DC Comics The New 52: Then and Now

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for the ideals of peace and justice. What? Like

a bunch of super friends? More like a justice

league. Hello and welcome to the pull bag after

dark I am your host TF2 on Mike and joining me

is Steve Megatron. Hello. Hello and also returning

Sooner much sooner than I thought is Ryan from

star Joe's hello, sir. Hello I don't know if

that's meant to be a good thing or bad thing,

but But I'll take it either way Yeah, so but

yes, we are here and this time around in the

after dark lounge. We're gonna be talking about

DC Comics the new 52 yes, that's right in August

of 2011 DC said screw most of the 70 years of

continuity we have and let's relaunch yay I'm

still trying to figure out if it's a relaunch

a reboot or what what it is It's short -circuit,

too It's trying to figure out what the hell it

is. Yeah Yeah so All right each all three of

us have come at this at a very different way

and that's why I wanted Steve and Ryan on here

with me tonight with this because I Started in

a certain storyline Steve picked up issues here

and there Ryan went all in at discount bundle

for the first five issues of all 52 titles when

they started I'd say Ryan's diehard out of all

of us Well, you have to understand too. I read

DC for probably the last 20 some years Yeah,

and I'm very very steeped in DC the DC universe

So when they were relaunching when everyone else

is complaining because if you were losing all

that continuity I was kind of like alright, let's

see what they do with it. So And I'm kind of

the same way a little bit there's certain storylines.

I like certain storylines. I'm Not really looking

forward to seeing what happens anymore. I just

don't care Yeah, and I will I will say I think

that you know, we're looking at from two years

later I will say that I think Some titles have

stayed consistently good from the beginning some

titles kind of piggyback on what you're saying

there some titles have actually now that we're

two years later are actually starting to find

their legs underneath them and Some titles have

actually in my opinion kind of falling apart

from where they were previously so Well for me

and I've been he knows this but for me I always

blame Steve was like David the return of the

Joker death of the family you asshole. He's the

one that got me started on all this comic stuff

and It's true and I read death of the family

and I the first like 13 and 14 I was like, oh

that Wow, you know, I was like really shocked

and because I you know, I Read comics here and

there but I've never been long -term reader so

basically I'm one of those new readers now and

and by issue 15 I was like oh god won't they

just kill this Damien kid already oh my god most

annoying character ever at least in my opinion

um and then by 16 I was like oh okay cool 17

wait nothing happens what nobody actually dies

And I get it. I get what Snyder was going for.

The fact that the Joker felt that the other members

of the Bat family were dragging Batman down.

I get what he was trying to go for. But if you're

gonna have a storyline that says death of the

family, somebody should die in the storyline,

even if you do resurrect them by a Lazarus pit.

two years later. As Joker would say, it's sadly

anti -climatic. Yes, exactly. Well, and we kind

of talked about it before, Mike, was my problem

with it wasn't so much the death side of it.

I didn't care that there wasn't a death because

I interpreted it from the beginning exactly what

Snyder was going for, which is the family was

going to die. My big problem with it is the aftermath,

which is that the family hasn't died. You have

I mean, you still have Dick and Bruce talking

with each other. You still have Barbara and Dick

interacting with each other. If you really have

a death of the family, these characters should

not want to be interacting with each other anymore

after this story. At least for a year or two.

I mean, at least give us that. Yeah. No, but

DC was too focused on their second anniversary

spectacular month with the villains taking over.

Now... I wasn't around for the first year anniversary.

What did they do for the first year anniversary?

That was their zero year. So what they did was

they went 12, about 11 issues, 11, 12 issues.

And then they did a zero month where all the

titles were. Zero issues and they took place

of that's where the zero issues came from Okay,

and they took all those stories took place before

issue number one You didn't where they took place

before issue number one But some of them took

place right before issue one some took set, you

know several years before issue one But they

were meant to be a little bit more of an origin

story in most respects because that's what the

fans were complaining about was We're jumping

into this universe, but we don't know we're not

supposed to know these characters. So why don't

you tell us who these characters are? Yeah, yeah,

okay so they wow that's crazy they had a zero

year and now batman is doing his own damn zero

year and now we have villains month who knows

what the hell they're gonna do for the third

anniversary well they're actually gonna jump

five years in advance yeah that's that's true

futures and so we went back and now they're going

fast forward fast forward all right so yeah i

will say kind rewind I will say that when DC

did it before, where they jumped one year in

advance in the old DC universe, it was actually

pretty successful for them, and it actually gave

us a lot of really neat stories. I think the

reason specifically to Batman Beyond why they're

jumping five years now or coming up in 2014 is

that... As far as I can tell most everyone I

know loves reading the Batman Beyond title that

is outside of the new 52 That is solely stuck

in the DC animated universe. So If that's as

popular as I is what I've seen, you know from

other people that I've talked to then They're

gonna want to build on that and that's probably

why they're bringing it in I don't know And I

don't want to get too much on what they're about

to do, but I'm hoping that if they're going to

do this five years later jump, that it kind of

sticks. I hope it's not like five years later

for the next three, four months and now, or even

for another year and then retcon back. Yeah.

