Comic Character Deaths: Why Editorial Kills and Resurrects

Oh well, looky what we have here. Welcome to

the Joker Cave. Certainly not any jokes around

here. What with all the seriousness of putting

geeks in a round table about comic books. You're

listening to The Pullback After Dark. Oh, Aunt

May. Resurrection? Well, actually, she was just

a generically altered actress by Greg Goblin

through Aunt May, who was held captive in the

Goblin's basement, uh, rescued by Spider -Man.

She was forced to make wheat cakes for years,

and it's like, ah, fuck that. Why is that on

the list? She wasn't fucking dead! She might

as well have been. Well, she's dead to me, not

returning my fucking e -harmony PMs. Useless

bitch. I believe there's a hero in all of us.

Hello and welcome to The Pole Bag. This is episode

65 and you might be asking if this is a numbered

episode to you, Joe and Mike, why did I hear

the After Dark intro? Well, that's because I'm

breaking my own rules and I had to have something

here for episode 65 since DC completely screwed

everybody. out of Nightwing number thirty and

Forever Evil number seven, so Steve and I couldn't

actually do the final issue of single issue bat

books that we were going to do. So, yeah, we're

here to talk about comic character deaths. I

am your host, DFJ Mike. Joining me is Steve Megajohn.

Hello. Hello. Jeremy Howard. Hello. Oh, I'm sorry.

You're Dr. Fine, right? Would you believe it's

the first time I'm without a punchline? Yeah

And of course from Punisher body count Dane Lamont.

Hello, sir. Hey there and to be fair to your

audience We are doing this after dark. So, I

mean if you want to finagle it it still counts

Most definitely see that's the thing with the

after darks. A lot of people don't notice this.

I publish them Wednesday night after dark. Oh

Wait, wait one second. Let me put down my smoke

here. I gotta do this So what happened everyone

clap for Mike? Oh shut up. And puns all around.

Uh huh. Why don't you go drink some tiger blood?

Yeah, exactly. At least my tiger blood makes

more sense than your puns. I really hate it when

Charlie Sheen shows up. Well, proceed. So, we're

here to talk about comic book character deaths.

We're going to hit on several different topics

here in the episode. um let's go around the room

what was the first like each of your favorite

comic characters and when they potentially died

or came back to life what what was something

in comics that you were reading that just completely

shocked you steve how many times they killed

optimus prime in the generation one comics from

marvel yeah once in the animated movie just wasn't

enough well it seemed like they they bring him

back and kill him every I don't know, five to

ten issues. It would be a five -issue return

and then it would be a one -issue downfall and

then it would just be Megatron losing his shit

because Prime was dead and then Prime would come

back and then they'd lose their shit again. Yes.

Replay. Yeah. What about you, Dane? I'm gonna

put this on its head a little bit because the

character death, the first character death I

really experienced when I was really new to comics

like within my first year I thought okay I want

to get familiar with comic book culture what

are some landmark things I can read and the death

of superman trade paperback was there out in

the comic book store like half off and I go oh

this is perfect I can read about this landmark

issue and I just read While reading it, I realized

that I've watched WWF matches with more pathos

and story sense than this piece of shit. This

is really awful. Is this how all character deaths

are done? This is horrific. Why should I give

a shit about this diamond monster beating the

shit out of Superman? Who is this guy? And that

almost made me stop reading comics for a long

time. The only thing I really appreciated was

it did make me go, oh, Superman's a really nice

dude. I like this guy. I'm sorry he was in this

story. I'm sorry he had to go out like this.

But even at that point, I knew he came back,

so it didn't really matter. Yeah, what about

you, Jeremy? You know, this was a tough one.

But I actually, I'm going to go to the Mirage

comics of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with Shredder.

Because when I started watching the kid -tested,

mother -approved 1987 cartoon, after the first

movie came out, when I was at science camp, this

kid gave me a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comic.

And he said, well, you know, you saw the movie,

this is what really happens in the comics. And,

you know, because the comics were, you couldn't

find them because they were so graphic that they

were becoming a hard commodity because they were

more violent than the show. So when you read

the first issue, Not only shredder in the first

few pages, but he's killed and not only is he

killed but he Because the rooftop battle of course

in the movie happens in the comic but in the

comics it's the four turtles that go and they

actually are able to bring down shredder and

then Leonardo gives shredder his katana blade

and says, you know, do the honorable thing and

kill yourself with honor. Shredder says, no,

he takes a grenade, throws it at the turtles.

