DC Comics History: Pre and Post New 52

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-con .com. Surprised to see me? A little. Batman,

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as we dig out our latest comics and discuss them

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sit back. and enjoy this week's Pull Bag. That's

a real gasser, huh, Mr. J? I give the punchlines

around here. Got it? Hello and welcome to the

Pull Bag. This is episode 25. I am your host,

T .H .O. and Mike. Joining me is Steve Megatron.

Hello. Hello. How are you? Good. Also joining

us in this 25th episode is Ryan the uneven flow

He's back once again and he'll be back next week

when we talk about Hawkeye that was very oddly

riveting. But anyway, I Mean your previous exchange

not mine mine was riveting right? Yes. Well,

you are Canadian after all. Yes Some are better

than others Oh boy, and we are here to talk about

Detective Comics Comics. I still, I don't get

that. Somebody please explain that to me. Uh,

it's very old. I understand that, and I'm glad

it's now essentially DC Entertainment for the

most part. Even though, you know... I thought

they were called Warner's Bitch. There is that

when it comes to movies Yeah, it's happening

to comics too, unfortunately, but that's another

story Oh boy, I'm sure we'll get into that at

the end of the show Ryan, what have you been

up to? Nothing Nothing great. Okay. I'll spend

that long first of all second of all, what do

you expect? all I do is like play video games

and work and stuff read Things there summed it

up go Steve what about you? I'm finishing up

a final paper for my English class, which is

online Not very fun, but I Will agree with you

it is boring It's so boring. I don't want to

do it And that's why you're doing this instead.

Yes, exactly. Something more interesting. Well,

hopefully. Time will tell. Jerks. But yeah, that

and working towards some other specific things

for my other show, Altered Geek, and also I've

inherited some... abilities you could say from

another website which yes we will not name them

here I want to know more I suppose that which

is geek geek in week this oh that which is geekly

man we gotta talk about what they suckered you

in for too then Not in this episode, we're not,

and we'll talk about that off air. We are here,

much like in episode 20, we are here this time

around in episode 25 to talk about DC Comics

brief history about them and just what happened

between the original continuity and the new 52.

So originally they were named National Allied

Publications in 1934. They are now... part of

Warner Brothers Entertainment incorporated a

Time Warner Company. But anyway, yeah, they've

been DC for all of my lifetime at least and I

think all of the lifetime of everyone else on

here Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, and and probably most

of our listeners So there's that and let's be

honest. It was the first portion of one of their

first names for a very long time it means DC

was synonymous with action comics and Also Superman

most notably I mean he was their big character

for a long time and it's really only been the

I almost said modern era this isn't football

or baseball the most recent sort of era like

late 80s 90s and especially now in the 2000 that

Superman's kind of gone to Secondary status and

now it's kind of all about Batman Yeah, pretty

much and In terms of the comics, I mean they've

always had I shouldn't say always but for a very

long time again They had the JLA again. It was

1961 or so was a group of them a group of their

heroes getting together basically and the JLA

has been in DC comics really ever since and that

is you know Batman Superman Wonder Woman etc

etc and again in recent years, they're trying

to kind of get that out of the comic pages and

onto the silver screen, which has not exactly

gone too well for them, but that's sort of their

other big title that they've been synonymous

forever with. So I mean, they were founded on

Superman. Just to be blunt about it, Batman was

always popular, but never the way he is now.

And in terms of the comics, I mean, Batman's

still their biggest seller on a regular basis.

But I mean, Justice League sells well for them.

Green Lantern sells well. Superman still sells

depending on who's writing it. It's been a bit

up and down over the past few years. But for

the most part, he's still one of their main characters

and he always will be. I mean, Man of Steel kind

of proved that. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't

Superman Batman and Wonder Woman the big three

of the company? That's what they call them. Yeah,

but let's be honest as much as I Will get on

this in a little bit, but DC has trouble in terms

of keeping female readers and using female characters

Effectively and as much as the big three should

be those three Green Lanterns really been their

other flagship title for the last good chunk

of time, really ever since Geoff Johns took it

over all those years ago now. That's nothing

against Green Lantern. Again, like I said, one

of the issues DC's always had is trying to do

well by female characters and we'll definitely

get into that with the relaunch because that

has been probably the most punishing thing they've

ever done to female characters with an awful

lot of papers being written about it and It hasn't

gone well for them particularly characters like

starfire That they've done really badly with

Harley Quinn's another one. Oh God starfire,

I can only think of oh god something Michael

my buddy Michael Wilson showed me. Oh god starfire

They took her from like a superpowered heroine

to She's I'm trying to find like the best wording

that's not gonna get me into trouble on this

She explicit podcast you can I know but I mean

she dress skin dresses She can't dress in like

anything that covers up any part of her body

anymore magically since the relaunch and she

sleeps with anything that has a pulse Including

tentacles. Yeah and harlow Harley compared Harley

compared her vagina to a clown car so and That's

not a joke. That's an actual like they use that

as a joke in one of the issues So in terms of

female empowerment, they're not doing too. Well

on The starfire fire lovely. Yeah, why at Harley?

Yeah, some of the other ones they've they've

done. Okay with it's just They've you know, I

said earlier it depends on her that like Like

you said with Superman, it depends on who the

writer is. For me, it's the same way. It depends

on who's writing the story. Gale Simone's the

only one. I know that's what you're getting at.

She's one of the only ones that writes the female

characters competently. I mean, Wonder Woman,

they've been trying to get off the ground both

as a comic book really with a solid creative

team and on film and they just haven't had any

luck really with either. She's not a bad character.

It's just you need to do it the right way. It's

weird because I mean DC's animated group Oh,

man, talk about groups or parts of DC. They're

ticking me off lately. But anyway Yeah, we will

definitely get there. Anyway, their animated

group has done Wonder Woman really well over

the years I mean her depiction and pretty much

everything has been good Everything from like

the Batman Superman films to the actual Wonder

Woman film I mean if if they took that and turned

it into a live -action movie would actually probably

be quite good Yeah, probably would all right

We're gonna wind the clock back and we're gonna

take a quick break and then we're gonna come

back and talk about DC before the relaunch the

the main and maybe somebody other than me will

talk No, all right fine Yeah. We all know, dude,

you have to carry every show you're on. No, I

don't. What the hell? Yes, you do. We'll be back

after this. Any minute now, Brainiac will explode.

