Greg Rucka’s The Punisher: Volume 3

You know what I think is funny I've been watching

Highlander here recently and like how watered

down that is and I'm like Fuck if this was on

here today, they would actually show the beheadings.

Can you answer me one question? Yeah Where the

fuck does Duncan put the fucking sword? When

he puts it away does anyone know? No, no one

knows it's kind of like Optimus Prime's trailer

Ryan There's a magic dimension that holds Optimus

Prime's trailer. Actually, yeah, maybe Duncan

just has the Punisher's trench coat from when

he was an angel. Oh my god. Welcome to The Pull

Bag. Join us as we dig out our latest comics

and discuss them with a rotating panel of the

GCRN crew. So sit back and enjoy. This week's

Pull Bag. Hello and welcome to The Pull Bag,

which is still the Punisher Bag. This is episode

47. I am your host, TFG and Mike. Joining me

is Ryan the Uneven Flow. Hello. Hello. I can't

believe we've recorded like six episodes in one

day. Okay, Ferris Canada. Alright, also joining

us is the Punisher Body Count crew of Jake and

Dane. Hey guys. Hey there. What's up, G? Not

much, not much. All right, so we are nearly done.

We have basically two, well three, I actually

added one in, I had to, since Trial of the Punisher

came out before we... finished up the recording

sessions on these episodes i added that in so

that'll be episode forty nine with ryan and i

doing our coverage to know you guys are going

to do your own coverage of it on punisher body

count yeah well we did our own coverage of born

but it's nice to revisit it too well right but

how long ago was that uh... not that long ago

actually yeah it wasn't like the first episode

or anything there was no i wouldn't did we cover

that that was that was probably in spring of

this year yeah yeah we did it when I think we

did it whenever I don't know it doesn't matter

yeah so we've also covered all of the ruckabook

so fuck it and interviewed the writers and yet

we are here yeah this is really interesting which

by the time the people here episode 49 I will

have listened to that interview because I didn't

want to listen to it until I finished reading

the damn book, you know That's actually pretty

wise and I would advise if anyone's actually

interested in reading the books and interested

in hearing our interview with Rukka, which I'm

gonna You know give myself a reach around but

I think it was pretty good It was very intellectual

and very in -depth, but it's also extremely spoiler

rific. So you definitely want to Read the story

if you want to read it before you check out the

podcast, the interview. Yeah, exactly. All right.

So, Ryan, give us the rundown on volume three.

Stuff happens. There we go. I'm done. Funny.

Give us the - No, really though. Stuff actually

happens. That's when one of the complaints about

the Rukka books and all of a sudden, really a

lot of it is because - Of a sped -up timetable

because we found out the series was ending but

I mean the other half of it was this is roughly

What Rucka had planned for the most part for

the character anyway? But yeah, we get some things

sort of sped up. So yeah, we're starting with

volume 3 which is the end of Rucka's run. It's

11 through till issue 11 through till the end

11 is Weird issue. It's almost a throwaway wasn't

Marvel doing like some sort of zombies month

or something. I Don't even remember anymore.

I don't think it was throwaway It wasn't because

we've got more of the police point of view. It's

just I mean it might it might have tied in with

the zombie theme that Marvel was doing but At

least an issue 11, which I guess would be the

first issue in the trade is that What's his name

a bolt he has to? Come to account because remember

in the last trade that Ozzie told him that his

secret rendezvous with the Punisher is is over

and that he has to be on this On the level base

side of the law and not on the side of yeah,

he's got to be on the level So this is him coming

to account But it's via, there's another weird,

crazy shit thing going on in New York. And so

he's being interviewed again by internal affairs

or whatever. And then he decides to come clean

with the events that happened in the very first

issue, which is where his partner died. And he

claimed to have killed all those, uh, all those

copos, but in fact, it was Punisher. So he, it's

coming to account and we just happen to have

this, uh, Zombie guy. I can't remember the villains

name even anymore and I'm looking through trying

to find it now, but yeah He was a B level guy

that fought the Avengers like years ago. He is

actually a an existing Villain well Dana and

I had this theory there was this Punisher story

black talent. There we go. Yeah black town There

was this Punisher story way back when that Mike

needs to read called die hard in the big easy

and there's a voodoo witch doctor that Buries

Frank alive in a in a coffin and puts chicken

blood all over him I was convinced that and throws

the dead chicken in there with them. That's key

to this He throws the chicken in there with him

And buries him because it's part of some voodoo

ritual too I think it was to make him a zombie

slave or something like that. It was make him

an undead slave Yeah, and it was just so ridiculous

not knocking the voodoo culture could be it could

be worse They could have tried to make him an

angel. Yeah Wait the Punisher is the devil he

doesn't make deals with himself That's right.

All I know is that diehard in the big easy was

a cross between HBO's trim a and true blood Lord

so yeah, we actually kind of touched on issue

11 a little bit in an earlier one I mean my favorite

bit about it was bolts talking about You know

the police are talking to him saying like oh

the you know The Punisher has no problem shooting

around shooting around innocence and bolt sort

of clarifies it by telling him like yeah Because

he never misses it's not because he doesn't care

about people He's got the he has the accuracy

of the saying of killers pretty much Well, yeah,

that was fun, too. Like I said in an earlier

one, I had the chance to talk to Ennis and I

flat out said to him, so, you know, everybody's

said this before, but I get to actually ask you,

saying a killer's is the punisher. Right. And

yeah. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, that was his

trial run of writing for Frank Castle. And I

think everybody knew that. But anyway. Well,

Ryan, to follow up on what you said, what you

and Jake were talking about. I feel that these

issues, I mean the whole run really, but these

issues really start zeroing in on what Greg Rucka

believes it takes to be the Punisher. And one

of the prerequisites is that if you're gonna

be this kind of unstoppable vigilante, then even

in the middle of Times Square, where you get

such a population density, in a zombie invasion

you're not allowed to kill one innocent. You're

not allowed to nick one child. And that's definitely...

