Designer Board Games: Definitions and Favorites

Hey, this is Frank Todaro, otherwise known as

Starscream, and you're listening to the Geekcast

Radio Network. This is your episode anyway, so

you're going to be doing all the heavy lifting.

I'm not. I'm just here to host. Well, doesn't

the host do all the heavy lifting? No, the host

When it's other people's topics that people want

to come on and talk about the host does the intro

the outro the editing the Publishing all of the

other Jesse Jesse, you really haven't done podcasts

with people in a long time The host never did

the heavy lifting. Oh, please 13 years of Transformers

comics. You ought to know better. Is this like

the pressure? Is that why we're recording this?

Yes. All right Just so I can have blackmail later

can this can this be in the podcast? Doesn't

usually have to be put it at the end for ruining

everything anyway Well, I could put that at the

end for ruining everything You're listening to

the geek cast radio network Unleash the geek

in you. This is GeekCast Radio episode 299. I'm

of course TF2O and Mike. Joining me is Jesse

aka Matrix Prime. Hello, sir. Oh, hello everyone.

And also joining us is that Charlie Brown adult

voice. It's Ryan the Uneven Flow of Nightbeat.

Hello, sir. How are you? Wow, so you were not

okay with insulting Jesse in the previous open

to the point that you removed it, but you're

okay with insulting me. That's fantastic. Hey,

what are we talking about today, Mr. Host? The

boredom of board games. I mean, they used to

be boring before they got a lot better. Yes.

So we have four topics here tonight. This was

an idea that Jesse wanted to do with the three

of us. And I don't know if that's true. Well,

OK. Well, maybe you didn't want to do it with

me. But yeah, definitely not after you insulted

me. Yeah, you said to me that you wanted to talk

about board games. Well, Ryan also commented

when he was back on Twitter and said, hey, yeah,

we should talk about this sometimes. I'm like,

all right. Yeah, that was before the world went

to even more anyway. But yes, board games. So

we have four overall topics here. Designer board

games. What are they and how do they compare

to regular board games? You want to give that

definition you found and modified, Jesse? Oh,

I got to give the definition now. Okay. Hey,

I just gave the top. Alright, everyone. So what

is a designer board game? So the best definition

I could find online is that it's a less widely

published, sold and marketed board game. It usually

costs more than mass market board games, which

can result in an increase in the component quality.

usually but not always has more intricate rules

than mass market board games and it's often found

in comic and dedicated board game shops though

due to their game popularity do show up in mass

market stores now such as target for example

interesting and i feel like everybody's definition

of these going to be a little different so for

example the page you used is from fun .com And

it's not a bad breakdown. You know, it starts

with and I guess that's sort of our next bit

is when they started. They have the Royal Game

of Ur from the 31st century B .C., which is one

of the oldest board games ever created. Actually,

I think it is the oldest. Yeah, it is. So it

is at least on record anyway. Presuming there

weren't games of tic -tac -toe in caves. Who

knows? But it would be a cave drawing, not a

board game since you draw it on the wall. I guess.

So I feel like everybody's definition of this

is going to be different and they give different

ages and the like. So, for example, I don't really

consider something like a monopoly, a designer

board game to in. This is to me, obviously, is

going to be different for everybody. But to me,

the current crop of designer board great games

are. based around a level of strategy versus

the levels of randomness that the board games

had when we were growing up. Monopoly is one

of the best examples. You can set up your strategy

that, okay, I really want to get a boardwalk

and park place, or I want to own the Baltic and

Mediterranean stuff and put hotels on them cheap

and early, that kind of thing. But if the dice

don't go in your favor, You can end up not owning

enough properties of anything by the end of the

game. Yes. And that to me is an example of its

board game design more based around randomness.

And it's a little hard to come up with a strategy

for them. Yes. And also in my research, trying

to figure all of this out with this designer

board game stuff. Surprisingly difficult, even

though I put the terms into Google, I don't know

what the first designer board game was and what

the story is behind it. Well, I mean, like I

said, everybody's opinion on that is going to

vary. Yeah. You know, to me, the first example

of sort of a designer board game is more in the

Renaissance era of Settlers of Catan in 96. Or

even going a little further, something like Twilight

Struggle. Yep. Yeah, it's definitely more recent.

What is your definition for it, Jesse? I mean,

didn't I just give it to you? Yeah. Well, no,

I'm saying, like, what is your opinion of what

the first... Yes, I was listening. But yeah,

do you have an extension or anything of that

or anything you'd add to it or take away personally?

Don't know that it would add anything or take

away based on what you just explained I would

definitely agree that the monopoly was not within

that realm of designer board games I mean when

we're talking about price and that definition

there, right? Obviously there are extravagant

versions of monopoly But the rule set for monopoly

doesn't change right? You can buy these solid

gold versions of your your monopoly pieces Do

you still have the transformers monopoly? I never

had that no, oh really I yeah, I had it, but

I sold it a while ago for oh Okay, so since Ryan

brought this up, and this is actually what it's

a room thing also man That thing well right,

but it's also a current event thing so there

was Transformers Monopoly coming soon from Hasbro

is Beast Wars Monopoly yeah, so the problem I

just the problem is I don't want to play Monopoly

anymore. So I'm just going to be blunt and this

is not to offend anybody, but a lot of the board

games we're going to get into, frankly, are better

than Monopoly. I mean, there's a lot more mechanics

involved and that's another thing I'd kind of

add to my definition is that there's more intricate

mechanics with a lot of these and we'll get into

it later. But for example, I remember when I

played the first of what I would consider to

be a designer board game in this. And it blew

me away. It plays more like a video game in terms

of the complexity, but also in terms of speed.

