Interview with Steve Kahn on Fear and Independent Filmmaking

You are now on the inside of what I like to call

the circle of trust. We are all connected in

a great circle of life. You know something, Bert?

What? I think you and I are going in circles.

It feels like we're going in circles. The circuit

is now complete. When I left you, I was but the

learning. Now I am the master. Because it's a

circle. Yeah, we heard about the circle. Yes,

we're familiar with shapes. Hello and welcome

to a very special episode of Talking... Today,

I am joined by a very special guest, Steve Kahn,

who recently written and directed the short film

entitled Fear. I just want to thank you so much

for joining me today. Thanks so much, Dan. Great

to be here. Thank you. And before we got started,

we're talking about weather because unfortunately

in Baltimore, we got hit with a bad snowstorm.

So Chuck and Greg are not here today, but I do

appreciate you coming out with me. And I got

to say, I'm super jealous that you're located

in California. I'm sure you don't have to deal

with the snow quite like us. You know, actually,

I'm sorry for you. It's beautiful here today.

It's a little bit overcast, but it's just gorgeous.

And it's probably going to be about 70 with no

snow in sight. I think the last time we saw 70

was, I don't know, August maybe. Really? Yeah.

We've had a really cold winter. Not so bad snow

-wise, luckily. We haven't been to Boston, which

I feel like gets a blizzard every week. But it's

just been really cold. Yeah, yeah. But anyways,

one thing I did want to start talking about,

I know I mentioned up front that you did write

and direct the short film Fear. And do you mind

just kind of just giving a brief overview of

what that is for our audience? Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Fear is a short film. It's actually I think of

it almost like a poem on fear and kind of what

we go through when when when fear strikes us.

So, you know, it's it's it's so funny to me that,

you know, little things can. trigger these crazy

things that go off in our mind and make us spin

kind of wildly out of control you know you could

you could just see uh nothing like a pimple on

your face and it could turn into skin cancer

in your mind and you just you for at least for

me i mean so this is how it started for me i

mean i would just see see nothing i mean anything

you know something my dog would walk funny and

automatically that could turn into a horrible

crazy thing in my mind And so, you know, I realized

that we all go through that. We all kind of create

these craziness in our head. And I thought that

would be an interesting idea, an interesting

kind of theme for a short film. Yeah, that's

I mean, I definitely understand. I've done that

myself. And we use just something really small,

especially, you know, sleeping at night, you

hear that one noise and you're wondering, it's

like, what could that be? And then suddenly it's

like, I think people are coming to get me when

it's just like a pipe, you know, it's just that.

Right, right, right. And and it's so universal

that we all do that, too. So it's just it's yeah.

So that's that's that's really what fear is about.

What's kind of interesting about fear is that

I've had long had this discussion with people

regarding the difference between like fear and

being scared. I feel like your movie Fear definitely

gets into what I think of when I think of being

afraid of being fearful compared to being scared.

Because I think being scared is more of like

a reaction, like something like a jump scare

or a loud noise. You can like react to it. It's

quick. It doesn't necessarily stay with you.

But I always felt like being afraid or being

fearful is more of a, like you mentioned, all

encompassing it. It grows over time and you kind

of build it within yourself. So I don't know.

Is that kind of your thought process as well?

Because it does seem like your movie does get

going that direction. I think so. I mean, that's

what I was going for. I think that, you know,

ultimately, that's a dangerous aspect of fear.

So when you have a jump scare, you kind of like,

you know, someone touches you behind your back.

And for a second, you know, your heart leaps

into your throat. And then you turn around and

realize, oh, it's just your friend touching you.

And so it's okay. It's not a big deal. But kind

of the insidious fear that can really, I mean,

it can really wreak havoc on your life. It can

drive you. It can really. The fear can drive

you to your own doing because of your own mental,

because what you do with it is the fear that

I'm talking about here, where you just kind of

keep building. And, you know, it can be xenophobia,

it can be fear of other people, or it can just

be anything where it's just, you know, somehow

this race or this thing becomes this evil, scary,

horrible thing in your head. And it can lead

to horrible ends. So that's what I'm really going

for here. And it's interesting. I was reading

this interesting article on the difference between

fear and intuition. So you know how sometimes

you say, God, I'm afraid to go on this plane

because I'm afraid it's going to crash or something.

And I guess the article is about that, you know,

if the fear is an emotional based thing. then

it's just a fear. But if you have an intuition

saying, you know, I just have a bad feeling about

going on this flight and there's no emotion attached

to it, then it's intuition and maybe you should

listen to that. So that's like always a sticking

point for me. Like, how do you know when the

fear is real or not? And so I don't know if the

article is true or not, but I thought it was

interesting that, you know, if it's an emotional

-based fear, if it's something that's just building

in your head and you're kind of losing... control

of your mental faculties because your heart is

just spinning and then it's just a fear and and

otherwise it's intuition so I thought that was

interesting too yeah that is a unique way of

kind of looking at it so was that something you

read after doing a movie or is that I did I read

it afterwards because you know how do you know

you know sometimes you should definitely listen

to a fear so like when do you listen to it and

when do you not and so yeah I read that afterwards

not that that was really interesting yeah So

going through this process, have you come to

that conclusion when you've been able to know

when to act on fear and when to when you just

feel like it's just something that you're manifesting

yourself? Yeah, that's that's the key. And I

think, you know, it's interesting. I heard I

also heard that, you know, when the big tsunami

hit, you know, years ago. So all the islanders

escaped and they all kind of intuitively knew

we better head to high hills and all the Westerners.

They didn't. You know, a lot of them perished

and things. So somehow they knew, you know, they

needed to listen to their intuition and it wasn't

a fear based thing. So I guess it's it's a powerful

skill if we can learn how to do that. And I think

that, you know, no one talks about that, which

is why I was so interested in making this film.

And actually, no one ever talks about fear, really.

We just kind of all react to it. You know, there's

been a ton of movies on love, love stories and

love is a great topic. I don't think there's

been much on what fear is and how do we deal

with it and how can we see it. So not that my

movie encompasses all that. I really wish it

did. I wish it encompassed what's intuition and

what's fear. But it's an interesting starting

point at least. Yeah, I mean, the intuition side

of it, too, is kind of interesting. You think

of something like nature, which you see often,

like, you know, the way animals react and people

were like, oh, something obviously is off because,

like you mentioned with the tsunami, you suddenly

people would mention things like birds and the

way they would feel it coming or, you know, forest

fires or something like that, where a lot of

times the animals are aware of it before we are.