Donatello uses a bow to block the grenade and

throws them, he throws Shredder off the building

and Shredder is blown to pieces. And you think

maybe he escaped kind of like, you know, with

the movie falling in the garbage truck and yada

yada, but this is like he's blown up. And then

they just go on other adventures and then all

of a sudden he's back. And, you know, I guess,

like, it was hard to get the comics, and now

that I'm starting, you know, the Mirage is bringing

back the, you know, the reprints. And I started

to watch the 2003 series, it's starting to come

together, but back then, you're like, wow. You

know, it's like, why would you kill, like, the

most important villain, and then just move on,

like he was nothing? Yeah. Since I didn't really

grow I didn't really grow up on comics I don't

have a whole heck of a lot like I Thought it

was really shocking that not necessarily she

didn't die But I thought it was really shocking

that the Joker nearly killed Barbara Gordon For

me right now since I'm more into comics now,

it's kind of like Forget you danda dildo because

you're taking away my favorite character you

jerk Now we don't know as of this recording we

do not know if Dick Grayson will come back at

some point but as of this recording only forever

evil number six has come out and He's dead and

I'm it didn't really have I was more upset with

the comic book company than I was with the actual

storyline of how he died because it's like oh

god I don't care I care and I don't care that

this is the 75th year of Batman but it's just

one of those things where they're getting rid

of every sidekick pretty much and it's like really

seriously But for me, I don't really have one

I mean sure it was a you know It was interesting

and kind of shocking even though I already knew

about it that that uncle Ben died in the first

spider -man movie I think I don't know which

one handled it better whether it was Remy's first

spider -man or whether it was the first amazing

spider -man as far as uncle Ben's death I'd say

for emotional value. It was probably Remy's first

spider -man And for a different story angle,

I would say that it's The Amazing Spider -Man.

But yeah, I mean, for me, it's like, why do these

editorial people feel like they need to constantly

kill characters? Oh man, I have a whole list

of reasons. No, literally, I wrote out a list.

I care. I'm sure you did. You are that thorough.

It's just one of those things where, you know,

then you mention the death of superman you know

the only reason why they killed him was because

they couldn't marry him and lois in the comics

because they were doing it in lois and clark

the tv show at the time yeah i heard stuff like

that on but actually like them getting married

in the tv show did not force them them that push

for the marriage in the comics Or is that the

other? No, it had to be. No, it's the other way

around. Oh, really? They said they had several

ideas. I saw this on some special feature. I

don't know where. They had said that they were

going to marry them in the comics at that time,

but they wanted to allow the show to be able

to tell its own story. So then they're like,

oh, why don't we just kill them? Oh, see, that's

really good filler, you know. In Japanese anime,

they just have two people stare at each other

for a long time before they punch. But no, that's

great. Just have the main character die. Wow.

What else? And really, I don't know out of the

big two who is the more sadistic comic book company.

someone who's editorial staff says, oh, well,

we can't marry them because they're doing that

on the TV show. Let's kill them. Or editorial

staff that says, hey, let's leave it up to the

fans to vote whether this character lives or

dies. And of course, all the sadistic people

of the world decided to kill Jason Todd. We know

that story though, right? What the true story

was? What's that? I did have Under the Red Hood

for a while on Blu -ray and there was a special

feature and there is this controversy about the

800 number and what happened was that because

people were confused that weren't reading comics

for a while and they kept thinking it was Dick

Grayson they forgot in the 70s he became Nightwing

so when it became Jason Todd and people were

going back and forth. They were on the table

because like, yeah, he's annoying, but does he

have to die? So what happened was this whole

big thing on that special feature where not only

people calling the 800 number, but apparently

there is a collection of the vote. Oh, it's a

900 number. Oh yeah, remember those. DC got to

get paid, son. Something about that they that

somebody actually has the actual list and that

the votes were fixed that that it wasn't There

was actually a few votes, but then people were

like, you know what? Nobody likes Jason Todd

anyway, and then of course let it be known that

under the Red Hood Well, you know he goes he

goes in the Lazarus pit But back then there was

this whole big thing on on whether or not the

votes were fixed or not. I heard that it Came

down to a margin of like a dozen or so votes.

Like it was close. I didn't hear the idea that

it's a conspiracy man and that they did it like

it was rigged. I didn't hear that. I don't doubt

it. I just didn't hear it that way. Yeah. Um,

for me, it's like, I don't know. All right. Look,

I'm going to jump over to my Marvel soap box

here for a minute. And I know Steve is going

to groan when I bring this up. because everyone

that I've ever talked to in the last two years

is just shaking their head at me about this.

The Avengers came out in 2012. I've never really

cared for Coulson all that much in the Marvel

Universe. He was a character he needed to be

there for Iron Man, Iron Man 2, and he's there

in Avengers to basically bring the team together.

Then he quote -unquote dies now This is something

that that Josh Wheaton does a lot of times Specifically

with the TV show angel he killed Fred and brought

her back as some old one demon etc etc etc and

So they kill him in the movie and then hey, let's

let's let's make some money. Let's let's bring

him back. Let's Let's have him go level seven

with agents of shield now. I've only watched

the first five or six episodes of the first season

I don't like it's not about my whole soapbox

about Colson needs to stay dead to Keep up the

the appearance of the Avengers film and the emotion

that was in that I don't care for any of the

characters, any of the supporting cast on that

show whatsoever. The thing is with that show,

I mean, and that's kind of its own thing, Coulson

was created for the movie verse and then brought

back down to everything else. But he was also,

yeah he was instrumental in everything, but too

that show sucks until it gets to like episode

12 and then it starts getting, picking up and

picking up and it's actually halfway decent now.