And guess what? You're going with him. No, Darkseid.

To get off this rock, you'll have to go through

me. You really are a glutton for punishment.

Time and again I've beaten you, humbled you.

What makes you think today's outcome will be

any different? Because this time, I won't stop

until you're just a greasy smear on my fist.

Let's go. DC Comics, in the olden days. I look

at some of the old comics now, and I'm so glad

I did not actually get into comics until last

year. Man, I'm actually so glad to hear you say

that, and that's what you want me to say. I look

at like, like specifically like TV specials that

DC has done or like these, you know these, the

only one I can think of is like... And this still

bugs me to this day. I mean, I know that the

dude create You know was Marvel and created spider

-man and all that stuff But it's like why is

Stan Lee there was a couple of DC things that

I've seen Stanley in and I'm trying to think

okay The dude is big in comics, but why is he

on a DC special feature? I didn't I didn't understand

that didn't get that but some of these special

features that go back specifically the Dark Knight

rises special feature where they Do the chronology

of the Batmobile? Some of those early issues

How is how do people enjoy that art all right,

well I it's not even the art necessarily I'd

point to it's fine You probably thought I was

joking when I said that what I said a few minutes

ago or seconds ago. I really wasn't When you

asked me for like comics to get into the Punisher

for example There was no chance in hell. I was

going with the 80s stuff the, listen, I enjoy

it for what it is and some of the stories like

Mark Barron and some of the others are very solid,

but the art is exceptionally dated and we're

talking about an era that's only 20 years ago,

but I mean, the art is dated. Because the art

is the way it is there's a lot of exposition

and pointless explaining and I mean the issues

are just filled with that and it gets worse the

further you go back and I'm bringing all this

up because I mean DC is known for a sort of being

the Silver Age company the you know, the Golden

Age of comics and when everybody, you know was

first invented basically And going back and reading

those now is a real slog. I mean, it's kind of

neat from, gee, this is the history standpoint,

but it's just not good reading, unfortunately.

Don't want to say the modern era is perfect because

I mean the 90s were the 90s were really the dark

ages of comics like Spider -man had the Clone

Wars which is awful Marvel actually as a whole

they had the onslaught saga, which is still known

as the worst crossover of all time you know and

DC kind of reset themselves back towards the

60s in that time and That was also a mistake.

So It's funny to hear you say that, but I mean,

I look back at it and I guess I just don't have

the rose -colored glasses. But it's really better

now in a lot of ways. Just like the Transformer

comics, I love a lot of the 80s stuff. But overall,

the stuff coming up now is better quality. I

guess the exception would be Furman's stuff from

the 80s still holds up well. But I mean, I read

and I appreciate him because he came up with

a lot of the characters. But Budianski's stuff

is not great. Yeah. And the thing with DC now,

it's like... You know I can I can appreciate

the old style but like like now specifically

They're doing digital first and then collective

editions of Batman 66 Which is a new ongoing

that a new team. They're basically having new

adventures with the old TV show art and style

I like that because I like the old TV show but

you know Just going back and seeing some of those

older comics and you know maybe maybe it's because

I wasn't into comics as a kid at all that I just

don't understand the silver age but I watched

like five episodes of Batman the brave and the

bold and I'm like wow this is the silver age

this is not my Batman because it was like he

time traveled or he went to a different planet

and I'm thinking yes he is the goddamn Batman

but even he can't do that Yes, I've seen Justice

League where he's done it, but it's just in that

whole style I just didn't care for it, but Steve

where did you start with the old the original

DC continuity? Where I started with it was in

the early 90s. I started reading Just prior to

the and I was collecting the detective comics

and some of the various bat lines at the time

and it was Just before Nightfall started and

I read through that and I and while I did enjoy

it the art was Not nearly as good as it is now

By any means Color or more graphically the stories.

Yeah, they were good to some degree, but there

was still a lot to be desired While I enjoyed

a lot of that And while there there there have

been some masterpieces from back then like You

know the Dark Knight Returns and and things like

that while I'm not a big fan of the the art of

the book I like the story of the book so I mean

there's a lot of a lot of instances where You

could have good stories and and not very good

art I understood that some of it was meant to

be very rough and gritty and not supposed to

be very clean, but they've managed to capture

all that and actually have an image that looks

proper. If you're getting into the classic stuff,

a lot of it from the 80s, it's... The artwork

doesn't necessarily hold up, but it's solid enough

to move things along. And then the story is just

the standout. And if you're talking about sort

of classic DC stuff from the 80s, Alan Moore's

Swamp Thing, which I recently reread, is 20 years

ahead of its time and still like one of the best

runs in the history of any comic book. And then

you're getting into other stuff. Neil Gaiman's

Sandman. most notable, another late 80s property.

You mentioned Dark Knight Returns, Year One,

and then Watchmen, which is one of the most important

books ever published. DC branched out in the

80s with a lot of really interesting and different

titles and innovative stuff at the time. They

started pushing the envelope. They had DC Vertigo

stuff would start up at that point. I mean well

vertigo technically didn't start until the 90s

but some of the titles that ended up on them

were started in the 80s and You know the DC vertigo

stuff overall. You really can't go wrong with

any of it So I mean in terms of the classics

they had quite a few classic stories in terms

of the characters not necessarily I mean with

Batman they had like Dark Knight returns is kind

of an alternate universe tale year one as well

to a certain extent but In terms of stories that

were in continuity for them. There wasn't a lot.

I mean nightfall was popular I don't know if

I'd call it a classic or not we had death and

return of Superman with doomsday, which was varying

degrees of successful as well, so I don't know.