They're going to jump back to show you what happened

to lead up to the five years. And see, that's

the other thing is we're two years in and it

seems like It's all the universe is already so

convoluted. Why would you convoluted more or

if the five -year jump is gonna be? to erase

all this just Heart palpitations with all the

I haven't read all these books. I haven't read

all 52. I I base my stuff on characters and Unless

it's animated. I don't care about the Justice

League in comics. I'm sorry. I just don't I I

think that, you know, we're talking about, you're

saying like, I don't know why they're doing this

with all the convolution that they have, means

you obviously don't know DC very well. No, because

they need something so that they can organize

a Crisis on Infinite Earths or a Zero Hour or

something, some event so they can say, we're

going to fix all the mess we just made for ourselves

over the last several years. Which seems to be

what they do all the time Because crisis on infinite

earths was created to fix all the multiple universes

that everyone was confused about and they made

it all one universe then zero hour came out which

was meant to fix some of the timeline issues

that happened after crisis on infinite earths

that they didn't fix and then flashpoint was

supposed to launch into the new 52 which was

supposed to Fix all the mess that they had before

and just say screw it. We're starting all over

again. So DC's used to kind of making things

a big mess and then just making an event and

fixing it. Or trying to fix it. What are your

overall thoughts on New 52 so far, Steve? Overall,

I enjoy it. However, I have many pet peeves.

One of the very convoluted things that I just

I can't get over is the fact that it's supposed

to be a new continuity yet they keep calling

back to pre -New 52 stuff with no explanation

as to why. And when I say that, I mean, for instance,

the whole Bruce Wayne and having been Batman

X amount of years and somehow still having all

three Robins and having You know them all become

their alter egos and then having Damien Wayne

All within this short time span of like whatever

six years or something Yeah, so it makes not

a lick of sense on that I Started out reading

the new 52 when it hit issues one Funny thing

about it is before when I heard the news of the

new 52 coming out. I actually started reading

the Return of Bruce Wayne and finding out all

the stuff behind that beforehand I started catching

up on comics before that so I was a little bit

back into DC from the days of nightfall and all

that stuff when I originally was in it and With

the new 52 I was liking the aspect that they

were starting over with not a lot of you know,

convoluted crap from the last 70 some years,

but it seems like not only have they managed

to screw it up in the two and a half years that

they've been going, they've made it almost more

convoluted than it was before. So I started out

reading Legend of the Dark Knight, I started

out reading Detective Comics, Batman, Batman

Beyond, Batman and Robin, Batman Incorporated,

I got a little bit of Justice League. So I was

a little bit heavy on the Batman side and then

I realized that half the books were unnecessary

and crap. So I started narrowing my list down

smaller and smaller to the point that at this

point I would much rather read the Beyond or

the Detective Comics. I tried Injustice Gods

Among Us. Again, more stuff I didn't care about.

I think last pullback that I did, I can't remember

what it was, but there was a comic I read in

there that was pretty good. Justice League 3000.

Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, it was in episode

52. Yeah, like... And this is... I don't want

to veer over too far into the red with Marvel

and their whole crap, because this is about the

New 52 from DC, but it seems to me that Spider

-Man and Batman need to be everywhere in their

universes. They need to have at least four to

five, six, seven different books. And I just

don't get that. I just don't understand... why

you need Batman in so many damn books? I mean,

the same thing with, okay, sure, keeping up appearances

or keeping up tradition with Detective Comics,

great, fine, whatever. Same thing with Superman.

Why does Superman have to be in so many damn

different books? He's in his own title, he's

in action comics, he's in... Injustice to me

is a joke. The game looks great the I've never

played it, but what I've seen of it looks really

awesome But the comic series I thought that was

gonna be a five issue six issue miniseries leading

up to the start of the game not a 12 issue series

and Then now they're doing they're gonna be starting

in Justice year two It's like they're trying

to milk all this stuff out of one game and they

haven't even released this like I could see them

doing in Justice year two once they release or

if they're going to be coming up to release a

second damn video game. The reason for Injustice

being out as long as it is is because of the

success of it. Tom Taylor, the writer of it,

just, I mean, in my opinion, did a fantastic

job. I read like the first issue thinking, all

right, I'll check this out. I'm not big about

comics based on games. And I fell in love with

it simply because I'm used to the used to DC

doing the Elseworlds stories where anything could

happen. I mean, you don't have to worry about

Batman dying or Superman dying or Green Arrow

dying or somebody like that because it can happen

because it's not going to impact the main DC

universe. So I like stories sometimes where nobody's

safe or anything could happen. And that's what

it feels to me. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed

it. I just it just wasn't what i thought it was

going to be unlike because at least i don't know

the first six issues says that it takes place

at the the very very first page of the comic

says this takes place before the events of the

game and i'm like okay so it's a prequel that's

fine i don't have a system to play the game on

but i've seen the game played and i will you

know i like the game uh... The whole the first

six issues of the series to me felt like a very

very long Version of a better world from Justice

League Yeah, that's what it felt like to me with

the two the two different universes and two different

Etc etc, so I liked that I thought that was cool,

but it just I I honestly don't think you would

have gotten just injustice volume two if the

first one wasn't so successful. I mean, I think

their intention all along was just to do one

volume and then lead into the game and then that

was it. But it actually lit a spark with fans.