That's a great that's a great point, actually.

Absolutely. So they have that instinctual intuition.

that we've kind of we've buried we we've lost

sight of absolutely yeah so that's yeah yeah

like we've gotten more into the logical end of

it and we you know more so based upon facts and

what we can see or you know use the science but

i think in almost like there's almost a negative

connotation the idea of that natural instinct

we we have in some instances where we kind of

it's like you said something we don't necessarily

use nearly as much in a western society Yeah,

I think you're right. I think there is a negative

connotation about that. They say that when you

buy a house, you should – when you go with your

wife, you should listen to your wife because

she'll instinctively know it's not a house to

buy. And you'll ask her – a guy will ask her,

well, why don't you think it's a good house?

Because we're very logical usually. And she'll

say, I don't know, but I don't think it's good.

It's not a good place. We don't want to be here.

And five years, ten years later, she'll – The

couple will realize, oh, yeah, there were tons

of reasons and she was right, but he didn't listen

to her. So I think that, you know, because our

culture is very masculine based, I guess it's

just because we're very aggressive. Go, go, go.

Achieve, achieve, achieve. And so anything you

can't explain logically is dismissed. And, you

know, that's a shame because you need that balance.

You need both. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Often

when it comes to the movie angle, when it comes

to something like Freighter being fearful. Often

in films, it's that when it's trying to be designed,

they try to think of one specific area, one specific

thing that we're focusing on that they're trying

to get fear from us, like a character or something

like that. But I noticed with your film, the

scope is a little bit larger. It's more atmospheric,

like you said, the idea of fear and the way we

play with it. So is it difficult to try to establish

that type of mood when you're not necessarily

having one area or one thing we're being afraid

of? It's just more the idea of it. Yeah, you

know, it's funny because it is really the atmosphere.

Like, you know, a doorknob falls off the door.

You know, a drawer pull falls off and spins on

the ground and somehow that's scary. Or a duck

kind of looking at you funny is that scary. That's

scary for some reason, just the way it's shot

or the way it is. And I just noticed that in

my own life. You know, that's, you know, sitting

in the bathroom where you're kind of vulnerable.

And I have a girl there and she's naked. So that's

even more vulnerable. And, you know, if you listen,

you know, the wind can blow and howl and that

can just, it can just get to you. So, yeah, the

little atmospheric things, they can be powerful,

I think. Yeah, and they can be very scary. Like

you said earlier, you know, when the pipes kind

of rumble in the middle of the night, that can

just, you know, be terrifying. Definitely. And

your design, when you said you're coming up with

the idea, were you always thinking it would be

located? Because I know most of this takes place

in the bathroom. And that's a huge place where

we all feel vulnerable for a lot of different

ways. Was that always where you thought, okay,

this is where my movie is going to take place?

Yeah, well, you know, when the idea came to me,

that's where it hit me. And so I thought that

was, that's a cool kind of scary location to

start out with. And, you know, I mean, like I

said, there's... It doesn't star me. It stars

a beautiful girl. So having her in there, it

just kind of added up. You know, I think that

when you make a film, you kind of work with your

constraints and what you have. And actually,

a lot of times your constraints can become your

allies. So, you know, I just had it. And so it

just made the most sense. And I even looked for

other bathrooms. I looked for scarier bathrooms

or things that were more gothic. I just – I wanted

something to be very universal and relatable.

I didn't want it to be something from out of

an American horror story because I wanted it

to be – this could happen to all of us. So it's

kind of a neat but kind of generic bathroom.

Interesting. Yeah, I mean it is a great location

to kind of establish this because like you said,

it does have the universal look to it. And often

like when you think of like some of the most

– scary parts of a movie or bathroom locations

you think of obviously something like psycho

or something like that but i know so you don't

use a curtain at all was that just in just to

give it more of an open space is you just have

a lot of white walls and it looks great i was

just curious if that was a purposeful choice

yeah you know i think um i think It was just

to kind of open it up. And your reference to

Psycho, it really is. I mean, I really do pay

homage to Hitchcock a lot because I think he's

a genius and was a genius. And so, yeah, I mean,

absolutely. I think that the visuals of it were

important, too. And I just wanted it to be beautiful

and just wanted to have that kind of old film

feel in a way, too. Yeah, I got to say, I just,

the look of your movie is, it is fantastic. You're

really, clearly you have a really great eye in

establishing like unique imagery. Even I looked

at, I watched the trailer for another short film

you did, The Pink Balloon, which is, again, another

movie that's very visually striking. So do you

have a certain process you use to kind of develop

your own style and maintain such like a high

quality? You know what it is? It's just, I just

am very demanding and patient. with my filmmaking

you know i mean it's so funny because i don't

know if it's in la especially um everyone wants

to put out a ton of projects and it's very you

know the mail -based thing we were talking about

before everything is rush rush rush go go go

where um you know it's not really the quality

of the project you have but how many you have

so and i mean at first glance it looks great

because you know you have like a million imdb

credits or someone goes to your website they

say oh my god look at the videos you've done

look at the films you've done look at everything

and i go through that too i i immediately like

i've seen i see other directors stuff and you

just go oh my god how does this guy do so much

but then when you look deeper um the work isn't

that great and it isn't that great because people

aren't that talented it's just that great because

Kind of the philosophy of being in LA is just

let's crank out a lot of stuff and just throw

a lot of crap against the wall and something

will stick. And I just didn't want to have my

career go that way. You know, I thought if I

can just create a few things. um, that are great

or at least great to me and that are beautiful

to me, then that's, that's a great thing. And

that's, that's what I'm, I want to go for. So,

um, yeah, it's just painstaking, painstaking,

to be honest, Dan, it's just, um, really taking

your time and, um, making sure all the shots

work and then making sure the editing works.

And it's just, you know, the best of my ability,

you know? With that environment of Los Angeles,

I have to assume it's very competitive, like

you mentioned, where people just are trying to

find something that sticks. So it's got to be

a challenge just to stick to your guns and really

care about the product and not like making sure

you're doing something quality over quantity.