The Alan Moore stuff in the 90s continued to

be amazing. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,

Promethea, Tom Strong, his stuff was just amazing

start to finish. They had a lot of different

stuff. People Forget, Road to Perdition came

from that era. Yeah. I find it so comical that

everyone refers to - Comical? Oh, sorry. Yes,

comical that everyone returned - refers to death

and return of superman like the greatest thing

ever it was not they would not have killed him

if lois and clark the new adventures of superman

didn't marry them on the show originally uh in

the comics and i've seen this on the special

features on the lois and clark dvds they said

that in the comics they were originally going

to get married in the comics but because the

tv show was doing it at the time in 93 94 they're

like i will just kill him The comics the best

is the video about that though I know Elijah

would which is fantastic anyone who hasn't seen

it go to YouTube and look up death and return

of Superman But I you know I That was one of

those things that it was the first time I had

ever really seen a comic book on news. Like,

nowadays, and this will be a future GeekCast

radio episode, nowadays, everything is news.

From entertainment people to just everything

is news. It's not just politics, weather, sports,

or, you know, hey, this person got murdered on

4th Street today. It's just every single thing

is news, especially in today's age with Twitter

and Facebook and... That stuff but I remember

the stories. I remember seeing this on an actual

news broadcast back then when They it was a it

was a huge event in everyone's life and it was

like remember when killing comic book characters

was new Yeah, Jean Grey dies every three weeks

now Well, she can always just rise out of the

ashes well, and that's one of those things that

that DC kind of set in motion that everybody's

copied since and they've done it to just about

every major character with their their death

of superman yeah i mean i'm sure there were other

ones before that that i'm not familiar with but

that was the the the first mainstream one that

they just kind of went haywire with and then

everybody started doing it afterward There's

three that everybody remembers. I mean, that's

one of them the other big one was earlier Jason

Todd's death and then and then of course everyone

remembers the iconic cover with Cyclops holding

the deceased Jean Grey From the phoenix saga.

Those are sort of like the three classic stories

involving a death that most people remember.

Yeah Was there I know I'm crossing over and I

should ask you this in the Marvel episode was

there ever a comic that Don't know. Okay. We've

all seen the death of Uncle Ben, but I mean was

there Is there a starting point in spider -man

that? Depicts that in the old comics. Oh, yeah

Okay, I I'm nuts. I'm not up on Marvel a lot

of stuff. So but I mean, yeah, it's you know

It was it was literally the start of spider -man.

So Well, yeah, I understand that. We see it in

the movies. We see it in the animated shows now.

It was just kind of commonplace. Okay, Uncle

Ben dies. It happens pretty much the same way

in the comics. Yeah. And that's the other thing

about death in comics. Steve has said to me,

oh, watch, they'll revive your most hated character

in a couple years. That kid needs to stay dead.

With the whole Jason Todd thing, I find that

DC is very sadistic. Because they're like, we

want you to vote. Should we kill him or keep

him alive? Everybody called in and voted kill

him. Not everybody. It's a lot closer than people

remember. It was big at the time. I mean it had

never really been nobody had really tried anything

like that and it was cool for a long time because

the things that you always said were the three

certainties in comics are that Uncle Ben is dead.

Jason Todd is dead and Oh, man, what the hell

was the other one? I think it might have been

Barry Allen was the third one everybody listed

But of course since then two of those have come

back Yeah, yeah, pretty much No You know DC has

had an amazing amazing run Yeah, sure now a lot

of the stories might not hold up, but there's

still interest like well down the line here in

the pullback We're definitely gonna have a Batman

spotlight and we're gonna go through several

different Story arcs of you could spend a show

just on Batman Dark Knight Returns your one Long

Halloween. Yeah. Oh Yeah, you're going or not

that'll be at least three different episodes

Now, to be fair, though, I just listed some of

the ones, too. Everybody remembers Watchmen changing

the entire industry significantly. Sandman is

still known as one of the best series ever. One

that I never seem to mention that I desperately

need to because it's one of my favorite writers.

Again, from DC Vertigo, there was Garth Ennis'

Preacher, which is another one. When people list

their top three comics of all time, it's usually

Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher. except for those

of us who've never read that stuff. No, but I'm

saying in general for the long timers, you'll

hear one or two, sometimes all three of those

every single time. Now, Ryan, nowadays you're

not that much of a DC guy. Were you ever, I mean,

I know we did your whole Origins episode, but

that was very long ago. Were you ever big on

DC back in the original continuity? Oh, yeah.

Where did you start? DC wise I mean I started

like reading Superman and stuff when my brother

had it in terms of when I got into it it's when

I started a job at a bookstore and One of the

other guys there at the time I was reading only

mostly Marvel stuff One of the other guys there

was the opposite and so I started hearing recommendations

and everything from him. This is roughly the

year 2002 or so and so yeah, I just started collecting

everything I could I think it's started with

oh No, I started with green arrow oddly enough

and then Sort of went out from there I picked

up all that I already had like most of the classic

quote -unquote Batman stories And I just sort

of went on from there and now I've got a whole

ton of pretty much all of the characters Yeah

What are So we've got the modern age now and

we've got Did they how often before the actual

relaunch? How often did is DC didn't pull a marble

every few months and reset, right? They continued

their continuity up until new 52. No, they continued

a lot of it actually At least towards the end

right A lot of it intertwined between things.

They were kind of, in essence, kind of mixing

all their different franchise characters and

having them do a lot of crossovers between the

death of Batman and the return of Batman and

the... Trust me, DC rebooted their characters

just as many times. There's no winner in this

war, unfortunately. Well, how they rebooted them

was different, though. They didn't, like, start

over the numbering and everything. They would

figure out, I mean, they would kill off a character,

go on with another character for a while, and

then figure out some way to revive the original

character and take back over and kind of be like,

oh, boom, we're back to the beginning. The gist

of sort of like the idea of them rebooting everything

really started when Johns came in. and this is

going to sound bad even though I'm sort of a

fan of his but it became apparent pretty early

on that Jeff Johns was just sort of doing his

fan fiction in a lot of ways. He's a talented

writer but he very much wanted things the way

he remembered or he grew up and using those characters

from the 60s. And in a lot of ways that was a

big mistake because the majority of comic readers

grew up with the characters that were there now.

I grew up not knowing Barry Allen as the Flash.

I knew Wally West and some of the others as Flash.

