Michael Bailey on Superman, DC Comics, and Comic Origins

It's been five years of the Keycast Radio Network

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banner. So until next time, Unleash the Geek

in You. Welcome to The Pole Bag's Origins episodes.

Join TFG1 Mike as he grills this week's guest

on just how they cut into reading comics and

more. So sit back, relax, and enjoy The Pole

Bag. An orphanage fire in London and a damn broke

in India. Did you miss something for dinner?

Oh, my gosh! What happened? Lex Luthor. The rat.

Where's Lois? She was here just a second ago.

Probably scared witless, poor thing. Don't worry.

I'll have you out of that thing in no time. Okay,

let's see now. Do I disconnect the black wire

or the white one? Don't worry, I'll save you.

What do you think? Oh, no. What do I thin? Lois,

I thin you got some splaining to do. Tuckie,

if we're going to be partners and we're going

to be married, I want to be part of the act.

Lois, there are thins I do. You can do. Me superman.

Me super wife. Us super in trouble. Could you

hold this argument to later and get us out of

here? I knew this was gonna happen. First you

know who I am. They're gonna fire me. Next they're

gonna fire someone. Hello and welcome to The

Polebag. This is the GeekCast Radio Network's

comic book review and discussion podcast. I am

your host, TFJoneMike, and we're doing yet again

another Origins episode here in the month of

April. The Origins episodes, for those that don't

know, are me getting together with people I know

online, not necessarily like super close friends,

but anyone I know that's... Into comics or reading

comics and the guest this time around Let's just

say he has a very healthy obsession with kryptonite

Or maybe a very unhealthy obsession with kryptonite

depending on your your view from the long box

Oh Lord forever evil So yeah, this is basically,

I walk them through their comic origins, how

they got into comics, who got them into comics,

if they've ever stepped away from comics for

whatever reason or another, and what they are

currently reading today. And my guest this time

around is Michael Bailey from the Fortress of

Bailey -tude. Hey, thanks for having me on. Awesome,

awesome. Now I do have to give a little bit of

backstory. The first time I... found out about

you was on better in the dark with the superman

spotlight they did because in part of that two

-part spotlight you guys covered lois and clark

the new adventures of superman that podcast made

me go back and watch all four seasons within

within 30 days to see to see if it was as bad

as you guys were saying it was because i like

Superman, for me, he's... I grew up with Christopher

Reeve. Everybody did. For me, and I'm not saying

they're good movies, they're not, but for me,

because at the time of I was born in 80, so when

Superman 3 and 4 came out, that was like, ooh

yay, Superman! I still saw the first and second

film when I was a kid. Just, I don't think I

was in that prime at the time to... Really enjoy

those and I Mean come on. It's it's Lex Luthor

as as nuclear man. How can you not like Gene

Hackman voicing nuclear man? No, I'm the one

that did a commentary for it. So I'll have to

listen to that. Yeah, me and Scott Gardner spend

about uh, you know about two hours defending

the film So oh really? Okay, so you're on the

side of good then But yeah, no, I you know I

I had heard the conversation on better in the

dark and I grew up like I said with Christopher

Reeve and I came in late to Superman the animated

series But I also grew up with Lois and Clark

and I thought going from Christopher Reeve to

having Dean Kane on the small screen That was

brilliant. It was awesome. It was a it was a

comedy pretty much for i mean sure it's an action

show but it's it's essentially a comedy uh...

for the most part uh... and i absolutely loved

it yes there are bad episodes of that show but

it's not like well my god that shows a complete

train wrecked well you know it started out very

strong and the second season you know things

slowly started getting off the rails i think

by the time you get to the third season where

you have uh... you know cloning frogs And then

the fourth season where I really just didn't

enjoy many of the episodes. Man, that better

in the dark thing was like four years ago. I

know, right? I know. Yeah, you know, it was just

one of those things where the fourth season...

What I liked about the fourth season, and I know

this is technically not comics and it's not your

origin right now, but what I liked about the

fourth season was... They actually did something

with them like instead of will they won't they

will they won't they're you know How how many

episodes can she just stare at him in his glasses

and not realize come on? Terry Hatcher smack

you upside the head for Christ's sake figure

it out But yeah, no I I do admit there are a

number of bad episodes of that show but overall

it is not a bad Show yeah, I haven't done a good

solid rewatch in a while so going through some

Weird kind of reprogramming well not like somebody

kidnapped me threw me in the back of a van and

reprogrammed me to you know like certain things

I used to not like because that would be That'd

be really creepy actually very brainiac All right,

so Was there a person when you were a child your

mom your dad an uncle a grandfather a Sibling

or a friend or was there someone that said here

Michael. Here's this comic about this alien Go

leave go read it and leave us alone. How did

you who got you into reading comics? I Know what

really that's that's the weird thing. I don't

I don't have the you know, they kind of mr. Miyagi

Story where you know somebody you know my good

friend I mentioned before Scott Gardner Who I

co -host a show called tales of the Justice Society

of America with you know has like the wise old

man's story I don't I before I was into comics.

I was into superheroes. I was about four years

older than you and hit that sweet spot of being

born right around the time that Superman the

movie came out and the Adam West TV show was

in constant syndication and the Super Friends,

the various permutations of that show were going

on. And you also had the Incredible Hulk television

series. So I loved superheroes, but I wasn't

a big reader as a kid. When I was in grade school,

the library had these two books, Superman from

the 30s to the 70s and Batman from the 30s to

the 70s. And they were published around 1971.

And they're, for lack of a better term, they're

trade paperbacks at a time where there really

weren't trade paperbacks. Collections of comics

were very rare back in the early 70s. So those

were the first comics I read. I had a friend

when my family lived in this one area who liked

comics, but all he read was Transformers. So

I would pick up comics, but nobody actually put

them in my hands and said, you have to read this.

