Marvel 1602

This is Phil Lamar and you are listening to the

GeekCast Radio Network. Welcome to the Comic

Concierge, Batywethek. Geekcast radio network,

the podcast where we say comics are for everyone.

The key is finding the right one. This is one

of our cost of your episodes where I bring someone

on that's not necessarily a fan of comics or

have a huge experience with comics. And we talk

about, you know, what apprehension and what what

what history they have before to this. And I

recommend a title to them based upon their interest

in other mediums like movies, TV, what have you.

We kind of go over that title. Today, we will

be talking with a fellow cinema geek host. Kevin,

Optimus Solo. How's it going, man? Not too bad.

Happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

So what we're going to be doing is we're going

to be talking to Kevin, getting into his interest

or what experience he has with comics, talking

about the title that I recommend to him and why,

and then discussing that title in detail. But

hopefully it's mostly spoiler free. So, but Kevin,

let's start there. As indicated, anyone listening

to Cinemaggiecast knows you're a big fan of that.

Movies obviously transformers fan fan of Star

Wars. What has your history been with comics

up to this point? Have you read any error? Have

you as a kid as an adult? My history with comics

is very limited. I would say that there was comics

that were put out originally with the Transformers

toys like way back when I don't know if it was

with the toys or if it was along I don't know

somehow I Had like four Transformers comics as

a child. I don't know where they came from or

how I got them It must have been part of some

type of gift of some sorts But so I remember

seeing those and reading those and I remember

More recently here in the 2000 somewhere. I read

a handful of He -Man comics for another record

another podcast. So Just because we were doing

He -Man content, so I read a couple of those

for that Other than that, I don't think I've

ever really read too many comics. And it's not

because I necessarily dislike comics in any way,

shape, or form. You could ask me the same question

on novels and books lately, and I haven't read

hardly anything there either. I just find so

much of my time is being used watching movies

and TV shows, et cetera, that I just literally

don't spend a lot. The time I would spend reading

comics probably would be towards the end of the

night. When Amanda's sleeping or falling asleep

and I'm not ready to do that yet, but I've done

so much online work, whether it be through Geekcast

Radio or behindthevoiceactors .com, that that

probably takes up the chunk of time that I would

be reading these things, so I'm not opposed to

comics. However, for some reason or another,

as a child I never... got into them. I don't

know if that was just because my friends didn't

read them or I wasn't exposed to them through

my brother or my sister, stuff like that, but

it just never became a habit that I started.

Out of the few that I've read, which is probably

less than 10, I've never had a bad experience,

so I don't know what my excuse is. So the comics

that you did read when you first, you said you

overall, you did enjoy them for the most part,

just because of your fandom, or did you actually

find the stories engaging outside of the fact

that it was based upon Transformers or He -Man?

I think with the Transformers ones, that was

strictly because I was a fan of it as a child

and being able to see, you know, when you're

a kid, especially when we were kids, you didn't

have internet, you didn't have Netflix, you didn't

have streaming things. So with me, I was a big

fan of certain things, Transformers being one

of them. So I had the toys so I could play with

the toys. And when the TV show aired, I could

watch it, but... if it wasn't airing at that

exact time I couldn't watch it. I know that's

that's probably so weird to some people like

wait you couldn't watch whatever you wanted to

watch at that moment in time yeah right you know

and then you you know you most people you know

growing up they clung to their VHS tapes you

know they had a few of those and and I did have

like I don't know like four or five episodes

of Transformers that was on like a compilation

VHS tape that I must have gotten as a gift at

some point so I could watch those episodes but

I was always looking for like what else is there

like is there something else out there I would

search like the TV guides like trying to find

like other broadcasts of Transformers which I

never found so those comics were just another

thing to like kind of entice my fandom some of

them paralleled the the TV series a little bit

some of it was a little bit of new content so

I don't know if it was the story so much as it

was just the property with the He -Man the few

comics that I read for I will say that it was

a combination of both I was intrigued because

I knew the characters and I liked the property

But the stories were also pretty good in the

ones that I read I wouldn't be able to tell you

which ones I read or the names of the issues

or whatever because I'm bad like that But I do

remember enjoying the actual stories and kind

of the character development that went in to

the the reading So I'm curious like as you know

someone who doesn't read a lot of comics your

app you're kind of understanding of the medium

from afar like Do you, when people say comics,

are you under the impression that majority of

them are superhero based or kind of based upon

similar properties or? If you had asked me as

a child or as a teenager, I would have thought

that all comic books were basically Marvel DC.

I was aware that there was Turtles comics, even

though I had never read them. But that would

be where my mind went was Marvel DC. Like as

an adult, though, and just with my connections

to different people in the kind of the geek community.

