The Punisher: Born Review

You have reached the sprint voicemail box of

seven oh eight five seven one two James it's

me listen God knows why but we're all back on

the pool bag with Mike and Ryan. Okay now I Just

really should go without saying but since it's

you I'm gonna say anyway We need to lay off references

to hand jobs or really just anything dealing

with the pelvic area during the show and fucking

dollar general jokes we need to stop those and

um i i really wish you'd fucking stop making

fun of nightwing you know mike likes that guy

you i i know you think nightwing is the worst

thing to happen to your america since herpes

was invented i know you think nightwing is just

uh shitty version of Batman with a smile and

no one really likes the character and gets by

under Batman's shadow. Whatever. It's okay. We're

here. We're guests. Let's try and act like it,

okay buddy? Alright, we'll see you on the show.

I change the menu! Welcome to... The Pull Bag.

Join us as we dig out our latest comics and discuss

them with a rotating panel of the GCRN crew.

So sit back and enjoy this week's Hello and welcome

to the pull bag which has become the Punisher

bag for this first character month here inside

the pull bag I'm your host a Jim Mike joining

me. Of course is Ryan the uneven flow. Hello.

Yo How are you good and? From that extra long

internet only character podcast punish your body

count. We have Jake and Dane. Hey guys, thank

you enthusiasm Yeah. I appreciate that. Exactly.

Night week still sucks. What up? Fuck you. Strong

start. Strong start. Alright, that was that was

that was my only one. No more. Yeah. I'm done.

Oh, don't worry. I'll get into it later. No problem.

Here we go. Alright, so let before anybody else,

you know, takes the mic and talks our ears off

for the next hour or so. Let me explain. Throughout

the end of And shut up, Ryan. I guess this is

going to be passive aggressive bag today. Fuck

you guys, I'm going home. So the end of 2013

marks where we're going to do character months

every now and then here in the pull bag. So we'll

take a series of trade paperbacks, specifically

like beginning to end stories. And I don't care

how anal retentive I am about that. You know

and we'll do an entire month of content based

on that character the first one that we're gonna

be doing is the Punisher Based on Ryan's list

of suggestions to me on Ryan's man crush on the

character for some reason You said it not me

damn, right? So from episode 41 to 48 is going

to be Punisher month they will air twice weekly

on the ecast radio network throughout November

from November 2nd through November 27th. So that

will be that. Let's go around the table and just

briefly, if that's possible with this crew, discuss

when each of you first got into the character

of the Punisher. Ryan, you can go first. Haven't

we already been over this on other sites? I mean

my brother collected the comics I Borrowed them

quite a bit. He's six years older than I am.

So this is a while ago and I'm already old and

kind of lost track of the character for a while,

especially since he was dead in the 90s and Really

got back into it with welcome back Frank and

then collected everything religiously ever since

then. There you go That was brief late Yes Jake

I'll make this brief as well. I used to go to

this comic book shop in Chicagoland called amazing

fantasy and they had a section where they had

all their Punisher graphic novels and then they

had a sign that said Punisher almost as cool

as Wolverine and then I and then I I had read

Preacher by then and I was a big fan of Garth

Ennis and I heard he was on the book. I picked

up Welcome Back Frank and it was all over from

there. I like how so far the same title has been

mentioned twice. It's about to be mentioned thrice.

I like how your comic store is named after a

certain title. I'm just wondering if the actual

store number was 15. No, but that would have

been funny. Yeah, that would have been very funny.

I think the number was like 4145 LeGrange Street.

Wow. Alright, Dan, what about you? I know nothing

of this character. I was promised the Dollar

General gift card for being on this show. And

that is why I am here. You can only get the Dollar

General gift card if you have a Dollar General

Ho to trade. It's true. The exchange rates are

kind of rough these days. Thank you. Yeah, this

is in Canada after all. This is the United States.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Sorry, what was that? Our

dollar being worth more than yours for a good

portion of the year and the fact that, you know,

everything's cheaper. That's not good for Canadians

because that makes your export market shit. It's

not something to brag about. Yeah, except our

economy is still in better shape anyway, even

with their export market as shit. You need to

get some important questions out there. You're

from Canada, Ryan. Are you currently living in

Canada? yes yes we need to speak off the air

about uh tobacco products if you know oh god

don't even holy christ listen i have glaucoma

we're gonna take a short break and then we're

gonna get into punisher born after this So the

first train we're gonna talk about in this month

-long coverage on the Punisher is max comics

the Punisher born By Garth Ennis drawn by Derek

Robertson. Yes, thanks by Tom Palmer Published

by Marvel Entertainment LLC. Hey spoilers motherfucker

Parental advisory explicit content Yeah, really

You know, I direct addition sure I wasn't sure

how I was gonna like this being the introduction

to the character in the comics because beforehand

I was hoping it would traumatize the shit out

of you I've worked I used to work in social work.

Nothing can traumatize me now Wow Yeah, exactly

Bring us down Well, it's either that or you know

watch that shitty Ray Stevenson movie on loop

over and over and over again It was the movie

that was bad you humorless motherfucker So the

butters you're born as Ryan said by Garth Ennis

I I like this the whole time and I think the

reason why I'm not too scarred about about reading

this book the whole time I kept picturing hey

This is Forrest Gump without Forrest Gump. Oh,

OK. Really, I must have missed all of, like,

the attempted prisoner rape and constant, like,

murder in Forrest Gump. I may have to rewatch

it. Remember that one time Forrest Gump shoved

a man's face through a window and that man became

his archenemy? Yeah, I remember Lieutenant Dan.