shown here they they they make reference to it

what i mean he's shooting at extremely close

range to so it is uh... at least somewhat plausible

it's not sort of the typical superhuman actually

the other thing about the look at how they demonstrate

or how uh... in his third i think it's near uh...

rocker demonstrates how great of a shot is even

in this medium like he shows Frank just hit like

four zombies in a row one panel just boom boom

boom right in the temples right right between

the eyes and then they show bolt trying to do

the same thing and like he shoots in between

a pedestrian and a zombie he hits the zombie

like in the shoulders and he's just sucking it

up and it's really surprising How well he got

that point across in this medium, you know what

I'm saying? Something like that would be better

in a movie, but really drove it home in this

static medium. Yeah, I mean, both looks like.

Hate to say this but he doesn't look like a detective.

He looks like a rookie cop Well, it's more or

less what he is. I think that's the point of

Yeah, he rose because of the incident at the

school and it's made clear that that's one of

the things he that's why he's kind of the you

know, he's the cop du jour that every the young

rookie who's looking great and the reason he

looks great is because yeah, he has help or had

help on panel because you know, he's being For

this whole zombie incident, he's being interrogated

by Internal Affairs. And they're ready to, well,

the guy who's investigating wants to, you know,

throw. Home away and lock and there's lock him

up and throw away the key for lying about the

school shooting incident But the upper brass

is like dude. This guy's a superstar. He's getting

good press. He's like a local hero Let me delete

this Interrogation and give him his badge back.

That's yes And you mentioned that I will not

you sorry your partner mentioned your bolt to

your new so anyway Mentioned that this whole

run sort of encapsulates Rucka's idea of what

it takes to be this person. Issue 12 is where

Frank A speaks the most, more than he has in

a long time, I think really in any comic. It's

been a while since he spoke out loud that much

and he gets his the dead can't be distracted

speech. To Rachel in that issue and it's also

I mean in terms of you know people pick on this

run because not a lot happens a lot of the time

which is a fair criticism but man a ton happens

in that issue and we get You know the knockdown

drag -out fight between him and Rachel which

is actually really well done Yeah, it is the

it is the exact moment where Frank keeps telling

Rachel to put on the glasses and she refuses

to put on the glasses They continue to fight

actually you know what it's really like and I

this might be a little too deep but think about

Frank and Rachel as being either drug addicts

or alcoholics right Frank has already hit bottom

he already knows what it means to live the life

that you know he wants to live and that's taken

him you know years of character development and

this sort of thing res this might as well be

you know, Rachel, I took my husband's name Alves

like year one. I mean, that might as well be

the title of this run. So she hasn't hit bottom.

She doesn't know what it means to be on mission

24 hours a day, seven days a week. And she's

really grappling with it. And I think there's

a lot of culture shock, you know, coming along

with this new lifestyle that, you know, hits.

You know comes to a head and then I don't know

if Frank's a particularly patient guy So he's

just like, you know, he it ain't it's encapsulated

in that one line get your shit together Marine

Yeah, well, let me ask you guys when is this

like Is this supposed to be like five six seven

eight nine ten years after? Frank's family was

killed like how long after that does this story

happen? I know it's a good estimate Yeah, I always

imagined it um Closer to a decade either like

give or take two years or so Yeah, that's a good

two years before or after a decade. You know,

that's that's how I see it Well, there's a line

there's a line in war zone from I think Is it

spider -man or cap? I can't remember but somebody

mentions that yeah, he's been at this forever

Yeah, I mean there is kind of that meta commentary

where it's like come on we know He's been at

this for like 300 issues. Yeah since 19 since

the 70s. Yes 76 or 75 whichever one it was but

well why I asked that is because That's what

this part of the run seems like it seems like

he's been doing this forever and we'll get to

that, you know next next time with warzone, but

She's just getting started true. Yeah, exactly

and that's what it is I mean she doesn't know

what it takes to be the Punisher basically and

Just just her ideals are clash and what she thought

it was going to be like is clashing with the

reality But to give the listeners a little further

of a sense of what's going on in this trade is

that you know, we have this zombie guy and you

got the shooting with bolt and now Frank and

Rachel are about to stick it to the exchange

once and for all and They basically planned this

massive Oceans 11 type scheme where they steal

adamantium and this sort of thing and then they

bust into the exchanges start tower analog and

Ship goes down Which by the way to tie into war

zone? Frank uses one of spider -man's web shooters

to get into to get into the exchanges building,

which is what a it was a really nice panel. But

B, that's sort of what draws the Avengers attention.

We'll get to in in war zone. Isn't that funny?

Doesn't that make the Avengers seem really petty?

Like Spider -Man's like, listen, guys, I know

he's a mass murderer. We have spider. It makes

Spider -Man seem petty. And it's actually fair

because I mean, he's angry because Frank is using

something he made to to murder. Yeah. When he

is dead setting actually not only not only does

he use spider -man's web shooters But he uses

doc doc ox adamantium arm to make bullets. So

that's like a twofer But do you really think

Doc Ock would be really upset? No, but spider

-man's upset that he's using his archenemies

technology to kill and as a lure too because

they yeah uses it to you know get Rachel into

the building but My question is if Frank Castle

just used like, um a repel line or he just swung

in there Like tarzan which spider -man have even

gotten involved but now because he's webbing.

He's like this man this maniac. He's gone too

far I have that digit. Yeah, you nailed it dane.