I'm very aware that there's comics on literally

everything now like you know, there's Archie's

there's transformers. There's he man. There's

Jim. There's I mean, and that's just 80s properties

I'm talking about over. Yeah cheese before that,

but I mean it seems like everything has a comic

now Yeah, we do see my geeks together and I know

your feelings on most of the Marvel films or

the comic book films in general has that ever

like got you interested or kind of scratched

an itch or cause an edge of like maybe I need

to get into these comics or is it in a way done

the opposite where it's like well I have these

movies so why do I need to watch the comic or

read the comics because I can just get the same

thing out of a two -hour movie I think it's done

two things because I have generally been very

much in favor of all the Marvel films I don't

know if there's been a single one that I really

disliked DC a little bit less lucky I guess but

there's been a few that I've liked but uh But

I've liked all them films and so it brings to

attention two different things that I have blind

spots for number one I never watched any of the

comic book Marvel DC animated series. I never

I never was exposed to them I never got into

them, you know in the 80s 90s, etc So there's

a big hole there as you know And I know the Batman

the animated series has held up as one of the

best series of all time I know there's some good

series, you know within the X -Men, you know

as Superman Etc. So I have a big blind spot for

those and it does make me curious to go back

and maybe try to get into some of those because

I have maybe within the last year or two seen

my first like two or three of the the DC Direct

-to -video type movies, you know And I know they've

been doing those for a lot and I've just started

watching those so that I'm kind of like itching

to get a little bit more into those and then

maybe into the TV series I think what's kept

me away from the comics is I'd be interested

in them, but I would have it's intimidating because

there's so Many issues and so many years that

I do not know where I would start and I don't

know What I would be getting myself into I guess

that's you know That's a very good point because

it's tough because there is such a huge amount

of content out there there's like ongoing titles

like you can watch walk into a comic book shop

right now and It's you know, but I want to read

I just saw Thor i want to read the thor comic

but it's not necessarily super easy just to read

the most recent issue of thor or like just a

thor comic because it's it's really tough which

kind of gets into the comic book that we're talking

to today are the ones i recommended to you and

that was kind of the purpose of this podcast

was like okay trying to find people a starting

point and how exactly to do that so i know I've

been doing podcasting with you for years now.

I know you have a love of history, for sure,

going back before podcasting, and I know some

of your favorite things when it comes to movies.

I know you're a huge fan of Monte Cristo, historical

fiction, so I recommended some things regarding

those, in those veins, as well as other comics

that are self -contained, so you don't necessarily

need. any type of background knowledge going

into it. So that's why actually 1602 was one

of the books I recommended. For one, it does

to me feel similar to that of a kind of Monte

Cristo, not exactly, but it has, I think there

are some parallels with this tone and type of

story. Also, it's steeped in history taking place

during the 17th century and having some real

life history inside of it, obviously, very much

altered to the Malphur universe. But in addition

to that, there is no need to be super aware of

any other story. It's its own self -contained

story. There's no continuity of 50 years you

really didn't want to know about. No, I do think,

and we can get into this, it is taking a lot

of Marvel characters and putting them in this

world. And I was, and we can talk about a little

concerned because it may be somewhat confusing

regarding everything that's going on, because

it may be easier to understand if you have more

of a background knowledge, but hopefully some

of the movies may be helped in that. But it's

a long way of saying basically, overall, you

know, what was your experience and enjoyment

of reading 1602? I think you did a couple things

right as far as the selection of that. I think

you did very much get something that was kind

of in the same vein of storytelling that I kind

of gravitate towards with these kind of almost

historical fiction epic type tales where there's

a lot of different things going on and there's

a lot of character development and different

motivations for different decisions etc. So I

think you definitely nailed the type of story

that would probably attract me most. And I do

like the kind of thing you're set up with there

as far as combining superheroes into somewhat

historic events and things and kind of how it

how it works how it doesn't work I find that

intriguing too when it comes to different things

that we've seen in the past like outside of comic

books you know like with time travel and stuff

like that as far as when you get to go back and

view events that you already know about, but

then view them in a different way, I guess, or

view them in, even if it's fantasy, even if it's

make believe or something like that, but these

are, this is the real thing as far as what happened

behind the events of these things. You know what

I mean? I'm trying to be as vague as I can, but

those types of things where it's like, oh, you

think you know the story, but do you really know

this take of it? Where this is really the real

reason why this person dies or why this event

happened or why this war happened or different

things like that. So I think that's intriguing

in and of itself. I was maybe not prepared for

the number of characters that would be involved

in this. And so that was something that kind

of as I was going through, because I kind of

went through and made notes, you know, issue

by issue. And that was something that I was trying

to figure out as I was going through this was

like. who's all going to be involved, who's not

going to be involved, whose story is this type

of thing. And I think generally I enjoyed this

very much. I think the hardest thing for me in

this was I know most of the characters. Like

I have a knowledge of most of the characters

through pop culture, movies, et cetera. But in

the vein of this story, most of them are not

This isn't like they're incognito, I guess is

the best way to say it. They're not wearing their

prototypical uniform. They're not being called.