I think you've jumped into year one. Oh, no,

I haven't, no. No, no, no, because they both

are set in the Vietnam time. But anyway, regardless,

I don't know. When I read this, I'm like, OK,

cool. And I'm used to the 2004 film origin. That's

what I'm used to. But I went into this with no

really preconceived notions other than what Ryan

told me about it was that it's the Punisher during

the Vietnam War. So it's not like I have some

70 year old bias like most comic fans do you

know what you know what's interesting about Punisher

born is that the Punisher when you think about

it kind of has three origins Especially in the

max universe. You've got his traditional origin,

which is the family being murdered in Central

Park you've got his time in Vietnam, which is

what this trade paperback is about and Garth

Ennis even wrote a one -shot. I think it was

called like Tiger Tiger. Yeah, or something like

that where, you know, growing up in New York

and seeing some of the actions that people in

his community did to stand up for injustice and

this sort of thing. So, you know, he really does

have like three layers of origin to him. So I

just thought I'd throw that out there. I thought

I was going to go somewhere with that, but never

mind. Don't worry, you didn't know I agree with

Jake simply because one of the things I liked

about the max universe Punisher is that there's

never really any clean break Into well now I

am truly the Punisher it is and that that's a

very dramatic and easy thing for a lot of Comic

book characters to make like this identity break,

but finding Frank looking into the life of Frank

Castle and trying to go through a chicken or

the egg situation his life is one of the more

rewarding things about his narrative I'd agree

the only thing before we get too far or too into

the issue too I'll add is as much as I really

hate to say it I'm not sure Vietnam can always

be his origin because unlike a lot of the superhero

origins There's a fixed time to Vietnam and let's

say 10 years from now, and the character is going

to be around 10 years from now, 20 years, et

cetera, et cetera. Ten years from now, what's

Vietnam going to mean to people? I mean, as much

as I hate to say it, it's a war that's not commonly

taught in certain curriculums and that kind of

thing. And not to mention that, but it ... It

dates the character with a real -life day. It's

not as though Peter Parker, you know, you say

like oh He was bit by the spider in 1965 So,

I mean there's no date to him. They could just

say like and Peter was bit in 94 now or whatever

It's not an option You know, I completely understand

what you're saying and Dane if I and I have addressed

this on body count. I think they can keep the

Punisher. There's two ways they can go about

this. One, Marvel's not afraid to get out the

ridiculous continuity and they can come up with

some stupid reason to age him back to 20 years

old, right? I mean, they've done it with Magneto

a bajillion times. They can do it with him. Secondly,

they can just make a Punisher title. Be almost

like a period piece Punisher in his universe

just happens to take place in the 70s and 80s

and maybe 90s at the latest so they can go about

it that way but one of the things we discuss

on the the show is that There's something unique

about Vietnam that makes the Punisher at least

in my opinion. I don't want to speak for Dane

But I agree. And as Anna said, part of that,

too, is it was the dirty war. I mean, there was

the line in Welcome Back, Frank, you know, you

do things that what is the problem with Iraq

or Iraq was it wasn't Vietnam. Right. Yeah, there's

that aspect of it. It's something I'll probably

get into more with the Rukka run But I don't

necessarily have an issue with them not defining

which war I think it kind of sucks But on the

other hand you mentioned, you know Magneto and

everybody else has been de -aged Frank doesn't

work. Well in the superhero Non -realistic universe

or he doesn't work as well as a lot of other

ones and that's why I think that he can I think

that's why he could do a standalone Like 70s

or 80s book and you can put campy Characters

whenever you need your obligatory crossover like

I really feel they can do a separate thing for

him I mean hell they do it with the X -Men every

month Well, they did it with Max too and I mean

I liked the idea of the character aging and you

know There was a clearly defined sort of run

there and for the record I mean Ennis always

intended for Frank to die at some point. He just

wasn't sure when it was gonna be uh... and obviously

course erin got the opportunity to often but

back to born which is the start of this picture

i was about to say sir you're going widely off

topic in that it's not okay and the funny thing

is is that it's not this this is there this collection

that collects one through four To me it didn't

seem like Frank's story at all in certain parts

It does but it's more Goodwin story than it is

Frank's because you've got a good one narrating

that pretty much the entire time Well, he's the

point -of -view character for sure. Yeah, and

I think you kind of need that Especially with

somebody like Frank who's quiet and I mean they

haven't established any sort of monologue for

him at this point this is Chronologically you

need a Mickey duke it in there somewhere No,

you don't you don't need comic relief in the

middle of the fucking Vietnam War But anyway

Damn it just open up their issue and get to it

Mike. I am I really love the art. I think the

art is amazing Of course next week that might

change but The art is yeah, I mean the the Derrick

Robertson art Is amazing. It adds a lot of grit

and realism to the story lots of Lots of dark

shading and shadows and this sort of thing, which

I know the anchor does a lot of that but the

pencil Blur a lot of time sets it up to be that

way. So Yeah, lots of gore Which is always good

Yeah And like I said, I love the point of view