So yeah, so I mean the heck with format for a

bit here, uh, just going forward then Expanding

on things. I mean in the end they get into the

exchanges main building and start offing their

leadership and What ends up happening is the

other leader the male of the crew? You're talking

about Paulson. Yeah, Paulson Watches as basically

the woman he's in love with gets her throat,

you know the Baroness Yeah, gets worked over

from Rachel. Yeah, for the record, the people

we're talking about, Stephanie Gerard, she worked

for AIM and Chris Paulson used to work for SHIELD

and together they made the exchange. They're

the main two that Rachel wants to off. Yes, right.

Because they're responsible for killing her family.

Yes. Sort of. It's sort of like on a corporate

level, like if. If mobile Exxon poisons your

well, is it really the CEO's fault or is it that

manager's fault that wasn't looking at EPA regulations?

Because they even say like, yo, that wasn't me.

That was one of our grunts. But, you know, you

could have walked away from this. I always felt

like that was a very interesting thing because

they probably, you know, they're not super sorry

about it, but technically they are right. They

don't they weren't mind controlling. one of their

grunts that guy just made a bad move well it's

not like they they also didn't cut them loose

basically when it happened either they didn't

you know condemn it's a shitload of money to

go away quietly and then of course the and then

of course the other issue is to somebody like

frank uh that doesn't matter that it was just

one guy and he wasn't necessarily acting on their

orders No, and in the end they created the environment

for this kind of violence So yes, they are ultimately

culpable, but I did think that was a pretty interesting

idea It's sort of the banality of evil situation

like these people were not mustache twirling

going like I hate weddings No, they honestly

didn't have any direct that would have been outstanding

so We'd have a criterion version of This five

stars already, but if they had had that I would

give it a ten out of five. That would be amazing

So, I mean pulse Mike would have been like welcome

to the pullback which has become the Punisher

bag There would be like five stars move on next

step hundred stars. That's the issue ever See

a Polson Seized your art killed and just kind

of goes nuts and calls the police in and then

starts You know, he calls the police and says

the Punisher is murdering civilians and then

he starts killing civilians and police That's

pretty smart that was yeah, that was really smart

what I love about this trade is Some of the art

in this is amazing. I mean, yeah Marco most of

it is but like just the way that certain angles

are taken the way that certain things look as

far as the story goes though i mean that was

a really really screwed up great way to basically

turn the tails on the punisher yeah and in the

end i mean it's dark and everything frank ends

up killing polson but nobody else can see it

because they're surrounded with tear gas and

everybody's in masks and so everyone's just sort

of moving around but I mean Frank's able to single

him out and in the end Rachel shoots what she

thinks is Poulsen coming for her but unfortunately

she shoots and kills Detective Bolt. That's kind

of said because I liked him he was kind of cool

and this leads into issue 16 Which is the finale

for Rucka and in terms of story? I mean what

we get there is the police are now all out after

both Frank and Rachel who decide to split up

in an effort to To you know keep from both of

them getting caught in the same place etc etc

and I did not see what ends up happening coming

at all. And, spoiler alert, just like everything

else we've talked about, Rachel attempts to give

herself up, feeling guilty that she killed Bolt.

And a couple things happen here. One, my favorite

line from Frank, as Rachel is sort of pouring

her soul out and essentially tells Frank that

he needs to kill her because she's a murderer.

And that's what he does and you know as she's

pouring her soul out. She has the line I thought

I could be like you be precise and cold and dead

and pure But no one can be like you and I love

Frank's line of self -awareness when he just

says Rachel. No one should be like me Yeah, that

was awesome. He knows what he is and where he

is And oh sorry good. No, I just want to say

I felt like that was uh on a on a written level

that was really That was a very nice turn to

the whole analysis of Frank Castle because really

this whole point Up to this point Anytime anyone

ever talks about Frank Castle like especially

with Paulson I like this is a really minor but

I really loved when they're setting up that whole

trap with Doc Ock's arm and they're gonna sell

it back to them and pulse and the in Gerard The

woman in charge says like yeah, we'll do this.

I mean we'll follow their quote -unquote trap

This will be perfect for us to kill them and

Paulson just ramps us No, I don't think you really

get who you're dealing with here. You cannot

play on Frank's level. You're gonna get screwed

Please do not do this you or you do not know

who you're messing with and every time they talk

about Frank it's on that level like this is you

cannot be as Alpha male or alpha person in general

as Frank, but then finally Greg Ruckus says But

would you really want to be and that's what I

really enjoyed about all this think of what it's

not just what he has But it's also what he's

given up up to this point as well. That makes

him the Punisher Yeah, he has no life and I mean,

it's weird that it's weird to see on your boards

and other places people saying that they don't

like that and us and co Since then have removed

the Punisher being a hero He's really not a hero.

I Mean he has no life outside of murder and the

absolute worst that society has to offer His

life is terrible. I mean, you know, you know

he the Punisher works and the reason why some

people would consider him a hero is because Mostly

Punisher fans, but people in general want to

see justice when someone is done wrong, they

want to see justice done. And unfortunately,

at least in a I mean, in most first world countries,

including Canada, I'm not trying to be. Here

we go. Yeah. But like in the American system,

the Constitution and laws are made to protect

the criminal. As weird as that sounds, I mean,

we think it's important to have rights and this

sort of thing because it's better to let a guilty

person go than to put an innocent person away.

I mean, that's what our justice system is based

on. But sometimes when the person who is clearly

guilty, like it's an open and shut case, gets

off on a technicality or is above the law because

they have money or influence or whatever, people

have this urge to see extrajudicial Justice done

and I think that's what resonates with people

who are fans of the Punisher that He's gonna

do what the law is inadequate to do because the

law is designed to protect criminals in its most

pure form Yeah, and I'm not sure if that's heroism

and I mean his reasons for doing it We've talked

about this a couple times his reasons for doing

this I mean, it varies from writer to writer,

but it's rarely because he wants to help people.