Yeah, see because I'm back into the films whereas

the other one was coming off of the the the high

that we all had of a drug of The Avengers and

then you go to this and then it was kind of like

okay. This is boring, but It was necessary at

the time, but now that it's ramping up because

of the events of Captain America 2 It should

pick up a lot more in the future Yeah, you know,

I don't know I it's and as I said, it's not necessarily

because of my Wanting Colson to stay dead or

have something to some other plotline with it

like I said it's more so the reason why I don't

watch the show now is nothing to do with that

it has to do with the fact that I Can't stand

a lot of the side characters But my coming back

to the idea of death in this yes maybe Colson's

death turn you off because we're talking about

comics mostly here but movie as a medium I think

we've come to expect that even though even in

today's Marvel oh it's all connected we got this

shit planned out till 2018 we still expect a

three act narrative with closure and consequence

and with Colson dying you got that but then they

did something that you expect in comics but not

necessarily as much in movies and td which is

always back here's our hand wave reason for it

and enjoy the show hopes i did it maybe that's

one of the reasons it bothers you as much well

i was hoping they would have done something a

little different with it marvel they're going

to keep playing that card in the films but what

i was hoping for were the early rumors that he

was either going to turn into Ultron or that

he was going to be a life model decoy. So there's

that. Let's see here. We kind of already talked

about... Well, we talked about our first, you

know, the first comic characters that we noticed

that died that really had an effect on us. What

are some of your guys' favorite comic characters

that have stayed dead? There aren't a lot of

comic characters that have stayed dead. The only

three that I can think of are Uncle Ben and the

Waynes. Oh, I've thought of a couple. They really

don't count, though, because they didn't really...

I mean, yeah, they're there for five seconds,

and then they're dead. So, I mean... You know,

I keep coming back and flashbacks and whatnot.

I Think you really need to dig for side characters

and there is there is a Magical way there is

a surefire way of keeping a character dead even

a fairly marquee character But I don't know if

I want to talk about it now or we're gonna come

back to the why editorial killed characters Are

we gonna come back to that topic later the why

they do it? You can talk about it now if you

want All right. Well, all right. So let's see.

Well, first I'll answer your question of like

the favorite character to stay dead permanently.

And the first one I actually thought of after

looking through my own archives was Sarah S.

and Gordon Gordon's wife, who was also a police

officer with the Gotham Police Department. Does

everyone remember how she died? No, no. Oh man,

okay, she died as part of the finale of No Man's

Land, the mega series that went through all the

Batman comics and was recognized through other

DC comics where there was an earthquake in Gotham

and the United States messed Gotham up so badly

that they lost services and the US government

said this is a quagmire. well you know what this

is just not is not part of america anymore have

fun with your mad max universe and so it's look

the gotham gets split up among different territories

among different supervillains and batman and

uh... gotham police department it's really fun

to basically map out what they actually show

you on a map like here's what the gotham please

are department control here's what penguin controls

poison ivy controls the park but over time law

and order eventually start taking over. They

start taking over the different factions and

the Gotham PDs start slowly sliding in. Lex Luthor

actually buys up a lot of land and being the

great guy that he is gives support to the people

of Gotham that got stuck there that couldn't

leave in time. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

I'm sorry, but seriously. Is that all Lex's backup

plan ever is? Hey, I want to go buy land. Yeah.

Like seriously. There's no land east of Gotham

to blow up. So I don't know what his plan was

there or sink into the ocean. But still, he was

going to buy that land and be like, I'm going

to just like, this is a sweet idea. I'm going

to make my own kingdom. And Superman wasn't happy

about it. And part of the big thing was Batman

trying to stop Luther from doing that. But anyway,

eventually, they take out all the factions except

Joker, who never really had his own territory.

He was like just this hobo that would just shank

people and laugh like he didn't give a shit for

a really long time. And then he was like, oh,

wait, this is a really good chance because he

Joker still loved the idea of no man's land.

I mean, no law letting chaos rule. And he wanted

to test the idea of that. Like, how much do you

care about civilization in the land of law and

order? So on Christmas Eve, where the no man's

land proclamation was going to be lifted. Joker

and his goons, including Harley at this time,

this is actually really interesting because Harley

was introduced during this time as a DC character,

but anyway, Harley, Joker, and a lot of his goons

put on this big plan to capture a bunch of babies

while causing a bunch of distractions and they

have to try and find where the babies are because

Joker is going to do something awful when the

clock strikes midnight and at one point Sarah

finds out where the Joker is and I he's actually

like in the basement of the Gotham Police Department

at one of the places at one of the police precincts

and she gets cut off from Gordon and It's a really

tense scene because it's just this she's a capable

one This is we mentioned before the show about

women in refrigerators and trust me if we want

to talk about Characters that stay dead. There's

plenty of superhero girlfriends that just ain't

coming back They had their use and they're done.

But one thing that's great about Sarah Gordon

is that she's a cop and Joker's holding a baby

and he does this speech and he, she says like,

she tries to be a cop, has her gun and tells

them to like put the baby down slowly. He drops

the baby purposefully and she dives for him.

