writing, we're both writing our, you

know, I'm writing the album and he's writing

the book. So that's been really fulfilling. And

so then, yeah, I booked. a session in August,

and it was out by October. Yeah, it came out

the week that the... I think you guys really

did plan this. Oh, we absolutely did. It came

out like... Yeah, no, it did. It came out the

week that the Volume 1 trade collection came

out. That was by design. In fact, I think that

was... That was what Kyle said, if you can't

do one for each issue, we'll have to do it when

all five are first published or the first...

Oh man. I've listened to the nine tracks. I've

reviewed it on geekcastradio .com in written

form. Yeah, thanks. It's amazing. Oh, I'm glad

to dig it. It's awesome. Just, you know... throw

it on in the background. I just cracked open

the trade to read it again while listening to

the album because we... This week, this past

Wednesday, because this will be going up on Friday,

this past Wednesday I just released my review

podcast for The Pull Bag for Cowl Volume 1. So

it's kind of, again, another big plan. We already

reviewed the comics, so let's go ahead and talk

to Joe and talk about the Cowl sessions. but

reading it while listening to the music really

adds a hell of a lot more this could almost be

a tv series it really like you guys could do

like a youtube series or something you don't

even have to go to the regular networks But,

I mean, I know that would take up a lot of time

and a lot of production and everything else,

but... Well, I'm going to refrain from commenting.

Right, obviously, it's, you know, it's Kyle's

work. I would have loved to have had him here

tonight, but that could not be helped. But it's

one of those things where, as I was listening

to the tracks and as I was reading the book,

I'm like, wow, this stuff really matches up.

Like, um... Oh... Forgive me, I just reviewed

it and you think I'd remember it. Oh, that's

alright. When they're, I think it's in issue

two when Eclipse and Grant are chasing down,

yeah, it's in issue two, it's when Grant gets

shot. Yeah. When they're chasing down the guy,

uh, you know, sparks immediately came to mind.

It's like, that's good chase music right there.

And then when, uh, when John Pierce is doing

his investigation, obviously, uh, track three

investigations, you know, comes into play. And

I thought that was really well done. I really

do hope you guys do another one, um, after the

next arc, however long the next arc is gonna

be. Thanks. I think, you know, we were, we kept

joking about when we were coming with the title.

I kept saying, well, let's just call it Kyle

Sessions, volume one of 20. Volume one, you know.

And so, yeah, I, man, if Kyle's up for it, I

think I'd be up for it. And if, if Sparks and

Shadows, our label is interested in it, I think.

I can definitely speak for myself and say I would

love to keep doing this. I like the idea of releasing,

in my own music, there's something, when I put

out my first album, Lush, it's for a big band

and we did traditional media in terms of releasing

CDs and we worked with a lot of really talented,

awesome, old jazz media guys. And that was a

great experience. But at the same time, I would

be talking to Kyle, and he's putting out a new

book every month. And it's just a different kind

of culture. Oh, absolutely, yeah. When you put

out the first album, for example, I know you

and I were talking previously, and I had to stop

and think about what year it actually came out,

because we spent so much time with the pre -release.

And all the planning and you have to mail out

the physical copy so it's a different kind of

pace of things So man, there was something something

really fun about working on the comic book turnaround

schedule there's an energy to it and an urgency

which is It reminds me of working in live theater

sometimes where you just have to make a decision.