He's just not a cuddly, happy character. No,

not at all. Despite what his merchandising might

lead you to believe. Well, Dane and I were actually

discussing an issue back in July where Frank,

you know rescues this little hip -hop kid who's

burning flags. Oh, yeah Frank rescues But it

wasn't like it was his primary intention and

Frank kept giving him these lectures about going

to college and making something of his life But

then when Frank has a pile of cash that he could

give to this poor kid So that way he could make

something of his life like he throws it at guys

to keep him distracted It's you know in anything

even the guys who write Frank as more a version

of his earlier self of The 80s sort of style.

He's still not heroic. I mean the Nightmare trade

or series kind of brought Frank back to this

80s version in a lot of ways But he still does

nothing in that to really help people. He just

he sees a case. That's like him and decides.

Well, everybody has to die There there was um

goodness. I think it was a short at Chuck Dixon

comic in those back -to -school anthologies That

came out and it was really interesting Jake I'll

be surprised if you can't even remember it but

it was about and not an offensive way I just

mean like it was a while ago, but it was like

it was basically this guy that looked like Alan

Moore, and he controlled this whole sewer tribe

of people. Oh, no, I totally remember that. I

remember that as well, yeah. Yeah, and they got

and the big thing was that eventually Frank was

in there. I think he took a wrong turn in Albuquerque

or something, but they try and make them have

some kind of sewer fight with their big sack

of meat and the big sack of meat dies. And then

the. The Alan Moore guy loses his power and he

gets overthrown people goes like but we're still

in a real shitty situation And they want him

to be the leader yeah, they want him to be king

and Frank just goes nope and he just Like these

people are still living like basically in Jurassic

Park without the dinosaurs and no one cares.

Yeah So, where were we again? Oh, right, back

to the end. We're basically just discussing all

the classic examples of how Frank is not a hero.

And actually that does tie into this because

what he does, what ends up happening in this

is really surprising to me because, I mean, Frank,

in the end, Rachel's being hunted by the police

as well as Frank. and she ends up trying to give

herself up. And what she attempts to do is she

points a gun at Bolt in the hope of essentially

suicide by cop. What she doesn't know is that

Frank's well aware of all this and takes out

all of the snipers and has removed the firing

pins from her gun. And so he leaves her to sort

of live with it, which is surprising for him

i mean traditionally there's a lot of me and

i mean rocket talked about this in interviews

that expected that he would kill rachel i thought

i was positive he was going to kill yeah i'd

die expected as well too because that's what

he does especially lately i thought it would

be more like the comic book answer to that problem

like all men Will he or won't he kill that person

that person just goes like, you know what screw

you and they just impale themselves I honestly

thought that's what that's what she tried to

do. Yeah, absolutely. I also thought oh, this

is the direction We're going instead of making

the main character make a choice The the side

character is gonna do it for them and that's

a very comic books And yeah, and it's the surprising

thing is the main character does make a choice

But it's the complete opposite of the choice.

He always makes yeah And it was me. I thought

it was. I thought it was going to go in a different

direction because it actually reminded me. I

don't. Sadly, I think it was. I know it was one

of your all's group members. I think it was a

stone, but I could be wrong. Someone asked us,

do we think Frank could ever be in another relationship

or have a love interest? And after reading this

run, I almost thought that. the two of them,

he and Rachel weren't gonna go off, not necessarily

go off and get married, but because of where

they both come from, even though he's far deeper

than she is, I thought they were gonna end up

together, honestly. And then I was thrown for

a loop at the end. Frank's speech, or her speech

to Frank, and then him just saying, no one should

be like me, kind of shows that he knows that

there's nothing there. There's very little humanity

left to him, but having said that he still saves

her which was really surprising The thing with

Ruck is he just doesn't take the low -hanging

fruit Which is by having Punisher and Alves get

together would have been the low -hanging Or

having him an offer would have been the easy

thing to do and just say like oh, he's the Punisher

She did something wrong. So he's just gonna kill

her Yeah, and you could see it a couple different

ways like maybe this is his way of saving her

or maybe this is his way of punishing her or

maybe it's both because you know, she still has

this she still has to serve for her crimes and

honestly, I feel like we'll get in the war zone

next episode, but I almost feel like war zone

is I to me if this was the last we got of of

Ruckus Punisher, I would have been okay. I felt

like this had a real strong ending, and it had

something that was a bit open -ended, but something

where I was okay by it. What happens to Rachel?

I don't know. That's okay. I think Warzone still

works really well, but my issue with it is it

happened too soon after this. It's clear that

this wasn't meant to be the last issue of the

run. And yeah, it's clear because of war zone

though. There should have been more time that

passed now I can't hold that against Rucka. I

mean he had to He had to wrap up what he was

planning to do in roughly another 16 or so more

issues in In a four -issue miniseries five five

whoops to two comments about Rucka here first

of all before I forget it even rucka thought

that Rachel died at the end and it wasn't until

he thought about it a little bit more and into

the writing process that he was like no she gets

to live after all and he came out with some pretty

good reasoning for it but also what do you guys

think about this let me throw a hypothetical

out there if rucka if his style was a little

bit different if he could just compress his story

just a little bit more Do you think this would

have took off like this his run? Do you think

it would have lasted a lot longer? I hate to

say it, but I'm not sure anything saves this

run and it's not necessarily his fault I mean

if you look at the reviews this series ran was

runner -up for the Eisner for best new series

Yeah, people was very well reviewed phenomenally.

The only reason it lost was Mark Wade's daredevil

Oh, yeah, this thing was phenomenally reviewed

everywhere And the people who read it loved it.