Like people actually really liked it because

it had this old DCU feel to it as far as how

the characters looked and how they acted and

stuff like that. But also you still had the element

of anything can happen and it just caught fire

and DC just like any other company would do DC

said let's do another one So I assume because

I I haven't been keeping up with injustice as

of As of this after dark, but I assume year two

takes place after the events of the game that

I'm not sure I I haven't looked into volume two

I went only so far into the first injustice and

then decided to get it in trade In charge, I

have the hardcover of the first volume And I'm

gonna do the same thing with With the rest of

it just I did like it enough. I was like, okay

I'll get I'll get the hardcover version. So Yeah,

I'm I'm like that as well I the old wall there's

two reasons why I got the hardcover for Christmas.

I get the hardcover for death of the family because

There's the accent jacket cover. I know that's

kind of lame, but it's kind of cool because it's

the Joker on the cover I did the same thing distorted

face under under the under the cover but i need

to reread through that and i and i i don't know

if it's i don't know if my animosity towards

death of the family is as a story arc was because

i had to wait a month to find out what the hell

was gonna happen next i think if i read it in

one sitting all those four five six whatever

issues however many issues it is uh... the better

I might feel a little bit different, I don't

know about better, but I might feel a little

bit different about it. I might, I don't know,

we'll have to wait and see. I will say that Death

of the Family gave me, for me personally, one

of the greatest moments to me of Joker and Batman,

which was when they were on that, I think it

was on a bridge. On the bridge, yeah. And it's

just them talking with each other. Yeah. And

it reminded me very much the Heath Ledger speech

in Dark Knight where it's like, you know, you

need me and I need you and I'm you know You can't

be this way and I'm gonna make you better and

also other type of stuff and it was just a great

moment because I think there's nothing better

in a Batman and Joker story that when those two

characters have Duel verbally with each other.

Oh, yeah Yeah, exactly What what are your opinions

on new 52 Ryan, um going as far as in reference

to the The comment that was made as far as like

not knowing, you know, how did they do this?

How do they do that? They came out and said everything

this was one of their biggest mistakes that they

came out and said everything happened But this

is also a jump, you know, this is but basically

nothing happened It was like you could start

fresh. We're starting fresh anew, but just remember

everything that you read before happened Well,

that didn't turn out to be true And I think one

of the biggest mistakes they made was in that

very first issue of Justice League saying that

that story took place five years ago I think

it was a mistake to put any number of years on

when things happen Not to go into Marvel talk,

but Marvel kind of smart they no matter What's

going on in Marvel? They always say, well, that

took place 10 years from current day or something

like that. In Marvel, there is no hard number

of 2013, 2012, stuff like that. It's just, oh,

that happened in the last, all of Marvel happened

in the last 10, 15 years, no matter what time

period you're in. Think that was a big mistake

because going to what Steve was saying, how do

you fit in all these Robbins? How do you fit

in all this stuff that happened? And then you

had stuff like Batgirl You know, she was in the

wheelchair, but they never elude that she was

Oracle Well, I thought everything happened. So

if everything happened then she was Oracle for

a while and it just didn't make sense The way

I explain it in my head the way it makes sense

in my head is that flashpoint happened and Barry

Was rewriting the DC universe from his head it

was and so not everything is It's coming from

his memory of what the world was like so Not

everything is exactly the way it was but not

everything's exactly brand -new either So that's

the only way I can explain it in my head to make

sense of some of this stuff Just an overall view.

I think some some families of books became really

strong in the DC universe. An example of that

I'll say is the Magic type titles as far as like

Justice League Dark, Constantine, I Vampire,

you know books like that that dealt with the

darker mystical side of the DC universe. We didn't

have a lot of that before and now we have a pretty

strong showing of that now and I think they're

really some of the best titles DC is putting

out. The weak side of it is the Superman titles.

I think Superman Wonder Woman is a fantastic

title. I think Superman Unchained is good. I

think Superman in Action Comics is horrible.

And I think Supergirl is a good title when she's

not having to deal with Superman. And Superboy

title is just horrendous. So I think the Superman

titles got a lot weaker in the new... 52. Green

Lantern and Batman titles pretty much have stayed

consistently good from the old DCU to the new

DCU. Although I will argue that I would say now

that Geoff Johns has left the main Green Lantern

title, the new writer Venditti does not know

how to write Hal Jordan. He writes them all over

the place. One moment he's the hero, another

moment he doesn't know what the hell to do. The

Justice League titles I think actually got stronger.

now that we're farther away from the launch.

So I actually think Justice League as a title

right now is actually amazing right now with

the whole forever evil thing that's going on.

I think Aquaman became an incredible book. I

don't think anyone thought that was ever going

to happen. was a really strong book, and I'm

curious to see what the new creative team does.

Green Arrow was horrible when the new 52 started,

and now that Jeff Lemire is taking over, it is

really good. I would say that if you watch the

show Arrow at all and you like what you're seeing

there, that you should pick up the Green Arrow

title. Yes, and Wonder Woman as a title is...