Yeah, there we go Absolutely, cuz you know, I

mean It depends on the series. It depends on

the publisher but you know sometimes you go month

-to -month work you know I've I've heard interviews

with with writers and artists on comics that

sometimes they go month -to -month writing story

arcs sometimes they go sit and write and do all

the work for you know two or three or four issues

that are coming once a month down the line so

it just really depends but oh yeah totally I

mean honestly like after I would kill not literally

but I would kill for a soundtrack after each

arc of like seriously cowl is probably one of

my favorite non -superhero non -frank is technically

is we it's a non -superhero when i say i'm super

hero i mean it's not dcs it's not marvels it's

not you know what i mean it's sure it's not what

i think of a superhero comic i think of batman

superman you know wonder woman green lantern

there are super heroes in it but it's not that

kind of near right is right exactly i mean this

to me is a period piece comic that is about a

superhero labor union in sixty chicago and that's

unlike anything any publishers doing right now

uh... And so when I say, you know, it's not a

superhero comic, I mean, it's not with DC or

Marvel. It's not a franchise comic like, you

know, He -Man Master's Universe licenses out

to DC or, you know, Transformers licenses out

to IDW. It's a creator -owned comic and, man,

like... I know this would kill Kyle, but I wish.

I wish Cowl was a weekly series. I really do.

I know that would kill it, but it is just that

damn good. Having music to go along with it.

What's going to be interesting for me is, as

issue 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever, come out to see

if the soundtrack can fit some of this some of

the upcoming scenes that kyle is going to write

and and rod rice is going to you know kyle alec

and ron are going to work on and right now straight

and all that stuff to see if it also fits with

what's coming after and alec siegel don't forget

alec alec yeah i did you know i i'm sorry i said

kyle alec and rod forgive me you can edit that

out but uh... because it's it really is going

to be interesting because i know you see As you

already said, he specifically asked you to write

this based around the first arc, which is Principles

of Power. And it's going to be interesting if,

heaven forbid you don't get to do another one,

if this music can fit in any other arc after

this one. Yeah, it's almost a... I don't want

to say a Rorschach test, but see how our minds

process the two. Part of the joy of it is it's

not a temporal one -to -one kind of thing where

you're... there's a matching up to per scene.

I know I had a couple people asking me like,

is there going to be a sign when I should start

playing it? But one of the inspirations to me

was this 1957 Mancini album, the music of Peter

Gunn. And most people know the theme that dum

dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum that part. But

the whole album after that, after the main theme,

is a bunch of stuff that just sort of sets the

mood. Stuff that wasn't always performed in its

entirety on the series. And in some cases, and

this is what really intrigued me, was never played

on the series at all and wasn't even written

for that. It was just, yeah. It was just Mancini's

idea of the mood of the scene and the mood of

the story. And to me, I like thinking musically

in general, but that just suggested such a big

world. There's soundtracks for scenes and stories

that aren't even there. yet, you know? And so,

I don't know, it's gonna be interesting. The

other thing that's gonna be interesting is book

six is being done in the style of an old Silver

Age book, and it's gonna be a standalone. So,

makes me wanna pull out some of the soundtrack

from the original League, some of the trombone

stuff we did with that, you know, nice late -news

reel quality. Oh my god, you have to find a way

to get that on... There's gotta be a way you

guys can submit that to iTunes. It already exists,

correct? Yeah, I think I'd have to go dig in

through the archives. Maybe Kyle is such an organized

guy, he probably is two clicks away from finding

it. Seriously, I would buy that in a heartbeat.

I was actually sitting here at my computer waiting.

You know, on the 27th going into the - I was

sitting here at 1145, just waiting for midnight

to click over here in the Eastern time zone,

just waiting, so I could just hit that buy button.

Oh, thanks, man! You know how to make a guy feel

good! That sounds so wrong. I know what you mean.

But no, people need to take more notice of this

series and of this album. I think I've seen several

other people review it online. I don't remember

where exactly, but just do a search for The Cowl

Sessions and I'm sure... reviews will pop up.

There's more that are coming too. That's one

of the nice things about doing a digital only

release. We can roll it out a little bit. It

feels real nice. Absolutely. I know the artwork

for this one is very blaze heavy since he is

on the cover. That is true. and I do think that

opening track the opening track which is entitled

Blaze I do think that fits the very first battle

scene in issue one of the series so I mean it

does it does work where you can put this on and

Listen to it track one to track nine and at least

through the first two or three issues. You'll

be set for music Then you put it on loop and

you'll be set for the last two. Yeah, that's

true. It's like Dark Side of the Rainbow You

ever done that one? Yeah So what came first the

instrumental version of Chicago or the song version

with Ria Yarbrough, you know when When we first

talked about doing an arrangement of Chicago,

which honestly, I've wanted to work with it.