So one of the other knocks against some of the

older ones like Monopoly and the others is it

takes you three hours to play a game. You know,

is there a game of Monopoly that doesn't end

with somebody just getting bored and either walking

away or flipping the table deliberately so they

don't have to play anymore? So that's the interesting

thing with the history of board games and how

far we've come with them to get to the designer

games is that Parker Brothers in the olden days

and everything else they were making family board

games. That's why Monopoly is two to ten players

So you can have the entire family fighting over

gets bored Can you imagine a ten player game

of Monopoly? That sounds like hell I think i

think the highest i played was four players when

i was a kid. But the thing of some of these you

know classic games is that it wasn't about like

back then we didn't have the culture that we

have now where you could play candy land and

have fun or you could play clue and you know.

flames on the side of your face like Mrs. White,

or you could play Mouse Trap, even though I hated

Mouse Trap. Took too long to set up. Yeah, took

too long to set up. Yeah, yeah. Commercials made

it look way cooler than it was. Anywho. Absolutely.

You know, you can play these games. I think personally,

the first quote unquote designer one, like the

first board game I ever saw and heard of, I was

like, wait, what is that? It was risk. Because

risk was so different to me than anything else

at the time. Fair. I mean, risk is another one

that it takes a long time and there's an awful

lot of randomness associated with it. Yeah. It's

a lot more difficult to make your own luck. But

yeah, it's definitely an older one. I mean, it's

existed. God, it's been around for a while. Yes

yes it has a big cut nineteen fifty nine yeah

yep fifty nine and that's another thing why am

i will link this this this infographic from this

fun website in show notes in the post. I love

the history and the breakdown of years and where

it's like Milton Bradley buys McLaughlin Brothers

and then Hasbro buys everybody else throughout

like Hasbro owns gaming at this point Yeah, there

isn't yeah When I think of, I think of Milton

Bradley, I think of Parker Brothers, I think

of a few other things. But like, yeah, now it's

like you want board games, you go to Hasbro.

So it's everybody's first what they would consider

designer board game. Because I sure as hell remember

mine. Well, what was yours? Oh, all right. Well,

fine. Mine now hits close to home. Probably a

little too much. It is unfortunately pandemic.

Okay. Oh, no the irony, but I remember it Well,

so I was at the first Ottawa comic -con and they

had a area set aside for board games This was

before it kind of got super popular and premium

so we're now talking 2000 and I want to say 11.

Okay, I believe was the inaugural year And yeah,

it's just we saw it and the person I was with,

Mark, is a friend of mine. And we would end up

playing and going to board game nights together

after this. But we just sort of asked, like,

what's the most popular and that kind of thing.

And they had somebody there kind of quickly explain

some of the rules. Mark had some idea of how

to play it for anyone who doesn't know. and I'd

be surprised because this is one of the big ones,

but Pandemic came out in 2007. It's from Z -Man

Games. It is the first, I think, of the Matt

Leacock designed games in which it's cooperative.

So there's not, in this one at least, there's

no real player versus player aspect. Everyone's

working together to try to cure the pandemic,

unlike real life. uh it's it blew me away uh

the amount of mechanics and everything else to

it so you can there are different roles everybody

chooses and you sort of come up with a strategy

as the virus spreads and you try to eliminate

it eventually finding a cure and wiping out the

virus and it just yeah we played a game fairly

quickly because in my opinion board games were

still a three hour, or if you're playing risk,

maybe even more than a day, you know, sort of

thing, get together. And yeah, I just, I remember

it really well. And after that, Amina went back

or we would start playing some of the other big

ones. I didn't know Ticket to Ride before then.

I want to say it was kind of next, played Catan

a little bit after and yeah, just kind of went

from there. Yeah, I am all way above you guys

as far as the board game like I stopped playing

board games Right before I graduated high school

in 1999. I don't remember the last board game.

I played in the last 20 years Yeah, there weren't

any good ones before 1999. That's why Funny what

I'm a guy. Oh, I'm sorry. You thought that was

a joke I mean, the only one I would consider

sort of a designer board game, quote unquote

before then is probably Katan. And yeah, Katan

is a formula that has been improved by subsequent

versions of itself significantly. What about

you, Jesse? So so I'm trying to think here. So

the one game that I still own from the 90s, it's

a Milton Bradley game. Which there someone's

looking to bring back is the omega virus would

you consider that one. Yeah. There's a lot of

randomness in that obviously but it's it's also

kind of a unique game I guess I haven't seen

anything similar to that I just got a before

or since. But if we're talking about modern games,

mine is along the same lines as yours, Ryan.

It was a Matt Leacock game. I think it came out

just after Pandemic. It was Forbidden Island.

Forbidden Island, yeah. Which is, I guess, a

simpler version almost of Pandemic. The theme

behind it is quite a bit different, but it uses

the same mechanics. as pandemic, it's also a

little bit simpler in terms of just kind of overall

gameplay. I picked that up just kind of out of

the blue on New Year's Eve 2013. The then X and

I were going to a New Year's party. So we were

like staying in a hotel and we needed to kill

some time before the party kind of started. So

we popped over to the local mall. picked up this

game, just on a whim, looked at it looked interesting.