It's weird because Wonder Woman is a title is

an amazing title and you don't have to pick up

anything else but it's weird because It doesn't

necessarily tie into anything else and that's

almost part of its charm I'm surprised they haven't

forced that to tie in the Superman Wonder Woman

yet. Yeah, it's really weird Now one of the obscure

titles that I really like and I never thought

I would really like it was all -star Western

With Jonah Hacks that title I picked it up. I'm

not a big Western guy. I didn't think I was gonna

like it and It's one probably my top in my top

five titles of DC right now And it ties into

a lot of old Gotham. He's in present -day right

now, but I think they're gonna bring him back

into he he met up with booster gold not to Make

it too messy for he be ran into booster gold

who's a futuristic character who found himself

in the past and then they worked to the future

and Jonah Hex traveled with him to present -day

Gotham, and I think they're gonna eventually

get him back to the Old West, but it's been really

cool because when he's in the Old West, he's

in Old West Gotham, and you get to see the families,

like the Cobblepots and the Waynes and stuff

like that. That's one thing I will say about

just before and after the New 52 is... How they

tie in that's that's one thing I will give Snyder

in his court of owls storyline how they tie in

all these all these Gotham families and I think

the first part of that that I had read and it

wasn't court of well, I guess Kind of be court

of owls, but it's more so About the gates family

but gates of Gotham far that that to me is one

of the best stories that takes modern -day events

and also intertwines what happened in the past

with the families that, you know, Bruce and Oswald

and the Canes and all that stuff. And it's not

just because Dick Grayson was Batman. And you

might like All -Star Western because of that.

I would say if you get a chance to read like

the first couple issues of it, give it a try.

you could probably get them kind of cheap digitally

these days and everything. But it did do a lot,

not to the extent that Gates of Gotham did, but

it does touch on stuff and it shows a lot of

the origins of the Court of Owls and things like

that because they're around even back then. So

you have a lot of interesting things going on.

You have Amadeus Arkham, who Jonah Hex pairs

up with, and he's kind of a pansy kind of little

sidekick guy who Jonah hex scares the hell out

of all the time, but he takes him on these adventures

anyways. So basically what you're saying is this

is a western version of Batman and Robin. Yeah,

in a way. There were some people who complained

about how much it tied into Gotham's past because

it didn't before the new 52, but I actually really

like it because I'll read stuff that goes on

there and see. little hints of what I'm reading

in current -day Batman and stuff like that so

I really like that though I would say the one

title I've been the most disappointed with in

the new 52 just because I'm a I was a huge fan

of it is the Teen Titans I am a huge fan of Tim

Drake to me Tim Drake was the best Robin ever

not saying he's my favorite character of the

bat family Nightwing's my favorite character

of the Bat family, but I think Tim Drake was

the best Robin. And when he became Red Robin,

had his own title in the old DCU. I thought that

was a fantastic title. And then he became the

leader of the He was the leader of the Teen Titans

in the New 52. In the first few issues, I was

like, OK, this still feels like Tim Drake and

everything else. And I love the Teen Titans.

That was one of my favorite things in the old

52. And I stayed with it for about 20 issues,

and it was probably 15 issues too long. But again,

I grew up reading Marv Wolfman and George Perez

doing Teen Titans, and I read you know, Jeff

Johns doing Teen Titans, and it was like, okay,

I've been reading Teen Titans for almost 20 years

of my 20 years reading DC, and I'm like, I just

can't let go of this title. I have to hope it's

gonna get better. And it just, I finally just

had to cut ties. I was like, oh, it pains me

to do something. If he ever gets a solo book,

I will read it. I cannot and will never support

anything Teen Titans related. I don't care who

the Robin is. I just can't. get behind the other

characters now is that because of the cartoons

that are out there it's because of the original

cartoon and it's because of this new kitty crap

cartoon i will tell you the actual teen titans

is nowhere around that at all if you let me put

it this way did you like the young justice cartoon

yes okay teen titans of mark wolfman and george

perez and jeff johns is like the young justice

cartoon okay Well, let's talk about the giant

time elephant in the room zero year Yes, I will

say if you like Tim Drake and you like that character

Mm -hmm should pick up Teen Titans number zero

because it is actually I have it on I have it

on digital I flipped through it on digital, but

I haven't actually read read it, but yeah, that's

one thing that will happen sometime This this

new year in 2014 is that well? We'll be doing

an episode of the pull bag. That is the Probably

specifically since Steve and I are bat family

fans. It's going to be bat family zero issues,

okay? So we will have a zero episode. Um, but

yeah, that's all about Tim Drake. So it works

well. Very cool. Yeah. I, uh, zero year to meet,

like, I was perfectly fine with issue 19 and

20 with it. Oh my God. Bruce Wayne has shot commissioner

Gordon. Wait, that's not Bruce Wayne. There's

a piece of clay coming out of his nose. I was

perfectly fine with a clay face arc and Then

the announcement of zero year and it's going

to be Batman's origin since he really hasn't

had one in the new 52 yet What was the point

of the zero issue if he has no damn origin? You

know If they had made it to where it wasn't and

you're right Ryan and instead of saying hey,

it's it's this set of time Do what Bruce Tim

did? for Batman Beyond. Batman Beyond takes place

50 years in the future of whenever now is. Sure,

the Batman Beyond animated series has a strict,

I think it's like 2040, 2065, somewhere around

there, but he always said the future is 50 years

from whenever now is. This whole six -year thing

like what Steve said with you know, how did he

has he have all the Robbins? How does he have

you know background? How does all this stuff

fit it? I just think it's too long of and Steve

agrees with me and he'll still say this in a

second, but 12 issues 12 months is too long if

they did What they should have done with this

is kind of what? IDW is doing with more than

meets the eye and robots in disguise. They're

doing 12 issues But since the 12 issues span

there are two transformers ongoing. It's only

gonna take six months to get it done, right?