I grew up knowing Kyle Rayner and John Stewart

as Green Lantern. I wasn't really around for

the Hal Jordan stuff, but he came in and immediately

brought those back and then just completely shunted

everyone to the side. I don't think anybody got

the shaft. Oh, boy. Actually, it's a toss up

between who got the shaft worse, Wally West or

the absolute worst probably was Jon Stewart,

who at one point it looked like they were just

going to kill him off. And then DC just got pummeled

by a write -in campaign and everything else.

A lot of it based around the fact that, to be

absolutely blunt about it, Jon Stewart is basically

the only black DC character, which is another

sort of group that they've had trouble with over

the years, unfortunately. Outside of Cyborg.

Yeah. In terms of the long timers though. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah in terms of the long timers Yeah,

John Stewart not to mention I mean I like cyborg

But he's never been a huge part of the big teams

the way, you know Green Lantern is is one of

the founding members of the Justice League Yeah,

and the thing was cyborg is they They do him

in the in the DC universe movies in the animated

movies I find that he's done very well. As far

as his characterization. Yet, when you put him

with the Teen Titans, they make the biggest joke

out of him like you've never liked it. God, I...

I just can't stand Teen Titans in anything. Not

just the old 2004 cartoon series, not this new

crappy, anime -looking Teen Titans Go series.

I just don't. Oh my god. Ugh. I liked the original.

Good news though, you don't have to worry about

any of the old animated universe continuities

anymore. Yeah, pretty much. As we said, we'll

get into the animated stuff a little bit later.

Is there anything else we need to bring up about

the old continuity? No, I mean the Vertigo stuff.

They shuttered DC Vertigo years ago, which I

think was a huge mistake. They haven't found

a home for that stuff that's outside of what

they normally do. Some of it's still running,

obviously. Stuff like Fables is still going,

just not under the DC Vertigo brand. But it's

unfortunate because I look at the titles published

under DC Vertigo are some of the absolute best

and most different titles, comics out there ever.

I mean, Transmetropolitan is one of my all -time

favorite series. If you're DC now, where the

hell do you publish something like that? That's

basically a send -up of the modern media. There's

no place for it. Losing that, I think, was a

mistake. This was long before the new 52. I'm

not blaming that for it. I wish they still had

a branch. to do the sort of out there weird stuff,

although on the other hand, I mean, they're owned

by Warners. They have to turn a profit, so I

can understand not wanting to take a chance on

some of the odd stuff. Yeah, it's just crazy.

All right, before we head on into the relaunch,

Steve, what are your top three favorite DC stories?

Out of the old or the new? The old, the original

continuity. The old I'd have to say The Dark

Knight returns Just because I just recently read

that this year and I I really enjoy it For the

story alone and because of its influence on Batman

Since then I like the nightfall only because

you get to see the one of the first major falls

of Bruce Wayne and you to see as real John Paul

Valley take over temporarily and kind of go apeshit

more or less creating his own heavily armored

back uniform where he Manages to take down all

of the rogues Yeah, and that's because Batman's

backs broken and then of course the The whole

thing surrounding Bruce Wayne's death and revival

Just because He couldn't be killed by dark sides

omega beams they got He got teleported to the

past and I gotta say if no matter how big a fan

you are of the recent stuff You if you had to

pick three Overall DC stories. There's no chance

in hell anyone picks any of the new stuff There's

well, that's why I said the old no I know I'm

just saying like in general like when he when

you get us when I have to sit here and Look back

at all of the stuff. There's tons of great. There's

tons of great stories That's what I'm trying

to say not the opposite way around. It's just

there's so much stuff For me, I will go already

mentioned a bunch of the big ones Oh, God, it's

so hard not to put Watchmen on this list, but

I'm going to cheat just so I can mention some

other books that I really liked. Long Halloween,

mostly because pretty much every modern depiction

of Batman and his villains come from that. If

you're a Batman fan, you need to own that book.

It's also where Two -Face and his origins come

from. It's not numbered, hell with it. Transmetropolitan,

just to bring it up again. Then my other story,

I'm going to go off the grid and say Tower of

Babel, which was turned into an okay movie in

Doom, but the thing with Tower of Babel that

was awesome was it was one of the early times

when we got a real shot of how incredibly dangerous

Batman actually is. For people who don't know,

quickly to sum it up. Ra's al Ghul has Talia

steal Batman's files from the bat computer and

uses them to systematically eliminate every man

member of the Justice League and It is fantastic

Yes, yes, it is and Ra's al Ghul is way cooler

than Vandal Savage. Oh, yeah hands down They

should have done it the original way. I know

so and a spit and with David Warner as Ra's al

Ghul Oh They should have done it with him. Oh

geez don't get me started on what's happening

there. What the hell two in like what a week?

Two in two weeks. I know that that's nice. Yeah,

it's depressing Alright, we're gonna take a quick

break. You're gonna hear a word from Darkseid

himself. We'll be back Let's talk about the new

52 after this Impressive. No one has ever avoided

my Omega Beam. That all really happened? Think

so. Then we won. Everything's back to normal?

That's a nasty cut, John. You don't remember

going on a mission with us today, do you? I just

got here. The timeline's restored to equilibrium.

We're the only two people who remember what happened.

Now we're going to talk about the very much controversial,

pretty much put a dividing line down the DC fandom,

the new 52 which is a 2011 revamp and relaunch

by DC Comics of its entire line of ongoing monthly

superhero books in which all of its existing

titles were cancelled and 52 new series debuted

in September 2011 with new first issues. Now

the only Changes they did not make They did not

fully revamp Green Lantern and they did not fully

revamp Batman because oh We've already had stories

going on for the past year for these well Don't

get me started on the Batman continuity. That's

It's one of those things that Just getting off

on my tangent now and getting on my soapbox this

has been one of my pet peeves for the entire

New 52 run. When the New 52 first relaunched

and they had their 52 different lines and everything

and I started collecting some of them before

I got bored and then going back to it later,

I figured out something with the Batman line.