The names that we're used to, some of them are

much more obvious than others. So there was a

little bit of work having been done in my head

as far as who is a comic book character that

I should know, who is just a historic figure

that they're inserting in this, or who is neither,

who is just a general character that we... don't

know more about. So I think that was the only

kind of thing that I felt like maybe somebody

that knows comics more would have been able to

more quickly identify certain characters and

who they were. then connect what they know about

you know what they know from history on that

character and bring that into it so I think that

was maybe the only struggle but it wasn't necessarily

a detractor as far as my enjoyment it was it

actually may be added to it because there was

more mystery for me and it was probably took

me a lot longer throughout the different issues

to figure out who some of these characters even

were where some people probably would know that

from the first you know cell that they showed

up on But yeah, that's a really good point. I

didn't even think about that how sometimes having

a lack of awareness could make it Better because

some of the obvious mystery or some of the things

that connecting the dots that people may already

do Is not there for you Like one that happened

to me with was like cool Magneto ends up being

and I should have realized it sooner and I kind

of thought about it But that was one of the more

surprising things. And honestly, I read this.

I realize I haven't read this story in a decade

or so. And after recommending it to you, I'm

like, oh, man, this is it's I will say this about

it. I know you've read some of the comics recently,

but this is rather verbose when it comes to comic

reading. Neil Gaiman, who done a lot of comics,

probably Sandman is probably what he's most.

notorious for but he's also obviously a novel

writer and you see that in something like this

where it is written like a novel and how he likes

to you know certainly write a lot of dialogue

like a lot of narrative overall and was that

at all daunting because there's you know there's

certainly pages that you open up and there is

a lot of words on the page which sounds kind

of reductive but I know for a lot of comic group

readers like that it's often a takeaway when

it when there is kind of where that the words

can over overtake the art. Was that at all a

problem for you when it came to this book? I

don't think I would call it a problem. I will

say that might have had two different things

that it brought to light. Well, one is more of

what that caused. I think it caused me to focus

too much on the writing and I didn't get enough

of a chance to really delve into the artwork

and kind of appreciate that as much as I could

have. If I was to like read it again, I might

be able to look at it more because I was so concerned

with. Trying to get all of the reading in and

and figure out what was going on and stuff like

that But then I'd almost have to get done and

then take a step back and be like, okay now I

can actually look at the images and things like

that because like you said you open some pages

and there's like a Lot of text which I'm not

a that that is not a problem for me. I don't

mind reading a lot of text I just wasn't sure

if I was Missing something by not forcing myself

to view more of the images and look more closely

at them Not that I skipped over any of them or

anything like that. But and then the other thing

I think it brought to light for me is my lack

of comic experience might have blocked me from

knowing what the rules are when you are reading

a cell and what order you're supposed to read

each of the, you know, the word bubbles, I guess

you can call them. You know what I mean? Cause

I, I felt like I'm stupid. I'd read that in the

wrong order and I should know that it's supposed

to go from here to here and then from here to

here, you know, that type of thing. Like I'm

like, there had to be a couple of cells that

I read like three times until I got it the right

order. Yeah. Yeah, the goal is usually left to

right, but that's also part of lettering and

properly editing pages and setting up. Format

some do it really well and and where it's easy

to follow, but if you're having trouble following

the layout of a page It could be because it wasn't

laid out really well And that's often like where

you see a lot of comic book artists have have

trouble and struggle where things look great

But it's hard to kind of imagine where things

go. It is it is a skill I think or it's something

you certainly learn where things go and how you

may read a bubble above and I think a lot of

comic book readers they wouldn't want to admit

it but Happens ever occasion where you like,

oh wait, I read the wrong thing first and I'll

have to go back but and I think that's probably

even more Evident in a book like this. No, obviously

I don't have a lot to compare it to but like

what you're saying There's some pages where I

think that just is more problematic because of

how much is being said like, you know certain

times It's very easy if each character is only

saying like one thing during a cell That's pretty

easy to keep up with but there's a couple where

like one person saying has like three or four

different Bubbles with them and then another

character has two and then another character

has three and like that's a lot within one cell

And so I was like trying to follow the order,

but I felt like maybe this one Part of the layout

problems was because they were trying to squeeze

so much into certain pages or certain cells Yeah,

I think certainly it's because I recently like

read some manga titles for the first time And

it's like the opposite and not just like you

you read it. It's actually the book is set up

So you read it where we would consider it like

the last page is the first page But it even goes

that with the way you read the comic and the

first one I read I read it backwards and I didn't

really realize it at times and I was catching

myself I definitely understand that because you

get You kind of get formatted to reading things

a certain way and if it's not exactly there,

it's certainly problematic. The story itself.