So Zero year is 12 months 12 issues It's taking

too damn long. You weren't hinted by the fact

that was called zero year I get it, but I'm just

well it's better than what he wanted to call

it you want to call it year zero in in a large

to the year one right god thank god greg capo

talked him out of that no but like i get it it's

supposed to be his origin of how he became batman

and whatever else in the new fifty two i just

The plot is just taking tool issue 21 was great.

It was the beginning It was fine issue 22 and

23 for me were slow as hell 24 picked it back

up. It was awesome I loved how he made the head

of the bat part of the Red Hood Gang I thought

that was great in issue 24 25 and 26 so far it

slowed down again See I just I literally right

before we started recording I literally just

finished reading 26 and I actually loved I mean

I've been loving it all along I I've been finding

it to be a pretty cool ride and I did read stuff

in advance knowing that he was gonna have three

arcs to make up this whole story I'm very curious

and I know knowing Snyder's writing and everything

else and I've read other things besides his Batman

knowing his type of writing the little snippets

we're getting of other things going on are all

going to come together near the end. And that's

the part I'm looking forward to the most. Steve,

do you want to do your zero year rage? Well,

it's not even that I have rage against it. I

don't hate it. My lot of what my pet peeve is

with it is the fact that the fact that they've

already set up this time later on that's already

convoluted. Mm -hmm, so to me it's already ruined

They've already they've already kind of damaged

the timeline because they've already set the

timeline Yeah, and that kind of goes back to

I was saying before they actually made the same

mistake in this in zero year I think they said

it takes place like seven years ago or something

like that and it's like okay, so now Now you

definitely know it takes place two years before

he meets up with the Justice League it so yeah

putting these hard numbers on it still it's just

trying to cram too much into a time period so

and the other problem I'm gonna have with it

is what happens they're they're extending it

it was gonna be issues 21 to 32 it's now gonna

be 21 to 27 and 29 to 33 I think or something

cuz issue 28 I don't know, I read an interview

somewhere, or Snyder said it on Twitter, he said

it somewhere, where issue 28, he felt like he

was cramming people together, he was cramming

too much in, so they're gonna do a whole different

issue, and then the third, or I forget, the third

part, or the third act of the current three arc,

or four arc story, it's so damn, it looks like

they're stopping the damn event to do something

else. that takes place in the future of Zero

Year. Like, why would you do that? And I can

be wrong. I did hear about that, but I didn't

look into it. But I would almost guess that that

one year or that one issue is going to be a different

artist on that. And I can almost guarantee you

that they're doing it to give Capullo time to

finish drawing the rest of Zero Year. I would

be really surprised if I see Capullo on that

one issue. I think it's to give him some time

to get caught up. And that's fine, but why? Okay,

they pretty much stopped all when Villains Month

was going on. He didn't have a He -Man title

that month because of Villains Month. He didn't

have all this and all that. I don't think we

had a DCU versus MOTU issue that month. So why

wouldn't you just put Batman on break for the

month that issue 28 is going to come out to give

Capolo time instead of having a story that takes

place in the future from where you're trying

to tell stories in the past? It's possible they

didn't know at that particular time that he was

that far behind. I don't know. Who knows what

goes on in the back office? I know one thing

for sure. It's going to happen. I can almost

guarantee you this. You're going to see, when

this is all said and done, you're going to see

an absolute edition come out of Batman Court

of Owls. And that's probably going to have the

Court of Owls and the Knight of Owls all in one

big absolute edition. And then you're going to

see Zero Year come out as an absolute edition

because DC knows that they can make money off

of it by selling a $100 book. With the whole

story there and people will eat it up. I probably

will And I can tell you going back to what you're

saying like it taking too long I can almost guarantee

you that it Zero year, especially maybe not as

much with death of the family but zero year,

especially I think once it's all said and done

if you did go back and read it all It will probably

flow so smoothly Because I know because I had

purposely left like two three issues to backlog

and I read those two three issues together and

it might be why I don't feel like it slowed up

as much as you have is because I kind of read

them all back -to -back like that so yeah DC's

still I guess they're too focused on issue 27

coming out in January because they still haven't

updated their website with the fact that 28 is

not gonna be that final arc or the final arc

for Dark City, so I don't know. I'm just, by

issue 26, I've, for Batman, I'm still gonna get

it, but I've kind of really lost interest at

this point, and it's kind of sad. I think that's

happened. I'll pick up two issues, then. No,

they say I'm really enjoying it, but But I know

people on both sides. I've known people on not

just you guys I've known other people that I'm

friends with that kind of feel the same way or

kind of feel like why did the story have to be

told I know someone that isn't reading at all.

He completely dropped Batman as a title because

he says I don't need this story I already had

year one as the defendant to him. It was the

definitive you know, Batman origin story, which

I agree with him on that. But that doesn't and

he's like, well, I don't need to read another

origin story. And I'm like, he's like, how many

times do we have to do it? I'm like, I don't

know. How many times have we heard Superman's

origin story or Spider -Man's origin story? It's

like somebody is always going to come around

and tell it again a different way. So, yeah.