It was just something I kind of found on my own

as an extension of the superheroes. And then

in 87, I started picking up the Superman titles

full time and have pretty much Except for a short

sabbatical, you know bought the books since that

time period Hmm interesting Yeah, I I've been

meaning to go back and this is more of a Actual

book than it is a comic, but I've been meaning

to go back and track down that old film novelization

of Superman 4 because I could have sworn the

book added stuff that the movie didn't have.

Well, they cut out 34 minutes of the film, so...

Oh, did they? Yeah, there was an entire other

nuclear man that was created at the beginning

of the film. There's a whole... The whole ending

of the film is different. They severely cut that

up because, frankly, in watching the deleted

scenes, they're not all that good. So, but yeah,

there was this whole other kind of, uh, mulleted,

uh, nuclear man that Superman fights outside

of a, um, outside of a discotheque. Uh, it was

actually, that as an action scene wasn't all

that bad, it's just everything leading up to

it was, uh, was pretty terrible. Uh, um, all

right, so you started with superheroes, you then

transitioned, you know, into reading comics.

Uh, as a kid, who were you, outside of Superman?

Who are you reading? Or was it just him? Well,

the deep dark secret is I started out as a Batman

fan. I was a fan of the Adam West series since

I can't even remember a time where I wasn't.

And when it came to actually getting into comics,

I started with Superman. I would pick up like

the occasional issue of Batman. here and there

until about 1989 when the movie came out and

everybody was buying Batman. Really what got

me into the deeper DC universe was Who's Who

Update 87, which was coming out right around

the time that I started picking the... picking

up the superman books it was on the spinner rack

because this is before uh... i really even was

familiar with what a comic shop was you know

i had this the treksler town mall had like five

or six spinner racks and i would just go from

spinner rack to spinner rack trying to find something

to read and who's who uh... update eighty seven

you know just showed me that there is this huge

world of characters out there there's all these

stories and from there while I kept, you know,

buying the Superman books pretty consistently,

I would pick up anything that looked interesting.

So, you know, if there was a book out in the

late 80s called Star Man, a character named Will

Payton, I picked up a few issues of that and

really enjoyed it. So, it really wasn't until

I got out of high school that I started cracking

out on comics and buying, you know... Pretty

much the bulk of the Batman titles and flash

and Green Lantern and stuff like that the But

before that it was like whenever there was a

movie or a television show Like you know when

the Batman movies came out I was picking up Batman

when the flash television series came out I was

reading flash and picking up back issues. So

I was I was really kind of scattershot for a

lot of years Who's your favorite Green Lantern

and why? I will always say Kyle Rayner because

thank God it's not Jesus Jordan Well, I have

nothing against how it's just I was a senior

in high school and I was there was after school

one day I went over to the comic shop and Green

Lantern 50 and 51 were both on the Shelf and

I picked them up. So I stuck with Kyle pretty

much through his entire series So to me while

I like how I like John even like I Gardner My

favorite alien Green Lantern is Chip, just because

there is just something awesome about a squirrel

with a Green Lantern ring. Especially with what

they did with him and made him a Disney character.

Not kidding! They called him Chip. He had the

little Mickey Mouse gloves. He had little overalls.

And his best friend on his home planet was Dale.

And it was just this it was just and there were

like even his enemy had this obscure Disney connection

so But no Kyle Kyle Kyle was the guy no one should

have liked He was the artist guy that came in

and dated all the hot women We mean we should

have hated him and yet we all liked him. It was

very bizarre I think the reason why most people

liked him is because all of us geeks wanted to

be him There's a certain amount of that. I mean

everyone, you know, he was the artist he wore

leather jackets and rode motorcycles and stuff

like that He dated Donna Troy and then he dated

Jade. I mean, yeah He I can see why certain people

hated him actually Alright the other tough question

not the big tough question because I pretty much

know what the answer to that is I think Unless

there's another deep dark secret in your past.

Um, the other tough question is Barry or Wally

Wally only because he was the flash that I got

to know Coming up in 94 Right around the time

of zero hour. And as I said right around the

time I was getting out of high school I started

I just with money I didn't have I dove, you know

feet first into the DC universe and I started

picking up Green Lantern a little bit before

that, but then I started picking up flash And

I really liked Wally's progression as a character,

and I got to see that as it happened. So, you

know, he was, you know, if I had been born 15

years earlier, or even 10 years earlier, I would

probably say Barry, because there are certain

runs of Barry's title that I like quite a bit,

but I'm a Wally guy. See, I have nothing against

Barry. I can't stand the characterization for

Guy Gardner. He's too arrogant for me. Like,

he's over -the -top arrogant. So he's probably

the only human Green Lantern I really don't care

for. And with Wally, I'm right there with you,

but mine came in with the Justice League cartoon.

I mean, and the fact that at the time... Come

on Michael Rosenbaum was Lex Luthor and Wally

West all in the same breath. I mean come on that

was awesome You mentioned chip and all as I can

think of now because of a certain Other companies

movie coming out. I'm like, I want to see chip

versus rocket. Yeah That'd be great. You know,

you got a guy with a green lantern ring and you

know against a raccoon with a machine gun Who's

gonna hate that? Alright time for the age -old

question DC or Marvel or maybe some other publisher

DC simply because you know that's where I really

got into Reading comics, I mean there are a lot

of Marvel characters. I like I'm a big fan of

Captain America I you know going from back when

I was a kid. I loved the Hulk. I like spider

-man I've really liked the movies that have come

out, you know, starting with, well, starting

all the way back with Blade back in 98. I've

been impressed with, you know, the ability for

these movies to come out, these characters that

a lot of people really weren't really familiar

with outside of comic book fans like Iron Man

getting to be like huge major stars and there's

Halloween costumes and candy and, you know, plethora

of action figures. So, Marvel just doesn't have

my heart. DC does. DC, to me, has such a great

and rich history, the new 52 notwithstanding,

you know, they delved into war comics and western

comics and horror comics and Marvel did as well,

but Marvel's, you know, other genres outside

of maybe their science fiction books. Because

that's where we get characters like, you know,

Adam Warlock and Thanos and all that You know,

they just seem kind of bland whereas DC managed

to create enduring characters As I'm reminded

every month when I listen to the who's who podcast

over at the fire and water network Interesting

Okay, so here's my thing with comics and I've

said this many times on this show before but

just for your own benefit I never wanted to really

get into them because I'm always of and I know

better now But I don't have to do this that I

can start at a certain arc and it doesn't matter

what number the damn issue is but Comics for

me I was like Batman 676 you mean I have to read

the previous 675 issues to catch up no And you

know so when the new fit, you know I wasn't on

the on the cusp of the new 52 age But I've slowly

gotten there and there are certain characters.