Just not enough people read it period and it

still does well enough on trades It just it just

didn't you know what the main issue is. It's

not It's not suitable for the way the comic book

market is right now Maybe if it was just in another

another event or so, but you know given what

we're given I almost see it as Like certain TV

shows like man, I wish certain TV shows went

longer than they did but Marvel's credit they

actually They also did this with remainders run

as well with what was it? Something something

blood in the in the blood. Yeah At least they

let rucka tie stuff up They didn't like throw

in some pinch hitter at the end till I do some

odd Odd the end or anything like that. They actually

did let Rukka put an end to Frank's story, especially

with Warzone. As much as I hate to say it too,

this is a discussion maybe we should all get

together about someday as to whether or not the

character still works because another sort of

thing that's been forgotten about, you mentioned

that this, the way Rukka writes isn't necessarily

suited to the comics industry now. None of Rukka's

series Of the Punisher like no individual issues

really did all that well, so people didn't even

really try it That well yes, that's a problem.

Let me ask you guys this do you guys think that's

because of oh? It's the Punisher. He's bad because

he kills people now. Don't get me wrong. I'm

not saying that because I don't I think that's

right I'm saying that because that's the discussion

I think we should maybe try to have some time

all together to try to figure that out He's you

want to know why he's tanking. It's be in my

opinion. It's because he's not getting any Good

exposure another medium He hasn't had a good

movie come out, he hasn't had a good TV show,

hasn't had a good crossover in any of the movies.

Wade's Daredevil survived quite some time, although

Daredevil is a little different. He had a run

that a lot of people, if you talk about the best

superheroes of all time, he has a run most people

put on there. The Punisher's not really a superhero,

so the only time he kind of shows up is when

people are doing the top lists of trades. Pretty

much everyone will have, welcome back Frank.

And what I love now is ... both air and and some

of uh... and this is max stuff is showing up

on those lists but he doesn't have that single

sort of defining superhero moments like frank

miller's daredevil run you know A lot of ways

Marvel could sustain daredevil forever based

on that run That's kind of like the quintessential

same with Batman and a lot of the classic stuff

It doesn't matter if Batman has you know crap

for ten years People still think like man that

you you know, whatever they love year one welcome

or welcome back Frank. Yeah, let's try that again

dark night returns or long Halloween or whatever

like one of the quintessential trades people

have good memories about that or that so I don't

know. You know you guys are mentioning that okay

Frank hasn't had a TV series or anything like

that now that you mentioned that the funny thing

is I can so see him showing up I don't think

he will but I would love to see him show up in

Agents of Shield and kill that entire team. I

feel like that would be a season four type of

thing where I like they just go like who could

we bring in that wouldn't mess up with trademark

too much oh this guy All right special guest

star in the anti -hero bringing the mass murderer.

Yeah last unfortunately last I had heard from

people closer to it. There's no chance of him

appearing and that's because of who sort of runs

the The show slash the Marvel you he's hurt badly

by the fact that you know, Whedon's not a fan

at all, which saw man. That's too bad but you

know as far as this trade goes as far as volume

3 I I really enjoyed it, I liked it, the story

was amazing, the art was really good. I honestly,

and we'll get into this next time in episode

48, but I honestly wish this was the end of the

run. Because I was, and I'll reveal this next

week, but Warzone... I don't war zone makes a

good if you look at it in the lens of it's an

epilogue and not really a sequel I think which

is what it was meant as I Looked at it as a continuation

of volume 3. I looked at it as the story continues

Yeah, I never looked at it as a sequel. It's

more of a standalone. Oh, hey in a lot of ways

The problem is the end of volume 3 has, you know,

the fact that Frank let her live. I'm just gonna

go ahead and get this out of the way now since

we're not gonna be able to wait until next time

for 48, but the way that Warzone ends is basically

the Punisherettes in LA. And I'm like, wait,

that's it? That's how you end this run? I prefer

the ending in volume 3 over the ending in Warzone.

I have no issue with it because of how it gets

there, and I guess this is something we'll just

save for then. Sure. And also, to be fair, there's

two things I will mention that are going to significantly

increase my score for Warzone. The cover to issue

4 with Frank tossing the Avengers in a grave.

Yes, that is amazing. I Love that that might

be one of my all -time favorite pieces of art

And then issue four and five with him versus

the Avengers That is fantastic Yeah, that was

that was really I could watch that for days and

not in it or read that for over and over for

days And I mean and he doesn't do it in sort

of the Batman fashion either Yeah, it's not depicted

unrealistically. He's able to keep them engaged

for like a couple minutes Which is amazing in

and of itself, but it's not fake Yeah out of

all the I don't know how much I want to talk

about this now, but out of all the hey It's the

title of my book. So I'm gonna win situations

This one felt the less the least strained yeah

it was one of the better ones yeah all right

let's just save it for the other one all right

hey can i bring up something quick what well

all right no all right shut up everybody shut

the hell up all right really quick i want to

bring up the covers in this because the covers

are amazing i think my favorites are 13 and 16

um I really, really dug those. I also like 14

because that's the actual cover of the trade,

but I didn't... Yeah, for anyone who doesn't

have it, first of all, 12 is another nice one.

That is the shot of a very bloody Frank with

window or pieces of shards of glass in his arm

holding an assault rifle, just sort of like in

a subway or something like that. And yeah, the

artwork on his arm might be a little bit off.

but and it still looks good 13 is the shot of

Frank shooting and Rachel in the background with

the skull also in the background, you know, which

I like and then One of the most reused covers

I think yeah was 16 that if I remember right

is the white the all -white skull around and

just a river of blood coming from Frank and Rachel

Yeah I love that cover. Which, yeah, is a gorgeous

cover. That cover and the cover for 14, which

is Frank in the background and Rachel going all

Hawkeye style on people. Those are the two that

are used on the trade as well. The front is 14

and then the back is 16. It's 16, yeah. Issue

11, that's just, I don't know. Maybe it's the

style of how the skull is done on his shirt.

I just didn't care for it. Oh, the cover, yeah.