I mean, it's got to be unique in that type of

work environment. It is. I think it's unique

in general. It's like kind of how our society.

goes for the most part it's just very much you

know quantity and let's crank a lot of stuff

out and let's have a lot of marketing hype and

you know I understand the importance of great

marketing and and and that but I think you know

I mean I think in the long run if you want to

have something great you have to really take

your time with it and it's funny because my actress

Afterwards, we've gotten really – I don't want

to toot my own horn, but we've gotten some really

great reviews and going to a lot of film festivals.

Afterwards, my actress has really not wanted

to help promote the film because she's doing

a million other films. I see the films that she's

doing, and I'm like, oh my god, you're doing

that? You're doing that? She's not doing major

Hollywood films, and she's not making money off

these films, but she's stuck in this mentality

where I've got to create a lot of stuff. Maybe

it's also tougher for girls and women because

you've got this certain age range. where if you

don't strike by mid -20s, then you're really

over in Hollywood if you're a woman, if you're

a girl, because it's just like the looks start

going, and Hollywood is unfortunately so much

about that, especially for females, that it's

over. So that helps that kind of mentality, which

is crank, crank, crank it out, crank it out.

And yeah, it's unfortunate. And it's a reason

why there's so much stuff that just comes out

as crap. And, you know, we look at it as viewers

and we're like, why would you waste my time?

Why would you show me this and waste my precious

time watching your crappy whatever? And I think

that's the biggest sin that you could ever commit

as an artist is to just waste people's time.

And it's just horrible. So, yeah. As a consumer,

I could definitely agree with that. Because I

think there are a few directories who do. or

the idea of like, they only do certain movies

at certain times who maybe only do like one movie

every few years. And I know like Quentin Tarantino

is one that mentions that he only wants to do

so many, which, you know, he may say that, who

knows if that actually happens, but you do have

an argument over someone who has a 50 films over

someone who has 12 films, but all 12 films are

really great. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's funny. Yeah. Right. We talk a million things,

but yeah, it's funny with Quentin. Did you like

Django Unchained? I did like Django Unchained

quite a bit. How about yourself? You know, it's

so funny because I'm a huge Tarantino fan from

Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs, but I just was

upset because it just wasn't like Pulp Fiction.

It wasn't as good as Pulp Fiction or it wasn't

as good as Reservoir Dogs. So, yeah. It is that

challenge. when you have that one piece that

always gets compared to, I would agree. It doesn't,

it's not nearly the level of Pulp Fiction, but

I think part of it too, it's just like, I like

Westerns and there's such a, you know, you don't

get nearly as much anymore. So almost like you

get something that's at all good. And it's a

Western. I just, I, I do crave that. And absolutely.

I do find it interesting though, that he's going

back to Westerns again, which is something he

doesn't quite often do where he saves it and

stays in the same genre movie for one movie to

the next. He types a keep it. He likes to mix

it up, so that was a little bit surprising. Is

he doing another Western now, you mean? Yeah,

another movie's coming out this year, Hateful

Eight, with Channing Tatum and thinking he wants

Bruce Stearns in that, a few other people. Interesting,

because the way I look at it and the way I look

at my career, I'm not quitting Tarantino. Who

am I to tell him what to do? My feeling is you

got to be better than the last thing and you

got to be bigger and you got to be it's got if

it's not better than forget about it, you know,

and that's I mean, I'm but I'm crazy and like

that. And, you know, like I said, who am I to

tell anyone to do much less Quentin Tarantino?

So, you know, I'm sorry. So how long is your

normal process then when you're so dedicated

and making sure it's better than the last thing

you did? How long does it typically take you

from an idea coming to you to finally getting

it created? So it's funny because fear came to

me. when I was in my last relationship with my

last girlfriend and I kind of, I was writing

all these films and, and things and writing a

lot of projects. And I thought, you know, we

were kind of breaking up. So I thought I should

write something for her because I kind of wanted

to keep the relationship together. My fear was,

Oh my God, I don't know if I want life, you know,

I don't know if life is going to be great without

her. Um, so I wrote this for her and we actually

ended up breaking up. So it never really kept

us together. And my fear was completely manifested

and it took me, um, Not long to write. I mean,

maybe a few hours to a day, and then over the

time I would kind of edit and polish and polish.

But writing was easy, and it took us about five

nights of shooting. And I think the reason that

might have been difficult was that Jessie was

a new actress. She was on America's Next Top

Model, but she hadn't acted before. I knew that

it would be a challenge to teach her how to act

because she was such a newbie. But she was smart

and she worked hard, which was good. I'm sorry?

Yeah, go ahead. And then it took me – it was

probably about a year in editing and color correction

and video effects, visual effects after that.

So you're pretty much doing everything except

for the acting portion, writing, directing, editing.

Everything, yeah. You mentioned Jessie. I was

kind of curious about how the process was in

selecting her because clearly her look goes a

long way. I mean that could also be part of the

video editing that you do and getting the motif

of the film. So was it a long process in getting

someone for that role? It was because I went

through a lot of people and just – she's just

– you're right. She's just not the typical Hollywood

girl, beautiful leading lady look. She's atypical

and – but she's really interesting I think too.

I mean she's smart. but she's very vulnerable,

which is what I wanted. And she's also got this

kind of old, almost Rosemary's Baby kind of Mia

Farrow look, which I wanted because the film

is kind of a throwback to... The golden age of

horror, which I think of as like Hitchcock and

Roman Polanski, Rosemary's Baby kind of time.

So she was perfect in all those ways. So the

fact that she wasn't really an actress. I don't

know. It's funny because I always feel like if

I can do something, anyone can do it. So because

I feel like I've always kind of been an actor

ever since I was a kid, I feel like anyone could

do it. So going into the project, I really didn't

realize that she really wasn't an actress. So

that was a fun challenge. But, you know, challenges

are fun and meant to be won over. So, yeah. I

assume it's even a little bit more challenging

considering the fact she's not. seasoned actress

and she's by herself and she's just all the focus

is on her so right and she's got to react off

uh she's got to react off of a duck you know

flying around or whatever it is yeah that's that's

hard stuff for someone who's not a seasoned actor

it definitely is and so but she did she did well

she she worked hard which is great which is really

the number one thing you know really trying so

yeah So do you end up playing a little bit of

a role then since she doesn't have another actress

to play off of that? She's really just relying

on you to get a better idea of what she should

be doing scene to scene? Absolutely. So I would

cue her. I would try to play off her and I'd

let her play off me. It's really, you know, acting

is really pinch and ouch. You know, it's really

hard to say ouch if someone's not pinching you.