I enjoy in the new 52 I believe that the Batman

stuff is slowly becoming monotonous because hey

let's let's do a zero issue pretty much into

the for you know not even at the beginning and

after the first year's anniversary and then when

paid for the second year anniversary or whatever

let's let's actually tell a twelve -part story

telling you how he beacon of god zero year is

just dragging on me well this uh... so what is

your what is your issue with the new fifty two

uh... You know, it's funny. I was I was looking

at the at the news today You know and I can say

actually news because you know, it was in the

USA today the you know with with what's happening

with Dick Grayson and it just once again reaffirmed

to me that My DC universe and a lot of people

say that and they and there's there's a certain

proprietary like, you know My DC universe as

in the right version of the DC universe And I

don't really I don't play that way anymore. I

walked away from Superman back in 2000 10 like

towards the end of the year because I was just

wasn't enjoying the books anymore. They were

taking into directions I wasn't familiar with

and as I was away for about 10 months and in

that 10 months I realized that one it was getting

angry over fictional characters and there were

other things in life to really get upset about

but also that basically my time my my take on

these characters and what I like about it is

over. And there's nothing really wrong with that,

because that's what happened in 1986 when John

Byrne revamped Superman. There were a bunch of

people to this day that are still, that are mad

about, you know, the re-, you know, after the

crisis and the revamp and the killing of Supergirl

and all that. And once I realized that, that

it's a generational thing, I was able to kind

of just accept it. So when the new 52 came along,

it was kind of ironic because it was just as

I was getting back into D .C. and I was picking

up the Superman books and reading some other

titles and such. And, you know, because I went

really from buying every Justice League character's

title to just buying Superman and a couple other

like. Random books here and there so it was a

it was like going from like deep within to just

the fringes And so when the new 52 came along,

I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give this a shot because

you know, why not? You know, it's it's it's not

really anything that They're not doing it to

piss me off Yeah as some people will seem to

think so my problem with the new 52 isn't really

A problem is just that I'm just not emotionally

invested in these characters anymore. You know,

there are certain titles that I like. I'm behind

on a bunch of them. But you know, Earth 2 came

out and I just absolutely loved that book. World's

Finest came out and I was really digging that

book. The Superman titles have been a struggle

because there's no clear direction, whereas over

in Batman... You have Scott Snyder who, yeah,

the zero year thing is going on and on. I don't

know if that's so much him as editorial telling

him to kind of stretch it out because it's making

them money. But, you know, and you have Peter

Tomasi writing Batman and Robin, and it seems

like, you know, the Batman books and their satellites.

At least have like a cohesion to them. They all

you can see them all existing in the same world

whereas with the Superman books I don't get that

feeling it's slowly starting to change But I

they really just didn't have a firm grasp on

the character and I've been kind of wanting that,

you know You know Justice League started off

poorly. I thought you know, I don't think Jeff

Jones and Jim Lee were a really good match together

I don't think Jim Lee draws the type of stories

that Jeff likes to write. And that was kind of

proven that the book picked up when Jim Lee left.

And I started getting into it. And to be fair,

I've been enjoying Forever Evil for what it is.

This is Jeff Johns doing his huge, you know,

multi -part event and doing it rather well. You

know there are things that I don't like about

it. I you know I have long been I've kind of

started losing my taste for the Excessive violence.

I mean, I really didn't need to see I Didn't

need to see certain characters having their arms

ripped off But that goes all the way back to

infinite crisis where black Adam kills Psycho

pirate by poking his fingers in the mask and

basically vibrating his arm so that his head

and the dude's head explodes even better He just

pushes the mask right through it. I don't need

to see that but for whatever reason DC feels

the need, you know that they need to Put that

in there. And again, that's where the emotional

Investment is just lost because I'm not into

it That is not to say that there aren't good

books and that isn't to say that I don't enjoy

stuff. I just It's just not where my heart is

anymore. You mentioned the Grayson News that

by the time this airs would have been two weeks

old and I saw that and I'm like, really? I think

my personal opinion is they're only doing this

because they want to bring in the eyepatch thing

eventually because they're bringing in Batman

Beyond into the new 52. When I saw Dick Grayson

is going to be a secret agent or spy or whatever,

I was like, really? I mean, I'll give it a shot.

I mean, I was kind of heartbroken to realize

that, hey, to find out that Nightwing is ending,

because I loved what Kyle was doing with that

book. And then the biggest problem with DC is

their editorial. It really is. They pushed Forever

Evil and Nightwing 30 to the end of May. And

Batgirl30 comes out and she's talking about Dick

as in past tense. And it's like, okay, well,

we kind of saw that he died in Forever Evil number

six, so I get why she would say that. But it's

like, is he truly dead? Is he not? And now this

news comes out that he's going to be the Nick

Fury of the DC universe. It's like, oh, really?

Come on. I would have much rather, in Nightwing

number 29, they have a page where it shows a

potential... path for Dick and it shows him as

the Talon for the Court of Owls. I'd rather read

that story than read him as a secret agent. It

would be more interesting and with the way they

were able to fit Dick Grayson into the Owls storyline,

which I really enjoyed. Yeah, I did too. I wasn't

reading Nightwing at that time. I picked up the

first couple of issues and I was just like, you

know what, these things are three bucks a piece.