Yeah, the cover 211. Yeah, how the eye slots

are kind of open -ended on the edges there. That

was a cover by Hitch, I believe. Well, they did

a couple of these, but I'm looking at Hitch's

cover. Yeah. Yeah, but of course, that was one

of their trying to beat big selling points, especially

in the beginning, was the Brian Hitch artwork.

But honestly, any time... But at any time the

main art artist Marco Chichetto did the covers

I felt man Yeah, that's the thing I wanted to

mention too is 12 to 14 the ones we mentioned

we loved and 16 all Marco Chichetto again Who

was the artist through the majority of this run

every single time? We said man the art in this

book is really good He might be one of the most

underrated artists out there right now. Yeah,

and I mentioned I loved the cover at issue four

of Warzone. Juchetto did the covers to Warzone

as well, all of which are also awesome. I mean,

he is fantastic, and I agree. His work on Spider

-Man and some of the other series that he's done,

I don't know if he's necessarily underrated.

I think people have noticed him now. It's just

he doesn't... Work an awful lot and I know part

of that's because he's had a lot of personal

Illnesses and other problems and things in the

last couple of years, which is really unfortunate,

but he's a phenomenal artist I wanted to add

something to the like what could have kept Frank

Castle title going back when we were talking

about that we talked about the market but I think

there's another element and it's weird because

the The name Superman kept coming my head during

that conversation One sec. Oh Oh, yeah, you just

showed me the rating system like no, I'm pretty

familiar with it by now Thanks. Thanks for distracting

him in the middle of his thoughts Mike Superman

like how people like I'm talking about the general

public here because on some level if you want

the Punisher I think has a steady stream of Roughly

20 ,000 people that always makes at least a reboot

or a renumbering worth it But then you have to

get that extra 20 to 30 thousand people to care

and when you ever try and break out of comics

You need to get a couple million to care and

that's always been the issue With Frank Castle.

I thought that's and I think that was kind of

the point. I mean you put the point a little

more elegant than I was able to, but I think

that's what I meant. I thought that to get that

break out, I thought he had to have some. a better

representation in other media, but go ahead with

your point. My issue is that is exactly how people

are like with Superman. What I mean by that is

Superman has a hardcore collection of fans that

will buy his comics, any kind of collectible

figurine that comes out of them. But here's the

thing, millions of people, now obviously there's

not like... like the Punisher is not like Spider

-Man or Superman where like a kid in Pakistan

living in a cave knows who Spider -Man is like

this Punisher doesn't have that level of appeal

but a lot of people do know who the Punisher

is and they like his look they like his deal

they just don't want to support the character

personally and I feel that that's a that's a

very odd position for a property to be in With

with any type of company, which is just like

Superman because even that man of steel movie

it did Okay, it made a profit, but it did not

do Batman money. It did not even do I believe

that new spider that rebooted spider -man money

like proportion to proportion to the budget and

That's troubling for DC It's a similar issue

with Marvel like people know who the Punisher

is people like buying Punisher merchandise But

they can't seem to get people to have that kind

of Connection with the character as they could

with spider -man or even Captain America And

it's interesting to note to that the I go a little

further with this with the Superman analogy When's

the last time superman's had a really good trade

or story? Yeah, God. I mean everyone likes to

point to oh, there's alternate reality stuff

like red Sun was solid years ago But I mean really

there has not been a good years ago. The people

kept praising all -star Superman sure Alternate

reality again though in a lot of ways. It's not

it is not the base universe Do know most recently

Dark Knight over Metropolis came out Okay, well

I mean out of like the DC new 52 stuff and first

of all, I mean man DC has lost like an awful

lot of goodwill with with some of those but I

mean It's just... I don't know. I haven't been

reading a lot of the Superman stuff. It hasn't

been good. Well, it's not even that. I like the

character, but I like him more so in visual medium

and not comics. I like him more like TV shows

or movies or whatever else. And I don't know.

Honestly, Batman's more popular. He's a better

character, but correct me if I'm wrong. Punisher

the majority of the money that Punisher makes

like as an intellectual property is almost entirely

emerge right like 90 maybe 90 10 Percentage wise.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I mean these

trades sell well Ruckus stuff has actually sold

quite well in trade. But yeah, it's just Yeah,

because I mean, I don't know what Superman has

for merch, but I mean you can buy Punisher skull

Glock back straps you can buy You know 10 million

different Punisher baseball caps, you know At

least here in Indianapolis like I can't really

go out in public without seeing at least one

person Anytime sure. Well, this is something.

Yeah, this has been Halloween, of course. Well

sure I haven't I Wasn't at a single Halloween

party this year where I didn't see the shirt

or the skull so Yeah, that's also true, I mean

that's interesting I never thought to try to

like compare the numbers I realize in terms of

merchandise Batman moves more than anyone else

in DC I'd expect Superman moves a lot, but I

mean people forget the Punisher moves a lot of

merchandise ie I bet Punisher moves more merchandise

than any other Marvel character hands down. I'd

But the Avengers and the Avengers Marvel tends

to lump in together numbers wise So it's not

a fair assess. It's not a fair assessment. But

if you break it up It'll be close. I mean Wolverine

for all this popularity doesn't sell a lot of

shirts. It's because he doesn't have a logo.

No Deadpool for all his popularity and the fact

that he seems to be the antihero of choice right

now Doesn't move an awful lot of merchandise

surprisingly Yeah, well there's there's entirely

different ecosystems of cultural importance There's

like what people in that read comic books like

and then there's people Outside of comic books

and what characters they connect to like those

are very different worlds Plus you got to think

in the fact of the marketing and the merchandising

is what's gonna appeal to kids? Spider -man's

gonna appeal to kids You know Iron Man may like

when you start talking about merchants stuff

like that when you talk about spider -man What

does he sell a lot of he gets? You know a good

deal the t -shirts and maybe some kids toys and

that's about it, right? But think of how many

things you see on with Punisher skulls on them.