So we we played it. I think the first game. So

I think it's up to four players, I think is Yeah,

two to four players. I'll take about 30 minutes

and says, so there was two of us playing, it

took probably about the 30 to 40 minutes to play

it a little bit longer the first time because

you got to learn the rules, but Once we played

through the first game, we were hooked, and I

think we played it for the next three hours while

we were waiting for the party to start. So yeah,

so I think that was my first modern, quote unquote,

designer board game. It's a solid game. And I'll

say this, like one thing with the Matt Leacock

ones, they're fairly simple when you get down

to it. Overall, even Pandemic, even Pandemic

Legacy, which is a little more complicated, but

they're great for teaching people all of sort

of the modern mechanics. Like, there's so much

stuff that's used in Forbidden Island, Forbidden

Desert, Pandemic, that are all used in other

games. Yep. And I still remember, so one of the

next games I would end up playing... that's a

lot different, but you can still take a lot from

Pandemic was Betrayal on the House of the Hill.

And. It's a very different board game, but those

same mechanics really kind of serve us. And,

yeah, jeez, there's so many that we've played

since then that are different, but. That, I guess,

is another thing. The mechanics, I find, are

very similar from game to game, but different

enough they feel completely different of the

current crop of designer games. Basically the

ones since 2000 or 95 or 96, I'd say. There were

ones before then that have happened, but they're

all sort of... They've all sort of in reprint

now because nobody played them back then. It

was really. Gosh, it was really sometime in the

2000s around that, like 2005 to 2010 range, probably

with the advent of YouTube and everything else

coming up big that board games or these games

started to take off. Yeah, because like I said

before you had all the the family games or like

you had the sorry's and the troubles and the

this and the that and it was all about having

that's the transition between classic board games

and the modern designer game is that Designers

wanted to create their own games and make their

own rules and do their own things and whether

they were working with a company or not. That's

fine Go ahead and do that and create your own

game. And one of the creator own games that I

will talk about, it's not necessarily a board

game. It's one of the card games. It's called

the long con. This is a card game of conventioning.

This is done by Thomas Zahler who did a, he's

a comic writer and artist. He did a love and

capes and all that entails with that series.

But in his webtoon series called Warning Label,

the female character in that Danielle, she was

creating this board game or this card game about

putting together your own comic convention. And

it's called The Long Con. You can buy it right

now for 26 bucks at Target. It's actually really

fun. I haven't played it, but from what I've

seen and what I've seen other people, it's the

deck building game of conventioneering where

players competing to be the first to build the

best convention. The inspiration for the game

comes from the comic, as I said, warning label.

You know, so, you know, you figure out, you know,

how to put your own convention together for those

of us that can't actually afford to do it in,

you know. So there's definite negatives with

these two which I'll get into before we get into

sort of some of our favorite overall games I

will say this about the designer board games

if you have a negative first experience and I'll

explain some of those The first time you play

some of them, uh, it sucks and you will not want

to go back to them So the two examples I always

use so I mentioned betrayal and house of the

hill I don't like that game and the reason is

that when we first played it mark and i and the

other two people drew what is commonly regarded

apparently as the worst scenario. So when you're

setting up you sort of randomly choose a scenario

and we have to get the worst one. Which was sort

of just a random sort of escape out of the hill

or out of the house. on the hill right and it

sucked it was not all that much fun and so ever

since then i've played it since then and i've

had some good runs but yet just left a bad taste

in my mouth and then the other one is the firefly

board game uh which i hate with the passion of

a thousand fiery suns we took all this time to

set up and it was the first time i was playing

i was playing with a now x And we're playing

with two other people, including the person who

owned the game. Took all this time to set up

everything else. We're trying to play slowly.

I'm on maybe the third turn trying to get the

mechanics and stuff down and memorize how to

move. And there's fuel consumption and blah,

blah, blah. And the guy who owns the game finishes

it and we're done. Like he destroyed everyone

else at the game who he was supposed to be sort

of teaching and all three of us essentially agreed

like, yeah, no, I think we'll skip a second game

and I never played it since then and I have nowhere

to do. That is a great way to completely kill

somebody's enthusiasm or interest in a game to

just completely annihilate the players. Yeah,

I mean the whole the whole point of other than

oh here. This is a new board game I'd like to

have you play with us here read the instructions

other than you reading the instructions on how

to play the game the whole point is to Teach

the person that doesn't know how to play how

to play and not just Destroy them outright because

they don't know how to play it. It's also supposed

to be fun When you don't know the game and somebody

just completely wrecks you at it, it's not a

lot of fun. It's like if you were in an arcade

and you go to play Tekken 3 or something and

you're playing against one of the world champions

and the round lasts four seconds. I will say

that while they can leave a bad taste in your

mouth if they are bad, don't let that dissuade

you from trying other games. So for example,

I'm a big Gears of War fan. So I've got all the

video games. I have a friend group where we would

play the Horde mode and that for like, you know,

hours on end. I haven't done it in quite a while,

but really still love the Horde mode and that.

So I purchased the Gears of War board game thinking,

oh, this would be great, right? Because it's

another cooperative game. And since playing the

Forbidden Island, I kind of seek out the cooperative

type of games, because my wife and I now, we

both enjoy playing board games, and we both like

the cooperative aspect to the genre of game.

So I purchased the Gears of War board game. She

also was one of the people that was in the friend

group that was playing horde mode with us in

Gears of War. We sat down to try to play that.

60 minutes later, OK, between the setup and trying

to read the rules, we hadn't even started the

game. So if you've ever seen that game, it's

got a really thick rule book and it's very hard

to understand. There's multiple card decks in

that game and the card decks, they control the

AI for the enemy that you're fighting. They help

control your movement and things like that. And

it's just, there's a lot to learn, a lot to remember.

