Interview with Pat Shand on the Future of Comic Book Storytelling

Hi, this is Kevin Conroy, and you're listening

to the Geekcast Radio Network. You've just jumped

inside the pull bag. Join TFG1 Mike and the rest

of the comic reading crew here at the GCRN as

they make their great escape into comics. From

DC, Marvel, IDW, Boom Studios, Xenoscope and

more, we have everything you want to read right

here. Transformers comics? Yeah, we cover that.

He -Man? Yeah, sure. DC superheroes like Batman,

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Hate Fairland from Image Comics? Yeah, we have

all that here. Plus, so much more. It's all inside

the pullback here on the Geekcast Radio Network.

So without any further ado, it's time to talk

about the comics we are reading right now here

inside the pullback. Oh yes, but think of the

fun. Hello and welcome to The Pull Bag! I'm of

course TFG and Mike and this is a very special

in -between episode. We have finished with the

Mighty Morphin' March, the Power Rangers, Boom

Studio's coverage from Kyle Higgins and all of

that. This is episode 345 .5. It's been a while

since I've done a .5, I think, and at what seems

like a few months ago now, it's probably only

a few weeks, one of my... Friends someone I interviewed

before several different times. I've read a lot

of his stuff Mr. Pat shand he wrote some stuff

about the comics industry on Facebook and I felt

that it needed a bigger Discussion and I also

actually wrote up a blog post about it. So welcome

Pat. Hey, what's going on man? Yeah, I Don't

know. I don't know what's going on anymore It's

like, people always ask, how's it going? I'm

like, sometimes I wish it would stop. Oh boy.

Yeah. Oh, so for those of you who didn't read

day 65 of my daily blog, basically we're calling

this episode the way of the comic book. Um, and

you had written this post out and I had actually

taken part of your quote from your post and then

someone had asked you in the comments to expand

on it. So I took that and put that in the, in

the, uh, In the in my write -up. Yes. So what

was the initial post that you had said that you

had published online for Facebook? Alright, so

um, I'm actually gonna just read it from you

from your post. Okay People want longer stories

People who didn't grow up reading comics do not

relate to the idea of sitting down and reading

a story for 10 to 15 minutes and then waiting

a full month to continue. Even people who did

grow up with that are buying fewer single issues

and are for sure letting them build up in stacks

for months. The conversation needs to shift away

from the variance being a problem and toward

the larger existential problems within its industry

and art form. Yeah. I've been doing this podcast

for six years at this point. I wasn't someone

that grew up reading comics. I read a comic here

and there, but I was not getting com - my mom

was not getting me comics from Walden Books or

newsstands every single week. Right. Yo, Walden

Books! Always gotta throw that in there. Wow,

yeah. Yeah, that's how old I am now. Man, remember

when, um... It was Borders and Walden versus

Barnes and Noble and B. Dalton. Yep. Good times,

man. Yep. Oh god. So yeah, I mean, and when I

started the podcast, I started getting print

issues and I would get the, you know, the issue

every month or whatever. Usually I'd end up at

the comic shop every Wednesday getting two or

three issues of various, like it wasn't just

one title. I wasn't going to the comic shop just

to get Robin Hood number one or destiny and why

number one or clonsters number one i was getting

you know just a multitude of the i wasn't just

there for one issue i was there for multiple

things that i was interested in like you know

Scott Snyder's running on Batman at the time,

or Kyle Higgins running on Nightwing, or the

Batman Beyond comics, or whatever it is. IDW's

Transformers, Turtles, whatever. It doesn't really

matter what it was. I would usually end up leaving

the comic shop with anywhere five to ten single

issues for that, for each week. And at some point

I discovered digital and comixology and I said

to hell with the print, I need the digital. Yeah,

I'm sorry. I know as a comic writer. You probably

don't want to hear that because no no no here's

the thing I am I sell digital comics to you know,

the the product is the story and The delivery

method is either print or digital and um, I do

believe that uh in both books and comics The

core audience is the physical product audience.

However The digital audience is growing too.