So like I mentioned, I related this to County

Monte Cristo or other kind of stories of that

ilk. How did that work for you? Like did you,

Neil Gaiman, so his plots are rather dense and

there is, like you mentioned, a lot of characters

moving on, but overall were you kind of stuck

in just the... trying to understand who each

other, who everyone is and their place. Were

you actually able to enjoy the narrative that

was actually being told within all that? I think

I enjoy the narrative overall mainly because

of the connections to the time period that it's

talking about with the early era of colonization

etc with the Roanoke and settlement and you know

some of the the people involved so like I was

able to enjoy it from that standpoint because

I kind of already had some knowledge of that

time period and how things actually went according

to the history books at least and so I mean that

part worked for me I think the only Think knowing

that I was going through eight issues. I was

a little more Understanding that I wasn't gonna

know Everything was didn't need to make sense

to me at the beginning Like I I was under the

impression that things would be answered or you

know revealed as time went on So that wasn't

the biggest problem for me. I think the only

thing that I kind of wrote in my notes in a negative

standpoint was that there was a lot of different

locations that were bouncing around at first

and it took maybe three issues in before I was

starting to actually be able to follow all the

story, all the different lines correctly. Like

I at first, you know, because you're just being

introduced to, hey, here's this location. Here's

the characters at this location. Here's what

they're doing. And then, boom, you know, you're

somewhere else. I get all that. That's kind of

how most stories set up. But it seemed like all

of a sudden I'm like, wait a second, I got to

stop and think here. Like it was almost like

when you're watching Game of Thrones or something,

you're like, OK, there's like. Where is that

place in location to you know in respects to

this place and stuff like that? So, I mean I

think the number of locations was a little confusing

at first But I was and it all kind of came together

I think in episode in the fourth issue Maybe

it was a third of the fourth issue where all

of a sudden I was locked in Okay, and now I understand

what's going on and I can follow from here on

out So that was kind of the only hiccup at the

beginning. Yeah, I could see that because there

are you know a lot of different characters, different

locations, different spaces that you're going

to and you'll get like a big tidbit here and

how they connect and how the like underworkings

work and who's like betraying who who's working

with who you know you have you know Matt Murdock

who's not Murdock but uh who was basically Matt

Murdock working with Nick Fury and Natasha Black

Widow and like that that's starting on going

on and it there is a lot to fall in Game of Thrones

was one thing that came to mind too I I know

I read this before the show came out and now

after and I did think of that as well like how

You have a lot of you know a lot of these stories

that are taking place all at once and their relation

to one another and a lot of Same similar themes

to obviously people kind of searching for this

power with this ever Persistent doom that's looming

in the background where the world's gonna end

and people are still trying to fight over with

more of the More more petty aspects of kingdoms

and things of that nature So there's there is

a lot of parallels there when I didn't think

of that recommending it but now looking back

at it I'm like, how did I not because it's right

there Yeah, I think episode 3 though does a good

job when they introduce, I don't know if this

is spoilers or not, but they introduce a character,

also I'll say it vaguely, they introduce a character

who has been observing, who kind of... Is almost

in essence us in a way, you know, like they've

been seen everything that we've been seen and

they kind of put it together I think in and you

know right at the beginning of episode I keep

saying episode issue 3k where there's a there's

a first page that's kind of very helpful in putting

the strength of all the different strings that

are going on and then seen that character who

is basically Seeing everything that we're seeing

really helped me bring it together So I think

that was a helpful thing and then I think you

get a little of that also through The doctor

strange character because he's in a way somewhat

knowledgeable of what's going on in all the different

areas. So I think they use those two characters

very well and Being not necessarily expositional

but being Almost in like in review or in summary.

This is everything that's going on type thing

That that I thought was helpful from those two

individual characters Yeah, I think one of my

favorite parts of this entire story looking at

it is the kind of relationship between Stephen

Strange and Nicholas Fury. You have Strange obviously

who comes from the more mystic world and Fury

who's more the reality based, obviously like

the old guard in a way. And there's almost some

sense of a feud there, but their loyalty, how

it lies, how that plays into it and just like

their back and forth between like how they ultimately

have the same goal, but their methodology behind

it is very different and the drama or the tension

that occurs before them but then they end up

coming together and this strange character in

general is probably a rather tragic figure in

this and You mentioned we can I think we could

spoil this aspect because it's not a huge spoiler

I don't think but you the watcher who is a major

character in The the Marvel Universe he was somewhat

in the movies He was looking they they showed

the Watchers at the end of of Guardians and I

was like when we got to that point I was reading

and I'm like, I wonder if this is gonna be weird

for Kevin I was it like this weird dude is bald

sitting at the moon I don't know if that like

that how that sequence worked for you because

it was it was that was probably the most dense

of all the dialogue sequences, but I think it

Maybe helped because even had strange kind of

working as the ears of the audience or eyes or

whatever you want to say where he's like I have

no idea what you're saying Like how that how

that sequence in general works for you. Oh, it

worked for me I don't know if it was just because

it was helpful to me, you know, he you know strange

It's like you I don't get it. So the watcher

keeps like, okay, I'm gonna say it in the more

simpler terms Okay, that didn't work. I'm gonna

keep going until you really have this like so,

I mean I think that was helpful I also tend to

like the more sci -fi aspects of So I liked the

story behind why they're watching and what's

in it for them and the stakes I guess you could

say so I actually quite enjoyed that sequence

I wasn't it threw me off at first because I was

not prepared and I wasn't expecting to go there

But I think after reading all eight issues, I

don't That's what this whole thing is about.