And the manual is really hard to refer back to.

So I know rule sets can be off putting, rule

books can be off putting. but don't want to dissuade

you from seeking out other better games that

might be out there. Yeah, there's a few like

that. And I find to one thing that it can help

potentially. It depends on what kind of learner

you are. There's also YouTube videos like let's

play videos or how it's played. If you're starting

out with stuff is a fantastic YouTube channel.

For example, that Gets a lot of love but they

do a really good job or he does a really good

job of explaining or showing off how to play

some of these so yeah, there's Yeah, there's

the complex games and then there's over complex

games Yeah, and then there's the ones we just

at least we used to love I mean, you know I don't

know. I always liked Monopoly because It was

just different than say, I mean, we all grew

up with chess and checkers and part cheesy and

the game of life and how depressing that is now,

uh, you know, clue and candy land and everything

else. And monopoly just to me at the time when

I was a kid in the eighties just felt so different.

I mean, technically candy land is kind of similar,

but it really isn't. I liked them growing up,

but yeah, now I have no urge to kind of go back

to them You know if I'm gonna go back to something

that's in that style for example, so I guess

we'll start listing some of Favorite games if

I have an urge for something in this sort of

monopoly style Ownership that kind of thing tickets

a ride is a more it's a quicker alternative for

example, or Maki Koro is a really good kind of

city builder slash property owning thing that's

different. That's kind of been eclipsed by its

sequel now, but those are examples of that type

of game. If I'm playing in a group, I really

like a lot of the hidden role games. Shadowhunters

was one of the first games I played of the hidden

roles. and it's a lot of fun and it's a quicker

version of something like say Battlestar Galactica

which is fantastic but A takes a long time to

play and B gets people phenomenally angry at

each other which can be a lot of fun but one

of my favorite memories of it was a game that

I wasn't in but I remember like hearing the table

like Couple tables down actually one person just

screaming. I am not a Cylon complete with a bunch

of expletives And apparently they got spaced

anyway, so Wow Because it's one of the mechanics

so hidden -role games are games where there is

somebody actively working against the group Dead

of winter can be like that For example, it's

another popular one So yeah, those are interesting

and That's more so Jesse mentioned like he likes

the co -op games. So do I But every once in a

while I like to play something with an antagonist.

I know You know like I keep going back to monopoly

only because monopoly has basically monopolized

themselves over the years There is every kind

of version of Monopoly that you can think of

if you're a fan of it. I'm sure there's a Friends

Monopoly, there's a Seinfeld Monopoly, there's,

as we mentioned earlier, there's Transformers,

and now there's gonna be Beast Wars Monopoly.

You have to go back to it, because you haven't

played anything new since 1927, you said. Ha

ha ha, funny. Funny guy! Uh, it's one of those

things where just, I'm curious to see, like,

I know what the main game of Monopoly is, and

I'm curious to see how introducing the themes

actually make it different. I mean, do they though?

Not really. I do. I mean, I own a Back to the

Future Monopoly, and it doesn't really change.

I mean, the themes change, but the gameplay is

essentially the same. That version of Monopoly

does include quick play rules, which I think

ends the game in 30 minutes, I think. So that

does change the rule set a little bit. But it

still feels like Monopoly as you're playing it.

Yeah, Transformers Monopoly was just, most of

them are just, frankly, kind of cheap. Changed

the names and the graphics and we're done here.

Sort of in fact if you want to play a good version

of Monopoly play Monopoly deal Which is a card

game and you can end it in like 10 50 minutes.

I think yeah Or play monkey Coro one or two or

And what I'm getting out of all of this is what

the hell is the point of board games if you don't

want to spend time with people playing the game

Yeah, but you can also get in three really good

games in the same time that'll take you to play

one. Okay. Game of true monopoly or whatever.

Like risk is a really good. Yeah. And fun game.

I like risk. Don't get me wrong, but it's a hell

of a lot more work to try to dedicate four hours

a day or two days or whatever. True to you playing

a game than it is to get a group of people together

to play a game for an hour And that's the other

thing is frankly Do you want to dedicate that

much time to it and a lot of the games I enjoy

are Shorter games I inch I still so some of my

other favorite games. I really like stuff like

zombicide or nemesis and those are both Longer

games that take longer to set up and everything

else not to mention they involve miniatures.

Etc etc but. There's either fun games be they

have a relatively quick click finite ending.

And it's still pretty easy to get together with

a group of people to play them. And then you've

got stuff like the legacy games like pandemic

for example i mentioned. Was one of the first

I remember that came out with a legacy game and

They're fun, but it's a pain in the ass to try

to get people together Week after week to play

a game. The other issue I have with them is replay

abilities somewhat limited because on some of

them you literally have to destroy portions of

the game and I don't know if it's all of my video

game playing a lot, but I'm Just not a big fan

of that. I like being able to replay my stuff.

I think it's cool to get a sort of really neat

kind of singular experience, but. I don't know

if I pay 50 bucks for board game or something

like that. I kind of want to be able to get more

than one use out of it. Or what if I have more

than one group of friends that wants to play

it? Mm hmm. Yeah, so I guess regarding the legacy

game, so I've got this on a really talking about

our favorites now, or we just. Yeah, just shooting

the shit here. Okay. So Mike's gonna bring up

how whatever legacy game you played relates to

Monopoly. Exactly. Monopoly legacy. Um, yeah,

so regarding regarding the legacy game, so that

I've also got all three seasons of pandemic legacy.