It's just crazy. And what I find really funny

is how I can. Find stuff in other media that

relates to stuff in comics because Before we

recorded I I went and sought out once in future

thing The timeline is restored to equilibrium,

so we're the only two that remember anything

of that happen. Yeah pretty much that complicates

things And it's of course Batman and Green Lantern

yeah, yeah Any other thoughts on new 52 Steve

No, anyway, where do you want to see it go in

the third year that it's The current universe

well for one I want to see it stop being so damn

convoluted like I know that's a lot asking of

comics considering everything with comics is

pretty much that way But I think more so what

my pet peeve is about it is the fact that they

keep setting these stupid timelines and It's

like they're pigeonholing themselves into these

these placements they have to hit And I don't

know I just so many things just from the get

-go right out the gate Things were brought over

from the old, you know pre -new 52 and then things

were Screwed up and then and then you have all

these different story arcs that you know You

have the forever evil you have the archimore

which is essentially along the same lines you

have Zero year you have all these different things

going on Between them, but I understand the the

need to have things connect But I don't want

to collect an issue of this and an issue of that

to put together a story of something And when

I say that I don't mean like, you know, getting

the Batgirl part of the story or the Nightwing

part of the story and the the Batman I mean having

five Batman comics and they're all Jumping back

and forth between each other Yeah, I think they

need to stop doing four five six issue or series

of Specific characters like Superman Batman It's

just it gets to be a bit much and I'm a huge

fan of Batman, but to me a lot of what's been

going on I just I don't give a crap about I'm

Not entirely pleased with a lot of the stuff

going on in new 52 at this point since after

death of the family, but I'm not entirely like

hating it either. I just I wish that they would

just kind of figure out kind of a happy medium

and stop jumping to the past and then going to

the current and then going back to the past and

then going to the future and then going back

to the past and going to the current you know

I mean it's it's mind -boggling bouncing back

and forth it's a vicious cycle is what it is

you know I there are and I've said this you guys

know this or you know Steve should know this

by now but For me, Batgirl and Nightwing are

my two favorites. Consistently very well written.

The art can fluctuate, but consistently the stories

have been really well done. Nightwing hasn't

had the latest story where he's in Chicago. That

was a six issue story, but they didn't have to

tout it as... Some sort of event or whatever

else Batgirl she had a three -issue arc I didn't

like how it played out as far as release because

I think and again, this is just me and my Asinine

numbering scheme you would think if they're going

to do a zero -year tie -in Because it is the

new 52 you would think they would make all those

the 26 issues not 25 because to me 23 24 where

Batgirl wanted parts one and part two But 25

hey, no, we're not gonna give you part three

We're gonna give you a zero year and Batgirl

what she's doing during the time of the zero

year and then in 26 Hey, here's the Batgirl wanted

conclusion. Don't get me wrong. I love the stories.

I just think that they were As far as where they

fell a little mishandled on the on the on the

DC big wig staff Totem pole I Don't know I I'm

really skeptical about what they're gonna do

with this five -year jump and how they're gonna

bring Batman Beyond into it because I don't want

it to take away from what Kyle and Tony Kyle

Higgins and Tony Silas are doing on the universe

comic So there's two things please do not tell

me by bringing in batman beyond into the new

52 that you're going to then can the universe

stuff and secondly if you kill nightwing i'm

pretty much gonna drop d .c. pretty much there

might be only if batman beyond universe is still

going i'll grab that i'll grab batgirl and the

he -man and the motu that's it the rest of it

I don't give a shit if you kill my favorite character,

screw you. Now what if they bring him back, will

you come back? If he comes back as Dick Grayson,

yes. If they put some Scott Snyder... Character

steampunk looking mohawk having female in the

nightwing suit. No, thank you No, I meant as

Dick Grayson and I can speak to that as I mean

I didn't go away from comics but because of it

But I can speak to that as being a Hal Jordan

fan. Obviously they killed him. He was gone for

a while And then they brought him back in rebirth

and and I could not have been jumping higher

in the air in celebration about that Because

they were bringing my green lantern back. So

See, it would be different for me if I had already

been reading the old universe Nightwing, and

then they made him Batman, then they took him

into Nightwing. See, I started with Gates of

Gotham, so I started, even though I know Dick

was Robin and Nightwing and all that stuff, I

started with him being Batman, and then he went

back to being Nightwing from issue zero, or well,

issue one to now issue 25, 26. So it's like...

Personally, I've always liked him better as Nightwing

than as Batman. I understood the progression,

but I liked him as Nightwing because I felt like

he became his own hero. He was his own entity.

See, that's what Kyle is doing. He took him out

of Gotham. Sure, he might have gone back a couple

of times. You know, the annual number one that

was just released, he went back and helped Barbara

take care of some stuff. wasn't in that bad girl

one time but like Kyle took him out of Gotham

put him in Chicago gave him his own kind of cast

of characters and I don't understand why Dan

what's his nuts once uh always wants to kill

that character. He's never liked the character.

I don't know why he's never liked the character,

but he never has. And I'm hoping that he and

the whole thing that's kept him from killing

the character is fan reaction. Fans don't want

Dick Grayson to die. And I don't blame him because

I don't want him to die either. And I, to your

point, like. Yeah, I like that he's in Chicago.