It feels like to me is doing things I wasn't

expecting to have happen because People that

are more seasoned with comic books are very used

to crossovers are very used to different people

showing up in different people's worlds Etc.

You know, it's all interconnected universe so

to speak but you know for me only being exposed

through movies They're set groups that work together

and you know, you have your You know your Avengers

Group you have your x -men group, you know, you

have you know All those different groups are

separate in my mind because of the movies and

it was like wait a second how to How does Sony

and Fox and you know, just kidding they had nothing

to do obviously with comics But I'm just saying

like it's like where am I getting all these characters

that I'm not used to to seeing together I'd stopped

trying to you know form expectations of who would

be who and who wasn't because I think that's

what helped add some of the mystery at the beginning

was Okay, I think that's that character, but

I don't know if that character would be in this

story, you know Who's the rights to that character?

So I think it was it was interesting how many

times I was shocked or or at least Saw something

that was unexpected but back to the watcher segment

Yeah, I think that that helped me out a lot and

I enjoyed both from a story standpoint and from

Helping me out as far as help me understand what

all the different connecting strings are in this

Yeah, and you know, obviously the big the big

piece of this is having Taking the Marvel universe

and placing everyone into the 17th century and

kind of seeing how that world would look And

the effects of it and I do wonder though there

might be a piece there that that was helpful

because in that watcher conversation he mentions

like the 616 universe and How this is taking

place within that and I could see for someone

who's not familiar with comics like why that

would like how that Changes the story and the

reason why that does because this is gonna get

rather geeky and I apologize, but so basically,

you know Comics exists and the idea where there's

all these alternate universes and things like

that more DC has their multiverse and so does

kind of Marvel The difference is like so for

Marvel Though it's changed like the the like

every universe had a number and the universe

that all the Marvel characters like the main

Marvel characters existed in was the 616 universe

like that was kind of the universe they resided

in so that conversation indicating that this

is that universe it's like oh this isn't an alternate

timeline now this is taking place in the actual

Marvel universe but okay but there is um things

happen and caused it to change in a way it although

Is that really what's happening is because there

are some elements that look towards the future

That obviously or you know with more with Marvel

Comics. There's no actual future ever You're

never really gonna get there because things will

be written or whatever, but it's not necessarily

a requirement like if you didn't know that it

doesn't really matter because it's you know,

this is the story it's being told but that's

One element where I think um, sometimes not having

that would be like I have no idea the year what

six one six means that's oh, I guess this is

right I think I just bypass right past that because

i'm like, I don't I don't know what that means,

but i'll keep going because Maybe it's important.

Maybe it's not I wasn't sure on that one at all,

but I do think it is interesting that they That

they are dealing with if you're saying that you

know, they're dealing with basically the right

universe just different time periods in that

universe and kind of how that can mess up the

future or not mess up the future etc so i i like

time travel stories in general so i find that

interesting and kind of the ramifications of

what happens so yeah i i didn't pick up on that

but it didn't necessarily bother me or or i wasn't

aware that i wasn't aware of something exactly

sometimes ignorance is blessed One thing we didn't

talk about, minus just the layout of the comic,

was the art in general. How did that work for

you? Because was it a style that really caught

your attention? Or you mentioned, I think previously,

that you really didn't pay much attention to

it because your eyes are more on the story itself.

Did try to pay attention to it because I know

it's a big part of comics in general So I would

say that it wasn't necessarily a style that just

like jumped off the page at me so to speak But

I did think that they had some some pretty impressive

visuals from a couple different points. I think

there's a cell in the second issue of doom that

was That kind of took me aback I really like

you know when they do like a full page or like

a you know Even some of the bigger ones because

it just gives it more. I don't know pizzazz.

They do a similar one with Magneto So those two

kind of really jumped off the page with me. I

think there's some stuff towards the end with

strangest character. That's pretty graphically

interesting I think the only The only of these

cells that I found somewhat frustrating was the

ones involving and a character that's not visible.

So it was weird to try to figure out because

a couple of them you could see like the outline

and a couple of them you couldn't. And then sometimes

there was an outline, but I wasn't sure where

the head was or where like I would have had to

spend some time, I guess, like actually looking

at those a little more carefully. But I think

there was a lot visually that was was interesting

that was neat. But I don't know if I would say

like it's a style that like amazed me. But like

I said, I did really like the Doom and the Magneto.

I think they were both full pages. Andy Kupert

is the person who draws them. I think for me,

I think what works about the art is that it certainly

fits in tone with a story like this. There are

future installments of the series not done by

gaming, but they kind of continue the story.

Even though I don't think necessarily in the

onset it was actually designed to be that way.

But I don't think they're... work stylistically

as well. It feels of the time if that that makes

sense, but it has certainly that feel and I like

I just love a lot of those lines of the characters,

especially the way they do Daredevil basically

and yeah his luck as well as the way keyword

does his motions. There are like two sequences

specifically where you seem like going up into

the like his acro acrobatics. I just love the

way that it's like laid out. You see like the.