The first one I played, I took it to work, and

we were playing over lunch. There was a whole

group of us in a previous position, a previous

job. I took it to work and there was a whole

group of us that were interested in playing board

games. So we would typically play it over lunch.

So I had relatively the same group of people.

It was four to five people that were playing

at the same time for pandemic. So we burnt through

season one. pretty well. And while I would agree

with you that I don't necessarily like destroying

the things that I purchase, I look at it as though,

right, if I'm going to go to a movie, for example,

and the movie's like, I don't know what it is,

what it costs for you to go. It's probably about

10, 12 bucks for me to go to like a matinee now,

right? And that's like two hours maybe. Each

playthrough of this game is roughly an hour,

right? And with pandemic, it's going over the

course of like a year. So a year being 12 12

months, and you may play it anywhere from 12

to 24 times, depending on whether you succeed

the first time in the month or not. If you don't

succeed the first time, you've got to replay

that. If you fail a second time, you just move

on to the next month. So it's anywhere between

12 to 24 playthroughs. But I look at that as

it was about an hour long for us to play it.

So anywhere from 12 to 24 hours. So 50 to $75,

depending on where you purchase these games or

how long they've been out. I can kind of justify

that, at least personally. But that very first

time you rip up a component or a piece, it's

like, oh man, what am I doing here? Yeah, I think,

so Pandemic Legacy A, you described pretty much

kind of the best, I would say, scenario to play

it in, right? Like a dedicated group that, in

theory, you're presumably at work anyway, I would

hope. unless you've got other problems going

on in your workplace. But there's that. And then

in terms of the replayability, I think like a

pandemic legacy is one of the better ones. God,

now I can't remember the name of it. If it's

code breakers or there's one of them that is

literally just a you can only ever play through

it once and the replayability is tied to only

the back end of the game. which is kind of less

interesting than the front end of it. What I

will say about the first season of Pandemic Legacy

is that it kind of builds off from the original

Pandemic. So the very first game of Pandemic

Legacy, it's essentially regular Pandemic. So

if you're a fan of Pandemic, I would highly recommend

playing season one. Season two, I picked up my

wife and I played through it. So that was only

two people. I think we were playing, we were

each playing two characters at a time. So technically

four player but again, it was just two of us

We like that game. Okay, I didn't like it as

much as the first one and then we picked up the

the prequel that came out which is called season

zero We haven't even gotten halfway through that

game and I actually have no desire to finish

it I'm not a fan of the story that's going on.

I'm not a fan of the game mechanics that are

in there It's just not an overall fun game to

play Ouch yeah that's one of the downsides of

it too is with those you can't just kind of sell

them so i've had board games that i just i didn't

enjoy it and i've ended up just selling it after

a playthrough or two and yeah that's one of the

other things you can't just you know give it

to friends or something like that. Right. But

I love Pandemic so much that, right, so I've

got the original, I've got all the legacy games,

I've got some of the expansions for the original,

which, you know, introduce new game mechanics,

new characters, new goals to the mission that

you're on. There's different variations of that.

So like I've also got pandemic to cure. So this

is how much I like pandemic. I've got pandemic

to cure, which is like a dice version of the

game. It was a little bit interesting and it's

totally different than the others. But it's got

the same theme. It plays a little bit faster.

There is some luck involved there because you're

rolling dice now. I've got Pandemic Iberia, which

is kind of a rethemed version of Pandemic. So

I don't actually remember what you're doing in

Iberia, but you're not trying to cure diseases

in that particular one. But there's also Pandemic

Cthulhu, Pandemic, is it Fall of Rome? Pandemic

Years of War. I wish I would. Not yet. And then

there's also some offshoot ones where you can

actually be the virus. I forget the name of that

one, Contagion, Pandemic Contagion. So I've got

that one. That one's completely different gameplay,

not at all developed by Matt Leacock. Just uses

the same theme. And then they've got some mini

ones that are out. So there's Pandemic Hot Zones

North America, Pandemic Hot Zones Europe. Same

exact gameplay as regular Pandemic, but it's

on a much smaller board. There's less diseases

you're curing. There are a little bit I guess

different gameplay mechanics. You can introduce

some different things using some cards in there,

but essentially it's the main pandemic rules.

So I've got quite a few versions of pandemic.

Those I haven't played. So the last ones you

listed with the miniatures and they're like,

I'll have to try that sometime. Cause yeah, I've

always liked the games. I like the mechanics.

I mentioned that before. I think Matt Leacock's

a really good designer overall. I've played everything

from his firefighter. Game which now of course

i can't remember the name of kind of getting

old this was so much easier you know any who.

But yeah i like it quite a bit and yeah i mentioned

you know panda always have a soft spot for pandemic

is kind of what got me into it. And even when

i play stuff that's completely different or.

much later on. Like, I'm playing Gloomhaven or

stuff like that. I still feel like there's stuff

I learned from Pandemic that, you know, just

from it being my first of those type of games,

I guess. It seems like if you're going to introduce

a new set of people to the idea of designer board

games, that's sort of the go -to. Yeah, it's

one of the best, I think. It seems like it's

easy to kind of jump in. The rules aren't too

complicated to teach someone. And it kind of

gives them a good idea of kind of what a cooperative

board game is like. Yeah. I guess looking at

looking at other things on my list here. So I've

got Carcassonne. So that's a PVP. My wife really

likes playing or really likes putting together

puzzles. So she often kicks my ass in this game.