I want him to stay in Chicago. In the old DCU

they had him go to Bloodhaven before it was destroyed.

But they had him go to Bloodhaven and I like

that he became a cop in Bloodhaven and he had

his own identity there. I and I'm perfectly fine

in fact that you I would expect that he's gonna

go back to Gotham Occasionally and and interact

with the other bat family occasionally because

that's his roots That's where he came from so

I don't mind when it happens here and there I

just don't think he needs to be living and breathing

in Gotham all the time because Gotham already

has enough heroes Yeah, yeah, no exactly and

I agree and see the other thing about Kyle taking

him to Chicago was At least to me, and maybe

this is me reading into what Kyle did with his

short film, The League. But the whole thing with

Kyle and taking him to Chicago was to explore

Chicago's history with costumed heroes. And sure,

we've gotten a little bit of that. in like a

really small flashback in one of the Zuko issues.

I forget which one it is. I think it might be

issue 19, but I don't remember. It might be that

first or second issue. So I like that. I think

that's great. I think that's, you know, he's

still being the Bat family member without having

to be tethered to the damn Batcave. My only complaint

with Nightwing, it was just a personal preference

for me, is I wish And I don't know if you've

read these stories or if you've read it since

the beginning but I wish they would have allowed

him to build that amusement park and I think

that could have been a really fun world to play

in for a little while Yeah amusement mile that

would have been awesome. Yeah Uh, for a second

there, I thought you were gonna say, I wish they'd

go back to blue. No. Well, I don't mind the red,

so... I love the red. I will defend the red till

my dying breath, but honestly, seriously, I don't

think this will happen. This is wishful thinking

on my part. I don't care if he comes back, but

if the D .O. gets his way and kills him, he needs

to be fired. Well, and you put a gun to my head,

I'm probably gonna pick blue for Nightwing, but...

I don't mind but I grew up with the blue too

so that's partially why but the red I certainly

was not up in arms when I saw the red I was like

well that looks cool too so yeah I think I think

for me kind of piggybacking off of what Steve

was mentioning earlier things I would like to

see happen is I would like to see a little bit

less convoluted things that happening I I I'm

starting to see signs of it and elements of them

working a little bit more together with each

other, the creators and everything else. I'll

see certain titles that are not just like the

Green Lantern titles working with each other,

but they also work with some other titles are

out there if they know they're going to be infringing

on that. I would love it if the Superman titles

could get a little bit more cohesive and stronger.

And to your point, Mike, I definitely think that

they need to work better on their timing of issues

because they did it with zero year also with

all the titles being number zero, where they

chopped stories right in the middle to do the

zero issue. And then they went back to it. And

I think they need to get way better at that.

They need to communicate with their creators,

their writers and say, hey, at issue number 25,

we're going to be doing Zero year issues if you

want to be part of that make sure your story

is wrapped up before issue 25 If you don't want

to be part of it, it's fine because not all the

titles were part of that so And I think they

need to allow the creators to have that type

of leeway and everything else But yeah, they

need to kind of work on that to make it a little

more cohesive my big thing uh that's unique from

from you guys that i would like to see happen

going forward is i would like to see them continue

to be a little bit more experimental with some

of their titles uh and i what i mean by is by

that is when they first came out they came out

with titles like uh all -star western and storm

watch and black hawks and suicide squad and and

even in the bat family doing batwing i know Mike,

you're like, what the hell? But Batwing was actually

a very good title, and it still is. I actually

like what they're doing more with it now, with

it being Lucius Fox's son being the Batwing character.

Wait, wait, wait. OK, well, hold on. Stop the

presses here. Wait a second here. Hold on. Did

Batwing start out as Lucius's son? No, he started

out as another guy, but he died. Yeah. Okay,

that was the 19th if it's so okay dies this other

guy have anything to do with Bruce Wayne Oh,

is it just some random guy that just said it?

Did they pull a mystery of the Batwoman? No,

they really he had something to do with Batman

incorporated because okay because Batman was

Sometimes yes, like as long as it isn't you know,

Joe chill jump No, this was a character that

appeared first in Batman incorporated Okay, and

they decided to it was a weird choice but they

decided to go ahead and give him his own title

with the new 52 and he basically he operated

in Africa and he was a cop in Africa and as you

can imagine there's a lot of tribal things going

on like heroin and drug and kids being used as

you know warring factions and things like that

and he and the cops were pretty much helpless

to stop any of this and a lot more corrupt much

like a Gotham situation but you got to see more

of like real I mean it was it was gritty It was

really brutal and as it is over there and it

was kind of neat to see that side of the world

and how this guy deals with it because he had

to deal with it way different than Bruce has

to deal with. with Gotham. And he had connections

with his brother. There's a whole story with

his brother and everything else too that went

on. And like I said, to me the story was really

well done. I did drop the title, but I dropped

the title so I could pick it up and trade. It

wasn't that I was dropping the title entirely.

It was just a title I felt like I would be better

served reading this in like five, six issue chunks.

So what issue does Lucius' son come in as the

character? I believe issue 20. Cuz I think issue

I think issue 19 which was the the big event

of the what the F month where Where there was

gonna be some surprise in every single issue?