of of Goodwin I think that's that's a great way

to Shape the story is basically tell Frank's

story like have somebody narrate it and I think

that's that's sort of a Clean all -american for

it too was the idea right? Yeah Well, I think

that you needed the perspective like if you would

have had a first -person Frank Castle narration

sort of like oh, you know War Journal, blah,

blah, blah. We've already heard Frank's voice

in reading so many other Punisher stories. In

order to see him become the Punisher before actually

putting the skull on, we really needed to see

it from an outside point of view, from a third

-person perspective. I love how the first issue

in the story basically ends with what I'm assuming

is his own internal monologue. It's it's it's

I like I talked to Garth about this. I'm not

on a first name being a Basis I talked to Ennis.

There we go about this I liked it a lot more

before he came out and sort of defined what he

thought the voice was I liked when he left it

up to the reader He's on record as saying is

it's meant to be the devil essentially Well,

he basically me mentions it as the Grim Reaper

as the incarnation of death itself some form.

Yeah. Yeah Well, I'm sure it's Mephisto at the

end of the day sure but like I have the hardcover

and even in his proposal for this miniseries

he even says like While Frank might represent

the grim unstoppable and in itself us war machine

at its worst Young Stevie is America at its best

he sees name name as a terrible misstep and then

he later mentions that We are eventually going

to have this outside voice talk to Frank and

even though I'm not gonna outright say it It's

basically deaf talking to Frank and trying to

cut a deal with them Yeah, I actually at least

the interpretation I had way back when I read

this in the individual issues Was that yet could

be death the one I sort of liked was it was actually

the Punisher Frank himself. There was something

deeper within him Like sort of like how the Sort

of like in Watchmen how there's the night out

the suit and then there's Dan Dreiberg the man

Yep. Well, I would equate it to Eisenberg and

Walter White. Oh, sorry. No, shut up. I would

equate it more to Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborne

versus Green Goblin in the original Spidey film

in 2002. That's a more campy way of looking at

it, sure. Well, no, I mean that technically is

what they did and that's better moves like you

can't deny your nature Norman They fired you.

It's like, okay time for me to go nuts. Oh Yeah,

yeah One thing I like about Ennis is that in

the story he leaves it open to interpretation,

like even in this is smart enough to go, OK,

there's a lot of different ways you could see

the punishers actions. I'm not going to tell

you the right answer. I'm just going to leave

like these actions out there and you pick up

the pieces yourself. I appreciate that. And I

hope Grant Morrison read this so he can learn

how to do that properly. Yeah, yeah. I'm not

a big yeah, I'm not a big Morrison guy either.

I am I really I read like every academic paper

on him. I think he's great No, literally all

of the annotations. I go man. I get this I am

I understand this esoteric shit. He's spitting.

I'm sorry some mongrels can't pick it up But

that that's not his fault. God damn it. Well,

I understand it. I have no issue with it. I just

think that there is not all that great a writer

in the end. I have no issues with it. It's just

whatever. Why are we talking about Grant Morrison?

You're right. I'll say this. The only thing I

read because of Jake, that's the answer. Yeah,

that's true. You want to know we've got derailed

so early on that we forgot to talk about how

Dane got into the Punisher. No, we talked about

that. Yeah, we did. Yeah, we just didn't care.

There's a big difference. There's a big difference

between not listening and not caring, and I like

to think I walk that line every day of my life.

It's nice to know that the monster has a line,

though. No rape. It's nice to know that he has

a line somewhere. Frank has lots of lines. To

be honest, rape is just a sideshow to what Frank

wants to do, which is killing. No, like I'm truly

Steve right Steve Goodwin in the story brought

up a good point hit Frank Castle killing the

woman that they captured Was his version of helping

her out that was like in his version. It's like

I did a good thing there That's why he kills

her now, of course, we all know why he kills

McDonald I mean he kills his own man He yeah,

he says it's allowed he thought he needed to

be punished. So That is a real yeah, that's that's

something that really divided the fan base when

uh, he killed general McDonald This is McDonald

is the soldier the general's pattern Oh, yeah,

Colonel, I'm in sick general. Yeah, I'm sorry

I got a bit ahead of you there having said that

both of those did divide the fandom just for

background here McDonald's is a soldier in Castle's

Squadron, this is for the listeners. I'm well

aware you guys know this and there's a wounded

Viet Cong soldier, a female, and McDonald, having

pissed himself during her attack, essentially

wants revenge by raping her. Castle calmly shoots

her in the head, killing her while he's on -

While she's being raped, yep. Yeah, and again,

later on, we just - you know stevie and probably

correctly says that castle thinks he's doing

the best thing you can by killing this girl and

he then goes on to kill one of his own men mcdonald

by drowning him And again, this was something

that divided the fandom, but I had no issue with

it. Really? People were upset that he drowned

the guy? What did they think was going to happen

to him? Remember when this was published? And

I'm just going to be blunt about this. The Punisher

in the 80s and 90s was more Batman. He killed.

He didn't kill nearly as often. He had the bat

shit annoying habit of fucking letting people

go so they could murder more people, i .e. jigsaw.