Yeah That's true. I mean, you get shirts, obviously,

beanies, hoodies. Like I said, Glock backstraps.

I'll say this, too. His appearances. Sorry. His

appearances in video games are starting to help,

too. I mean, he's in Lego Marvel's superheroes,

which I love. Yeah. I mean, it's a start. And

that's the kind of thing you need to. be a consistently

popular comic book character. Hopefully it'll

continue. We should probably get to the ratings,

but I'll say this. At some point we should get

together and do a sort of a state of on Frank.

I know you guys have talked about it a few times.

We can talk about why is it he can't sustain

a monthly comic. It's funny too because you think

of a lot of these you know quote -unquote popular

characters or look at all the characters who

have had movies made of them from marvel or dc

And then look at how many of them sustain a consistent

monthly comic. Ghost Rider never has a consistent

comic. He's had two movies. Electra's had a movie

never sustained at all. Daredevil's been restarted

a ton of times. He's always rumored for more

movies. You know, Chris Sims was interviewed

for some USA Today article about someone even

asking that question, and he actually said a

really good quote. It was, The the general public

has shown that they're more than willing to love

superheroes, but they are not willing to love

comics I think that's a huge part of it. Like

people are like that is a brilliant quote. Yeah.

Yeah Superman. Yeah Punisher. Yeah, Batman. I'm

all about that Hey, how about you go inside a

comic book store and buy some for $2 .99 or maybe

it's $3 .50 now and I'll pass like that's that

is the general public's answer, but what's what's

really weird is That that is generally true,

but I mean Marvel's numbers since Avengers and

Iron Man took off They've become the exception

to the rule. I mean that's the typical movie

bounce though Oh, it was but I mean Iron Man

was never this popular No, and I mean since you

know Robert Downey jr. First, you know They first

did the first movie his trades just continue

to sell constantly every month Let's be honest,

I mean, to really cross cultures and become iconic,

like they always say, like, DC has iconic characters

and Marvel has relatable characters. The way

you become iconic is you have to have TV shows,

kids, Saturday afternoon cartoons and this sort

of thing. And Marvel is extremely late to that

game, at least in the way DC has been. You brought

up another discussion we could have about the

character, too. and that pertains to it and you

mentioned you know dc's not the relatable one

and that's been a huge problem for them in terms

of sustaining movies too i mean look at the look

at the thing i have a list and i've always said

and i've said this for the past i don't know

four five six years of the podcast up dc does

well with animation marvel does well with live

action films Neither of them do better if you

sweat if you flip -flop that because they like

DC Since 1978 one of the two characters that

have had the most movies Batman and Superman.

Yeah, you know But super stand Superman all of

a sudden is not sustainable and a lot of that's

relatability And I'd also argue that Marvel's

starting to get their shit together regarding

animation and starting to take it more seriously

I said starting, I'm not saying. They're nowhere

close to DC's level, but they're getting closer

rather than further away as they were for a long

time when they refused to put money into it,

when they refused to work on it. Well Marvel

thinks they're better or they're too good for

animation, so they're just like whatever We're

just gonna use this as a cash cow like then that

spider -man that came that spider -man and his

amazing friends thing that came on I know I'm

not the target demographic for that. That's fine

You're not never seen anything on the Disney

Channel. Obviously. I'm not but I know that That

was the most toyetic thing I'd ever seen in my

life, where it's just like, we are here to do

weird Teen Titans anime faces and sell toys.

I came here to chew gum and sell Spider -Man

toys, and I'm all out of gum. But the other issue

with that, so they always think they're better

than animation, so hell, let's just use this

as a chance to... Whore out some toys, but then

with DC when they go into movies their big issue

is that they're almost? Apologizing for their

own material like I I started really seeing I

mean with Batman They were a little bit more

subtle about us like let's just make them a little

bit more paramilitary We don't bring a lot of

attention to there There's a giant bat symbol

on his chest and no one's gonna miss the blue

underwear on the grace Tights thing that's fine

people were able to overlook that shit, but then

you go in it Green Lantern and they are almost

like apologetic for how shitty this is Yeah,

that is a complete other discussion. Yeah Yeah,

it is accurate even Mike and I have talked about

this a ton of times that DC's DC's movie people

have no interest in their comic people and they

even say Superman's name and man of steel I heard

they did it. I heard like Lois Lane tries to

say it and they go up Yeah, that's right They

never actually say Superman, they consistently

say Clark. And the interesting thing is, even

with all the changes to the Marvel characters,

they never seem embarrassed to embrace the comic

book stuff. Mean we still see things like Bruce

Banner turned into the Hulk and gamma radiation

and all this stuff that You know what if you

really look at it, it's really dumb, but they

don't care They just they just say it and say,

you know what you're gonna accept this or you

won't but either way, you know You're gonna be

entertained going back. Sorry to sorry to show

you I just thought it's I gotta get out there

before I forget going back to Marvel and the

animation and everything What was the number

one thing that got people into? Marvel Comics

Probably ever it was the 90s x -men cartoon that

is proof of concept interesting Marvel can do

animation. Well, and it's has a great impact

on the comic book community. Because I'll be

honest, the only reason why I got into comics

was the 90s X -Men cartoon. Same thing for my

life. And I agree with that. Yeah. I agree with

that. And I would also, I don't care what anyone

says, even though I know it bleeds color at times,

I still love the 94 Spider -Man cartoon. That

was one of the reasons why I - It was a good

show, yeah. I love that cartoon as well. Yeah.

Batman the animated series deserves a mention

here too, of course. No, I mean, I agree that

DC, on the whole, does better animating. Oh,

no, I know. I'm just saying, yeah, you're talking

about stuff that got people into talking. In

the 90s, Marvel did well with animation. Ever

since United We Stand, though? No, ever since

X -Men Evolution, that pile is shit. Oh, don't

even get me started. Don't even get me started.