And I think that there is this idea that they

compete when I don't think that's true. I think

that both are essential, essential components

of a writer's survival is to talk to both of

those audience. Right. And part of your comments

about the 20 page story, you're right. I mean,

At this point, I wait for trades. I do not read

single issues anymore, hardly at all. Oh, for

sure. And plus, I mean, dude, like the culture

that we live in, we'll sit down and we'll watch

TV in a row for five, six hours. We binge, you

know, that's what we do. So the idea of sitting

down for 20 minutes and then coming back to that

story in a month is so alien to people who are

reading comics now. Like my wife, when I first

met her she wasn't really aware of comics that

much so she started to pick out little things

that she thought she would enjoy at the shop

while while I was shopping and uh she wanted

to love in comics but she was so frustrated by

the idea of just one issue per month and it didn't

make sense to her whereas reading a trade and

reading for about an hour two hours and then

waiting five months makes more sense to her and

that makes more sense to just pretty much anybody

because they have more story they get to live

with the characters longer because the truth

is when you've lived with the characters for

a longer reading time you you retain them and

their story more with comics if i read a number

one in january by the time number two drops in

february i don't know who those people are anymore

dude You know? Yeah, no, I don't either. I mean,

and how I've been doing the podcast is sometimes

I will like if the trade isn't available yet,

like perfect example is, again, going to one

of the big two DC with their Batman Beyond Rebirth

by Dan Juergens. The latest story arc was target

bat at least the latest story arc from when I

was reading it is target Batman Obviously, they've

moved on they've already published all that at

this point issues 20 to 24 so I wanted to read

it. I wanted to eventually cover it on the podcast.

It will eventually get covered on the podcast.

However, just because I wanted to read it at

the time, I bought them singly. But the trade

just came out recently and I'm like, huh, that

means I have to wait another nine months for

the final joke trade, which is the next story.

Damn it. No, for sure. I mean, um, what you're

saying is true too. And it's, um, what I've seen

is pretty unique that people will buy the single

issues and they'll buy the first one and read

it sort of as a pilot to see if they want to

eventually buy the trade. But, um, I have noticed

that I'll read number one issues, but When I

buy a number two and number three because I love

it Those all end up building up and up and up

and all of a sudden the trade comes out and I

buy it But then I remember wait a second. I have

those all in single issues. Just didn't read

them Yeah, I I knew once I found out about comixology

and I'm like I have to go digital because if

I don't I'm gonna end up killing myself. The

Punisher nearly killed me Quite literally. Yeah.

Well, you know we did this thing Punisher month

back in 2013 the first year of the show And it

was all trades like year one and welcome back

Frank and all that stuff Well, I'm sitting here

holding a physical copy of welcome back Frank

Which is like I don't know four or five six inches

thick Holding it trying to read the story absolutely

loving the story. It's nothing against the comic

itself It's the physical media of a trade paperback

and trying to hold it one -handed because of

my cerebral palsy and it's like I'm reading this

story, but my eyes are getting really really

droopy right now and at one point I actually

dropped the book and fell asleep It wasn't because

of what I was reading. It's because of the exertion

of holding that Physical trade paper back up.

I'm like, I don't care. I'm going digital. It

saves space. It saves this I don't need a million

short and long boxes in my in my office to Collect

the comics. Yeah, I mean that doesn't make sense

to me I am I'm a proponent for I mean, I see

every part of the industry is valid I understand

why there are single issues my My thing isn't

that there shouldn't be. My thing is that that

shouldn't be the primary method because I always

see all these retailers trying to assess what's

wrong with the industry and they have great insight

because they're the ones selling the books. But

to me, it's so weird that retailers always bring

it back to the variant covers being a problem.