Really can't afford to read all of the Batman

titles and read all the other books that I want

to But I would pick it up during the crossovers

and I you know, I kept with a couple of them

after death of the family but it's just I Don't

know why DC Especially the upper echelon of DC

has such an issue with Dick Grayson and and I

say that as somebody that grew up with him being

Nightwing and You know, I, you know, I had the

Batman television series and I had the superpowers

figure and all that. So, you know, Dick Grayson

was Robin, but once I learned that he had progressed

beyond that and become Nightwing, I was pretty

much on board with that because I really liked

that character, especially when Chuck Dixon kind

of took him and made him this kind of, you know,

the... How do I want to say this? His own hero.

Well, when Marvel... Pretty much. Marv Wolfman

made him his own hero, but he took him completely

out of the Bat family for a long time to the

point where in 89 and 90 up until 1994, when

you would have a DC Comics training card series,

you wouldn't have Batman or Robin because they

were tied up with tops because of the movie franchise.

But Nightwing would be part of that. And then

after, you know, I guess New Titans just kind

of Started going downhill Tom Panneris who hosts

taking flight would have a better Idea of that

because he followed that book closer than I did

You know that they I guess they just decided

in the mid 90s. You know what? We're gonna make

him a Batman character again. So while he was

You know his own man. He was also part of the

family so it felt like he had found some kind

of peace with that and Chuck Dixon took him on

a journey That you know had him becoming a police

officer. So for people saying, you know, you

know Dick Grayson with guns. That's that's weird

Yeah, he wasn't carrying them his nightwing.

But when he was a cop one of the big things,

you know I remember there was a story during

the cataclysm storyline where Batman looks at

him He goes, you know, you're gonna have a weapon

and you're gonna you know You're gonna be in

a baby put in a position to use lethal force

and that was an interesting discussion to have

with this man that grew up with a father figure

that's just, guns are bad, okay? And now he is

going to be carrying a weapon. And for whatever

reason, and I don't want to blame it all on Dan

DiDio, he's the one that wanted to kill him during

Infinite Crisis, everyone had to talk him down.

It's just, if he's not Robin, who is he? Well,

he's Nightwing. Well, who's Nightwing? And it

puts... it puts the characters in this weird

position where you have, you know, Batman and

then you have Nightwing and then you have Robin.

So really you don't have two generations, you

have three. And I guess some people just can't

wrap their heads around that. So they're going

to do something completely and utterly outside

of anything that has been done with the character

before just to see if it's going to stick. Marvel

did this a couple of years ago, and now I think

it's DC's turn to kind of play with that. I mean,

we're gonna have Lex Luthor as part of the Justice

League. So, uh... Worked in the cartoon. And

apparently my dog's very upset about Lex Luthor

becoming part of the Justice League. Wow, they're

really angry. Yikes. But having him be the hero

after the events of Forever Evil... I'll let

that finish out. uh really smacks of norman osborne

becoming the hero quote unquote after secret

invasion now dc's doing it in a different path

because lex is it seems like from all the solicitations

and the and the hype that lex is really trying

to play this role or sees himself in that. So

it's not like Norman Osborn who has a larger

agenda. You know, it's Lex Luthor and Captain

Cold who have been made into anti -heroes almost.

But still, you know, DC's going through this

and that's because, you know, they kind of have

to because it's... it's their way to keep their

books viable and to keep it in the spotlight.

I mean, would Nightwing getting canceled doesn't

get in the USA today. Dick Grayson becoming a

secret agent for a short period of time gets

into USA today. Spider -Man being Doc Ock. Which

has actually been a pretty decent story, and

I've really enjoyed it. At some point I'm gonna

get to read the the earlier issues thanks to

somebody and You know these are just storylines

and I understand that and the fact that I have

no emotional investment Leads me lets me not

get angry about it See my only anger is like

with Specifically to deal because he he's been

the one most vocal of wanting to kill Grayson

And my problem was Kyle Higgins was taking the

character You know sure he he Kyle has said he

even said to me in the interview I did with him

that you know What does everybody know about

Dick Grayson? He was the first Robin now. He's

Nightwing so Okay, he's fully ensconced in the

bat family is almost pretty much the second -in

-command when it comes to the other characters

outside of Alfred And it's one of those things

where Kyle put him in Chicago gave him his own

cast, pretty much gave him his own, you know,

rogues gallery. Okay, sure, you could say they

kind of went back to the well with saying that

Zuko was still alive, but I like that story.

I thought that was a really great story, and

I wanted to see more of him in Chicago, and now

they're not doing that, and is it... going to

like make me go out and make life -altering decisions

no but as a reader and as a fan of the character

it just you know it just it just makes me so

mad about it well there's always going to be

that disappointment when something you really

like changes and something that you got into

and it seems like they are more willing to pull

the uh... you know pull the lever in the uh...