Faded version of the character. Yeah, it is like

that. So it's just really easy action file and

there was actually not like there was Not that

much I'd say in these in the realm of action

in this are really small bits here and there

but a lot of it is it is a lot of conversations

or things like that which is hard to do I think

as an artist because you're you're basically

you're Given not, I say not given much to do,

but your, your work is really just getting emotion

out acting wise. And so you don't have those

splash pages, but when they did come, I thought

they were effective. But I think it's certainly

a muted style, which I could see like at first

glance is not, doesn't seem all that breathtaking

or anything like that. Yeah, but I think you're

right. It does definitely fit the time period

and the kind of the tone that they're going for

in this I did I forgot to mention the book I

did definitely like some of those action sequence

where they kind of showed like the different

phases of somebody moving or flipping or doing

different things like that I thought that was

cool. There's also a couple different times where

they do like flashbacks I'm gonna say flashbacks,

but where it goes away from the style the traditional

style of you know You have like your different

black Outlined cells, etc. There's some like

full page things, but they have like five or

six different images And then there's different

like flashback text, I guess kind of placed in

different little boxes here and there Like specifically

towards the end of the very first issue like

page 32 and 33 They have those those full page

things, but it's not one image It's it's like

five or six different scenes and I thought that

was really cool because of the the different

way that they did the background I kind of had

them just Set in there, I guess it gave you a

little bit more. I think I highlighted the images

a little bit more and the text was more secondary,

whereas when I'm viewing the regular cells, it

was almost like the text was first and then the

images were secondary. Yeah, yeah, we're in general

like the the basic. Great for comics is like

a nine panel grid and he does that here in there,

but in those pages that's basically removed and

what you have is really kind of a giant splash

page in a way where each section is kind of.

The layout is much free, there's no specific

structure, but it works because all the images

blend into one another really well, and even

I think does that a lot. I've only read a little

bit of Sandman, which is like the first thing

he did. I only read the first volume. Sacrilegious

I know but and that's very common like he he

does that a lot where he breaks that kind of

normal grid that You have more well earliest

in the script Provided the artist sometimes that's

the thing with comics You don't know like you

did not having the actual script what they're

telling the artists to do and what's really did

the artist's interpretation but Right one thing

I didn't want to talk about because we actually

talked about this before we started recording

So I gave this to Kevin and issues and not realizing

it. You mentioned up front, you're asking regarding

some of the first pages where they have all those

breakdowns where they're kind of introducing

the comic every time. And I brought up asking

why they do that or if they do that all the time

and reading this... in this in this format was

that frustrating because it's did it feel like

every time it basically like to go back to the

game of thrones it's like previously on game

of thrones did it feel like it was kind of going

back every time you're reading it knowing you

were kind of recapping everything that came came

before um i don't think it necessarily bothered

me at all i i a couple things i really enjoyed

that each issue did number one was right after

you get past the cover where there's the page

that gives all the credits as far as the writer

illustrator etc at the very top it'll say 1602

part one part two part three part four whatever

and under that it has like a statement like a

catch line type of thing kind of sum up i guess

what you're getting out of this for example part

four says in which much is explained and things

do not always work out for the best like i enjoyed

seeing those as a precursor of what i was about

to read to kind of frame it a little bit and

i think for the most part those first page summaries

so to speak were helpful for me so it didn't

the only one that kind of stood out as far as

a little bit of taking me out of the the story

a little bit was in issue issue five because

in issue five it's almost like i don't know if

they did this because it was the halfway part

of the party had four and we're about to start

another four but there's literally a page where

it has seven characters on the left and seven

characters on the right just like the little

squares with their headshots And so you kind

of have a breakdown of all the characters and

then all the way down the middle is basically,

like you said, like this is what's happened recently,

but then there's like a little image at the bottom

of Andy and Neil. I'm First Nathan Basis with

them already. It's basically almost outside of

the story, so to speak, so they're kind of talking

to each other. I wasn't sure if that was something

that was common. Because I enjoyed seeing all

the characters and kind of getting the the summary

of what's happened so far But then it was weird

to see like those two I think at the bottom just

talking to each other Yeah, I wouldn't say that's

super super common like it everyone kind of handles

that process a little bit differently and I mentioned

that often in like When this is in trade, some

of those pages, those intro pages aren't included

because you're reading it all in one chunk. But

Stan Lee instituted this methodology when it

comes to comic book making that, or Marvel at

least, that, you know, any comic is someone's

first comic. So the idea is like putting things

up front that anyone could pick that up and read.

So people, I think, have different methods in

doing that. Like I recently read an issue of

the Defenders comic book with Brian Michael Bendis

and it's legitimately like... Deadpool talking

directly to the audience and with some like,

you know medic meta contacts and things like

that So and some people are just really blatant

Here's what happened. I think everyone has their

own different take on how to Introduce a new

reader into this it's different seeing it like

in a comic like this because Often when you have

something that's so specific and so within its

own story that it's not like your typical spider

-man or whatever They don't have those because

it's like almost I guess Assume that people are

wouldn't pick this up, but I don't know right

it's been like I said, this is It's changed.