It's like they treat the readership as if they

are addicted physically. two variants here's

the thing they buy what they want if they want

a variant they're gonna buy a variant that isn't

the publisher that's the publisher as a company

meeting a demand with the readership if that

wasn't an existing demand the publishers wouldn't

do it right so I don't see why that keeps being

the focus when retailers speak about the problems

in the industry. The problem in the industry

is that we aren't appealing to people who don't

already love comics because people who don't

already love comics, people who didn't grow up

reading comics don't understand comics. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's a, the cool thing about comics

and the comics industry in my mind is that it's

always been obviously a reading slash super Stylized

visual medium. It's like combining a cartoon

with a script of a cartoon It's basically you're

taking a book and you're taking a cartoon and

you're making a comic out of it And it's you

know, it's 2d. It's not 3d. It's not this it's

not that it's not you know, whatever and you

have all these amazing artists No matter what

company they're with. I don't care what publisher

who works where, whatever, I don't care, whatever.

Every single artist I've ever read and I've ever

talked about on this podcast, I may have critiqued

their work at some point if there was something

that looked off to me, but in general, I always

love the art that I see in comics. Yeah, I mean,

I think that we're creatively in a pretty decent

place. Think that we were in a bit of a Renaissance

a few years ago But I think that we're in a pretty

decent place as far as art goes as far as writing

goes to me It's more um, it's more the method

of delivery of the story That's a problem and

I think that um, I also think that our reliance

on genre is a problem and I am culpable as well,

you know, I I keep having ideas for comics that

have a sci -fi horror or fantasy twists, but

the thing is that when people watch tv they aren't

only watching genre tv i want comics to expand

into the genres that people watch all the time

i want more comedy comics i want more crime comics

more romance comics and i'm trying to do that

on my end too it's just that people still gravitate

toward wanting to support what they already know.

It's very much a medium where people only reach

out to see what they already understand in comics,

you know? Like having someone try to launch a

20 issue romance comic is a guarantee that they'll

lose money because that audience doesn't exist

yet. So I'm trying to think of ways that we can

build that audience and make these audiences

out of the people who don't already understand

what we're doing here, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

And I just had a really horrible idea. Oh, boy.

What is it? You'd have to get permission, obviously,

from the company originally that did this. But

basically, can you imagine a world where we would

have adapted every single Harlequin romance into

comic form? Oh, I mean, you know what? That sounds

funny. That would be so successful. Sure, so

successful and that that would expand what comics

are overnight The sad thing is that it probably

wouldn't happen because comics people don't understand

the power of other media They only I've noticed

that most comics people are very comic book minded

and then they grew up reading comics and that

they will read comics to They die and that's

fine. However, I didn't grow up reading comics.

So I'm coming from a place where I was one of

those people who didn't understand what we were

doing here. And then when my world was expanded

and I began to read comics, I was blown away

by this sort of secret hidden art form. Right.

And I think that if we can show it to other people.

And I'm talking about any person. Right. I always

think back to this essay that I believe Robert

Kirkman put in the back of Thief of Thieves,

number one, where he writes that and this isn't

a direct quote but he says that film is for everybody

if you ask someone what their favorite song is

everyone has an answer everyone watches tv everyone

reads books for the most part but everyone doesn't

read comics why it's because they don't understand

what it is when i go on uh a plane to a convention

when I'm talking to a taxi driver on the way

to a con and they ask what I do and the person

sitting next to me on the plane that asks what

I do and I say I write comics people don't understand

what the fuck I'm talking about you know they

don't know what that is you know yeah I mean

and I know I can reference this because I know

you've done it you know what you tell them next

time I wrote for Marvel I wrote Iron Man The

movie no the comic well, I mean I have had that

conversation before and that's exactly how it

goes You know, I went on on Charlemagne the gods

podcast brilliant idiots and as I came in Charlemagne

listed what I did and his co -host Andrew Schultz

says all the movies and I had to go. Oh, no.

No the novels, you know, and The thing is that

that's that's a symptom of the industry's uh

um sort of mystery right that people don't really

immediately think of the comics and that even

when they do They think of just Marvel in DC

when really I think that the bangers are happening

in image boom my companies in space between black

mask vertigo, you know But but unfortunately

people think either of superheroes that were

published in the 50s like they don't even think

of modern -day superheroes They don't think of

Scott Snyder. That's Scott is like our superstar,

right? Yeah, but what's crazy is think about

this The average person doesn't know who Alan

Moore is Right. Yeah That's crazy. That's crazy.