Not only did they manage to continue some of

the Batman ink, Storyline from pre -new 52 and

some of the other plot lines going on in the

regular Batman detective comics and all the other

Various lines that they have. I don't know the

eight that Batman's in They Screwed up the timeline

with trying to redo his his origin and essence

They didn't allow for enough time because they

say that it's what? six years that batman's been

batman you're you're talking about the current

one -year storyline that's going to happen over

the next 10 months now well they say it's a six

now with with zero year yeah well they're saying

where episode where issue one starts it's six

years that he's been batman yeah which doesn't

take into account the fact that he's had nightwing

who was the first robin and it you know it it

clearly states that they've all been in that

position He was the first Robin. He became Nightwing.

Then you have Jason Todd, who became the second

one, became Red Hood. He died and came back.

Then you have Tim Drake, who eventually becomes

Red Robin. And then you have Damian Wayne, who's

10 years old. So this is where the whole thing

gets convoluted because it doesn't allow for

that 15, 20 year gap in there. It's six years

and somehow he's had a child with with talia

who would have never even associated with him

if it weren't for the fact he was batman so you

have this 10 year old kid on top of it and then

all this all these previous robins and it makes

no flipping sense yeah it really doesn't and

it's one of those things where now that we are

through as of this recording we are three issues

into zero year scott snider and greg capulose

uh... epic year -long event that they're doing

in the current new fifty two batman issue and

it just like when they first started talking

about this i saw interviews with the two of them

scott snider was the writer said that this is

technically the year before year one and you're

gonna see bits and pieces of the origin that

you that you've never seen before yet If this

is supposed to be building up to him becoming

Batman, why, in issue 21, is he in a purple -and

-gray suit on a friggin' motorcycle? And it goes

back to what you just said. It's supposed to

be six years earlier from the current End of

Death of the Family storyline, and it just makes...

God, I'm really... We'll bring this up in the

pullback episode 27 when we have a full review

of Batman 23, but Batman 22 and 23 so far I'm

let down I I just I Don't know so other new 52

stuff Batgirl is back she's they basically wrote

out Alan Moore's killing joke I know I still

need to read that I want to read that to see

what happened I mean I know the Joker shot her

I get it but I want to you know see how that

story pans out and she becomes Oracle and now

some is there a story look because I thought

the zero the number zero issue for Batgirl would

have told us the story of how she They're going

to actually bring that up in another issue. There's

going to be a one -issue shot or something. Yeah,

issue 25, zero year, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, I

wanted to know the story of how she ... In Batgirl

number one for the new 52, it says that she worked

her way up, she had physical therapy and surgery

and whatever else, but I still want to see that.

Ryan knows and you know as well, Steve, how I'm

... a glutton for punishment of I need to see

the beginning of something. A lot of the issues

that I have and I think a lot of people have

with the new 52 could have been alleviated really

easily and that is if they just decided to just

make it a reset. I think comic book fans are

used to that at this point. So I mean just make

it a reset but instead what they did was they

picked and chose certain things to decide that

okay this happens, this didn't, this is important,

this is not. And I think to a lot of fans, that

was more offensive than just doing a total restart.

And that's kind of where it went wrong. I think

the timeline issues would have been alleviated

if you just say, you know what, this is just

a relaunch. Yeah. And the other thing is, I remember

before I even got into this, before I even picked

up Batman 13, was that I kept hearing, oh, the

new 52. They're throwing out the previous 70

years of continuity and I'm thinking, what? Like

you said, it would probably be better for a relaunch

versus just hitting the reset button versus putting

on a full on relaunch. I don't know though. I

think for me in certain titles that I read, I

don't know if I can go back. read the other ongoings

of say Batgirl or Nightwing or you know sure

I can read a trade paperback or something like

that but I I'm really specifically those two

titles honestly Batgirl and Nightwing easily

for me personally are the two best titles DC

has going right now they just are the storytelling

the art it's all so it's done so damn well what

other new 52 stuff are you Paying attention to

or interested in Ryan. I mean, it's still reading

the Batman stuff paying attention to it I like

well, basically anything that Scott Snyder is

doing Jeff Lemire is one of the better remaining

writers That's sort of one thing I didn't I should

have gotten into too Is that the shift or the

decision to move to the new 52 resulted in an

awful lot of my favorite writers leaving the

company Which was a colossal loss, especially

since they went straight over to Marvel Marvel

yeah, and I mean one of them has had now the

The comic that's been named book of the year

two years running now. So oops Probably shouldn't

have let Wade leave They also lost I mean Brew

Baker they had lost a couple years before but

he knew what was coming and that's why and then

Rucka left with Wade Oops, so yeah that hurt

them badly but in terms of remaining ones, I

still read those two I like gaze Gail Simone

a lot. I just don't always get around to reading

her titles, unfortunately Because I'm lazy Yes,

yes, you are no not really I just I don't even

I only have a finite amount of time so Right

what is true? Uh -huh Yeah, like I need to get

around to reading her other titles outside of

Batgirl But I'm just so engrossed in that book

that that's right now. That's all I want to read

As of this recording, I just wrote up my Batgirl

23 review and I'm like, in the final thoughts,

I'm like, why can't this be a weekly series?

Because it's like, I want more now. Outside the

timeline issues, I don't... I don't have that...

Many complaints about the new 52 again. I'm pretty

much one of those people that's coming into it

new as it's happening I you know as I've said

before in this episode in the last 24 episodes

of the show I haven't you know I wasn't into

comics in them, you know in the beginning in

the olden days, so What I do really enjoy specifically

to basically my favorite male character at DC

Comics, which is Nightwing I really love how

Kyle Higgins is doing this whole backwards storytelling

with the history of Gotham. It really started,

at least for me, it started in Gates of Gotham

with him and Snyder. And it's just interesting

to see the juxtaposition of Gotham in the 1800s

and Gotham quote unquote nowadays. I really do

like that, and I like where that character is

going. Hopefully he'll get an issue 26 because

there are rumors that after Forever Evil he will

be forever affected. I just hope to God they

don't shoot him and put him in a wheelchair.