So I would be the one kind of behind the camera

or wherever pinching her in some way metaphorically

to get. a certain reaction from her and that's

not i mean to be honest that's not um anything

that's unusual or anything that i had to do with

her because she's a new actress it's just it

just you know it's easy because you don't want

to have to say ouch unless you really feel it

and if you really feel it then it's really re

-looking so uh yeah That definitely makes sense.

I noticed too, like you, we were talking a lot

about fear and getting that established. You

mentioned the duck. And one thing I really liked

about the film was how you played with sound

a lot and specifically silence. There were moments

where maybe you heard absolutely nothing. It

was just really quiet or sounds where you just

maybe hear water dripping. And that's not something

you really see a lot in movies. Sometimes people

are apprehensive to be. quiet or allow for silence

so was that a purposeful choice you know we making

sure that we actually have time just kind of

to be in the moment yeah i think so i think that

you know Just the nature of how fear would strike

me. I would have a quiet moment where it would

build with my head. So to reproduce that in film,

I needed those quiet, long shots where just not

much is happening except a very subtle reaction

on Jesse's face or even a crazy shot of a radio

that you cut to for a moment. Yeah, all those

are very purposeful to bring that to play. And

like I said, and you're right, that's not typical

in a lot of modern filmmaking stuff. You kind

of go, you know, typical now is Michael Bay,

you know, jump cuts all over the place. But,

you know, that's, I mean, you know. More cuts

than minutes in film, basically. Yeah, but I

think that you have to do what's not typical

if you want to stand out and if you want to be

great. So, yeah, I think if you're doing something

that's already being done, you're already in

the past tense. So I'm hoping that – well, I'm

hoping that by – drawing from the past, which

is something that Quentin Tarantino loved to

do like a lot too. He had, he loved the seventies

and he's like, Oh, these seventies movies are

amazing. And he's right there. That's an awesome

error. So Sarah, so he would draw from that all

the time. And, and he, you know, you, I don't

think anyone else caught up, caught up on that

and started bringing back all these seventies

references and icons like he did, but, but it's

interesting, you know, and it makes him unique

and special as a director. So, so how do you

do that? Cause that's, I mean, that's gotta be,

Something that's almost impossible to do to stay

in such a crowded field and to stay ahead of

the pack and be unique, but also relatable in

some way. Yeah, I don't know. Good question.

I think that you have to really have your own

vision and just stick to it and not be afraid

that no one else is doing it. I think in any

field, if you do that, then you could be ahead

of the pack and unique. And that's the hardest

thing. It's the hardest thing to be like Prince

and say, okay, I'm going to wear this silver

thong on stage or whatever it is that Prince

would do. But the guy is unique and no one is

like Prince. And it's the hardest thing because

we're really pack animals as humans. We love

to be part of a pack, especially guys, I think.

I think guys like to be like, hey, we're going

to – be together we're gonna like fight whatever

we're gonna fight together and if one guy stands

out in a weird way it's almost like i mean at

least i feel this it's almost like something's

wrong with him or is he gay or what's going on

with this guy? So for me, the battle has always

been that. I want to be part of my guys and be

able to fight together or achieve whatever we

want to fight and be part of that pack mentality,

which we're so drawn to. But at the same time,

you want to stand out and be separate and unique.

And also to be a leader, you have to be that

way. You have to say, okay, I'm going to stand

out. You guys kind of have to answer to me, and

I'm going to be the one unique person standing

out. So I think if you can be brave enough to

do that, and it's not an easy thing, and something

that I work with and fight for and fight to do,

fight my instincts to do all the time, then you

can really stand out in any field, not just in

filmmaking. And that's how I think people do

stand out. Definitely. I mean, go back to the

idea of fear versus intuition. And a lot of time

it's our intuition or our desire to be within

like everyone else. Or you want to stand out,

but in a way that is not too much where you're

too unique. You want to be unique, but not to

the point where you're an outcast. But you also

want to be a trendsetter, but also it's all these

different emotions that we play with as people.

Even as adults, you'd think you'd get away with

that. Even like a normal work environment, like

what I do, you see that in a lot of ways where

people tend to like to follow patterns and whatever

patterns are set, they tend to like those patterns.

There is this thing we do at my work where you

do something, something like a fun fact, just

randomly to kind of break the ice. And one person

will start with something like, hey, something

about vacation and like something vacation they're

going on. And then suddenly that's what everyone

else is talking about, just because it's like,

OK, well. I'm going to latch onto that because

that person said it. So it's just like a game

of telephone where everyone's kind of saying

the same thing. So I think it's just, it's kind

of funny that way. Like you mentioned, even in

not just film, but just any field where it's

difficult to be in that position. Yeah. And I

think that, I think that the idea is that push

yourself not to be, you know, and, and, and if

you want, if you, I mean, if you want to be in

that one kind of alpha person, then just push

yourself no matter how hard it is not to be.

And then I think you just get there. So I think

that's – maybe it's as simple and as complicated

as that. Definitely. I know there's a little

more of an added element to filmmaking because

you also have the fact that the audience is there

and that you're making a movie perhaps for the

audience. So as you're making your film, does

that ever come into mind where you're thinking

of the mind of the audience? Are you more focused

on creating something that you feel is unique

to you and something that you want to design?

Yeah, you know, it's – So you brought up Pink

Balloon, and people generally really like Fear.

I mean, not everyone, but it's gotten great reviews.

People just didn't get or like Pink Balloon.

So it did horrible festivals, whereas I thought

it was great, and people who were in the film

thought it was great. The majority of people

didn't. So, you know, and I guess that's okay,

because I think... For me, the person that I

have to satisfy is myself, ultimately. And you

can't second guess and go, who's going to like

this or who's not? Because honestly, I think

there's an audience for everything. And I think

there's a ton of people who would watch Fear

and just hate it. And there's probably a ton

that would love it. And I think the ton that

hates it are not wrong. I want people to like

my film, but I just think that everyone is so

unique and different in their tastes that you

can't try to pander to everybody because then

you'll just get this kind of what we see on TV

a lot, which is kind of just this bleh. You run

the risk of being generic. Yeah, very generic.