How many times did he corner jigsaw in those

old 80s comics and then just go like I'll let

you go as a message Really? We've actually actively

avoided those comics on our show because they're

so enraging we like and even Baron fell into

it like yeah on yeah, so this was remember, you

know, this is 2003 we're not used to Ennis's

version at this point or any of the others that

have depicted him as a lot darker and so the

fact that he would off somebody who he actively

recruited and Brought out with him was a little

shocking. I think for some people not to me though

to me Frank's always been you commit a crime.

You're dead Yeah, right No, I I agree and you

know that that's the other thing uh, you brought

up with like the issues of him letting people

go in the 90s and 80s like every like one thing

that i've sometimes uh Not called out but reminded

punisher fans of is like a lot of people like

to think the punisher's better Than certain marvel

characters because they don't fall into certain

superhero traps and I go no A lot of his stories

rely on superhero conventions, whether you realize

it or not. Like, oh man, time for wacky gadgets

to come out of my van's ass. Time for microchip

to build me a helicopter out of fucking Legos

or something. But then they will take a giant

dump on Batman for no goddamn reason. But that's

the thing, like when we went into Max, And it's

finally said like no we are truly going to divorce

ourselves from those conventions Buckle up buddy

and some people you are right, right? Some people

could not handle that. Yeah, and there's still

some I mean Even when he's been reinserted back

into the Marvel Universe He they do a good job

of and again, we'll get into this with later

issues But they really had to separate them because

he's not Batman. I mean Batman is a cuddly the

cuddly friendly guy and Don't know about that.

Yes. He truly does compared to Frank man is he

does not want anyone to die He is okay. Yes compared

to Frank in that instance It's not just that

though in a lot of ways Batman is fighting a

war but he has absolutely no concept of what

that is Especially when you compare the two I

mean Batman's this colorful universe where you

know, you've got clowns. Yes, they're psychotic

Etc, etc Frank's really grounded in reality and

to him pretty much everyone is a monster and

You know, we see it with an issue that we're

not gonna be have in it But the end that really

in mom and when we come right down to it Frank's

ultimate goal is to wipe out humankind I mean

he if he wants to eliminate all evil he has to

kill everyone And I don't think he has a problem

with that either. I disagree with that nihilistic

interpretation. My copy of Punisher The End came

with a snub -nosed revolver and two bullets.

I felt that was a bad add -on for that issue.

But I understood why they added that, but still

kind of rough. But yeah, I know, but I do understand

the Punisher can take on a very nihilistic view

and especially in current day. I think that there's

a lot more room for interpretation than just

that, but certainly writers are lending themselves

to that. Sorry, I think deviating even more.

I just like more of the Baron type interpretation

where Frank does this out of some sense of revenge,

even though he calls it punishment. And but it's

weird. He doesn't go out of a sense of civic

duty in a lot of that stuff. No, he doesn't because

it's part of the social contract. You know, everyone

spoke in order to have protection. Everyone's

supposed to get along and fucking stop getting

kids addicted to smack and all this sort of thing.

But I like the Baron interpretation where he

does that. But every now and then he can help

a. homeless black rapper go back to school. I

was just thinking of that kid. Oh, man. Hello,

Punisher Podcast listeners. Yeah. Yeah, he's

more than willing like, oh, look at you. You're

a hooker plastic surgeon with a heart of gold.

I'll make sure you get settled in nice. How can

I help Harlem? Well, I'll just dress up in blackface.

Oops. Go fight with Luke Cage with Luke Cage.

Yeah Why not just send Bruce Willis in the middle

of Harlem Yeah, anyway, so I mean back to born

before we get completely off The one thing that

really made me when I read this the one thing

that like really made me think about the actual

world that we live in today is What Goodwin says

about? We have everything we could ever possibly

want. Why can't we stay out of the rest of the

world? Open of issue three. Yes, yeah, and he's

got the entire monologue essentially about the

Vietnam War And I mean Ennis has made his feelings

on it quite clear over the years between this

fury and everything else and Fury max was a masterpiece.

Yes, I would agree and it especially works well

when you throw born and The final trade of his

max run Valley Forge Valley Forge into the mix

because you get really this mix between Furies

sort of How he became who he is as well as Frank

and they're very similar characters, but really

different Mm -hmm. I mean one is absolutely in

love with war and the other one's just been surrounded

by it and it's it's Broken him in a lot of ways,

but in a lot of ways the two characters are like

Magneto and Professor X except for they get along

Yeah, yeah, I feel like furious the kind of guy

that um is Especially in the recent miniseries

fury was the kind of guy that was more more willing

to kid himself about his intentions I mean in

every version of Ennis Ennis is a guy that says

like fury closes his eyes one good i uh... toward

the international politics and thinks that all

things will be okay in the end uh... i just have

to get to the bureaucratic bullshit it's like

no bureaucratic bullshit in the in the uh...

table under the table deals are going to happen

whether you want to or not fury uh... and that

always seems to screw the guy over The reason

why that kind of the the opening monologue and

stuff from Goodwin really hit me was because

really honestly, yeah, I Know it's the whole

oh, we're the United States. We just because

we can we're going to type of thing Yeah, yeah

world, but why the hell are we still in Iraq?