He he's our superstar The amount of people who

don't read comics who know who Grant Morrison

is maybe one in a million dude You know, like

we think that these people are superstars, but

they are to us. However Alright, so in music

If you don't listen to a genre you still know

who the superstars are like I don't listen to

heavy metal i'm aware that the bands exist I

don't listen to um, I mean for for example someone

who only only listens to heavy metal They know

ariana grande exists, right? We don't Sort of

go beyond comics. We have our own little world

here and I think that the survival of our world

needs to Be opened up to the masses so people

can understand what we're doing here because

there's no reason that someone who reads books

Watches movies listens to music wouldn't love

comics. There's no reason Yeah, no, I mean again

a visual medium that tells a story that you can

read within 10 or 15 minutes a visual medium

that tells a story that you can in trade can

read in an hour or so You know? What I find interesting

about trades versus singles is when the whole

story is collected, depending on how dense the

writing is, depending on how in -depth the writing

is, takes me longer. Like, the Power Rangers

stuff from Boom Studios and Kyle Higgins' first

run on that, the first 30 issues or so. I don't

know if it's because I love the franchise, I

grew up with the franchise, obviously. or it's

the way Kyle writes it, or it's the way the artist

presented on the page, but I read all five volumes

within maybe... Each one took me maybe 45 minutes

or less. Whereas something like Transformers

More Than Meets the Eye slash Lost Light written

by James Roberts takes me one to two hours or

I may have to stop and come back to it. Because

James, the way that he writes, he's writing this

long, intense, dense story. And I'm not saying

that Kyle doesn't do that, but Kyle's reads faster?

I don't know. Yeah. That makes 100 % sense. Like

my goal as a writer is to control that. Like

if you read Afterglow or Clonesters, those move

fast. If you read Destiny New York, that is a

much more dense read that you'll, I mean, I hope

that you would spend about an hour or an hour

and a half to two hours with Destiny New York

volume one. Whereas with Afterglow, I think that

you could finish it up in a good 45 minutes,

you know? And I mean, Or less or or even perhaps

more for destiny new york, you know I made that

dance on purpose so that people could live with

it for a longer period of time and It's more

of a character piece. So you stay with the characters

and you Wonder about them and you go on journeys

with them. Whereas afterglow you're kind of taking

it along for a quick journey, you know, and um,

I think that that is one of the positives of

the comics medium and just comics as an art form

in that The writer and the artist very much and

to an extent to the letterer control the pacing

of your read and you as a reader do too you know

it's one of those things where um it's the perfect

mix i mean you said a script in cartoons i always

think of it sort of like as film and a book mixed

together right because with a book you are 100

in control of your pace a film you are zero percent

in control of the pace it just goes with comics

you can control your pace by reading slower,

letting your eye linger on the art. However,

it is the writer and artist's job to guide you

along and control the pace in a somewhat. So

it's sort of this perfect balance between a lack

of control and 100 % control on the reader's

point of view. Yeah, absolutely. And anyone that

says the comics industry is dying, I'm sorry,

there's no way. It's ever -changing. Lots of

things have changed in the last, well, for example,

80 years of Batman. A lot of crap has changed,

but a lot of things remain the same, regardless

of what dumbass Zack Snyder's opinion is. I'm

sorry, Batman doesn't kill. Oh, God. Anyway,

you know, but a lot of things have changed, but

it has never gone away. Since the comics have

been here... all this time, it's never really

gone away. Whereas, you know, TV shows end, TV

shows get cancelled, TV shows only make it to

one episode, or whatever, they only make it to

the pilot or whatever. Whereas comics, there's

thousands upon thousands upon thousands, it doesn't

matter if it's the big two, it doesn't matter

if it's any other publisher, whatever you're

interested in, whatever characters, whatever,

whatever, if you want to try something new like

you were saying earlier, do that, just read.

And anyone, Bill Maher, that says anything about

comics not being true literature can go die on

a fire. Because, I'm sorry, they are a form of

literature. They're not, you know, a two thousand

page book, but they're still reading. As long

as you read, it doesn't matter what you read.