You know the in the cancel switch and to change

something out when something doesn't work You

know how were nightwing sales I? Honestly don't

know and and that's the thing is that if it was

doing well, and it was selling like you know

like you know boffo numbers Then I don't think

you would have had a change like this But I'm

thinking that You know, at some point the sales

numbers didn't really justify what DC wanted

out of it, or they're just doing it for the hype

to get a bump on the title that may have been

teetering on cancellation. I mean, a lot of these

books didn't do as well as I think DC wanted

them to do. You know the fact that they were

canceling books as early into the new 52 as they

were Kind of see it says to me. Well, maybe your

idea of launching with 52 books wasn't the best

of ideas, but regardless of that You know With

the publishing business being what it is and

with comic the comic business being what it is,

which has been you know doing you know it's alive

but i can't say that it's actually been you know

the best it's ever been you know we've we've

had some some peaks and some valleys but to me

it's like the both companies feel that they have

to do these really shocking storylines to get

a bump in sales i mean are you really you know

amazing spider -man number one's coming out next

month i believe or is it at the end of april

i forget and They publish those books twice a

month, so it could be either. So, you know, there

was a thing that came out recently, Amazing Spider

-Man number one, five hundred thousand pre -orders,

which is pretty much unheard of today. And then

you you really start digging into that. You're

like, well, those pre -orders are probably based

on the variants because there's 14 and counting

variants to Amazing Spider -Man number one. It's

kind of insane and some of those variants are

from shops that are ordering the shop exclusive

so basically I think if you order 3 ,000 copies

of Amazing spider -man number one you can get

your own You know basically customized Cover

for Amazing spider -man number one now think

about that three grand Now the comic shops aren't

paying $3 .99. I don't know what they're What

they actually pay for it, but you know that's

at least like $6 ,000 probably tied up in You

know spider -man in Amazing spider -man number

one that you're not going to sell so you can

get the one variant that you can sell hopefully

for $3 ,000 it was the same thing when Superman

Unchained number one came out You know, you know

the the the one variant was like a hundred bucks

You know was like five hundred dollars because

that's what it cost the shop to order all the

other number one So they're basically making

all their money off of that one variant if they

could sell it and everything else is gravy So

it's it I would not want to be in either in any

kind of editorial position at DC or Marvel right

now I just I think I think you are in a a constant

lose -lose situation Pretty much And the thing

with zero year is I mean, I'm a fan of Batman

I I started with death of the death of the family

with the new 52 So I started at issue 13 read

death of the family and then I went back and

read Court of Owls Court of Owls is easily the

best story that Snyder has done so far death

of the family was To quote the Joker sadly anti

-climactic at the end And then zero year. It's

just I'm more interested to see this jump, this

five -year jump, and what's going on there. What

are your opinions of them jumping five years

for DC? I thought they were only doing it for

a month, so... No, no, no. The five -year timeline

jump inside the comics. Oh, I thought you meant

the thing they're doing in September. I apologize.

Because not only is there a five -year timeline,

I think the five -year timeline is much crap.

And you know I've been trying to be kind of you

know not PC or or nice about the whole thing

But I haven't really been trying to to go off

on rants lately because there's just no margin

in it for me, but when you I Understand that

DC wants to make their characters younger Which

which is fair in a marketplace where they're

trying to appeal to a new generation that doesn't

read comics the way we read comics when we were

kids. You know, a lot of people, I mean, recently,

Adventures of Superman, the digital series was

canceled. It's being replaced with an Infinite

Crisis tie -in because that's the new gaming

thing. And the reason why, you know, personally,

I have no hard data to back this up, but the

reason why I think that's happening is because

Adventures of Superman was probably doing well,

but Injustice was doing crazy. and smallville

has been doing crazy and that's because people

who don't normally read comics are buying it

because it's a buck and they have an ipad or

a or a samsung galaxy tablet or some other kind

of tablet so i understand you want to appeal

to that you know kind of target audience and

that may be a batman that is 35 won't appeal

to that the problem is DC wanted to have its

cake and eat it too. It wanted to start with

new number ones and have new timelines and new

origins for characters, but it wanted to keep

Green Lantern and Batman where they were, or

at least somewhat where they were, because those

books were selling well. So it's why every bit

of, well, you know, we didn't do number ones

just to show that we were, you know, trying to

change. Well, if you were really going to do

that, you would have started everything off at

ground zero and let Grant Morrison finish off

his, you know, his Batman story, you know, in

its own little thing. It still would have sold.

There are a lot of people that liked it. And,

you know, then that's the only problem there

is, you know, what about what Jeff Johns wanted

to do with Green Lantern? Because obviously there

were plans. Going from war of the Green Lanterns

aftermath to Green Lantern number one. I don't

think there was much of a jump there It's not

like a lot of that everything still happened

within the Green Lantern framework of you know

parallax and blackest night and all that so The

the real where that problem manifests itself

is especially in Batman because what you're telling

me is one that Bruce Wayne was Batman a year

before everything really started, which is fine.

You know, if he's operating in secret, whatevs.

But then you're going to tell me that there was

five Robins in five years and everything that

happened with with that happened in those five

years. And it just doesn't scan with me because

because you're one of the new origin for Tim

Drake didn't really appeal to me. I just I. was

such a fan of that character before the new 52

that you didn't like the zero issue ah no i mean

i don't like having his parents being put witness

protection and all that you know that's just

it just didn't work it took all the heart of

who that character was the great thing about

tim drake was that you know he figured out who

batman was and his original mission was i got

to get dick gracing back as robin And then, you

know, becoming Robin wasn't really in his sights

and he had to work for it. And it took almost

a year. So when you have a five -year timeline,

you don't have that. And when you have in your

first issue of Batman saying that all these people

were Robin and then retconning that he was Red

Robin because he didn't want to disgrace the

memory of Jason Todd, you know, that's BS. And,

you know, keeping it to five years just limits

you. You know, I have long held that DC would

have been better off just starting everything

off at ground zero and starting again. And then

having Dick Grayson be, you know, they can make

him any kind of Robin they want him to be. Having

it where everyone's just starting out. You don't

have the confusion of the Superman titles where

it's just like everybody's on it You know all

the titles are a different timeline, and you

really you know if you're reading all of them

It's kind of a confusing experience. You know

you could introduce characters like Sinestro

and Lex Luthor and the Joker and all that have

new versions of those for a new audience instead

of trying to do this Well, you know, Jeff and

Grant had these stories to tell and we kind of

got to appease to them, but we really got to

do something because sales are dropping. So the

New 52 has been scattershot from the beginning.

I would say that the only, at least from my money,

the only two that, and I'm only saying this because

I believe it and because they are my favorite

characters in the Bat family, the only two that

really didn't start off so scattershot was Batgirl

and Nightwing. Because in Batgirl, Simone retained

the fact that she did get shot by the Joker.