And then while she drops her gun while doing

it. and the Joker caps her right in the head

and kills her. And he just comes right out of

the police department and just admits what he

did in front of a bunch of reporters and police

officers. Gordon is there. He loses it. And it's

one of those few, like, here's the thing. If

you were in D .C., every year, or every, God,

every eight months, they do, should I kill the

Joker? I mean, he just killed 120 orphans, but

I don't know, should I? And it gets more ridiculous

every time. but this was a situation where they

just reclaimed law and order and Joker was testing

Gordon to see how much they cared about those

things and Gordon decided not to kill the even

Batman said if you do it I won't stop you and

it meant so much because Sarah died for that

law and order she died for a child and it meant

just as much to me as like saving the universe

or whatever because this is her doing her job

and following her own principles. The death meant

something and it reverberated through the Batman

stories for quite a while. And she hasn't come

back. In fact, with the DC New 52, her whole

marriage to Gordon was erased. Like she super

died. Her ass does not exist in the new universe.

So I guess she could come back, but right now

she died and then super died. But she's not coming

back, but I would almost be upset if she did.

Her death had real meaning in the DC universe.

Yeah, that's one thing. This isn't necessarily

a comment on comic character death, but this

is one thing about the Gordon family that I just

don't get. You have Barbara Gordon, the wife,

and Barbara Gordon, the daughter. I just don't

get that. Oh, yeah. And at one point, she was

a niece. I mean... It's tough. They spent a lot

of time figuring that one out. Yeah, you know,

you mentioned with the Joker and death and everything

else and we will get to this next month in Batman

Month when we talk about death of the family.

You want to talk about something that is so anti

-climactic. That story is very anti -climactic.

You mean the recent one where he tore off? Yeah.

Oh, I thought that, because that basically made

me realize, oh, this is why I pulled out from

a lot of Batman comics, because they do this

stuff, where they do the thing. If this was just

another story of the month of a six -issue arc,

that's fine. But they were like, this matters,

guys. Like, they were screaming that in interviews.

And it so didn't matter. It so, god damn, did

not matter. And let's not, of course, forget

Dark Knight Returns in the 80s with Batman and

Joker's quote, quote, final battle. That's probably

that's probably that's one of the deaths that

I can't wait to talk about because that is probably

at the time The greatest piece of Batman literature

I ever read Because I didn't know I love how

they say in an alternate universe. No, it's it's

a comic book universe I get it but if Batman

were real and if he was too tired and if Joker

did something so horrific, of course, you know,

he He claims he's rehabilitated and he's on a

talk show and he just kills 300 people and then

he's at a carnival and he's handing out cotton

candy to kids and then he looked down and they're

dead from the poisoned cotton candy and he's

running through the tunnel of love killing people.

You know this time you have to put him down.

Yeah. Oh yeah, one thing that we should mention

is sometimes we get trapped in The dc marvel

dynamic, but there's plenty of characters inside

in independent and third -party comics that no

their deaths often do Are permanent and they

do matter. Oh, yeah I listed a few of those out,

but I can definitely see like within the industry

decide Marvel and dc dominate the idea of death

and it not mattering. So yeah, but I just want

to make that clear I'll tell you one thing that

kind of did matter for me. It was over an idw

the current turtles run. Yeah and how they tell

that backstory. Okay, sure, it's just another

version of another, you know, tale of Shredder

killing Hamato Yoshi's family, but they made

Tang Shen's death matter because it's... Have

you read any of that, Dane, at all? Sadly, I

haven't, but I've heard the series is very good.

Go ahead. It is extremely good. So spoilers for

anyone who has not read the IDW current Teenage

Mutant Ninja Turtles run with Eastman and Waltz

on the writing duties. Splinter and the Turtles

are reincarnated from their past lives. And it's

very, very well done. And they didn't have this

whole monologue of were in the movie, in the

90 film, they were like, oh, you know, Splinter's

like, Oroko Saki and I fought for the love of

a woman. It wasn't that at all, it was. Hamato

Yoshi in the IDW series basically left the Foot

Clan, Saki felt this is a huge dishonorable thing,

and he then went to kill. his entire family because

in the series they have four sons and the sons

are dressed in red orange blue and purple so

you can kind of see which ones turtles end up

being and it's not that the 87 cartoon origin

of oh hey a kid's pet turtles fell down the sewer.

Not that that's bad, but the writing for the

IDW series is so damn good. It's basically a

love letter to every aspect of TMNT. It's so

good. Well, the mirage is even more complicated

because in the mirage... No, no, you're gonna

love... Because in the mirage, it was actually...

It was still that love triangle, but it was actually

Orokosaki's brother. his older brother that was

in love with Tang and what happened was she chose

Yoshi and Saki's brother started to beat Tang

and then Hamada Roshi was filled with rage, killed

Saki's brother and at the funeral Oroko Saki

vows revenge and so Hamada Roshi of course takes

town and they leave to New York to flee because

of shame. So, it got even, you know, it was kind

of like those Saturday afternoon martial arts

movies, you know, you killed my master, now I

want revenge. I think the IDW, though, is a lot

more tighter. Oh, yeah, completely. It is so,

they don't linger on the story. They are telling

one consistent story with different elements

all the way through. I had said on it that...

when i read volume four that uh... that uh...

it was the first time when i read the volume

four which is issues thirteen through sixteen

of the series first time in a long time that

i've seen anything on television film or whatever

else that really deals with abusive families

because in the idw verse casey's dad beats the

crap out of him and Raph and Splinter basically

go save him and basically Casey lives with the

Turtles now. Casey and April actually both live

with the Turtles now in the IDW -ers. Wait, wait.