But Carcassonne is essentially you draw tiles,

you lay tiles down, you're trying to complete

certain things. So you can complete a castle,

you can complete roads, you can complete fields,

things like that. In doing so, you're putting

down these meeples that you have. So meeples

are like little wooden characters or pawns. Scoring

points, and the more points you score, obviously,

whoever scores the most would win the game. But

you've got to draw these pieces, figure out where

to place them on the board that you're creating,

right? So the board's always constantly changing,

different between every single game. But yeah,

my wife usually wins in that one. It's another

one, by the way, Carcassone's another one that's

pretty important for other games too, because

you mentioned having the meeples and that kind

of thing. Worker placement for a long time, which

is kind of a basis of meeples and those type

of games was huge. I mean, there have been so

many since then, like the worker placement sort

of genre and carcassone in a lot of ways, even

though it's not really a worker placement, kind

of set the stage for them. It's similar mechanics.

Right. Well, yeah, it was sort of in that you

place your pawn there, your meeple, and you don't

really get it back until you complete the thing

you're trying to complete. So you're not actually

getting a resource in that case. But yeah. And

there's so many expansions to that. I think I've

got like five or six of them, and there's numerous

expansions to it. Another one of my favorites,

which is a worker placement, is Lords of Waterdeep.

So I'm not a Dungeons and Dragons player at all,

but I like the idea behind that. I like the theme

behind that. And if you're kind of in the same

boat as me, I would highly recommend Lords of

Waterdeep. I love it, yeah. When I mentioned

worker placement, it's the one I went to in my

head immediately. And I know there have been

a bunch since then, but yeah, I love it. My wife

usually beats me in that game too. I don't think

I've won a game of it in my different groups,

but I still have a lot of fun with it. It's one

of those that I don't care that apparently I

suck at it. Yeah, I mean, the gameplay is so

simple, right? So you have a certain number of

meeples you can play. You go through numerous

rounds. You're putting your meeples out there

just to gain resources. You're gaining resources

to complete different quests. That simply means

you're collecting enough resources in order to

kind of pay it back into the quote unquote bank

to complete the cards that you've got in your

hand. To gain points and so it's very simple

in terms of gameplay and mechanic But I just

kind of like the the idea around it the the theme

behind it and everything Yeah, it just works

and you mentioned, you know the D &D theme you

don't even need any sort of Backstory or anything

like you don't need to know Dungeons and Dragons

or any of this sort of similar things You just

sit down and play it and have a good time with

it Now also there is an expansion for that as

well called scoundrels of Skullport, which I

do own But I find that when I do play this game,

I'm not I'm not at all really playing with the

expansion at all I just kind of stick with the

the main game Very cool. Very cool. Meanwhile,

I'm stuck in the 80s playing Knight Rider. Oh,

I thought you're gonna say I Fooled you didn't

I the last game I have on the list here. Sorry

Talk about this last game last game. I got my

list which is I think what prompted The discussion

of having a podcast around this is the adventures

of Robin Hood, which is a cooperative board game.

Yes Really it couldn't be what's wrong to read

a description of this really quick here, so it

says In England in 1193, so I'm reading this

from, this is shutupandsitdown .com, but I think

it's just the description for the game from the

publisher. It says, the county of Nottingham,

sorry, Nottingham Shires suffers under the yoke

of evil Prince John and his henchmen. Can Robin

Hood and his companions escape the sheriff's

guard and complete their adventures successfully?

Since it's in the adventure of Robin Hood, players

take on the role of Robin Hood and his companions

with the action taking place on a living board

game with no set paths. The board changes over

the course of each adventure and the movement

of the characters is handled via an innovative

mechanism that uses different length of wooden

character pieces. Various actions and secrets

are integrated into the game's levels and are

revealed only in the course of the story. The

game board quote -unquote remembers when players

have already explored or found, and thanks to

the special materials, the entire game can be

set up and dismantled quickly. Instead of using

cards as the author's legends of Andor, the game

tells the story of Robin Hood in a high -quality

hardcover book, and depending on the decisions

the players make, the story changes. So there

is a branching mechanism within this game. So

my wife and I have played through this, and there

are one, two, three, four, five, six. There are

seven total campaigns that you play, but there

are two of them we haven't played because we

didn't take that branch within the game. So there

is definitely replayability here. The game itself

is kind of unlike anything I've played in other

board games. So it was definitely a surprise

to my wife and I. Again, it was something we

just kind of bought on a whim at a local comic

shop. I hadn't seen it anywhere else before.

I just came across it was looking for cooperative

games because that's what we like playing and

picked it up and absolutely fell in love with

it. Once you kind of finish the game, obviously

you can go back through it and choose the other

path if you want. But there are also additional

rules in here. Like if you're playing it beyond

the first time, so it does increase some of the

difficulty, I guess. We haven't played through

it for a second time yet, but I know there is

rules in here to kind of change it up a little

bit as you play through it for a second time.

So Ryan, you said you played it. I guess, what

are your thoughts on it? I like it a lot. It's

another good sort of good co -op game with a

bunch of different, it's not very old, by the

way. When did you first start playing it? Just

out of curiosity. Maybe we first started playing

it? Yeah, so we saw it, it was earlier this year.

Yeah, okay. Because yeah, it only came out last

year. So yeah, yep. It's yeah, no, it's a really

good co op game. It's not super tough to set

up. So the game that it reminds me of and I'll

just mention that it reminds me a fair amount

of Robinson Crusoe if you've ever played it.