Yeah, I mean bilmar is for sure trolling, you

know, he's that's what he makes his career off

of He's just the troll who says the thing that'll

get the most people up in arms, you know um So

I take what he says with with a grain of salt

because he doesn't I don't believe that he believes

that I don't think he believes anything I think

that he is just this guy who channels the hot

take puts it out there only to get people talking

You know, I don't respect that shit at all. Um,

but uh, yeah, man, you know Comics is just another

art form. It's um, I think that people have this

thing where they think it's um, it's only old

stories are only superhero stories and that's

just not true and uh, hopefully as as indie companies

rise and hopefully in my opinion as As the graphic

novel rises again because the truth is that there

was a conversation in the 90s and It was a pretentious

conversation, right? People were saying, oh,

it's not comics, it's graphic novels. But the

truth is, no, it was comics too. There's no difference

between comics and graphic novels except the

length. So I think that the idea that I have

is that I think that longer comics should be

the answer, you know? The answer isn't getting

rid of variance. The answer isn't changing how

superhero companies operate. The answer is...

comic stories that appeal to a broader audience

that are Longer that people can pick up as a

book and understand what it is People will always

pick up copies of strangers in paradise as an

omnibus They will not pick up copies of strangers

in paradise as a single issue series that people

will always if given the option Who don't read

comics? They'll always go for the longer story

for sure yeah i want the whole story i don't

want like you know it was great at first hey

you know whatever insert whatever number one

here hey great yay okay come back in a month

you mean i have to wait a whole month okay next

month i'm like oh hey let me go back like you

were saying earlier you don't remember what happened

between number one and number two right Used

to have to go back and reread number ones. Oh

me too late, too And it wasn't just number ones.

It was well, whatever issue number It was that

was out like, you know, whatever it is. It could

be you know Clonsters number 50 or something.

I'd still have to go back and read number 49

to figure out what's gonna happen in 50. Yeah

there are specific sometimes issues that I think

and I think that you can read them and not have

to read the previous 999 issues like as we're

recording this detective comics number one thousand

is out and i read the description of that on

comics ology i'm not paying ten bucks right now

for that issue on digital i'm sorry i'm not not

right now but uh... i read the description and

it's basically you know multitude of artists

and writers telling you know their version of

Batman celebrating 80 years of that character

that's cool I love it like a single issue like

that that isn't a specific number one but tells

multiple stories I also love how story arcs play

out but I need the whole story so trades graphic

novels whatever you want to call them yep those

are infinitely better for me than reading the

single issues unless I have no other choice.

If I have no other choice and I have to read

the singles, I will. Yeah, I mean, same. And

I think that people hear people hear what I'm

saying. And they think that I that my idea is

to abolish the single issue. Because the thing

is that in 2019, if you have an idea, people

will look at it and rob the nuance from it. Right.

There's They just take out the half take and

just divorce the context. What I'm saying is

this single issues should be a Prestige project,

you know, they should still exist. The primary

motive story should be a longer comic. That's

true I believe that however the single issue

shouldn't go away. It should be our vinyl, you

know It should still exist for the people who

want it it's a specialized audience for the hobbyists

however if we appeal only to hobbyists we can

never expand and eventually we will peter out

it's not happening now but if we only appeal

to people who already read the the product then

what happens when those people are all dead dude

you know yeah i think what it is is if and you

can speak more to this than i can but i think

that what needs to happen is writers need to

write for the eventual collection. I don't know

if all writers do that, but you take a number

one and you leave it on some sort of cliffhanger

or whatever so it flows evenly into number two

without having to have last time on Clonesters

kind of thing. I mean, what I would say about

that is that I do that to an extent when I put

out the books that I fund on Kickstarter, I will

make a chapter, 18 pages, 25 pages, 40 pages.