He's dead. Quiet, you. uh... steve what else

do you want to say about the new fifty two the

other thing i i have found quite funny is they

launched this this fifty two line and they had

all these stories that they thought would be

great and then they've managed to cancel i don't

know close to twelve of their previous uh...

stories and then relaunch other stories to replace

them so they can continue having fifty two different

stories going at the same time They've had trouble

keeping creative teams. I mean Green Arrow is

the absolute best example of that. He had Just

constant change on that title and nobody stayed

on it and it was terrible for the first chunk

of time Now they finally got a solid team that's

working with it monthly But I mean overall I

wouldn't say The thing that bothers me the most

is a lot of the stories could have been told

in the old universe. There wasn't necessarily

a great reason to reset it yet, but the other

hand I do like that it has gotten people like

Mike and some others into reading comics, so

I'm not certain that the good outweighs the bad

but I mean, I don't know time's gonna tell on

that so I Think for me with the constant consistent

changes and not having consistent creative teams

on books again specifically to Batgirl and Nightwing

Batgirl started out with Adrian. I don't even

I don't even know how to say his Scythe I guess

is how you say his last name Started out with

him and then it went to three or four different

people then it went to three or four different

people and now it's up to the current team which

is pretty much been on since Simone came back

Which is something else. I'll bring up in a second.

Same thing with Nightwing. Nightwing started

out with Eddie Barrows and went through, I think,

until issue 14 or 15, and that's all well and

good, and that's great for consistency style.

And I think, I don't know, but I think something

happened in Barrow's life personally. I don't

know if he got sick or what it was, but he left

the book, and then you had like three or four

different artists come in, like issue 16, 17,

18, and 19. He didn't want to kill off Nightwing.

Funny. Jackass. And then, you know, by issue,

you know, 18 and 19, you had Brett Booth on for

a while. And then I really liked his style and

how he drew the characters and everything else

in the book. And then, oh, wait, no, he's only

on... I don't like this whole run of having...

Okay, sure. From the beginning, it's been Kyle

writing. And that's great. You know, that's...

As long as that doesn't change, I will be happy,

and I don't think it will, hopefully. But I don't

like how you have the inconsistency of artists

on books. I don't understand why they constantly

change up the artists on some of their issues.

I'm sure it's not just DC that does this. When

we do the Punisher stuff, Greg Rucka's Punisher

run had a couple of substitute artists. That

was a little different in that. At one point,

Chicharu was sick, and then at another point,

he had to leave because of personal reasons.

Just some stuff with his family, combined with

just a massive workload within Marvel. Unfortunately,

that seems to be the nature of the business nowadays.

Same with delays. There used to be the old joke

about DC not being able to put out a comic on

time. Then it became Marvel, especially with

the legend that was Ultimate Wolverine versus

the Hulk and that amazing seven -year hiatus,

one of the greatest delays in the history of

comics. Now it just seems to be both of them

frequently missing dates. It's both of them and

IDW as well IDW has got sort of an excuse I mean

in that they are smaller and it's a lot fewer

people they have to move around and to work on

these things, but yeah, it's Well like originally

There was a one of their transformers titles

that was supposed to come out on a certain date

and then it got moved up to This week and now

it's moved it back to the end of the month and

I'm thinking Really? You can't pick a friggin

date to release your book Really? Come on now.

As a side note, I know this happens every single

time I start talking about DC. I open up like

a page that I've got bookmarked. That's a list

of all the stuff. It's all the stuff that DC

Vertigo published. And every time I look at it,

I'm like, holy shit, how could you ever close

this down? I always there's so many I forget

about obviously like swamp thing 100 bullets

is one I didn't mention that is one of the greatest

series of all time Sandman Hellblazer, which

I didn't mention oops DMZ another amazing one.

Obviously I mentioned preacher and transmit why

the last man another amazing series American

vampire, which is just fantastic and still running

until January 2013 so yeah, I could just keep

going and going but oh, man Yeah, yeah, and it's

just one of those things where Yeah, that has

nothing to do with with the resets so like I

say I'm not blaming that and I don't actually

blame DC for it either like I said before It's

hard to take a risk on this stuff when you get

that big unfortunately Yeah All right Steve.

What are your top? Three doesn't have to be in

any order but top three DC new 52 titles that

you're enjoying Well, I would have to say that

for the most part I'm enjoying the detective

comics Run I'm enjoying the Batman line and then

I was collecting a massive multitude of other

bat comics or DC in general. But the other one

I'd have to say is Batman Beyond. Oh yeah. Just

for the fact that it keeps touching on the animated

series content. Which is going now. No it's not.

They're gonna be bringing it back. Yeah I know.

I mean the comic series is gonna keep it going

but of course the animated films have now famously

moved on. Yeah they've kind of fizzled out. The

new stuff here in terms of new stories, yeah

court of owls Was fantastic if we're talking

about individual stories Okay, Jeff Lemire's

run on Not Jeff Lemire. Damn it Snyder's run

on swamp thing as well was quite good and He

picked up a lot of the old threads from the more

stuff from way back when And I don't necessarily

have a third. I liked the changes. I'm going

by arcs, I should mention, not by runs. I like

the changes they've made with Green Arrow, and

it's become a fairly solid book on a regular

basis. So there's some of them that are getting

there. And I think that when the trades are out,

it'll read better than it does right now. Oh,

yeah. Yeah, I can tell you right now trades read

so much, but like single issues are great Don't

get me wrong. I've said this before on the show

single issues for me are great For the oh my

god. I need to read this now or else. I feel

like I'm being left out of it You know what I

mean? But as far as actually enjoying a story

the trades are so much better for me I Got to

say I only have two It's the two I've pretty

much said the entire episode Batgirl and Nightwing

those are the two that I really in early on in

Nightwing like Issue 8 9 10 and 11 There were

a couple of art things and couple of character

designs. I didn't care for But pretty much the

entire run's been damn good. Same thing with

Simone and Batgirl. Batman, I have yet to read

Court of Vowels. I'm waiting on the trade for

that. So I'm not judging it on that. I'm judging

it on starting with the Death of the Family storyline.