Well, we're technically not okay, but yeah, I

think you mean like Afghanistan Iraq, but like

like why is it? You know, okay, I get it 2001

happened someone attacked us. I understand that

yeah, but like Why did we have to have the Gulf

War? You know, why can't we let I just don't

understand that? I mean, I just don't in a lot

of ways. That's why Ennis wrote this in Because

things really haven't changed since the 70s and

yeah Goodwin's Goodwin's monologue is And that

area is really the furthest we get away from

Frank's story in this entire thing. And yet it

all sort of comes back to it because I mean,

the insinuation in a lot of this book is that

Frank Castle or the Punisher is a monster who

was born out of that war. He was a soldier. He

was used there and they created him. And of course,

part of the Part of the question that's not actually

asked is is this still happening? Are there people

like that and there are I mean by the end of

this book it's pretty clear to me and I think

a lot of people that castle is a Just suffering

from like severe mental problems including post

-traumatic stress disorder and other things like

he's Robertson mentions it that he wanted to

draw a young man, but with his eyes that he's

seen some some shit No, I like that like you're

bordering on that thousand -yard stare that everyone

talks about people have been through war so much

They just kind of look right through you. I really

like coming back to the art briefly. I really

loved Frank Castle's expressions through all

this, you know, like you could definitely see

he was a hardened person But you still realize

wow like so many other Vietnam Soldiers this

guy was a boy this guy Um was probably joined

before he uh before he was 21 uh, it was just

and uh Whether he likes it or not that that innocence

is still on his face Regardless of the things

he's done in this war I just thought that was

so well done because you're not allowed to see

that in Punisher comics these days Yeah, no,

and one of the things I like best about the max

series Maybe it's because I like to curse is

that it is explicit content because you don't

see mainstream everyday comics where kids are

going to read them you don't see a lot of explicit

stuff so I like that Marvel Created this explicit

series. I think that's that's just amazing and

you know, Dan you're talking about the art the

art is just Every single facial feature Frank

has had this entire run this entire book. It's

just drawn perfectly like Scenery is gonna blow

the guy up taking a shit and that's yeah, this

is back into issue three again I mean and this

is the first time Frank kind of tries to open

up to Stevie To a certain extent, but I mean

he fails miserably because he's already He he's

already really the character that or the version

of Frank that we see in Aaron's run Whenever

he goes back in the trade aptly titled Frank

He already has kind of lost that ability to have

a normal conversation with somebody. He's already

sort of lost and I mean the voice just sort of

taunts him about it's you know asking him what

the hell was that and It's It's yeah, it's it's

well done and it's almost heartbreaking that

yeah, he wants to reach out But he just doesn't

know how anymore. He's not even really a person

in some ways Yeah, a lot of people like to try

and bust on Jason Aaron for that like going like

oh He was so disconnected from his family such

bullshit. I'm like, no, he's been disconnected

for a while Like this, this is this was clearly

shown in born where he actually tries to make

human contact with someone. We talked about it

in the pre show. I mean, it's not that he doesn't

loves his family. He absolutely does love them

in every way. And it's shown in almost every

single panel. And I really don't understand how

the hell people reading it don't get that possibly

due to illiteracy. But it's he. Yeah, he does

love them and he. absolutely cares about them,

but he doesn't know how to stay or how to care

for them anymore. He's just lost that. He's not

the same person he was. Yeah. And speaking of

Mike saying that he's drawn with his facial expressions

perfectly, like look at the very end when he's

coming off the plane and he's meeting his family.

Like you get that picture. Where he's in his

dress uniforms. He's super clean cut You know

has the band -aid on his cheek and you can like

look into his eyes and you can tell By looking

at this. This is a character who is in the dress

uniform is Representing, you know the few the

proud the Marines but yet at the same time his

eyes are like I've just killed a million people

You know, a lot of humanity is shit, and I'm

just looking for an excuse to cut loose again.

And we as fans give Steve Dillon a lot of shit,

sometimes deservedly so. What do we do? No, no,

we never. Yeah, right. Anyway, there's no way

you could find 18 examples of that on any show.

No, I mean, he's yeah, he's been given a lot

of shit, but he needs to need to give him credit

that. Guys better not be spoiling any shit that

I haven't read yet in Aaron's run shut the hell

up in Aaron's run He picks up a lot of that really

well from Robertson. I thought that Yeah, Robertson

to a certain extent to has that same look that

Dylan captured really well. I thought of okay.

I'm back. What the hell do I knew do with these

people? Like he doesn't know, it's as the soldier

tells him in Frank as well, he doesn't know how

to hold a baby or his wife or anything like that.

He's been asking people to give him a 60 for

these past... These past few years so yeah the

concept of living a normal life frightens him

at this point and yeah He tries to have the conversation

with Stevie and Stevie's looking forward to going

home being a family man Frank has nothing in

common with this person anymore So yeah, we continue

on and I mean the Vietcong attack Valley Forge

And yeah, the fourth issue is sort of a run -and

-gun And again, the love before the art absolutely

stands out in this. Oh, Robertson's art. I've

never seen somebody draw rain so well. Oh, yes.

I know that sounds bad, but no other than Malar.