Okay, no. All right. Same sort of idea. It's

a co op sort of game that changes as you play

it. uh the difference here is robinson caruso

takes probably about i want to say twice the

time it's kind of gloom haven ask like in terms

of how long it takes to set up and play and everything

else there's a whole ton of pieces it was one

of the first games i can remember somebody made

it like an alternate box to hold all the stuff

robin hood is a lot easier to kind of pick up

and play mechanics mechanics are really good

it's another one of those games that i said it

earlier it's really deep there's a ton of different

things you can do and you can decide to do in

it and there and yet it's still so simple like

anybody can play it and i really like the inclusion

of the storybook and stories like there's so

few games that do that yeah what i also liked

was so You would think this would have some complicated

rule book, but you can actually not read any

rules and just kind of jump right in and start

playing. And that's what the game actually encourages

you to do for that first campaign, which was

kind of surprising. And I'm like, I don't know

what the hell we're supposed to do. How are we

going to do this? And it just walks you through

it, and it's pretty simple. And it's a huge board,

but it's pretty simple to figure out, even though

you want a good sized table for it. Yeah, so

I've actually sprawled it out on the floor here

and I measured it right before we hopped on here.

So it's just over three feet wide and just under

two foot tall in terms of game board. Wowzers.

Yeah, it's large and you put it together like

almost like a puzzle, but you know, not an actual

puzzle obviously. But it's a neat idea and it's

a good way to store it and everything. No, but

because I do love this game and there is replayability

to it the one thing I was Not really a fan of

when it comes to the board itself is at least

on mine I think this might be an issue that they

fixed or addressed in in a current run of the

game is That so you've got to peel up certain

pieces of the board and in doing so at least

on mine It starts to peel up the the actual coating

on the pieces. You're pulling up So it's actually

damaging the cardboard. Oh damn So at some point

right depending on you know, the number of times

you've played this I could easily see where pieces

are ruined But like I said, I think they've addressed

that at least based on what I've read I'm like

board game geek that they may have addressed

that on current prints of the game Yeah, so that's

one thing I play I guess Sort of transition into

some of mine. I play a lot of games with cards

and stuff and a lot of the All of the board games

we listed have like small cards and that kind

of thing And so yeah, I tend to sleeve them now

I used to not but if you start playing something

a lot, holy cow do they get worn fast? I Mean

part of it's the quality of the cards. They're

actually pretty good quality. Yeah, and you know,

they're well sort of paint it or colored on etc

etc so it doesn't take long to wear them out

with your big fat grubby hands if you're me but

yeah i mean some of my favorites so i'm going

to avoid you know terraforming bars and scythe

and some of the big ones there's one big one

i'll mention but some of my favorites uh merchants

and marauders comes to mind so merchants and

marauders is a z -man games game uh two to four

players and you kind of play it really however

you want the negative side of it is it's a three

-hour game but you can be whatever you want you

can be a pirate you can be a merchant you can

just kind of explore whatever you're just trying

to get quote unquote glory points um through

like doing missions completing rumors just getting

gold uh pulling off trades, and you can upgrade

your ship. There's different captains you play

as. I really like it. It's a lot of fun. It's

very sort of different, with the exception of

something like Seafall, which came later, which

is kind of the same idea. But I always liked

Merchants and Marauders a little more. Let's

have the expansion for it. Can I ask a question

before you go to your next one? Yes. So we've

got a three -year -old so we don't typically

have time to play a three -hour game unless it's

late in the evening and then I'm like so And

I really like the idea well, I really like pirate

themed things in general so movies games things

like that I have played a pirate themed game

before I don't remember the name of it. It was

like an auction type game But that aside there

any other pirate games you can recommend that

are maybe shorter in time that aren't three hours

long Oh, God. No, because the problem is, no,

I mean, to be honest, like, you know, I mentioned

Seafall. Seafall is still a two to possibly three

hour game, depending on how many people are playing

and miniatures. Somebody else, if there's anybody

that listens to this, can probably think of one.