Yeah, I mean, especially in the society we live

in and the culture we live in today, everything's

so scattered. There's so many different little

facets. It's hard to appeal everybody because

there's so many different opinions and like it

almost like no matter what you're into, there's

an area there. So it's hard to even like know

where the center is because people are so all

over the place. Right. That it's hard to even

like if you're going to shoot for the center.

Well, I have no idea where they even go. Yeah,

absolutely. I think that you also to do what

we do, you know, to do what you do or I do is.

You have to really love it. You have to just

love every moment of it. And the more you love

it, the better it's going to be and the more

invested you are. So you have to have fun. If

you're not having fun with it, then in a way,

what's the point? We should just become lawyers

or something else just because it's just – so

loving it is really important. And so for you

to love it or for me to love it, I just – I'm

really doing something that entertains me. Definitely.

Because I could think of more of a podcast. I

like doing podcasts. I like talking about movies.

But I see some people who end up talking about

a movie because that's what's out at that moment.

They don't really have any interest in it because

it's the movie of the weekend. And I just don't

want to do that because I don't want to watch

something just because I want to be in what everyone

else is talking about. it'll become more of a

job and more something that I do just because

I have to. And that's not why I do this. Right.

So I feel like that would be almost like taking

away something you enjoy. Right. And I, you know,

I understand that pressure too, because there's

so much pressure to be of the time and to be

very current and to kind of post on Facebook,

your immediate reaction to 50 shades of gray,

which was just came out last week or whatever,

you know, the newest movie that's just out right

now. Well, I actually want to see that really

badly. Not really. Yeah, right. But you want

to see it how to see how horrible it is or whatever

or just, you know, whatever pop culture thing

is going on. So, yeah, I think that's another

just difficult balance to make to make because,

you know, you don't want to be a fossil and you

don't want to be, you know, like a guy in a cave.

But, you know, I think there's there's you need

to be of the times, but also timeless. And that's

the balance, you know. So you mentioned the idea

of like doing something you really like to do

and the fact that you've been acting for such

a long time. So has movie making been always

something you aspire to do? Yeah, ever since

I was a little kid, I would write. And I was

in a lot of plays when I was I did a lot of community

theater, but I would I would write tons with

with my friends. And we would get these video

cameras and shoot stuff all the time when I was

like a kid and teens and stuff. And it was always

a fun thing and always kind of a dream and fantasy.

Yeah, so it's always been fun to play like that.

Did anything inspire you to kind of get up and

pick up that camera, or was it just curiosity?

I guess maybe some great movies, like me when

I was a kid, like Raiders of the Lost Ark. I

remember trying to figure out locations for my

own version of Raiders of the Lost Ark, and I

love that action and that adventure and just

that fun of it, just going to a different world

like that. And I was also, I mean, a really nerdy

little kid. So, you know, when you're a nerdy

little kid like that, you know, you don't have

that big of a world. You know, you don't have

that many, maybe you don't have that many friends

and you're not like playing all these sports.

So you kind of fall into your fantasies and just

make things happen that way. interesting so you

mentioned you know with fear it's more of the

horror thriller rhyme and action adventure with

the rage of the lost ark so are you a type of

person that just likes film in general you just

like pretty much anything and everything just

things that are you know i have high quality

you know what i like anything good anything high

quality you know i mean from any from rap music

to to classical to any kind of filmmaking you

know and i to be honest i never even thought

about horror before this film this is my first

horror or the process and i loved playing with

the genre and actually horror is a great genre

because at least for me i mean it's just beautiful

if you look at like american horror story the

way it's shot it's beautiful so um i love beautiful

things and and horror works nicely for that it's

interesting yeah i would Horror is often one

of those genres where you have people who are

like that's all they like or that's like what

they're into or it's a hard genre to get into

because there's a lot of horror films because

it can be easy to make a horror film but it's

difficult to make a really good horror movie.

As a person that has so many – a variety of things

you're into, does that make it easier as a filmmaker

since you have so many things you can pull from?

I guess. I mean, yeah. Like, I mean, I'm very

selfish. I just – I want to do what I want to

do. And so, yeah, I mean, but, but horror appealed

to me and I thought it was interesting. And I'm

actually, I really do think it's more interesting

now. And I may, may stay in that genre a little

bit because, because it's, it was so fun, but,

but, but, you know, horror fans are great fans.

It's, they just love stuff. And I was, when I

put this out, because I'm, I'm new in the horror

film industry and genre. I didn't know how fans

would react because it is kind of an old school

horror film. It's not like the modern slasher

stuff that you see. And that stuff scares me

to hell, but it's not like that. It's kind of

a Hitchcock or Roman Polanski kind of old Rosemary's

Baby kind of horror film. And so I was really

afraid that the horror people, horror fanatics

would just hate it and shred it. And so when

I gave it to these horror sites to review, I

was expecting – just you know for the worst but

that they love it which is great so they're really

open and really they love all aspects of horror

and they're not just you know crazy about about

the modern stuff but they like the beautiful

slowness of of the film and that really got me

jazzed because um Because no one else is really

doing it. Or it's not being done much. I mean,

I'm sure people are doing it. I just haven't

seen much of it. I see the modern thing, which

is scary. It's how, like I said, it works great.

I think horror and action definitely have certain

times where they go certain periods where it's

like that is the thing in horror. You have the

slasher films or you had the big rush in the

late 90s, early 2000s. the imports of the Japanese

horror films like Ring and then you had influx

of things like Paranormal Activity. So you do

see often where there are certain elements that

become popular within the genre, but it is great

to see those old school type of ones that are

more so outside of that norm. Yeah, yeah. You

talked about putting your film out there within

getting it to the horror fans and things like

that. And we talked about how how hard it is

to get into that business and we are very much

in the age of the blockbuster where it seems

like movie studios aren't even really interested

in doing a movie unless it's unless the budget

is 200 million dollars or more so as an independent

filmmaker what is you know do you feel like it's

a i've heard differing opinions regarding this

that people say it's an awful time for people

that are in the independent film or some people

that say it's actually good a pretty good time

since you have you know things like digital media

where you can put your film out there and Like

you said, doing it yourself. Yeah. So I was curious

about how you felt about how the atmosphere is

for an independent filmmaker like yourself. You

know, I don't know. I don't know. I think that

if you look at it from one perspective, it could

just be horrible. I mean, films in general are

pretty bad. They're not like, I mean, TV is an

episodic ruling as far as quality and great stuff.