He lives with them? He's like a roommate to them?

Pretty much, yes. Child Services just doesn't

care? I don't know how... Does he go to school?

Can't go to college? Oh, all right. Music college,

yes. It's just the way it sounds. I mean, your

dad can still beat you when you're older. I don't

deny that. But man, that's just, all right. Yeah,

what happened was that Raph was separated from

the turtles before they officially mutated, so

they kind of spend this time. What happens is

they're starting to mutate. There's this cat

that comes out of nowhere, I think old Hob, and

he grabs Raphael and Splinter, who's starting

to mutate, attacks Hob, and then Raphael goes

away, and he's going through, like, who am I?

What's going on? And in the first issue, they're

trying to, you know, and by they, Splinter and

the Three of the turtles are trying to find Raphael.

So towards the end of issue one, Raphael was

trying to find out who he is, and he overhears

this kid getting beaten by his drunk father.

And you find that in issue two that Casey is

in college, but his father's a drunk because

Casey's mother had cancer. So it's this whole

huge story that you actually care about and feel

for. And also Casey and Raph and the Mirage comics

and the movie, they've always had a bromance,

because Rath is supposed to be this angry young

person, you know, the angry young teenager, so

he can't relate to Leo, Donatello, or Mike, so

that's where Casey comes in. As far as the editorial

stuff, I don't understand why some of these management

people have a hard on to kill certain characters.

Like, I know for a fact that Dio has wanted to

kill Dick Grayson since what? Final Crisis or

something or other? Oh yeah, I mean that was

a last minute decision to not kill him. I mean,

I just don't... I don't understand it. You're

gonna take a character... In my mind, Dick Grayson

is the most relatable DC character to an everyday

person. Dick Grayson and Spider -Man Peter Parker

are pretty much the same guy. Between the two

universes. Of course, they have different aspects

to them because Peter is actually, you know...

got bitten by a radioactive spider and Dick Grayson

got trained by batman so Dick Grayson doesn't

have superpowers but you know what i mean they

are the relatable guys to the every person and

why would you want to get rid of that and that

kind of leads me into um killing them killing

characters just to reboot them i hate this well

okay now when you say reboot them do you mean

to kill them and then resurrect them or to kill

them and put them in an entirely new concept

The yeah, the second one because it's like it

just no Well Let me think about that like there's

There's comic book editorial deaths for a couple

reasons for one. There's just a sign of clearing

the decks This is especially true for team or

family books. This can be true of Batman There

was at one point where Batman editorial especially

toward the late 90s just went like wow batman's

got way too many friends isn't this guy supposed

to be a dark loner let's start killing off like

what's what's this girl robin doing here and

they just started calling things down and what's

funny is it's it's like a sine wave like it always

comes uh back because then god batman uh just

even a year ago had three robins running around

and it was there it was or three people that

had been part of the batman ward system, part

of the Batman adoption agency. Same deal with

Superman at one point. This was before the original

crisis. Superman had super horse, super dog,

super girl, and so many other super characters,

and so many other Kryptonian survivors. They

decided, no, this is making Superman less special.

Let's clear the decks. things of let's revise

the deck, let's reshuffle the deck. When Brian

Michael Bendis first started New Avengers, a

lot of those Avengers started dying very quickly

because it was literally the death of the Avengers,

that's how it was built. And so a lot of these

secondary characters, Scarlet Witch, she went

crazy and caused all this destruction and she

would continue to be crazy for a couple more

years before she died and came back. The Vision,

uh died and then his corpse was ripped apart

by g -hulk it was in a rage it was just very

and this was all because they wanted the avengers

to have more they wanted to have like their jla

they wanted more commercially viable heavy hitters

on the avengers so brian michael bendis was put

on i mean he had a plan for them but it was put

out together through editorial and bryan michael

bendis to wreck this team. I remember Jack of,

what was his name? Jack of Hearts. He died before

the event, in preparation for this. So that's

one reason, Editoric, is simply because they

want to clear the decks for some new opportunities

to tell stories, or to purify the brand. That

sounds almost like Nazi -like tendencies, you

know? Wipe it out, all of them. Yeah. It's kind

of like Optimus in Dark of the Moon. Kill them

all. It's just I I guess my obsession my current

obsession with Dick Grayson Nightwing and Kyle

Higgins writing that story Sure, you know Kyle

wanted to take the character sure, you know Who

is Dick Grayson? He was the first Robin Now he's

Nightwing Kyle was taking that character He still

had the ties to the bat family and Batman and

Bruce and all that stuff and everything else

He still had the similar costume, etc, etc, etc

even though the fans hated that they changed

it to red. I like the red personally, but it's

just one of those things where Kyle had all this

stuff where he was gonna basically make Grayson

his own, have his own future, have his own city,

have his own kind of thing. And all of a sudden

DC's like, yep, nope. Forever Evil, Villains

Takeover, Dick Grayson Dies, Your Series Is Cancelled,

Goodbye! Well... And then they put Kyle on Batman

Eternal, which, you know, I'm very grateful and

very... I'm very happy for Kyle getting the opportunity

to do Batman Eternal, but it just... I don't

know why they edited it. Okay, well no, let's

talk about this. Why would they do that? For

one, if I was to be in the role of an editor...