She did have to rehabilitate from that. And then

in Nightwing, he's basically coming off of being

Batman while Bruce was away or while Bruce was

wherever the hell Bruce was. What was I going

to say? The whole thing with the new 52, every

time I hear that title and every time I hear

that Batman and Green Lantern were the only ones

that really kept up what had been previous, I

keep flashing to the once and future thing. So

that all really happened. Think so. That complicates

things. Alright, so let's talk a bit about your

Superman fandom. How did that, like was it the

movie, well you kind of mentioned earlier that

it was the movies a little bit, but like reading

the comics, where did that kind of come from

for Superman? Well, it started with the movies,

you know, the Christopher Reeve films and the

Super Friends, you know, the Reeve films, I cannot

say enough about how influential they were. on

me you know not not my you know outlook on on

how to treat people and all that just just in

how much they meant to me growing up when i uh

when i was 11 years old or when i was 10 years

old my family moved from uh one area in pennsylvania

to another and all of a sudden i didn't have

the friends that i had and i i really you know

i was in this whole new area things weren't really

Going all that well for me at school It's not

like I was getting it's not like I was Daniel

LaRusso getting beat up every day and had to

learn karate from the guy that you know cleans

up around the apartment complex, but the you

know, I needed something and I stumbled into

the John Byrne Superman comics and I have I had

as a kid a jacked up real I had an overbite that

was biblical I mean this thing I mean it was

just like not only did I have buck teeth but

they kind of stuck out a little so it's like

God was daring everybody to knock them out and

At the orthodontist office, even before I was

getting it, because all my sisters wanted Harness

at one point or another, there were all these

comics, and mostly they were DC, and mostly they

were Superman. So that kind of got the ball rolling

to when, you know, on the day that I really started

picking them up, with Superman number 8 and Action

Comics number 591, it became this slow... you

know descent into madness almost and around about

a year that was in spring of 87 and by fall of

88 I was just completely hooked on these books

and For my entire school career, you know, I

had good friends I did you know, a lot of musicals

and plays and stuff like that. I was in chorus.

You know, I wasn't the most social of people,

but I wasn't a complete shut -in at the same

time. The one constant through all of that is

that I read the Superman books and I was into

that. And that all kind of came to a glorious,

you know, like crescendo when the death of Superman

happened. And suddenly the books that I had been

made fun of for reading, because when I was in

junior high, if you were reading Superman and

you weren't reading the X -Men you might as well

have been wearing a dress almost. I mean it was

just it just was one of those things where Superman

just wasn't popular and suddenly he was suddenly

you know the the greatest revenge I ever had

because I didn't really know a whole lot of comic

book fans. I mean I knew people that read comics

and we all kind of knew who each other was but

I never hung out with them. they would always

give me crap until superman number 75 came out

they were struggling to find their copies and

mine was just sitting in my hold box because

i had had one for over a year so you know superman

Just became and the way that the creators Crafted

the stories and it became basically after a while

a weekly book that was that was my thing You

know that that was my version of Superman that

I responded to I loved those characters I you

know, I liked the villains. I liked the storylines

and From there it became this well, let me learn

more about this character to the point where

you know, I was what you know trying to track

down all of the you know the the cereals and

the you know watching the george reeve series

and You know and and and watching the fleischer

things at a time where that was really difficult

to do Because it's not like it's not like today

where everything's on dvd or blu -ray or you

can get it on itunes I mean at one point, you

know, the superman cereals being on tv was a

huge deal and So it it just he just became my

favorite character. He just became the the one

that I you know stuck with even when i left the

books for 10 months and came back i was still

reading my back issues especially since you know

i have a show that i do with my friend jeffrey

taylor called from crisis to crisis where we're

going through the post crisis superman you know

you know even then superman was always part of

my life so it's just one of those things where

you know i'm 38 now I was 11 when everything

started. So you're talking 27 solid years of

having a character be part of you. And I have

made friends through Superman, which I never

thought was going to happen because during the

90s, when I went to the comic shop, and I'm sure

this was the same at comic shops across the United

States and around the world, you know, there

was always that one or two guys that read Superman.

You know, and they knew who each other were.

And then when you had the internet, all of those

one or two guys got to come together. And I became

part of the Superman homepage. And it's just

been this huge thing with me that, you know,

while I don't always sit there and obsess about

the character, he is always part of my life in

one form or the other. Right, right. Now, what

would you have thought of if they did the opposite?

Because I remember watching a special feature

somewhere, I don't think it was on the Lois and

Clark DVDs, but the only reason why they killed

him is because the show wanted to marry human

Lois. Yes, absolutely. So, what would you have

thought of if they reversed that? Well, if they

did it in 92, I would have been happy. I would

have been excited because... Him getting engaged

was a huge deal because I was I was there as

it was happening. So Clark and Lois's relationship

Was like my soap opera that was you know, something

that I was Emotionally invested in you know,

I talked about you know not having that with

the new 52 I was totally like down with those

two getting together. So if it would have been

uh you know and i've read two different things

i've read you know some people some sources say

it was supposed to be superman number 75 others

say it was supposed to be adventures superman

number 500 you know if that if they would have

married them and that would have been the big

deal which would have still probably uh caused

some kind of media frenzy just not in the way

that the death of superman did because the death

of superman was a complete fluke the media firestorm

that it created so I would have been cool either

way all right let's see what else okay you've

seen more s right yes I have Brody is kind of

right isn't he have you ever read a man of steel

would have Kleenex by Larry Niven no This is

a funny essay that science fiction writer Larry

Niven wrote, basically describing why Superman

can't mate with a human. Brody had the whole

thing about the kryptonite condom and all that,

and the shotgun analogy, which Niven goes into.

But he goes into it deeper, where he's just like,

why would they even be attracted to each other?

To Superman, Lois probably smells like a primate.

So, you know, probably doesn't even feel right.