I just found out it was in the public domain.

So that was really nice to find that out. Kyle

and I both were like, oh, this would make a really

cool vocal thing. And we'd love to have Rhea

on it. But we weren't sure if it was going to

work out schedule -wise. She's in high demand.

And so the challenge was to write an arrangement

that worked both as an instrumental and as a

vocal. And we didn't know until about a week

before the recording session. So even passing

out the music to musicians, I had these parts,

all these notes written in there that, you know,

if there's a vocalist, you'll have to lay out

here because she'll be singing the part. And

it was only a couple of days before the session,

I was able to contact everybody like, we have

a vocalist. But by that point, you know, I've

gotten so familiar to listening to the instrumental.

And I had that in my head, that we decided to

leave them both in. So, yeah, I'm happy with

how it turned out, though. I hate to say it,

but I think her vocal version is the superior

version. Oh, no! Are you kidding me? She's awesome,

number one. And number two, we're lucky to have

her, you know? Yeah. I mean, when I get down

to Chicago, the instrumental version, I'm like,

wait, there's something missing here. Well, the

other thing, too, talking about reading it with

the book, I think that was something that I've

found, you know, reading and listening to it,

it's kind of nice to have it return is a little

bit more subdued at the end. Because, you know,

by the end of the book, without giving too much

away. Now the mood has changed, but it's changed

in a way that the status quo is somewhat maintained.

So musically we're trying to evoke that as a

kind of musical metaphor, so hopefully that works

out in that sense. Absolutely. What other things

are you working on now that Cowl Sessions Volume

1 is out? Oh man, it's been a real busy but fun

couple a couple of weeks since that album came

out, because it's only been a couple of weeks,

wow. I just finished a project with two fantastic

trumpeters, Marquise Hill, who just a few days

ago won the Thelonious Monk Jazz Trumpet Competition

in Los Angeles. Just a crazily nice guy who's

a monstrous player. Real warm, soft. energetic,

intelligent sound. And he was doing a project

with one of his mentors, a trumpet named John

Faddis, who used to perform with Dizzy Gillespie,

this beast. So we just did a big show together

and I'm finishing up a series of arrangements

for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's children's

series. We're getting that started this week,

but I'll be finished hopefully soon. And the

Chicago Sinfonietta. another orchestra in the

area. And yeah, I've got some of my own projects

I'm working on, something also Chicago themed.

So I think there's a little bit more to pull

from there, but that should be coming together

soon. Yeah. Very awesome. Very awesome. All right.

I think that's going to do it really. Absolutely.

Cal sessions, it's amazing people. Go listen

to it, go get the first trade of the series.

You're gonna love it. Where can the people interact

with you online, sir? I am at Twitter, at Joe

Clark Chicago. And you can follow me on Facebook,

also Joe Clark Chicago, and joeclarkbigband .com.

Awesome, awesome. Well, that's going to do it

for us here on Geekcast Radio and Inside the

Pull Bag. Coming up next week, we're going to

be talking about another image series. It would

be interesting to see if jazz music could fit

to this series. I don't think it will, but next

week, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to have

to listen to this episode of the podcast in a

closet away from everybody because we are talking

about Image Comics. series by Matt Fraction,

entitled Sex Criminals. So we'll be talking about

that next week. Huge thanks to Joe Clark. It's

been amazing, dude, talking to you. Oh, thanks,

Mark. This was great. I appreciate it. All right.

We will catch you next time. Chicago, Chicago,

that toddlin' town. Chicago, Chicago, I'll show

you around. It's the town the Chicago 6 just

couldn't shut down. Oh, on the street streets,

that great street, I just want to say. The time

of your life I just saw a man he danced with

his wife in Chicago