Malar is really good at drawing rain like you

are. You mean Miller? No, Malar. We he spells

it with an A or whatever. You're thinking of

Mark Millar, I think, which is confusing me.

Wait, who drew Wolverine enemy of the state?

Yeah, that was definitely not Mark Millar. That

was John Romita Jr. Yeah. Fine, that's the one

good thing I can give JRJR. Yeah, I was going

to say, man, are you aware? You're not a big

fan of the guy. Jake is chewed on the cigar a

little bit too long tonight. Yeah, maybe. No,

I mean, I can give someone a compliment when

they do something well. As much as I rag on what's

-his -name Steve Dillon, the main gripes that

I have is that it looks like he's cutting and

pasting all of his characters' faces. And John

Remeter Jr. can be good when he's not drawing

everyone looking like a refrigerator. Um, what

the other thing is you were mentioning how you

really liked how Mike how you really like Derek

Robinson drawing rain You shouldn't feel embarrassed

about that because I can work on wondering in

my head. Should I bring up? I like how we draw

so many folds in people's clothes, because that

sounds so arbitrary, but it means a lot, because

it brings in that actual realism, because you're

like, oh, actually, clothing does bend. We're

not in a spandex -filled world. This is where

people wear Kevlar, and people wear their fatigues.

That shit bends and folds and wraps around themselves.

He really drew everything really well. And I

mean, the amount of detail in the book is phenomenal.

And I mean, in terms of Punisher artists over

the years, he's on my short list, along with

Parlov, of course, and Leonardo Fernandez is

one of my all time favorites. Now, of course,

let's not give any praise to Paul mounts like

the colors really enhance. Yeah, it sends true

drawings. I mean, I, I don't know if this book

would be the same without the colors. Yeah. Yeah.

Colors are amazing, especially on, on a lot of

the explosions and a lot of the gunfire or even

an issue for when that flare goes off and they

see all the via Kong by the light of the flare.

Yup. Yup. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

I want to make sure the color is back. That's

what I was going to say. The whole flares up.

That all scene is just amazing. I love how they

kind of make the fact that Stevie got thrown

into the plane on that opposite page of where

he gets thrown. I love how they almost make that

an explosion even though it's supposed to be,

oh, the white light. Go to the tunnel. Go to

the end of the tunnel. I get that. I just like

how that fades where he's on the plane and then

the rest of the page is the sky with the plane

flying away. Yeah, to sum it up. I mean, they

fight to in the end, it's only Frank and Stevie

left and they fight to the airstrip. Stevie is

killed and dreams that he's made it and safe,

et cetera, et cetera. And yeah, leaving just

Frank and then eventually the voice and in. Two

of my favorite pages, I think, from the Punisher

books where he's just absolutely offing Viet

Cong soldiers while soaking up a lot of punish

- er, a lot of, uh, I almost said punishment.

Damage? Yeah. Damage. Um, and yeah, the voice

is telling him, you know, all he has to do now

to survive this and have a war forever is agree

to whatever it is it wants. That'll be a price,

but nothing's free. Yeah, you're gonna forget

that you married Maria and we're gonna kill your

grandma Yeah octopus takes over your brain for

about two years much later. Yes So yeah Frank

Frank as we all know I think survives and we

get this absolutely beautiful single page which

I love with Frank badly wounded his gun absolutely

shattered and just Dozens of soldiers around

him as corpses and of course the skull in the

background, which was a nice sort of subtle touch

Before we get on to the big final battle, I think

what really made this fight this whole giant

battle at Valley Forge so What made it so exciting

for me was they spent three issues basically

showing you how degraded Valley Forge had gotten

at that point how the rot had set in for this

military complex including the heroin abuse Yeah,

yeah Wait, wait, you mean you can have scenes

in something that are a little slow to depict

action later on I was honestly Ryan this is not

just me having to read this before we record

the show but I read this about five hours before

the recording session, and it took me maybe,

I don't know, 45 minutes. This book went faster

than any of the first three seasons of Breaking

Bad. I'm not picking on you for that. I'm picking

on a lot of the commentary about Rukka's run,

which I agree is slow in parts, but there's something

more satisfying to actually having set up. versus

killing everybody in one issue. Look, I'm on

board with that. I just don't need - That's the

beauty of this trade right there. You have the

first three issues setting everything up, and

then the final day is the battle. Look, I just

don't need a whole issue where Ozzy flips a knife.

for like panel upon panel upon panel upon panel

upon panel. Flip flip. Yeah, flip. Trust me.

Trust me. Like I said, we'll get into my problems

with it as well, too. And that's one of them.

Although my biggest annoyance in that was the

Thanksgiving Day slash whatever the issue with

the little rat bastard kid. But look, yeah, I

mean, she took her husband's name. Oh, geez.

Oh, man. Sorry. So this final battle - I think

I'm getting PTSD now. This final battle is pretty

gruesome and pretty much like, for any of us

that weren't, I don't think any of us were alive

back in the time that Nom happened. Unless Ryan

is like somewhere around 41 years old, but I

doubt it. Not quite, but anyway. Yeah. You know,

we've all seen - war documentaries about vietnam

everyone in this room has seen forest gump even

though that's you know not the most act you know

it's not the most accurate it's it's embellished

some of us have mothers who are history teachers

and and they learned something there is that

six years old there is that some of us live in

countries where they actually teach about the

vietnam war america because that's like required

teaching and it's not like none of our dads were

vietnam era Veterans or anything. Okay, Jake,

you can stop bragging now, you know, I mean Ryan

all's he asked it This or the war between America

and Terrence and Phillips so Or we could go back

to the war where we kicked your asses and burned

the White House down We rebuilt it it was even

fucking better. We basically just cashed in on

the insurance. Fuck you Sorry, what's that? I

was remembering my free health care. Um, anyway.