So I think that's a funny scene. I think it's

even funnier that that's what got him the writing

gig on to script to do a couple of drafts of

the Superman Lives script. Like, like executives

see that and go, you know, he seems to know something

about Superman. You realize he was talking about

a Kryptonite condom, right? Yeah, but he seems

to know about the character. Let's let him write

it. Yeah. Yeah, you're right, but I was more

so referencing Brody's other fact, Wonder Woman's

tubes are the only one that could hold his baby,

and now they're dating. And to be fair, I don't

have a problem with Superman and Wonder Woman

dating. I'm glad that they're doing something

with it, because they played with that back in

88. And that's and it just it just didn't happen

and that was fine It was an interesting, you

know story leading up to action 600 but when

they announced, you know Superman and Wonder

Woman are dating and it was on like Good Morning

America It was this huge, you know media thing,

you know, I was just like, okay, that's fine.

Let's uh Let's see where this goes and to be

fair I'm a month or two behind but I've really

enjoyed Superman Wonder Woman as a title So and

yeah, you know Wonder Woman to me where Superman

will always end up because I think he and Lois

are destined to be together and I like that relationship

but she's gonna get old and he's not so eventually

you know she's going to shuffle off this mortal

coil and where does that leave him well it leaves

him with the other kind of a mortal superhero

female superhero and that's wonderful so I, you

know, as long as it's done well, I don't have

a problem with them being together. I'm, uh...

I'm of the opinion, though, that it's probably

not going to be forever, because that's just

not how DC goes, you know. No! Didier has been

pretty open that, you know, having his characters

be happy is not in their best interest, so...

Yeah. Oh, man. You know, I... I just see the

Big Three as one just giant screwed -up love

triangle. Because, you know, in certain aspects,

you know, you've, okay, Justice League, they'd

never actually came out and said they were in

a relationship, but they had this whole dance

with Bruce and Diana. And I really liked that,

too. Yeah, I thought it was awesome as well.

Yeah. I love his reasoning. He's like, you know,

you're a princess from a... You know clan of

warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues lots of

issues And you know what if you know she basically

basically did debunks his whole argument by just

crushing a gargoyle and saying Yeah, your villains

coming after me. That's not gonna be a problem

If you're going if you're going from the perspective

of the aristocrat and the princess that works

out You know on paper that works out a lot better

That works out a lot better than the the farm

boy and the princess but both work You know,

it just depends on how you play it when they

were doing that on Justice League I was totally

into that, you know that the the one Episode

where Wonder Woman was buried underneath all

the rubble and Batman was frantically trying

to free her and she sees the you know She sees

his hands and you know, they just look dirty

But you know, they're burnt basically and and

and scratched up and injured and she kisses him

on the cheek You know, I was just like well You

know, why not Batman and Wonder Woman? I mean,

my wife's more down with that than I am, actually,

which is kind of funny. And I love, and I know

this isn't, technically it's comic characters,

but it's animation, but whatever. I love this

little piggy. I love that episode so much. Oh

my God. Actually, see, wow, I guess the dogs

don't like it. Sorry about this. We're having

issues. We're having issues. It's okay. You're

fine. Get it all out of your system. Sorry about

that. Go on. Cuz cuz this little piggy it it

really shows a very rarely. Do you see a soft

side of Bruce? Very rarely and is it and then

you just like I knew I didn't know what was coming

when Cersei said something so dark that you don't

tell like as soon as he squints his eyes I'm

like, oh, what are we in for in then? Am I blue?

And I was like, oh my god, this is the best thing

ever. It's one of the few times Batman singing

works for me. That's why I thought the Batman

musical idea that Jim Steinman had been working

on was just awful. The only Batman musical that

ever worked was Superstitious Cowardly Lot. Yep.

Oh, come on. This is schway. It's schwar -bitch.

well batman beyond in general was just amazing

but that that was uh you know every once in a

while No, not you just I'm yelling at the dogs

no Batman Beyond was just brilliant in general

But they're but every once in a while you could

really see these guys You're kind of letting

their hair down and having fun With with what

they were doing and just the idea of Batman being

this like kind of cheesy Broadway musicals Just

just made me laugh on so many levels That was

the second time that conroy saying because I

believe he did sing those lines in that episode

And in superstitious cowardly lot Yeah, I'm pretty

sure he did too because apparently, you know,

he had a good, you know, he has a good singing

voice. Oh, yeah, most definitely. Are you reading

the current Batman Beyond comics that started

2011 with Adam Beecham? No, but the thing is

is that I don't read comics the way I used to.

I used to, you know, five years ago, six years

ago, even seven years ago. I was the guy that

tried to get there every Wednesday. picked up

my books, I read them as soon as I got them,

and now I go sometimes on a weekly basis, but

I have like a year's worth of titles just stacked

up. And most people use that as their sign of,

okay, I need to drop this book. That is my thing

of, I'm not into this right now, but I know down

the line I will be, and I'd rather pick them

up and have them for when I need it than have

to go on eBay and pray for a cheap lot. I would

say you can currently pick up the two trades

for the Adam Beecham run. 10 ,000 clowns and

Batgirl Beyond. And then Kyle Higgins took it

over with Batman Beyond 2 .0, which is currently

in the print version. It's Batman Beyond Universe.

And because he has such a love of the DC animated

universe, he's taken it to a whole nother level.

I cannot say enough good things about this series.

It is so good. he brings back Langstrom he what

else have they done they did let's see brings

back Langstrom they did a version of oh my god

how is Batman Batgirl Nightwing And Robin's still

alive in the future timeline. No, no, listen.

They did a version of this, and when it first

happened, it was the very first arc in the...

When they relaunched it as 2 .0, it was the very

first arc called Rewired. And you open this page

and you see... Because every... I don't get this

argument. I understand why people like Nightwing

in the blue. Don't get me wrong. i love the animated

series and the blue you know but for me reading

the comics the red is where it's at well where

it was that consider now it's gone but when you

know because it's based in the animated universe

they they bring back the blue see you see nightwing

show up as in terry's like what what are you

doing here and then you see them all and it's

a leisure cliffhanger is like oh my god how are

they all still alive what is going on it's such

i mean if you love the show i would say pick

those up at you know when you can because it's

amazing it really really is and right now they're

doing the first ever crossover with justice justice

league 2 .0 justice league justice league beyond

2 .0 it's the justice lords where terry actually

goes to the Justice Lords timeline. Oh, wow.