I would say that editors don't quite know what

to do with Nightwing as a character. Where is

his place in the new 52 DC universe? And plus

they also have to go, where is his marketing

potential? Where is his role? God, they had such

a problem with that with Wonder Woman. They just

basically handed her over and said, just rejigger

everything again. Alright, and she has a home

base. She has the ropes gallery and even that

it's like no redo everything but unfortunately

that she As much as as likeable as a character

of Dick Grayson is likeable people it like let's

take this in a corporate environment Likeable

people who do their jobs. All right get still

get fired. Anyway, they still get laid off That's

where Jason is as a character I've read Nightwing's

stories in the New 52, where it's like, oh look,

the circus is back. and um, he's trying, wasn't

he trying to be a police officer again or something

like that? No, he was going to run Haley's Circus.

Amusement Mile was going to be his, his new version

of Haley's Circus and they were like, oh no,

we can't do that, we're sending you to Chicago

because Tony Zuko is actually alive. Oh yeah,

yeah, I remember that. Which I liked, I liked

that, I liked that an adult Dick Grayson could

go after Zuko and find out, I liked that storyline.

And then basically what Kyle was going to do

after that was basically keep him in Chicago

and explore why Chicago has such a problem with

masked heroes. And that's fine, but think of

it this way. Wow. Think how desperate they must

have been to bust out the Tony Zuko story for

that in order to keep Dick Grayson alive. And

I'm not trying to talk down on that. I'm just

saying, think how badly they must have been hurting

to say like, OK, what's the what are iconic moments

of Dick Grayson we can go toward that outsiders

would know about that might get them interested?

Fucking Zuko, let's bring that back in. And if

that and if that doesn't gain juice for the title,

then I guess it's time to kill him off so we

can recharge so we can then six months later

think of him fondly again. Yeah, because this

happened with Spider -Man. This is happening

with Spider -Man right now. Don't even get me

started. After the Dark Hours arc in Superior,

I stopped reading it because I want to be able

to read it in trade to cover it in the pull bag

later. I'm probably not going to pick up any

of the amazing stuff until it hits trade because

I prefer and that's kind of the direction I'm

taking the pull bag in is we're going to discuss

via trade versus single issue because I just

feel that Discussing it in a trade that comes

out six months down the line I can sit back with

my friends and Relax and go through kind of each

page and talk about each part of the story and

everything else versus sitting here wondering

What okay? That girl number 30 got switched out

for this story and that got delayed that got

pushed back Zero year got pushed back a month

and oh this is coming out now So I would rather

sit back relax and have fun with my friends than

have to worry about When what comic is coming

out to do a single issue review of it to rush

it out to get it out there So yeah, that's more

so the direction that I'm taking the show in

is talking about stuff in trade that way we can

just sit down have fun for 30 minutes to two

and a half hours and just be fine Steve what

are some of your thoughts on the editorial stuff

the the Killing them just to reboot them etc.

Etc. Well, I mean, I think that the death thing

in comics is kind of overrated just for the fact

that For instances look at the pre new 52 you

get They kill Bruce Wayne And then they let him

sit idle for a year like they did during nightfall

essentially except they didn't kill him then

they just injured him and then it was you know

somebody else replacing him in the cowl and then

it eventually ended up being Dick Grayson and

then He comes back a year later takes it back

and then everything was fine again. It's it's

things like that If you're gonna kill him just

kill him But don't keep playing this back and

forth, back and forth, back and forth, especially

with a lead character like that. I can see in

the films doing it one way. And then the comics,

they're just, you know, it's one more story,

one more story. But it's it's it's almost gotten

to the point where it's it's it, you know, wash,

rinse, repeat, you know, repeat. And it's just

it's annoying. I kind of disagree with that,

Steve. I really do. I think that comics, especially

on a meta narrative, like people, unless you

are incredibly new to comics, people are aware

of death and what that means for mainstream comic

book characters. But with Batman dying and just

being actually sent through time to fight cavemen

and being a pirate or whatever, that's fine because

here's what happened. Dick Grayson got to be

Batman. He got to team up with Damien Wayne and

the Batman Robin dynamic got to be reversed.