And Death of the Family ramped up, ramped up,

ramped up. And then nobody fucking died. And

then they went over to Inc. Kill and some Batman

clone killed. Well, it was Damien's enhanced

clone, right? He killed himself Yeah, yeah, it's

pretty much a form of suicide and I just I can

I cannot bring myself to put Batman as a top

three title because While I enjoy it to a certain

extent right now in zero here, oh my god It's

It's like someone trying to Take a slow drag

on a cigarette where there's nothing there's

no tobacco left in the cigarette It's just one

of those things where it's like oh my god do

something already All right, we're gonna take

another quick break we're gonna come back we're

gonna talk about the animated stuff We'll also

talk about a little bit of the film stuff since

this is a DC episode I know it's not technically

comics, but you get the idea. We'll be back after

this Is this thing on? Oh goody! Why hello there!

It's your dear old Uncle Joker here. I bet you're

asking yourself, what could I be possibly doing

here of all places? Well, I'm laughing at the

fact that this new podcast presented by Keycast

Radio is called Legends of the Dark Knight. Who

the heck knew the Bat was so popular? Ugh! Join

Steve, Mike, and sometimes Taylor for reviews

on the greatest DC animated universe, Cartoon,

to ever meet Gotham City! So join moi for the

talk of the town! Or I'll send Captain Cloud

after you. He gets mighty angry when he doesn't

get to have his garbage skull. So put on a nice

big smile. And join us for the next Geekcast

Radio Network Popcast. Legends of the Dark Knight!

Disgrace to the name Joker why in my day Here

kid, I think you lost this I could have handled

him coulda woulda didn't You sound just like

Batman I'm nothing like him Yeah, right. The

mask, the attitude, the long underwear. Drop

it! I'd love to know what happened between you

two. Things change. Alright, so we're going to

talk about the animated stuff a little bit and

the movie stuff as well. The DC Animated Universe

apparently is dead. according to Brian not yet

but they have no plans anyway in terms of upcoming

they want to do the more recent stuff rather

than any of the old and basically like they don't

want to do any free new 52 items anymore they'll

do a bit of alternate universe stuff but for

the most part it's all going to be I mean they

sort of retired the animated universe and when

I say that I mean like the Justice League Batman

Beyond Batman the animated series the one continuity

essentially and that sucks Yeah, I mean see this

the thing it's like Okay, the DC animated universe

pretty much ended with Justice League and Batman

You know if you go chronologically Batman Beyond

was the end of it, but With Batman Beyond now

at the name of 2 .0. They're continuing it with

digital stories and again My current favorite

male writer Kyle Higgins has taken that over

and I absolutely love he's only there's only

one chapter his story out so far But I love what

he did with it But yeah, I mean, it's a shame

that they're not gonna go back to that style,

and I think one of the reasons why they're not

gonna go back to it is because Bruce Timm is

no longer at Warner Bros. Well, I mean, the excuse

they're using is they want symmetry between the...

between the lines and... Yeah, I can sort of

understand that but I just I think it's a huge

mistake to just skip out on Years of really classic

works. I mean people loved seeing Dark Knight

Returns in year one animated I think a lot of

people love to see Killing Joke a huge one that

I think could work really well as long Halloween

Since that's where the origin for a lot of the

characters that we see in media now for Batman

comes from so I don't know I just It's an odd

choice. Yeah, and as far as the DC Universe animated

original movies, we just had the release of Justice

League The Flashpoint Paradox, which was DC's

big ol' storyline that ended in the old continuity.

And then the first new 52 storyline will be Justice

League War. Let's go down the voice of talents,

because voice talents of Jason O'Mara as Batman.

Michelle Monahan as Wonder Woman. Christopher

Gorham as Flash. Alan Tuttick as Superman. I

cannot see that. Justin Kirk as Green Lantern.

Wait, why aren't they using, um, what's his name?

Fillion, they always use him. Nathan Fillion?

Yeah. Shemar Moore as Cyborg and Steve Bloom

as Darkseid. That's the only voice I can get

behind. Okay, I can get behind Shemar Moore as

far as Cyborg goes. But I cannot wait to hear

what Steve Blum does with Darkseid. Um, Jason

O'Mara, the only thing I've seen him in, and

this is kinda sad, is the One for the Money film

based on the Janet Ivanovich book. And he doesn't...

I've heard his voice. It doesn't sound like a

good... I don't know what he's gonna do to change

it, obviously, in this new film, but, like, he

just... His voice just, to me, doesn't sound

like, uh... anything Batman would be at all.

The other one they have upcoming, because on

July 20th of this year, as part of Comic Con,

DC Comics announced on Twitter a new animated

feature, Son of Batman, the film will be based

on Grant Morrison's Batman and Son storyline.

So yay, we get to see fucking Damien Wayne on

a fucking movie. Great. I won't be getting that.

I don't care if Conroy does come back for the

voice. And it doesn't say anything about a voice

cast for this, but... The other decision I'm

not a fan of is the announcement that this will

also supposedly mean they're going to rotate

the voice cast and try to use celebrity voices

when possible, which I'm not a fan of because...

That usually proves to be an epic fail anyway.

Yeah, and not to mention... DreamWorks, majority

of DreamWorks films that have celebrity voices

fail. Not to mention, they already have a fantastic

group of voice talent that they used to use regularly

or that they can swap out. The other one that

was announced is Batman Assault on Arkham. Again,

July 20th this year as part of Comic Con. DC

Comics announced on Twitter a new animated feature,

Batman Assault on Arkham. The film will take

place in the same universe as the Warner Brothers

Batman Arkham video game franchise. That's going

to be slightly interesting. Yeah, which has potential.