Yeah, I've seen the I've kind of seen like, you

know, pictures and stuff from that. That's pretty

awesome. I mean, it is. It's like the DC animated

universe is not gone, even though it really,

you know, in cartoon form it is. They are keeping

this. So ensconced. Now, I have not been reading

Justice League 2 .0 up until this first crossover.

I just couldn't get into it. It just wasn't my

thing. But the Batman Beyond stuff, oh man, it's

so good. So good. Alright, give people three

recommendations of stuff that you're reading

that you think they should check out. I would

say check out Earth 2 and World's Finest. I think,

again, I'm a little behind, but I think that

they have managed to create a separate earth

and characters from a separate earth that really

just completely and utterly work on a level where

if I'm a fan of the justice society, So you would

think that I would be a little like, you know,

like hesitant to get into Something that kind

of takes those characters and puts them on a

new path But I think you know with what Robinson

did and what Tom Tyler is doing or Taylor Taylor

or Tyler? Taylor Okay, Tom. Tyler was actually

Captain Marvel in the movie serials. He was an

actor. So I'm confused Those those two books

are solid I got into Scott Snyder as a Batman

writer. I am waiting for zero year to completely

finish before I sit down and read the whole thing.

But going, you know, I've gone back and read

his Detective Comics run, which was just amazing.

And just the whole Court of Owls and everything.

So I would definitely suggest anything Snyder's

doing with with Batman at the very least. And,

you know, it's going to sound weird. I'd actually

recommend Forever Evil because it As a crossover,

it's hitting a lot of the buttons that I like

to see in a big crossover. I mean, there are

things about it I don't like. I don't like that

there is a bigger bad beyond the crime syndicate.

I think it would have been just enough. But the

whole storyline leading up to that in both Justice

League and Justice League of America, I was really

engaged in. And those titles have been really

good. As the crossover so those would be the

three that I would recommend Awesome. Awesome.

Why don't you inform people of where they can

find your content and where they can interact

with you online? Oh dear. Um There's a lot of

content. I know I haven't done a whole lot recently

because of some Some things going on in my private

life that have really kind of kept me off the

grid But I you know, you can go to views from

a long box calm. There's over 200 episodes worth

of, you know, you're gonna see, Mike, it only

says 169 or 79. Yeah, but, you know, with my

weird numbering and things, there's like over

200 episodes of stuff there to check out. That

is just me talking about comics. I sometimes

have a guest, I sometimes do it by myself. Sometimes

I do interviews. It's just just me just kind

of having fun and talking about whatever is really

on my mind And if you want to see the slow descent

into madness that was me walking away from comics

You can kind of hear it in there because I was

angry at one point. There's From crisis to crisis

a Superman podcast that I co -host with Jeffrey

Taylor where we we started with Man of Steel

number one We are now deep into 1994 Before I

had to take my little break. We've gotten halfway

through that year So I'm kind of excited about

that because we're heading right into zero hour

But it's him and I talking about the post -crisis

Superman and giving it the most in -depth analysis.

It's never had We spent, you know Three or four

months talking about the death and return of

Superman and covered every single aspect of that

story from the comics to the audio Drama to the

novelization to the trading card see it sets

I mean just about everything and you can find

that either at fortress of Bailey to calm which

is kind of my Superman blog or at the Superman

podcast Network calm which has a bunch of other

Superman podcasts you might want to check out

and Then there's a step over at two true freaks

Scott Gardner and I do Tales of the Justice Society

of America, where we're looking at the JSA from

their revamp in the mid -70s, and right now we're

into the 80s and almost getting to Crisis on

Infinite Earths, which we're looking forward

to. And also I'm on their show Comics Monthly

Monday, where once a month Chris Honeywell, the

other part of Two True Freaks, Scott Gardner

and I sit around and just talk about various

things in comics. And because I'm insane, I also

am part of the Spider -Man Crawl Space podcast,

where once a month I get together with Brad Douglas

and George Berriman and sometimes JR Fettinger,

and we talk about what's going on in the world

of Spider -Man that month. And that's actually

what led me to reading Superior Spider -Man,

which I guess I should have recommended too,

because I've been really enjoying the wrap up

of that series. It's been a lot of fun, actually.

It has. I've only read up to the Venom Saga part

of it, the Darkest Hours. I plan on getting the

Goblin Nation in trade. I just couldn't continue

with the singles. It just... I don't know, it

was just a little too strange for me, but I do

plan on getting that in trade. Alright, so are

you on Twitter? Where can people find you? I'm

on Facebook. I have a Twitter account I never

used, at Bailey's Podcast. And I'm on Facebook

Michael Bailey, you know, I tend to shoot my

mouth off every once in a while Awesome awesome.

So coming up on the pull bag May is Batman's

75th anniversary I believe it's 13 episodes of

the pull bag I think over four weeks. So yeah,

enjoy that we cover stuff like The Beware the

Batman digital series, Dark Knight Returns, Year

One, Killing Joke, what else? Bunch of stuff

coming up. There's even reviews of Batman 66

numbers five through eight. and more I promise

everybody I will not do a 13 month spotlight

in one month or a 13 episode spotlight in one

month ever again but it is Batman 75th after

all and I didn't really do anything for Superman

75th because the show didn't exist back then

so or if it did it was in its infancy so alright

for now I am TF2 and Mike with Michael Bailey

Make your great escape into comics, and we will

catch you next time. Any minute now, Brainiac

will explode. And guess what? You're going with

him. No, Darkseid. To get off this rock you'll

have to go through me. You really are a glutton

for punishment. Time and again I've beaten you,

humbled you. What makes you think today's outcome

will be any different? Because this time, I won't

stop until you're just a greasy smear on my fist.

Let's go. You've just heard the latest episode

of The Pullback, the GCRN's comic review and

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