When you have House of Cards or Breaking Bad

and you have these shows, they're just the best

shows ever that have been on TV. And then you

have these movies coming out like Fifty Shades

of Grey or even the Academy Awards, where today

is the Academy Awards. And the movies that are

up for the Academy Awards, they're not great.

I mean, honestly, for me at least, they're okay.

They're good. But they're not like these things

that are just blowing anyone away. And I mean

it's so funny too because no one has even seen

the movies that are up for the Academy Awards.

People are complaining to the Academy that they're

out of touch because all the movies that are

up for the Academy Awards, they haven't earned

much money and no one has seen them. And it will

be interesting to see if the viewership is just

nothing. So if you look at things from that perspective,

it could be a horrible perspective for the industry.

But again, I think if you look at things – like

I want to be ahead of the curve and I want to

be leading the pack, then if you look at things

from that perspective, it's a great time because

I want to be at the head of the wave of the change

that's going to come. And there will be a change

because everything is cyclical. So just as TV

was horrible maybe 10 or 20 years ago and movies

were great, it'll come back again. I think the

key is just to be ahead of the curve and to know

that those things change. And like I said, to

put out quality stuff because, you know, initially

people look at quantity and all the crap you've

done. But then when they see it's crap, they're

turned off. And if you have the quality projects,

then hopefully, you know, after time, it connects.

I think you just have to wait the time. And that's

the hard thing is playing the waiting game and

being patient. Yeah. Yeah. They say patience

is a virtue and it's true. It's hard. It's hard.

It's hard to acquire. Right. Yeah. I mean, right.

Exactly. Interesting. And so you mentioned like

being ahead of that curve. We've talked about

that. quite a bit is there anyone out there today

that you look at and you feel like oh that is

a person that that like okay they got it not

that you want to be that person or be like that

person but they are kind of doing it the right

way that you like those are movies that i do

appreciate and feel like they are more concerned

about the you know doing the quantity over the

quality we're sorry the quality doing the quality

over the quantity you know i don't know if there's

movie making i don't know if there's if there's

that person um you know i felt that way about

Vince Gilligan about Breaking Bad. I thought

he did something brilliant, but then he came

out with Better Call Saul, and I've seen two

or three episodes, and I'm not crazy about it.

But there are definitely people out there who

I look at and go, oh my God, this guy is sticking

his own guns, and he's being himself completely.

I kind of think of maybe like Howard Stern was

like that, where he just was fighting the whole

world. put him down and he just never backed

down to all his own humor you know and his own

way of looking at the world and all of a sudden

now he's becoming this this this huge guy who's

being accepted by by the nation so yeah yeah

it's odd when you really he's on the what the

american right and who would have thought that

that would ever happen like 10 years ago right

but it is interesting those people that were

once like the oh my god, they're the epitome

of all evil, or now on one of the biggest shows

of the summer for a major network. That is very

true. Right, yeah. Showing how much things can

change over time. For the most part, it seems

like he is still staying within his own type

of style. It's not like he's changed much over

the years. I mean, not in a bad way, but he's

definitely not neutered himself, but he certainly...

I think maybe people just recognize him for what

he's good at. Yeah. Especially in a medium of

radio. And you've seen so many people who've

tried to do what he did. And most are unsuccessful,

but definitely has changed it in a lot of ways.

Right. And I think that way about him. And I

still listen to his shows today. And I just think,

man, he's a great interviewer. He is so interesting.

He can really connect with his guests. And he's

kept – he hasn't neutered himself, which is amazing,

which is I think a big, huge challenge. And then

again, how do you do that and then not become

like Kanye West and go overboard and just turn

everyone off? So that's the balance. Trying to,

I don't know, not be a jerk would be the first

step. Right. Maybe not stepping up on stage.

Yeah, that could be the first step. the power

of arrogance, but knowing how to apply it appropriately.

Yeah. How do you, how do you do that? So that's

a, that's a real question. It's almost like the

fear intuition thing where, how do you walk that

line? And it'll be interesting to see how Kanye

plays out, but you know, how do you walk this

line where you want to have this kind of be an

individual and have the highest status and be

kind of the alpha dog, but at the same time,

you know, not step on everybody and be arrogant

and turn, turn the whole nation off against you.

Yeah. I think. I think when it comes down to

it, if what you're putting out there is good

and people of good quality, people can over –

not overlook, but be more forgiving of whatever

your behavior may be. But it's maybe not the

case depending. I think that could be the truth.

I think that that's probably – maybe that's it.

Yeah. Yeah, because you hear a lot of those people

who, you know, those famous artists and musicians

or whoever, actors, actresses who maybe have

done questionable things, maybe not even more

of an arrogant act, you know, legally or what

have you. if what they put out great stuff people

tend to forgive almost yeah yeah unless you're

mel gibson people can forgive you absolutely

but i think if you have like um good intention

and if you're honest i think that goes a long

way too because i think truth so what interests

me about kanye is that you know the no one really

is honest about the truth the truth is such a

is such a a verboten thing you know and that's

why art is great because you know in art you

can really share your truth but in real life

you really can't so you know this here's this

guy who's sharing his well maybe he's not maybe

he's just being he's bullshitting just to get

attention but if you pretend and say okay this

guy's sharing his truth then that's a that's

a great thing right but then how do you do that

you know when when does that become a horrible

thing where you turn people off because i think

I think we love it when – that's why I love art

because it's true and I think that's why we love

like reality shows. Like you watch The Bachelor

and you see the women react and they're just

freaking out because this guy doesn't love them.