I think a lot in last 10 years where we don't

see it as much especially now with the internet

It's a lot easier to go on Wikipedia and catch

things up. I guess but for sure Was there anything

else specifically regarding the comic or questions

or comments or you want you wanted to talk about?

I guess from someone like you that's that's read

a lot more Marvel and DC Comics and stuff like

that Like what is your enjoyment from this series

or this set of comic books? Like where does it

stack up as far as would you say this is? Good

bad one of the best one of the worst in the middle

somewhere. Like how do you like it? That's a

good question So way back when when we started

doing talking in circles podcast one of the first

ones we did We were like our top five Graphic

novel was a comics of all time and this wasn't

in there for me But like I said it was it's been

ten years since since I've read it And I don't

know if it would I've read a lot more since then

so I don't know if it would be there But it ranks

really high for me because a lot of reasons why

you enjoy a book like this or reasons I recommended

to you as reasons why I really enjoyed I do enjoy

alternate timeline stories. I love The history

that this is about especially this time period

stuff with the templars and um that naturally

has my My interest in like the new world discovery.

I also find I find the story itself It's dense

as i've talked about many times, but I find it

really intriguing. I love the different interpretations

of the characters I love how I love neil gamen's

writing it it there's a poetry to it and it His

dialogue feels naturally of the time but also

easy to follow, you know, it's like sometimes

you watch old Uh, you watch dramas of, of the

time period and just the dialect can, it feels

authentic, but it's, it's so foreign. It's like

listen to a language you've never heard before,

but this I found like it handles the balance

quite well. Yeah, I enjoyed the writing. Oh,

sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I was just

gonna say you said that there was almost like

a poetry aspect to it, like even specifically

with like Matthew Murdoch's character where he's

singing a lot, you know, there's a lot of different

times where he puts little, he's asked to sing

or he's singing different lines and whatnot.

And you could tell that even within that. Like

that wasn't just words that was somebody who

thought of it as if someone was singing it because

there was an actual cadence to it and a rhythm

So like it made it make more sense and make you

feel like you were more in there And hearing

these people like I could actually hear him singing

those lines instead of just reading the text

Yeah, and I just love the ideas that how they

would approach these characters like having the

x -men like being so related to religion and

the Spanish Inquisition and how that would, you

know, a Magneto in this world is different in

the sense that like, he has the same ideals,

but in a way that he doesn't like in, you know,

the regular universe, he's very much like mutants

first, but there's an aspect here where it's

like, mutants that are not as obvious, obviously

to locate based upon, you know, just their look.

And just you know, just I find the interpretations

really interesting because it's really easy to

do what we're gonna put these characters in the

past and Not do anything really creative with

it where this I felt every character The approach

to it was like there was a lot of thought put

into it and it was executed really well Yeah,

I think it definitely felt like they were part

of that world and part of you didn't have somebody

that necessarily stood out Because of the costume

and because of the naming because of how they

were acting and stuff like that I I'd like to

see in some of the ways that they played with

the origins a little bit or the not necessarily

origins of the characters but origins of maybe

aspects of the characters or artifacts or different

things like that you get a little bit that with

doom and His face and you they they play with

the Peter Parker origin a lot because you you

keep seeing Spiders around but they don't necessarily

do what you expect them to do right away. So

I like what they did with that I just think there's

a number of different things like that that is

kind of interesting to see Kind of how their

take on how certain aspects that we know of those

characters may have come to pass or at least

in this world did Yeah, yeah that the Peter Parker

thing was pretty funny like that ongoing joke

I don't know if you'd call it a joke, but like

that beat I thought was done really well Yeah,

so they kept hinting at it, but not giving you

what you thought you were going to get Yeah,

so right from the beginning. It's like oh Outside

of that, I mean, there's still a couple characters

that I don't know if I'm supposed to know them

from a comic or if they were just made up for

the story. So outside of those couple questions,

I think everything else kind of tied it up formula

for the most part. The ending does kind of leave

it a little. I think if I had a complaint, it

might be in the last few pages or so, because

I felt like I wanted a little bit more as far

as the repercussions of what took place and.

They did, in a way, show you a couple different

things, but I was almost like, okay, now I just

need to see like two or three more pages or five

more pages to kind of give me a little bit more,

not necessarily closure, so to speak, but a final

have been a little bit more or something at the

end, but that would be a very minor nitpick.