The big surprise in batwing was that the batwing

died Well, if it's Lucius's son now I might actually

pick it up Yeah, his name is Luke, which I'm

sure is short for Lucius. So I'm sure he's Lucius

jr. But yeah It would have been more interesting

if they went the other way and they went with

the old wounds reference of Sharon Fox But but

no I hope that I hope that DC still experiments

because I really liked the titles like vibe Even

though it's getting cancelled. It was actually

a really good title and actually a really good

all ages title I felt like anyone of any age

could read it and enjoy it You know, I hope they'll

still experiment and not feel like they need

to do all Batman titles and all Superman titles.

And the reason why they do seven, eight Batman

titles and five or six Superman titles because

there's popularity. And I don't mean to come

down on you guys, but you guys are part of that

problem. You're buying the Batman title. Although

slowly I'm becoming a fan of not buying it. There

you go. And I would hide and I can honestly I

could recommend titles to you guys that you don't

have to be reading Anything else other than that

one title earth 2 is a great example of that

you read earth 2 It's amazing title And you don't

need to be reading anything else all -star westerns

the same way. I think it's an amazing title You

don't need to be reading anything else So I want

to see them experiment with things like that

It's fine to keep your core of your Batman's

and your Superman's and your Wonder Woman's and

things like that But let's let's try to spotlight

some of these characters and just see what happens

even if it only lasts eight issues I mean Oh

Mac was a great example of that Oh Mac was a

title that Only lasted eight issues, but man.

It's got like kind of a cult following now people

like really like that character. I don't know

why but because I didn't really care for it,

but Speaking of cult followings do we really

need? Stephanie back really now Now don't get

me wrong. I have not yet read the Stephanie Brown

batgirl stuff. I've heard nothing about positive

things about it I do want to get them eventually

If she comes back as some other character fine,

but if she's gonna replace Barbara again new

no I think she's gonna come back a spoiler which

is the character she was Originally in the robin

story is she was this character called spoiler

and um And I did did love stephanie brown as

bat girl But yeah now that barbara's back and

it's a really well written title. I don't need

her to be bat girl Um, but if they're gonna bring

her back a spoiler Which I think they are because

they that one picture that they showed of all

the bat family having thanksgiving together Yeah,

there's the girl in the purple hood sitting there.

That's stephanie brown because spoiler had a

purple hood Everything so I That kind of goes

into my other thing that would I'm hoping that

they'll do which is I'm hoping that they will

bring back Smartly, but I'm hoping that they'll

bring back some of these characters that I've

been missing from the old DCU I want to see Stephanie

Brown back, but you're right. I don't need her

as back girl I just I want to see her back though.

I want to see Ted Kord I mean we he got shot

in the head before infinite crisis I want to

see Ted Kord come back as Blue Beetle and I want

to and do it right. Now that it's a new universe

and he doesn't have to be dead anymore, bring

him back. Bring Wally West back. Bring some of

these characters that fans are saying that they

want back, but make sure you're doing it smartly.

Make sure you're doing it right. You don't need

to have a big number one issue of Blue Beetle

with Ted Kord. You can just ease him back into

it, which they kind of did because in Forever

Evil number one... uh... lex luther's talking

to ted court's father and actually mentions he's

like you have a son don't you and things like

that so it's been kind of interesting alright

well i think that's going to do it for this episode

of after dark here inside the pull bag ryan where

can the people interact with you online? uh...

they can find us at starjoes dot com And that's

where you can find the star Joe's podcast which

is all about Star Wars and it pretty much every

80s property We do focus mostly on the comic

books that are currently out there these days

on those properties But you can also find us

on Facebook. And the reason I mentioned the Facebook

Fan site is because that's where I do a lot of

my comic reviews and I review everything outside

of the star Joe's universe I guess so DC like

we've been talking about Marvel, Independence,

and stuff like that. Anything that's not, you

know, those 80s properties that we're going to

cover on the show, I do comic reviews on the

fan site on Facebook, so. Very awesome, very

awesome. Steve, what about you? Well, of course,

you can get me on Geekcast Radio or on the Twitters

at SCP21. You can also find me at Geekcast Radio

and at TFJoneMic on Twitter. And yeah, coming

up next, we will have the first four issues review

of Transformers Prime Beast Hunters with Lady

Rek and I. After that, Steve and I are going

to jump in the mystery machine and go hunt down

some man bats in episode 54 of the show. Of course,

we'll have our January review of the bat books.

Even though I'm not doing written reviews on

the Batman title anymore. We are still going

to cover them at least in the show for now Let's

see what else is coming up. We'll have more origins

in the new year. We will also have more after

darks got a ton of of Topic ideas and stuff that

we can cover at a later date So make your great

escape into comics, and we will catch you next

time. What about you Batman? I'm not really a

people person But when you need help, and you

will, call me. Understood. Hey Geekcast listeners!

Do you ever listen to Punisher Body Count and

think to yourself, this show would be awesome

if it had less toilet humor and was not about

the Punisher? If so, join me, Emily Williams,

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at Classy, or like the Oprah Book Club of comics.

You'll hear us discuss famous works like The

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I'm your host Ryan and I'm Chuck. That's right.

Everybody. We're the star Joe's We host a podcast

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