To me, being free from the model of, oh, I have

to do 20 pages a month is so freeing. It's so

much better for the story. So that when I put

out the single issue version, like I'll write

Destiny New York volume one. put it out physically

and then I'll release the uh single issues as

the digital chapters on comixology and those

will range from like like I said a shorter page

count like 15 18 pages all the way to 40 pages

right so that is written just the way it was

meant to be written as essentially how I would

write a novel novelists don't have to hit a page

count per per chapter so I was doing that with

my book right and I think that that That yields

a much more natural read and hopefully it translates

to single issues to this I mean I I don't aim

for cliffhangers and any of my stuff But I do

aim to end in a way that will make the reader

want more I just tried to do it in a way that

I don't see as as a cheap hook, you know what

I mean? Yeah, and I don't mean as a complete

cheap hook kind of cliffhanger. I mean a cliffhanger

that, again, I know this isn't yours and whatever,

but you know, we just finished our Boom Studios

Power Rangers coverage and the way Kyle wrote

each of those issues, I felt as if, even though

I didn't read them singly, I'm reading them as

the collection, I felt as if, oh, If I was, if

I had been reading it singly, I would have been

satisfied slash unsatisfied as far as, hey, hey,

this is, this is great. You leave this this way

and you leave us wanting more. That's what you're

supposed to do in single issues. You leave them

wanting more. But at the same time, I want all

the story right now. I have it all right now.

So, um, the way of the comic book folks, it's

consistently changing. Who knows where it's going

to go in the future. You've got a lot of stuff

going on. I do. I do. I do. I do. Yeah. Should

I plug some stuff right now? Sure. Plug away.

All right. Yeah, let's go on Kickstarter right

now. I have the graphic novel collection of my

series little girl It's a horror story of a haunting

toll from the ghost point of view that is on

Kickstarter We are so close to being funded.

Our goal is 8 ,000. We're approaching 7 ,000

I'm not sure if you put links in the bottom,

but if you don't check me out just search my

name Go on kickstarter. We are there. I usually

have a kickstarter going every three months or

so and um, this is my 11th campaign 10 put out

there 10 funded. Let's make it a round. Well,

not round, but let's make it an even 11, you

know That would be an odd 11 because 11 is not

an even number pat See, that's why That's why

I want to shout out to every math teacher. I

listen to you guys, but I am so far from being

a math teacher. I'm very remedial when it comes

to math. You start putting the letters and things

in with the numbers. I'm like, get that algebra

away from me. Yeah, man. I mean, here's the thing.

You know, they teach you all this shit. I wish

they taught finances because I don't I don't

use what I learned in math since I use what I

learned in fourth grade math, but I mean, I wish

they would have given you the option that if

you're going to be a mathematician, take this

dumb stuff. If you're going to be a person, take

a tax class. You know, I've learned so much more

from my accountant than I have from high school

math, man. Yeah, that's crazy. Also check out

Pat's books, Destiny New York, Clonesters. Gangsta

asparista. When is that coming? Yeah. Well, I

know the physicals are already here, but the

whatever else No, the physicals printing this

week. Actually, it's gonna be shipping to backers

with spooky girls in early May And then that'll

be on Amazon In early June and right now on Amazon

my company space between entertainment has Destiny

New York volume one and volume two. We have prison

which volume one clusters book one And Afterglow

is dropping on Amazon very soon. Very cool. Very

cool. Where can the people interact with you

online, sir? Find me online at passion pretty

much anywhere. I have a Twitter, Facebook, Instagram,

and then I'm on YouTube with my company Space

Between. I do reaction videos with my wife. We

have a podcast every week and we have a vlog

most weeks as well. Very cool, very cool. We

hope you guys enjoyed this special discussion

with Pat Shand here on the pull bag. Here. What'd

you say? I just said here. And coming up next,

hopefully it might change, but hopefully coming

up next next month, it's Autobotly April, folks,

where we're going back to the original IDW Transformers

Spotlight. So one character per. issue kind of

thing. We're doing this in an eight part series

over this April and this August, so that's what's

coming up inside The Pull Bag. You can find us

online at The Pull Bag on Twitter. I am at TF2

and Mike. Follow at GeekCastRadio. Make your

greatest game into comics and we will catch you

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