Batman was now a happy -go -lucky guy that was

able to take on a fatherly role to Damian. And

Bruce was very uncomfortable around Damian for

a long time. It wasn't until he came back that

he actually started becoming truly serious as

a dad. I mean, he was trying before. And Robin

was able to be the bad cop. So here's my point,

is that part... of death these days is experimenting

with death as a ride we take as a comic book

viewing audience where we can take the character

or if not the character then the brand in a direction

we could not take easily with a character we

are super familiar with and to see what can happen

in this new territory yeah and i i agree with

that a little bit see that's the thing like since

i've been reading the new 52 i've said that gracing

is more of a father to davey and then than bruce

ever would be uh... you know you have those little

moments of you know them wanting to play video

games together or them actually having a laugh

where we all know it's very rare that bruce wayne

ever laughs or ever does anything for fun after

all he just can't get past the title of it's

a wonderful life uh... Jeremy, did you have anything

else you wanted to bring up on comic character

deaths? Yeah, here's the thing with both Marvel

and DC that really... Because once in a while...

And again, this is where it becomes conundrum.

When it comes to the comic book characters, who

really makes the character likable? Is it the

writer? when they adapted into a TV series or

a movie does the actor make the character likeable

it's hard to say but and I don't read that many

comics and it's the movies and the TV shows and

the cartoon shows that helped me you know go

back and read them but when it comes to both

Marvel and DC and the Documentaries on the History

Channel about comic book characters and why some

were killed and why eventually they brought back

okay if you want to argue and say that the Sales

where I'm doing too. Well, I'll buy it if you're

doing it because a shock value and I I'm you

know on the fence of that but I have to agree

if Batman is gonna state that you got to pass

the torch and I feel that for argument's sake

with at least with Batman Beyond we know that

Batman is kind of got into the, you know, the

Alfred Pennyworth role. That makes sense. Move

forward instead of keep going backwards. And

I'll even go into the movies. I like the fact

that even though Batman faked his death, Robin

becomes Batman. At least go that way, but if

you keep going, oh, I'm not really dead, no,

just come back. No, it feels like it's a big

middle finger. I like the fact that if you're

dead, then you have to... Roll the dice and whatever

happens Unless it's really pissing a lot of people

off and unless you really you can't second -guess

yourself and go okay I killed this character

fight for why the character has to stay dead

make the character worth it I think the one thing

that's always pissed me off the most and whether

it is the comics or the show When they killed

off Optimus Prime, even in the comics, even with

Marvel, and then in the cartoon when they killed

him, it's like they keep whining about bringing

him back. No, that defeats the whole purpose,

and that's what bothers me. Yeah, it's a good

thing that we did not bring up a certain deal

with the devil, because we'd be here for another

hour on that. Yeah, you know... comic character

deaths understand they're gonna happen but what

jeremy was just saying about that man about not

moving forward and constantly creator not necessarily

creators but editorials going backwards ago this

is exactly why i have a problem with agents of

shield because they're basically just bringing

colson back to do whatever he's going to do and

sure in the case of the avengers it matters his

death matters but i don't know i i'm still waiting

to see captain 2 and we'll we'll go from there

um steve you got any final thoughts on the comic

character death no not really Dane any final

thoughts? Well, yeah two actually one is I think

two other big reasons why character deaths happen

is sometimes It's kind of a weird feeling but

sometimes they get old and I've mentioned it

with like Dick Grayson as a possible Theory of

why they might be killed like it is that I don't

think Dick Grayson's old I just think right now

they don't know how to place him in the current

Directoral in the current editorial direction,

but then there's characters like Barry Allen

who people really liked him when he died, in

Crisis of Infinite Earths. People consider that

really huge, but before that, people did not

really care that much about the Flash. And then

there's things like the death of Kraven the Hunter.

You look at any Top 10 Spider -Man list, and

Kraven's death is gonna be on there, but people

saw Kraven as a joke character before that. And

when Craven came back in the last five or six

years, people were upset that he came back because

his death was done so well, but they forgot why

he died in the first place. Which was because

people stopped giving a shit about them, and

sometimes the best way you can make people start

to remember, you don't know what you have until

it's gone. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but

man, that's really true with comic book character

deaths. And then finally... I just want to say

if you want to make a character die through my

research I found there's a Surefire way to keep

a character dead like I can guarantee you Like

Batman would stay dead if you followed this formula.

Okay, have them die Connected to a social issue

where a real -life event for instance Remember

the 9 -eleven comic in the Marvel comic book

where they all teamed up and dr. Doom shed a

tear for 9 -eleven Yeah, remember that one. How

many superheroes died in that comic? I'm like

What if cloak and dagger if cloak and dagger

just these side characters were in the World

Trade Center buildings? They would not be brought

back They would not be brought back if spider

-man was eating a hot dog at the base of that

and just couldn't dodge the debris He would not

be brought back because it's 9 -eleven man. But

the other thing was That if you have a character

died due to disease like real disease disease

that is in the news a good bit then they're not

coming back like for instance Captain Marvel

as a character they've toyed with people taking

on the mantle or like oh hey it's a clone or

hey it's his nephew but it's never Captain Marvell

because that guy died of cancer while everyone's

by him and his cancer bed saying goodbye and

like that was a Jim Starlin story that was done

with such pathos and sadness that no one like

you would literally have to be like oh yeah cancer

that thing that affects millions of people across

the world yeah this guy that was a clone that

was killed off by cancer even in the marvel universe

where they can cure practically anything you

still can't disrespect that and same deal with

um there was a hulk side character named jim

wilson he died due to aids He contracted HIV

and died of AIDS and Hulk died by his side. And

I'm not saying Jim Wilson's such a critical character,

but he's not coming back. So like just give someone

like some really bad disease that people are

familiar with and they can't come back because

that would just be considered too low class mostly.