How about them apples, bitch? Wow. I have no

idea what you actually said. So anyway, look,

I mean, if you're comfortable with, uh, government

death panels, you fucking not. Oh God. Yeah.

I love your commercials. They're amazing. Yeah.

Okay. So Frank gets home, the voice is talking

to him, and of course, oh, there's a price. Not

right now, but there's a price. My first thought,

other than thinking that the fact that the family

is inside the skull and how cool that last panel

is, why is he married to Carol fucking Brady?

Yeah, that's the idea he's supposed to be he's

supposed to be going back to what Stevie wanted

and I mean That's the whole dichotomy of this

and unlike Stevie unlike Stevie. There's no going

back for him yeah, and behind his daughter is

of course apple pie and The Sun is actually holding

a miniature white picket fence to truly symbolize

the meaning of this scene If you stare at it

long enough You'll see Mickey Mantle hitting

a home run, like in one of those 3D pictures.

To be fair, I mean, Aaron picked this up as well

immediately. When he goes back home, they have

the meal, et cetera, et cetera. And I mean, it's

the same idea. He's... Exactly. No, go ahead,

sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say,

he's not that person anymore. Well, I have the

Magic Eye version of this, and if you look on

the last page and cross your eyes, you can literally

see that black people do not exist in this version

of America. It's pretty idyllic. Oh my god. This

whole Magic Eye thing reminds me of Willem. Oh

my god That sounded really racist. I was saying

like, you know, that's what people in 1950s wanted.

Yeah, there's a reason I didn't say anything

to that and the Irish have to go in through the

back Yeah, you know that was a kind of a overhyped

lie They never really had to do that and the

Irish not apply wasn't a real thing. Not really

anyway anyway Yeah, so hey look, it's a schooner.

It's not a schooner. It's a sailboat dumbass

A schooner is a sailboat, stupid! Is that from,

like, a movie? It's from Mallrats, anyway. Thank

God! I know it's from goddamn Mallrats! Yeah,

thanks. Anyway, so, I mean, a lot of this book

really served to, at least for me, I remember

when I first read it, and my immediate thought

was like, well, and this is pretty much why Frank

doesn't necessarily belong in... the sort of

cartoon universe of a lot of comics yeah he's

not a cuddly character and he never really he

sort of was in the 80s he brought up a lot of

the things that kind of ground him in the comic

book tropes but i mean since then he's really

been taken away from that and yeah By the way,

I should note that, like, as much as I've bagged

on it, I think there's room for both. Like, I

like the campy version of Batman as well as the

darker one. I'm fine with both existing, so I

don't think it has to be one or the other. It

would be kind of nice if we could get both. But,

I mean, at the moment and for the foreseeable

future, Marvel's not really interested in having

two versions of him running around. Hell, Marvel

right now is not interested in having one version

of him running around. Thunderbolts And the hell

with this by the way, I'm just gonna bring up

Thunderbolts for just a sec. What a piece of

crap I mean, I'm depressed. I'm depressed by

the fact that people love souls version You know

why they love souls version because Daniel ways

was so fucking god -awful Even banging your head

against a wall for three hours would be preferable

to reading that crap, right? It's been so it's

been upgraded to shit from like absolute trash

Jake and I have spent like hours at this point

being perplexed how something could get out of

Marvel like that Where it felt like there was

a sale on Hulk villains and Thunderbolts just

gobbled them up It was the worst thing was they

spent like a year in Thunderbolts without explaining

why this team of loner Anti -heroes would ever

fucking chill out with each other and they just

explained that like the last month And it was

and even Jake admitted that was kind of a weak

-ass reason like it's a round -robed Communist

vigilante thing. It's not too great, but like

It's it's like you when you mentioned earlier

how like there's a lot of marketers in comics

these days And I felt like Thunderbolts never

had a story to it. It's here's these characters

Fucking do something and to be fair. I mean,

there's nothing in ways background to suggest

that he could write anything Really? Well, I

guess that's it. I guess that's my kind way of

saying that he's a terrible writer I mean Wolverine

origins is some of the worst Comics I've ever

read I can't believe I wasted my time following.