Yeah. And like I said, there are additional series

that go... Correspond with this but I think they're

interesting to read they're not like it's 16

on to the new world where it deals a lot more

in the Obviously the you know the colonies and

things like that. Mm -hmm. I remember I was when

I read them back when they first came out. I

was rather disappointed It's been a while So

I would be interested in revisiting them to see

maybe if they're better than I than I realize

or if it was just Anticipation because it's a

different style. It's in different writer. I

believe on top of my head, but not to spoil anything,

but like kind of the reasoning behind it was

why this was all happening. It still kind of

struggles. I struggle with it because I feel

like there was something there, but I don't know

necessarily if it like worked as well. Like it

seemed right. Like almost did you really need

that? Did it really need that catalyst of this

is cause of all these things from happening?

And was it really paid off as well? That I'm

not sure about, but right. It's still not a huge

attractor for me. No, no Yeah, no, I think so

too. I think like it's on me I don't know if

I would call it anticlimactic but there is almost

like a It didn't maybe hit as well as the rest

of the story had so it almost feels like a letdown

But it's not necessarily because it still works

within the framework of what they're doing So

it wasn't like it was a negative necessarily

It was just like I don't know if that one quite

hit as well as all the other things that you've

been doing Setting up to that and almost would

have been you know, you could have had it somewhat

of a mystery So to speak or kind of some hints

of stuff without maybe doing it quite that way

but that's like again that's very nitpicky and

kind of looking back on something and trying

to it's like the the monday quarterback or whatever

you want to call it so but yeah i think i think

it was overall a good um a good choice and and

i enjoyed my time with it and it might get me

into revisiting some of these characters because

i want to see some more about dooms in other

forms yeah so speaking of that so now that The

other piece of this is thinking, where else could

you go from here? Some other recommendations

that would be similar to this, or since you liked

it, or other paths you may go down. And to correspond

with that, some other comics that you may enjoy.

Knowing your love for history and this is the

ones that I recommended up front to you were

the March series which were written by John Lewis

and some other additional writers is basically

these autobiographies of his life and Covers

a lot of like if you see in Selma somewhere like

that That story itself is or that event is obviously

covered in this because he was he was there and

it's really good I think honestly like I enjoyed

it much more than like the Selma Selma movie,

which I did like but I think you would really

enjoy that a lot the good thing about that too

It's also available in most most libraries. Okay,

you talked about how you really enjoyed the he

-man and Transformers comics I know you're big

Hanna Barbera fan And this one I I recommend

with hesitation and it's the Flintstones comic

Which I know may sound weird, but the Flintstones

comic is not what you would expect They don't

really look like anything like the Flintstones,

but it's a very different take in a way which

may anger some purists when it comes to that

property, but it's a Modernization in a way where

it's often it's but I feel like it did What flint

says did at the time it's just very much a Cartoon

of that time that was Reflectionary of that time

period and I feel like they they took that spirit

of it and put it into this. It's very Satirical

very it had a lot of social and political commentary

to it. It's really smart and really good And

it has a lot of the classic like punny humor

and that you would get with the Flintstones.

I don't think they forget everything that brings

the Flintstones together. But if you're looking

in the area of like, you know, Dr. Doom or the

Fantastic Four, because he's usually involved

in the majority of that, trying to think of some

storylines that might be helpful. One that comes

to mind might be it's a classic story. It's in

the sense of that it came out in the 60s or 70s

would be Iron Man Doom Quest which has like the

first major partnership with Iron Man and Doctor

Doom and they go back in time again to the area

to the King Arthur's time period and interesting

and they kind of have to deal with that it's

classic comic books or comic books of that era

are very different beast sometimes the writing

isn't Anything of this nature so it could be

a little bit different But there's also a Jonathan

Hickman has a run on fantastic four that has

deals a lot with dr. Doom as well That's more

modern. Okay, I want to get into that character

So perhaps we can come back on and talk about

some of that in the future. But uh, yeah Yeah,

there's a lot. I'm glad you enjoyed it because

it's always the always the concern But sometimes

if you hated it, it might have been more fun.

Who knows? No, no, I definitely didn't hate it

I enjoyed my time with these guys and definitely

interesting because I know like I said at some

of the characters I knew more about some of them

I didn't and I do like the the the heaviness

of the plot and the text and the dialogue, et

cetera, because it definitely gave you a lot

to chew on and a lot to think about as you were

reading and then after you were reading, too,

as you're trying to put it together. So it was

a fun experience. So if more people wanted to

listen to you, Kevin, or follow you on Twitter,

how could they do that? They can follow me on

Twitter at Optimus Solo. And if you want to hear

more from me, obviously you should be listening

to Cinema Geeks, as well as some variety of other

shows that we do at Geocast Radio Network, where

I tend to pop up here and there. But yeah, definitely

follow Kevin on Twitter, listen to Cinema Geeks,

you can also hear me on there, as well as Kevin's

other shows on Geekcast Radio. And we'd like

to hear what you thought of this episode, what

you think a lot of 1602, anything else you'd

like to hear us cover in the future on Comic

-Con Sierra. You can do that by going to Geekcast

Radio. I'm also on Twitter at MovieRevolt. As

always, comics are for everyone. The key is finding

the right one. Until next time, thanks for listening.

To the ships held out, to the blue and sunny

morning