Well, I think they have to if they're going to

continue if they're going to have it in that

universe I mean, that's who voiced him for the

other games and then oh god, how Roger Craig

Smith is the car. All right. Let's hope nobody

important No offense is listening to this or

else I'm gonna get in trouble, but having played

a good chunk of origins He is doing a terrible

Kevin Conroy impression They should have just

gotten conroy it's baffling to me why they have

them and i mean maybe they're gonna touch up

the voice and fix it for the final version but

i mean what i've gone through it doesn't sound

good i'd question that decision yeah that uh...

and originally i thought when i first uh... when

i first saw the the trailer the little teaser

thing where he didn't really speak i thought

the grunts were um uh conroy but it wasn't i

knew it wasn't conroy and i i could tell he was

trying to imitate a bad copy of him and when

you know that conroy has the ability to being

that he's a voice actor pitch his voice lower

or deeper depending on the age of his character

being that he has played Younger Bruce Wayne

and he has played a you know, a younger Batman

the modern Batman and then an old Batman Yeah,

it just it makes more sense to actually just

keep him Rather than try and get an imitation

like I could see the Mark Hamill replacement

Being that they were looking for somebody to

do an imitation and do it younger Being that

Hamill doesn't want to do the role anymore. So

I could get that but having a guy that pretty

much known for playing Batman and everyone loves

his portrayal of it. Why replace him? Yeah, and

I do know that Hamill has gone on record saying

the only way he would come back to the voice

is if they did killing joke Which sadly it doesn't

look like they're gonna be doing that As far

as the live -action scope of DC, let's face it

the last 40 years It's been Batman and Superman

movies. You know? We've got Man of Steel 2 coming

up in 2015, supposedly Justice League the same

year, and then in 2016 they're gonna supposedly

be doing a Flash film. Don't get me r - it depends,

like Ryan said earlier, his Flash is Wally West.

Same as mine. I didn't even know - I knew of

the Flash in the old TV series, but it wasn't

something I cared about. at all. Even when I

watch Flashpoint Paradox. Okay, it's Barry. Okay,

it's Iris. That's great. Okay, it's an interesting

story. I wanna know what the hell's going on

with Batman and why is he firing a fucking gun.

You know, that, I just... Again, I haven't read

any of the flash comics So obviously I'm not

gonna sit here and judge them on their story

or whatever else cuz I've never read them But

flash isn't a character until Justice League

that I actually cared about and I haven't cared

about flash since because they're all about Hey,

it's Barry. I don't give a shit about Barry.

I'm sorry. I don't you know if they start doing

Wally West stories Hey, I'm on board. I'm all

for it. That's why I think the shift was a a

bit of a mistake. There's a lot of people in

that boat and a lot of people who grew up with

the Justice League cartoon series that have no

idea who Barry or Hal are. The final thing we're

going to talk about is the current run. Batman

Beyond Unlimited, which is now in print, is Batman

Beyond Universe. Adam Beecham, Norm Brayfold

started out with Batman Beyond Unlimited. They

told the story of the 10 ,000 clowns to begin

with, and then after that, they did the under

cloud storyline. Since that time, they've relaunched

it digitally called Batman Beyond 2 .0. Kyle

Higgins is on the writing. I don't know who...

I think it's Tony Silas that is doing the art

on that. Yeah, that's right. And Kyle, because

Kyle loves the animated universe... just like

most of us do. He's really gonna do some interesting

things with Batman Beyond 2 .0 and the storyline

picks up one year after Joker Night from Adam's

story. I'm just loving that and it took me almost

two weeks, Steve, to figure out how that first

chapter ended and what was actually going on.

Oh my god. Nice. I so totally didn't get it.

I was like, hey, there he is. And oh, wait. Oh

my god, which I'll talk to you about that off

air. Like I said, anything in the Bat family

that Kyle does, I will read. Honestly, he's got

some of the best writing out there. Same thing

with Gail Simone. I'm so glad that we had the

internet outcry to get her rehired. Because that

was just one crappy situation right there that

made that was You bring in a new editor and he

fires you via email. That's that's messed up

But yeah, the internet wins everything Ryan's

not a fan of the internet winning everything.

No, I just it doesn't always happen and sometimes

it doesn't always work out well Yeah, that's

true Anything else we need to bring up about

DC Comics or DC Entertainment or anything like

that Ryan nothing I can think of I mean the live

-action stuff. We've all heard all the rumors.

Nobody seems to know Exactly what's going to

happen? I mean Superman Batman's probably up

next but now it won't be legendary working on

it supposedly Supposedly, they've thrown a ton

of money at Christian Bale and he's refused.

They'll probably try to find somebody new. The

casting for Lex Luthor seems to be down to Mark

Strong or Bryan Cranston. Either would be fantastic

choices. Well, Krantz... You ass, you stole my

line! He would be a good Jim Gordon, but if there's

one thing Krantz has now proven, it's that he

can act in pretty much anything. I mean, he went

from Hal to... Freaking Walter White and then

don't forget last summer when he was in Argo

Drive He did three movies at once as well as

continuing his his turn as Walt which would earn

him another Emmy He couldn't do pretty much anything

at this point. I think so he's up there Mark

Strong is fantastic, too He's currently on AMC's

other show that follows Breaking Bad So you can

catch him on that, but he's an excellent actor

as well see I Know it won't happen, but I honestly

would not mind them bringing spacey back. I Honestly

wouldn't mind that he was the best thing about

Superman Returns and that's the problem though.

I mean, yeah Yeah, too many people see it and

remember that and that's why as much as I hate

to say it it probably can't happen either because

There'd be too many too many people would go.

Oh, this must be the same Movie, I'm not gonna

go see it Yeah, exactly. All right, so Ryan,

if people would like to interact with you or

if you would like people to interact with you,

where can they do so? Why in God's name would

anyone want to interact with me? The best place

is probably Twitter. I'm just at nightbeat on

Twitter. All one word, N -I -G -H -T -B -E -A

-T. Steve, what about you? You can get a hold

of me on Twitter at scp21. All right, awesome

join Ryan and I next week when we will be reviewing

Hawkeye volumes one and two by Matt fraction

Kill me now. Oh, come on. It wasn't that bad.

Thank your great escape into comics We will see

you next week. What about the whole secret identity

thing? I mean, I trust you guys, but I'm not

sure I'm ready to Wally West Clark Kent Bruce

Wayne Show off Red hair it suits you you think

change now happy Call me when it's important

and not before gentlemen. It's been an honor

You still try to fight Can't you see that it's

hopeless quit as long as he can still draw breath.

None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a different

problem. I feel like I live in a world made of

cardboard, always taking constant care not to

break something, to break someone. Never allowing

myself to lose control, even for a moment, or

someone could die. You can take it, can't you,

big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity

for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful

I really am. You just heard the latest episode

of The Pullback, GCRN's comic book review podcast.

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