OK. OK, let's get back to volume three here.

Please, yeah. We've come so far off. Fine, rating

time. There we go. Shut up, right? All right,

um, do we want to go to a break first? Yeah,

I will in a minute. Um, as far as just like my

overall Feelings on on volume three is it's a

perfect end to Ruckus run in my mind I know that

you know next time when we talk about warzone.

It's kind of an epilogue to the story, but i

really enjoyed it and we will be back after this

hello pop culture connoisseurs do you gain a

dark sense of peace when the guilty are punished

by a violent vigilante if so maybe you should

get some therapy and then subscribe to punish

your body count then that's best podcast concerning

all things frank castle I'm Dane Lamont. My co

-host Jake Williams and I cover the good, the

bad, and the hilarious. I'm the punisher of comics,

movies, and news. Do you like chummy co -host

banter? We got that. You need to get... No, you

need to fucking pay attention to the fucking

movie. You want kick -ass guest interviews? How

about Mike Barron and Tom Jane? No, I like a

little bit of grit in my cigar. You want carefully

considered in -depth analysis? I mean, yeah,

just one best picture at the Oscars yesterday.

I mean, it's no Terminator. Good luck with that.

Punisher Body Count, twice a month on Geekcast

Radio. Try to keep up. Jeez. All right, we are

back, and it is time to rate Greg Rucka's The

Punisher Volume 3. For me... No twirling mustaches.

Zero out of ten. I'm going to give it a four

star rating. I really liked it. I like the ending.

I really enjoyed a lot of the art. I think where

it kind of falls and this is just me and I'm

glad I wasn't collecting this single issue because

there are a couple of the covers that I just

didn't like. Like we mentioned, I like 12, 13,

14, and 16. 11 and 15, I just don't care. I don't

really care. Any time Marco Chichetto didn't

do a cover, you don't like it. Basically, that's

what you're saying. I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm just saying that's how it breaks down. No,

that's fine. So yeah, what about you Ryan? What

are you gonna rate volume 3? I'm gonna go slightly

off the board. I mean I'm gonna give it the Four

and a half star rating it is near perfect I loved

issue 12 of this one of my favorite individual

issues of the Punisher in a while and Yeah, the

cover work was great, but it's just it's not

quite perfect The pacing is still not a hundred

percent even though it speeds up quite a bit

but having said that Just to sort of go off the

board a bit and if I'm evaluating this as an

entire run the sum You know, it's the hole is

greater than the sum of its parts Oh, yeah, I

actually would give like if I were if I were

able to put all three trades together I would

raise it up to a five as just absolutely near

perfect I mean, I realize five is perfect, but

I'm just saying To me, nothing would ever be

perfect. But if you're going to have a five star

rating. Yeah. What about you, Jake? What do you

give volume three? I'm going to give it four

stars as well. I think, again, it does kind of

suffer from the pacing. And I almost think you

have to read it twice to understand the nuance

that record was going on. And I probably would

have given this a three had you had I rated it

the very first time I read it and before I talked

to Rucka but now after picking up more of the

nuance and everything I'm gonna give it a four

and I might have given it a five if it wasn't

so layered like that or if the pacing had a little

bit better so it's got like one or two minor

problems that are easily overcome but yeah I

still think it's really good I think anyone who's

interested in the and the character is interested

in police procedurals, or is a fan of Greg Ruck,

I definitely think they need to pick this up,

pick up this entire run. What about you, Dane?

I'm gonna give it a 4 .5 because I just think

it's a very strong, a very strong end to a series

that had a lot of potential to continue, but

it didn't, so it got to end in a very cohesive

manner. I feel like given the context of its

troubled, not necessarily troubled publication

history, but they definitely knew it was gonna

end before its time, I felt like... you could

give these three traits to someone and they'd

feel like, oh yeah, that's how they meant to

do it. And that's a wonderful feeling when things

like that happen. The other thing that I'll mention

for the sake of a 4 .5 rating is that we've talked

about art and especially nuance in the story.

One thing we didn't discuss in the main chunk

of the episode is that Greg Rucka does not cheat

with the amazing things that happen in the story.

They actually do show the process that Frank

goes through. Is everyone still there? Yeah.

Oh, sorry. Gee, I was just giving you room to

talk. Oh, no. There's a bit of static in the

background. It actually comforted me knowing

that everyone's still there. Whenever the static

goes out and everything's super clear, I get

kind of paranoid. But anyway, my point is that...

I really enjoy this book not only for the the

grand story that was able to finish but also

the nuance like They actually show that Frank's

a planner and they're not afraid to show Frank

planning I mean, they don't take all day with

it, but they actually do show that look He actually

was taking out the firing pin when they were

in that storage area We can get to it a bit more

too with warzone because I mean Iron Man's helmet

makes an appearance and we find out why Some

of that stuff was in the background. Yes, absolutely

The other thing I want to bring up really quickly

is something I didn't bring up in the body of

the show, but I love how them other side characters

of the Marvel universe tie into this Like the

fact that Carly Cooper is dating Bolt or on a

date with Bolt Nora Winters Nora Winters coming

in as well. I Really really like that. I thought

that was an interesting way It felt like everything

escalated in terms of tying him into the Marvel

universe because then of course now you know

we're about to get into the Avengers tying into

the Punisher finally and Those that's a group

of people who basically never interact with him

Yeah, pretty much All right, any other final

thoughts Jake and Dane? No, no All right. Well,

that's gonna do it for this episode of the pole

bag Join us next time and we will be talking

about the Punisher war zone for now. I am TF2

and Mike with Ryan the uneven flow right me Jacob

Williams Just stay in Lamont. I have nothing

cold to add to my name. I like that there's like

a Pause be as you to try to figure out who's

gonna go first It's always awkward You just heard

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