Boy, she's sharing her truth and we're all like

– we're riveted to that. So I think that we love

that. We love that and we crave the truth as

a society because we get so little of it. But

I think that the key is – I think if you can

– share your truth in a way that's not stepping

on people and um you can be very um you can be

of like a magnet and so interesting here you

talk one thing that comes to mind are definitely

like people liking to hear truth but necessarily

depending on how it goes, is something like sports,

for example, where you always have those interviews

for sports, and people tend to say the same things

over and over again, but when you get that guy

who says something different, often says something

that maybe is what everyone thinks, but is too

afraid to say, you have that reaction where people

get angry, or yell at something like a... Someone

on the Seattle Seahawks, like Richard Sherman,

would say something that, in all honesty, is

very factual and truthful, but it's not presented

in the way that people want it to be. So then

we react negatively towards it, but then we yell

at people who say the same thing over and over

again. It's like, we want you to say something

truthful, but in the way we want it to be presented.

That's very true. I think that's really true.

Yeah. Yeah. We have so many ways of putting people

out there, like Twitter, Facebook, what have

you. We can share our opinions, but... People

can also hide behind the idea of I'm just being

truthful and almost like as an excuse to kind

of treat people in a disrespectful way by just

saying I'm being truthful. Absolutely. There's

a line of how you present it where you may say

you're being truthful, but you're just kind of

being a jerk. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You talked about how

you may be staying within the horror realm. staying

within that for another film are you currently

in the process of making thing and making thing

at this moment or you're just still yeah i have

some producers who i write for and and we've

been talking about making fear into a into a

feature so and i've kind of been thinking about

ideas of how to go about doing that and, and

carry that out. So I'm just kind of sketching

ideas and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we're, we're,

we're thinking about that and working on that.

It's just, like you said before, Hollywood really

wants these, you know, multimillion dollar films

and, and these Michael Bay things are selling

right now. So it's, you know, the, the, the,

the difficult crux, I guess. And I mean, in life,

there's always difficult, there's a crux to everything

and there's like difficult parts, but here, the

difficult part is, you know, How can I get fear

out there and get the most exposure possible

so that the next step can be possible? So that's

a good question. So if people are listening to

this right now and they wanted to support fear,

watch fear, or get access to it, is there any

way that you'd recommend, anything you recommend

them doing? Well, it's difficult because it's

just on the trailer circuit right now. The internet

exposure, it's limited because festivals don't

like that. We're playing in Oregon and Athens,

Greece in March and in Florida and soon after

that in Canada soon too. It's so hard because

if I announce these festivals, people in general

won't be able to go to them or see them. you

know, it's really limited right now. So, I mean,

that's why I'm, you know, I'm so grateful that

I can come talk to you, Dan, and, and, uh, have

these great reviews and other interviews and

stuff, because it's, that's my real one promotional,

the best promotional, um, vehicle. Definitely.

So is there any, after the festival circuits

are in the future plans to make it more widely

available or is it still? Yeah. I mean, then

it'll be wide, wide, wide, wide spread on the

internet. But, um, it's so funny cause then,

you know, when something's just put on the internet,

it kind of loses its specialness in a way. So,

you know, you have to kind of stay to the festival

route for a little bit to keep it, you know.

Sometimes access can be, too much access can

be, it could be a downfall, I guess. Yeah, I

guess so, yeah. Yeah, just because then it's

just like, all right, well, you know. So what

is that process like, the whole festival process?

It's interesting because festivals, you know,

God, I can go on forever, but festivals, so the

big festivals really ignore you. They really

– you can email them and they say email fuzzles

but they're really bastards because they just

really – they want you to give them $50 to submit

and then they really will never get back to you

unless you really have a big, huge star in your

film or you have a big, huge producer like Richard

Linklater or something like that. Then they'll

get back to you and they'll want your film. But

otherwise, if you really like – if you're not

– if you don't have a recognizable face and if

you're not a recognizable director, then they

really – They don't really want your film. So

they won't really tell you that, but that's really

the honest truth about it. So that's all the

big festivals. But at the same time, you have

to submit to them because if you get into a big

film festival, then it means a lot more exposure

and it helps what I was talking about. So then

the smaller festivals and the genre festivals

are actually great, I think, because they actually

will talk to you. So you can have a discussion.

So you're not just like giving them $50 and throwing

a film at them. them you know maybe watching

it maybe not and then never getting back to you

again but they you can have a dialogue and you

know of course you have a limited film festivals

run for a limited amount of time and they can

only show a limited amount of films and they're

getting tons of films i understand i mean they

get like thousands of films submitted to them

so of course they have to limit but you know

i mean i think If you can have a dialogue with

someone and you can say, okay, well, this film's

not right or this film's right for you, that's

a nice thing. So I think as advice to other filmmakers,

I think if you can create this dialogue, then

I would go for that film festival. And if you

can't, if they won't reply to your email, then

you just... I wouldn't do it. And it's funny

because a lot of my producer friends say, just

don't even submit to these big film festivals

unless you have what they call a producer's rep,

which is really just someone who's in tight with

a programmer or a film festival director at a

big film festival. And then they can get your

film into the festival or at least get it really

to be seen. You know, it's it's otherwise it

just doesn't happen. And it's it's the other

frustrating thing about film festivals is that

so they charge a lot of money. So they charge,

say, $50 or sometimes $100, even more to to get

to have your film just be submitted to the film

festival. So what's so frustrating is they have

like thousands of films paying being paid paying

$50 to $100 to submit. And, you know, they're

really they're they're running their film festival.

on the money that all these filmmakers have paid

them to submit. And these are big film festivals,

but it's just frustrating that a filmmaker who

doesn't have a ton of money is subsidizing film

festivals who should be able to support their

own film festival based on being a big film festival

and advertising and all these things. That is

– I didn't even honestly even know that they

– that is kind of intriguing or kind of disheartening

in a lot of ways that that's something that occurs.

You would think that – Yeah, they really should

be ashamed of themselves. It's horrible. And

it's horrible that they charge that much and

it's horrible that filmmakers whom the majority

of don't have a lot of money have to subsidize

their film festival. And I'm not talking about

the small ones, which you can understand, but

I'm talking about – The big ones. And then the

big ones charge the most. I'm sorry? Go ahead.