Wow. I know that's heavy shit, man, but that's

the only situation where I've seen where characters

like if you gave Oh Christ if if you gave squirrel

girl Okay, like pelvic cancer like stage three

like she ain't coming back from that Like all

those squirrels are gonna be by her in her death,

but going oh god squirrel girl We will miss you.

You were the best of us and it's like she ain't

coming back Is she the cousin to rocket raccoon

rocket raccoon be like well better her than me

man. I got a move I can't be I don't have time

for that shit just And the cancer is the one

villain that Squirrel Girl cannot defeat. Just,

oh, Christ. So I have an idiotic question, though.

Sure. Okay, so we go back to the Waynes for a

minute, because I also remember there was a paperback

I had years ago called Greatest Batman Stories

Ever Told, where the Waynes are dead, and Dr.

Faith comes out of nowhere and says, I'm going

to give you a chance to avenge your parents'

deaths, which Batman does. And... He actually

saves Thomas and Martha from getting killed,

and what happens is the storyline has changed

where he still becomes Batman, but he now becomes

Batman because he was a spoiled brat, and he

felt that if his parents were killed, that's

what, you know, causes all the guilt, but now

that he saves them, he'll still become Batman,

but now he'll be guilt -free, in a way. So my

question is, if they... Because that story's

kind of gotten lost in the shuffle, but if they

ever tried to bring that story back today, do

you think people would come with pitches and,

you know, torches and pitchforks and start going

rabble, rabble, rabble? Yes, because this is

an uncomfortable topic, but people always go

like, oh, comic... The idea of comics that matter,

like what comics matter in the canon, what comics

matter as good stories, what comics matter as

continuity, part of what makes comics matter

is how often they are referenced. You can tell

the most kick -ass Nightwing story in the world,

but if it doesn't get referenced, it will be

forgotten over time. But Batman's parents are

referenced pretty much every comic, like within

the introduction, if that's the format. so because

that is so heavily referenced of their death

and their death causing batman to be batman pursuant

to be batman that yet it would be a problem because

it's so referenced it is the ultimate in mattering

any final thoughts for comic character does jeremy

okay uh... dan where can people interact with

you online if they would like to do so uh...

well seer you can Interact with me on our Punisher

body count Facebook fan page. We also have a

website Punisher body count comm the world's

best podcast for all things Punisher with my

co -host Jake and I Yes, the Dick Grayson of

the Marvel universe. Yes. Oh, yes delightful

Also, we have another side podcast called Dane

and Jake get classy which Which the title pretty

much jinxed us, because now Jake's wonderful

wife Emily is a co -host, who's an artist, so

she has a wonderful art perspective. But you

know what? The brand's already there, Emily.

Too bad. Can't get in on that action now. Too

bad. Wow. What about you, Jeremy? Hunnic Outcast

podcast, and next month, because Godzilla's gonna

be stomping his way back, Matthew Broderick free,

I might add. and Dean Devlin and Rowland Emmerich

Free, I might add as well. Hunter Cowcast podcast

is going to be having a Godzilla week and possibly

even a Godzilla month while we discussing Godzilla

rules of Earth and a few of the better Godzilla

movies, especially... I will be talking about

Godzilla 98 because it had come out in May, but

it's gonna be a challenge on that one. That's

a lot of fish, am I right? Yeah, that's a lot

of poppity poppop, yeah. And also, since I've

of course been hearing the rumors about Batman

66, the TV show coming, I have taped the episodes.

off of tv free you know years and years ago so

i'd be starting to discuss batman sixty -six

tv show and uh... i'd also will be discussing

my top thirty seven uh... disney villains which

will be interesting so i have a couple interesting

hannuk outcast podcast episodes that'll be uh...

rearing their heads down uh... well As usual,

I have Altered Geek coming out. I have Future

Imperfect and many other things going on. You

can reach me on Twitter at SCP -21. Alright,

that's gonna do it for this episode of The Pull

Bag. I have no idea what's coming next. Make

your greatest get into comics and we will catch

you next time. Hey GeekCast listeners, do you

ever listen to Punisher Body Count and think

to yourself, this show would be awesome if it

had less toilet humor and was not about the Punisher?

If so, join me, Emily Williams, as I class up

the Punisher guys on Dane and Jake at Classy,

or like the Oprah Book Club with comics. You'll

hear us discuss famous works like The Dark Knight

Returns and The Grove, along with graphic novels

no one else is talking about, like Blue Monday

and Blankets. You can find us at danajkclassy

.wordpress .com or on iTunes. You can rate our

show on iTunes. Be sure to leave us feedback.

Call the voicemail line 502 -526 -5821. Please

remember to tell us the show you are leaving

a message for and your name. Become a fan of

us on Facebook by searching Geekcast Radio Network.

Send us an email feedback at geekcastradio .com.

Follow us on Twitter at Geekcast Radio. So until

next time, make your great escape into comics,

and unleash the geek in you.