But yeah, I haven't played one. I'm sure they

exist, you know, but. Yeah, this one has miniatures

and that kind of thing. So that's one of the

reasons it takes a little bit to set up The board

is also fairly large You've got an actual like

chess to use to store gold that kind of thing

So you've got a picture pulled up on board game

geek and it looks pretty intricate. It is. Yeah,

it's a fun game. But yeah, it's one You need

you need time I'm gonna go back so another game

I like and believe it or not. It's not just because

of the theme of it Deep down. I like katan, but

it's super duper flawed The randomness I think

turns a lot of people off of it because there's

entire turns you can spend three or four turns

doing nothing because your dice don't come up

of One of the things or areas you own So I play

a fair amount of the Star Trek Catan and the

reason I like it is it adds identity slash ability

cards. So even if you don't roll whatever one

of your places is that you need for the resources,

you can still do things on your turn and still

actually get things done. Plus it speeds up the

game immensely. I find it's just a huge. Huge

huge huge improvement of the base game because

the base game takes too damn long Is that a little

lame is that the case with with just that version

of katana or is that also with other? Variations

that are also kind of standalone. I think there's

other variations of it that have cards or identities

with them, too It's just trek was one of the

first ones and after I bought it I don't really

feel the need to get the other ones because honestly

like our games last so much shorter i mean it

went from like a god i remember some of these

games of katan can last forever it went from

like a two hour game a lot of times or one and

a half hours or so to easily under 60 minutes

And what's nice is to there's actually an expansion

which gives you a set board And you flip it over

and there's a different set board. So it even

limits the setup time to basically nothing So

yeah big fan of that The setup time by the way,

one of the biggest sort of things that keeps

me from playing Some of these games like some

of them I really like but it's just a pain in

the ass to set them up and play them and everything

else anyway Video games are much easier Yeah,

I mean it's one of the things I like one of the

reasons I like the current crop though Getting

into some of the card games. I know one of the

things I Mentioned I'd try to avoid popular ones,

but I will mention flux Which is a good sort

of party game good like kind of warm -up game

There's so many different versions of it you

can play there's probably a Gears of War flux

you look that up I've looked there isn't well,

I do want to raise there wouldn't I'm surprised

there isn't a back -to -the -future flux You

know just go back to talking about monopoly funny

funny funny funny Anyway, all right. I mean the

last one I'll mention quickly You knew I was

going to bring it up at some point. Marvel Champions,

which is a co -op card based game. It is huge.

It's licensed, which is usually a shot against

it, but it's well designed. It's by Fantasy Flight

Games. It's co -op. You can play solo as well,

though. It's really meant for one to four players,

although it shines best with two to three, but

single player solo is still quite easy to play.

i don't know i find it a lot of fun uh there

are marvel heroes in it that i'm not a big fan

of that i play a fair amount because they're

actually fun to play there's a lot of them that

play completely different from each other you

have different aspects uh you can just play with

the decks the game gives you when you buy them

or you can set up your own desk decks There's

a really good website that compiles people's

decks they've done and I like to kind of build

based on that and sometimes swap a card or two

out. But yeah, it's a really good one and it's

fantastic if you're a fan of Marvel. It plays

fairly quickly, especially once you get the rules

down or watch some let's plays or something like

that. And yeah, that's kind of the last one I

wanted to mention. So you can buy booster packs

for that then? So you buy them hero packs and

you get a pre -built deck for that hero based

in one of the aspects So you have your hero and

your hero has 15 cards that let them do things

related to themselves So for Captain America,

one of his cards is his shield one of his other

cards lets him throw his shield and hit multiple

enemies It's stuff like that. And then you have

aspect cards, which you choose And the aspects

are aggression, which is pretty obvious. Justice,

which involves sort of thwarting the villain's

schemes versus just attacking him outright. And

then there's protection, which involves protecting

the other members of your group. And then the

last one there is leadership, which is you can

throw out allies who are other Marvel. heroes

and you toss them out and usually you just make

them get killed for you. You toss them out. I

think I've asked you this on Twitter, but how

does this compare? I don't remember what your

answer was. How does this compare or contrast

to like Sentinels of the Multiverse? So I have

Sentinels of the Multiverse and I'm a big fan

of that. Sentinels is... A little bit more simple

I would say so with sentinels of the multiverse

really good hero based game same sort of idea

team up against the villain. With it you get

an action and. A power per turn essentially so

you play a card and then you can do an action

or use a power or whatever champions lets you

pro in theory do more in a turn you have different

cards. Your resource to pay for those cards is

other cards. It's printed on them. So in theory

You can do more in a turn and you have more choice

in terms of what you do That's the big difference.

I would say It plays a little bit quicker. I'd

say Okay, but I really like sentinels Very cool.

Very cool. Anything else we want to say about

board games gentlemen? I mean, there's a whole

other topic that we could discuss, but it's going

to go more than a lot of time. You're supposed

to go off your lunch. That's why I was hurrying

up. Yeah, I was like, wait a second. Yeah. So

this can be part one in a new series of board

game. Jesse has to go play his pandemic legacy

game with his coworkers at work instead of working

just in case his bosses are listening. I thought

that's why everybody's working from home now.

Oh, wait, sorry. That's too real world. All right.

Oh boy. Next time around we've got episode 300

coming up. I don't know what we're doing with

that. No clue I know Steve's gonna be on it,

but I'm not sure what we're doing We're gonna

take a quick ad break because that's how we Sadly

have to pay for things around here and we'll

be back after this because the world needs another

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Radio. This is episode 299. That's going to do

it for us. Ryan is not on social media, so I

will not be. Turning the microphone over to him

while I go through the out. I mean to be fair

You shouldn't have turned the microphone over

to me in the first place That's true I was surprised

whenever he sort of did the comeback right now

and he goes like, you know, we're episode 299

I thought he was just redoing the intro again.

I figured I figured for the third time He was

somehow unhappy with it because he didn't insult

me enough or something. Oh, please Whatever.

Anyway. Thank you for listening to us here on

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I am at TF2 and Mike Jesse if you would like.

What is your Twitter? I only have to provide

Twitter. I can provide anything else. I don't

know what else you have. I still have a YouTube

channel. Okay, well, there you go. You can find

me on Twitter. I'm at, so this is my real name,

Jesse Early, Early with a E -Y. You can find

me on YouTube at YouTube .com slash Matrix Prime.

No underscore there. I put out random shit. No

longer just Transformers stuff. Although, I've

got my Transformers Lego Optimus Prime sitting

next to me that I was going to do a review on,

so that will still be coming at some point. Yeah,

I still haven't put mine together. He's still

also beside me here. So it's so good. Cool. Very

cool. If you're interested in the review, once

I do push it out, I recorded the entire process

of putting it together in time lapse, and that

will be in the reviews. Very cool. Snicked. Well,

it is Canada Day. Happy Canada Day, everybody.

For now, I am TF2 and Mike with... I'm Ryan.

And I'm Jesse. Thank you for listening. Until

next time, if I make it to next time, wow.