I think I read the first 16 issues or so Daniel

is one of those writers that likes to think he's

writing stuff that matters and that always fucks

them over Yeah, there's an element of that I

just I'm not a fan of his so my apologies to

anyone who is but I'm definitely not Yeah Where

were we again? I asked borns any final thoughts

from anybody aside from me. I Really enjoyed

it. I thought it was a really interesting way

to show Like at least a story that most mainstream

audiences would not have seen before everybody

You know everybody that knows of the character

knows that his family got killed They may not

know you know most of the mainstream audience

may not know the exact specifics and the fact

that it happened in Central Park versus Rio but

I really like it because it adds that extra layer

to the origin and kind of like I think you were

saying it earlier Ryan or maybe it was Dane but

Shows that Frank's life and Frank becoming the

Punisher was a continuum and it wasn't just an

on -off switch that just happened when his family

died Exactly. Yeah, he's I mean he It almost

seems like he was destined to be the Punisher

and and you mentioned this earlier with the 80s

stuff that This is sort of the answer to what

kind of person would do it now in the 80s. Yeah,

it was just sort of revenge And I don't know,

my issue with that has always been that he's

long with the 80s Punisher. He's long killed

the people that off his family. How long can

one person go just based on revenge? And this

kind of fills in the blanks. It adds that he

was messed up before his family died. Yeah, sure.

Sure, and it sort of adds sort of it adds another

layer to him and why he's doing it as well as

everything else Yeah, I'm not sure if we're ever

gonna go back to a Punisher because people do

forget there are Punisher comics where the dude

couldn't like Go on vacation and smile and fight

dinosaurs. I mentioned it before I mentioned

it before I think there's room for more than

one Version of them. It's just yeah, they're

not interested in it now and I hate to say it

but a lot of that is because There's a this is

something I didn't talk to you guys about before

the show. So I'll mention it now There's a big

feeling at Marvel and other places that the Punisher

is a one -dimensional character Really after

all this fucking time hang on Now Anyone I have

talked to will tell you that Ennis dispelled

a lot of that with his run and Aaron helped it

out an awful lot and then Rukka did. The fact

that they had three now very high -profile writers

essentially in a row on the title and sort of

building the character helped it out a lot. But

the sort of bad offshoot of this is The 80s and

90s stuff is, it's felt like it's untouchable

that you can't go back to that because that's

the OneNote era. And I don't think that's true.

It's just the characters changed with the times

and the 80s were all about, 80s and 90s were

all about action heroes and that sort of thing.

And I mean, yeah. And then another issue of course,

is the fact that the Character was dragged through

the mud so bad in the 90s I don't think we'll

find too many Punisher fans that were fans of

the writing for him in the 90s. I Don't know.

He certainly had his fun times in the 90s, but

then you run into things like he's an angel.

He's actually running the mafia Throw anything

at the wall and see what sticks era and of course,

you know that that's hardly a good editorial

philosophy for any character Exactly, so we're

gonna take what? I didn't do my final thoughts.

Oh, you didn't come on guys. Um For you again

Let's see here just a man pulled from the street,

but let's see here My final thoughts are that

this was a really good comic that, and I might

get some shit for this, but I felt it was somewhat

hamstringed when Frank killed that general. I

felt like that was something that could have

used another revision, simply because I don't

necessarily hate the fact that, I mean, I get

it. You could argue that Frank was trying to

protect his own men, keeping the base alive,

maybe protecting his version of America's interests,

but that general didn't deserve to get fucking

sniped for it, for making a U .S. policy decision.

But, okay, now I know which general, I wasn't

sure which general you were talking about at

first, but now, the guy that couldn't read the

fucking signs. Yeah. Because Frank was in front

of it. I disagree with you, because I like that

he did get killed. I think he did need to get

killed, because he was that US military, and

I don't mean any disrespect, but bug up the ass

general that was more. That does make you evil.

He was more worried about what. uh... how the

base of looked and what appearances were this

is a friggin war you're not going to be able

to do you know tucked in pillow and all tight

corners around your friggin bad enough to die

look at the end of the day people in apparently

it does look at the end of the day people who

are punisher fans wanna pretend that franks never

killed an innocent or never killed a cop or someone

who didn't deserve it But the history of the

book just does not bear that out. Trust me. I'm

sure. Trust me. I'm familiar with that considering

he hits every single checkbox in the old psychopath

list. I mean, on what level is he not? And it's

not a bad thing. People want to root for the

bad guy. There's people that still love Walter

White and there's other there's other characters

that fall into that. I mean, Scarface is Believe

me like an antihero for an awful lot of people

Wolverine has done some truly horrible stuff

and I know dude I feel I wrote Martha Stewart

letters every day. She was in jail And on that

back with our final ratings on this book in this

first episode of Punisher month here in the pullback

after this Alright, we are back here in the Punisher

bag and we have just talked about the Punisher

born by Ennis. And overall, there wasn't anything

too jarring for me. There wasn't anything in

the art that I disliked. The story is solid.

I'm gonna give it a 5 stars perfect. I was surprised

at how much I liked it. Considering how little

I know about the character. Maybe listen to my

goddamn recommendations from now on then I Usually

do except when it comes to breaking fad What

is your rating I give it a perfect five as well

Dane I gave it an almost perfect four point five

Okay Ryan five as well. I love the character

and this is one of my favorite sort of early

interpretations of him All right, so that's gonna

do it for this first episode of Punisher month

You can find Jake and Dane over on Facebook.

You can search out Punisher body count. You can

find them over there Ryan's on Twitter at NightBeat.

I'm also on Twitter at TF2 and Mike. You can

go to GeekCastRadio .com or PunisherBodyCount

.com and find all the other shows there. And

we will catch you next time. It's been fun. You

just heard the latest episode of the Pullback,

GCRN's comic book review podcast. There are several

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