And so that's kind of a shameful thing about

film festivals and something that people don't

know about. But it's just horrible because, you

know, so last year Toronto Film Festival, their

big film was Ghostbusters and they had Bill Murray

there. Ghostbusters is 30 years old, but that's

the big film that they're promoting. And not

that I don't love Ghostbusters. I think it's

a great movie. It's funny and great. I love Bill

Murray and I love Dan Aykroyd. Those guys are

geniuses. But it's not a new film. And the reason

why it was at Toronto Film Festival was because

they're promoting Ghostbusters 3 or whatever,

the women's version. So, you know, it's very

much tied into Hollywood and tied into the Hollywood

industry. And it's – the horrible thing is that

little filmmakers are subsidizing the festival

whereas really the film festival is about promoting

a new Hollywood film. Yeah, because you think

especially – it almost feels like a – Like a

manufactured Ponzi scheme in a lot of ways where

it's like, send us your stuff. It really is.

It really is. And you don't know who's watching

it. I mean, you know, the other thing, too, is

like when you go to a film festival, I mean,

I'm a writer, so I script doctor, but I also

write. spec scripts and I send them to production

companies so you really don't know who's looking

at your film or who's looking at your script

and it could be some intern and honestly I'm

sure they're not paying these people to watch

films because I know how film festivals work

in my area they get a lot of interns and the

interns watch the films for free and that's how

it works so yeah so it's very much it's not an

up and up operation it's It's really not a pretty

thing. Yeah, that really makes me re -evaluate

some of those things. I've never gone to a film

festival myself. Oh, they're horrible. So that's

the other thing too. So you go to a film festival

and the ones that I've gone to, I hate because

you see these films that are horrible and you

say, how did this film get in this film festival?

I can't watch this film. And you're sitting there

for hours going like that. So that's the other

thing that's bewildering too. So – and I've seen

horrible films get – I mean legitimately horrible

films get into the biggest film festivals like

Sundance and Cannes. And one that comes to mind

if you want to know a horrible film is – I like

talking some trash sometimes – is Wrong Cops.

Which is just about these bad, evil cops. But

it looks like a YouTube video. It honestly does.

It looks horrible. And I can see the comedy of

it because it's just these bad cops. And maybe

it plays to our societal hate of cops right now.

But it's just basically, you know, cops going,

hey, let me see your tits to girls. And when

they pull the poem over. And yeah, that's the

whole thing. But it got into Sundance Film Festival

and Cannes Film Festival. And you're like, what?

What? What's going on? Yeah, I've heard that.

I mean, I think the good things I've seen for

more of the smaller genre film festivals, like

you mentioned, that I do feel like a lot of those

audiences, when they find a film that they do

enjoy from one of those film festivals, that

they do tend to prop it up or make people aware

of it, especially like the horror films, like

you mentioned, or horror fans, that they do like

championing those movies that they appreciate.

And so I think there are some benefits, but like

you mentioned, that seems like the... There are

a lot of downfalls to that process. I want to

clarify that. I think the genre festivals and

smaller festivals are actually great. And I think

that they're really legit and really like they

want to bring some interesting, good films to

their area. But I mean, when I'm talking here,

I'm talking about the big, huge kind of corporate

Sundance, Tribeca kind of Toronto Film Festival,

which I think is just really, they're just kind

of shills for Hollywood in a way. I always remember

when I think of Sundance, I always think of,

because this is how my mind works, of the South

Park episode that talks about film festivals,

which I always thought was kind of funny. That's

so funny. It talks a lot about the commercialization

of those film festivals that are supposed to

be about the small films that really are just

like Hollywood West or Hollywood East for a little

bit, where it's the same people, just with maybe

smaller questions. Well, right. Absolutely. And

I love South Park. And absolutely, Sundance is

just a reason for Hollywood to take a vacation

and go skiing. So absolutely. Yeah, there's a

reason why they're held in nice locations. Yeah,

yeah. Not many in like North Dakota. No, right?

Not that North Dakota is a bad place, but it's

definitely not the most prestigious areas in

the world. No, it's not your tourist destination.

But yeah, we're coming up an hour here. And I

do, again, thank you very much for coming on

the show. But if people wanted to keep up with

you and kind of keep track of what you're doing,

is there best ways to do that? I guess there's

tons. You could find Fear on Twitter at fear

underscore film. Or I'm on Facebook and I like

– I love like making friends with people and

viewers and fans and stuff too. So you can find

me on Facebook, Steve Kahn, and just – yeah,

I mean – and on Twitter too at Steve Kahn. Awesome.

Definitely, yeah. And I had the opportunity of

seeing Farron. I would definitely recommend it.

I am myself similar to you and I like horror

films but I'm not – uh it's not necessarily a

genre i gravitate towards a lot i but i did really

appreciate it and i like i said it got to that

that idea of fear more so being scared where

especially because i have similar to a lot of

people bathrooms or that kind of thing where

it's like you do feel very vulnerable so it is

very relatable to me in that end so cool but

uh but uh yeah and one thing i did have to ask

though because as i was cleaning this morning

all i could think of is how did you make that

bathroom that white because it was prestigious

oh it was so nice i'm like that is i wanted i

wish i could clean that well well you know to

be honest that that a lot of that is is post

-production color correction effects and stuff

so i want i wanted the film to become to go from

very, very white to black, kind of symbolizing

how her mind goes. So spinning kind of out of

control and goes to the black darkness of fear.

So yeah, in the beginning, it was really just

me using color correction and effects just to

make it look that white and just make it really

pop. Nice. I wish I could do that for my bathroom.

Yeah, no, you can't. It would be nice, right?

I also changed, actually, Jessie was pissed at

me because I changed the color of her eyes. So

her eyes were green, or actually green, but I

made them blue because I thought it was a scarier

color. Oh, really? So she, so I've actually,

I guess you could do that with contact lenses,

but yeah, but the bathroom is difficult to clean

that way. Interesting. Yeah, I would never have

even guessed that that was a digital effect.

Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you

again for joining us today. Joining me, I should

say. Thank you. It's been a lot of fun. Thank

you, Dan. It's been awesome. Actually, talking

to you has been great. And thank you so much

for the awesome interview and for great kind

of great. I wouldn't say an interview, but great

discussion, which was so fun. I really appreciate

that. Definitely. It's been a great time. And

if you have anything else that comes out, feel

free to let us know. It would be great talking

about that. Whatever you have. If Fear becomes

a feature film, I would love to talk to you more

about it. I would love that. Awesome. Well, you

have a great day. We'll talk to you later. Thanks

so much again.