Sean Murphy’s Batman White Knight Part 1

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time to talk about the comics we are reading

right now here inside the pull bag. Hello and

welcome to the pull bag. This is episode 331.

I'm, of course, TFG1 Mike. Joining me for the

first time since our I Hate Fairyland coverage

is Comic Revolve Dan. Hello, sir, the comic concierge.

How's it going? It's going. This is actually,

and I'll introduce the other guests in a moment.

This is actually a pullback comic concierge crossover.

It's actually all the secondary guests' fault

here. Because you had had trying to be DJV from

Simplistic Reviews on Comic Concierge to talk

about Gotham Central. I listened to that episode

and I'm like, oh, we should do DC's black label

Batman White Knight. Everybody say hello to DJ.

Hello, Vinny. It's your Uncle Bingo. Time to

pay the check. Yep. Batman 89. Anybody know Batman

89? Jack Nicholson, Michael Keaton, Kim Basinger,

Arliss. Come on. Of course. Arliss was in there

somewhere, wasn't he? Wow. He was Alexander Knox,

wasn't he? Robert Wall. Yeah. Yeah, that's Alexander

Knox. What's crazy is I saw Pat Hingle in a movie

the other day. It wasn't anything new, but obviously,

I think he's passed on, but I could be wrong.

I think he did die. I don't remember. Commissioner

Gordon in 89. Is it Hang Him High? He's a bad

guy in one of these Clint Eastwood movies. I'm

pretty sure it's Hang Him High. Every time I

see him, I'm like, that's Commissioner Gordon

from Batman 89. Yep, exactly. And the only reason

why I kind of recognized him was not the way

that he looked, it was the way that he sounded.

And I'm like, wow. All I can hear in my brain

is, oh god, we gotta keep a lid on this. If this

gets out... We gotta keep a lid on this one.

The whole city is going to hell. So, Sean Murphy's

Batman White Knight from DC Comics. This is the

first release for DC's new imprint, Black Label.

Now, let me ask you guys, what do you think of

Black Label, Dan? Well, this isn't actually Black

Label. It might, so to clarify, when it was first

released, Black Label wasn't a thing that existed.

uh black label's first actual book that was released

with batman damned and there was thought that

i think the trade uh was going to be released

under the black label branding um it is because

i see the logo right here yeah yeah yeah it's

more you know retroactively going back and changing

it i i understand in the thought was then they

would actually um because sean murphy has some

like unedited versions of black knight uh white

knight that we thought were going to be in the

trade but ended up not being um but anyways regarding

the idea of black label it kind of makes sense

trying to especially with a book like this that

exists outside of the normal dc universe it's

kind of its own thing it gives critters the freedom

to kind of do whatever they want they can go

for a more mature tone and dc's been was doing

that a lot with a lot of books that were outside

the realm of what their normal continuity was

but kind of maybe loosely connected like mr miracle

which is more so in continuity but definitely

geared towards mature readers you know they have

vertigo but it wasn't necessarily vertigo so

it's a good in between So I'm interested in seeing

where it goes. I do think, though, because DC

right now has a lot of different labels that

they're doing. I think Geoff Johns is going to

have his own label starting next off -print,

I should say, starting next year as well. They're

trying to relaunch Vertigo. They just had Young

Animal, but that's kind of no longer going on

because most of those titles didn't do very well.

But ultimately, I think as long as the books

are good, And I don't know if they're going to

now, moving forward, if they release something

like the Sago Swamp thing by Alan Moore, which

was Vertigo, are they now going to bring that

over to Black Label? Or what's going to be like,

quote unquote, Black Label? But I just don't,

I hope they didn't learn the wrong lesson from

Batman White Knight thinking. Why it was so successful

was because it was dark and more adult. And then

try to double down on that and we get some crazy

edginess that's ridiculous that we got in the

90s. So that's my concern. But obviously this

is very separate since this one existed before

Black Label was a thing. Yeah. What about you,

DJ? I'm full disclosure, I'm not... i don't know

if you would even consider this i guess i'm not

a real big elseworlds what if fan to begin with

uh there are very few i really like punisher

girls in the marvel universe i mean that's probably

it uh mainly because of uh my my my myopic view

of you know Elseworld stories. I like characters

kind of the way they are. But Stephen Amell is

going to be Barry Allen. Come on. You've got

to love that. I can't wait for that. Because

even if there's something, there's growth there,

it doesn't count because it's limited. So it's

like, I can't even like, oh, even if I'm enjoying

it, well, it's only these five issues, bye. So

I'm not really a huge elsewhere fan. I didn't

know much about this book going in. I had heard

the title and I didn't know. And I think somebody

had mentioned, oh yeah, it's like a what if situation.

So going in, I was just kind of like, okay, win

me over book, win me over an owl. Hold my thoughts

on if it won me over or not until we get into

it. Absolutely. For me, a comic, not just DC,

not just Marvel, any comic company, they need

to, in my personal opinion, market towards a

wide audience. And if that is going to mean that

they use a new imprint to show more adult stories

than what is in the rebirth or the new 52 or

the old continuity and as long as it's separate

from you know their kiddie stuff kind of a thing

sure go for it great you know for me it's like

this to me obviously is a it's not a one shot

but it's a it's a mini series that is separate

from like what um Is Tom King still writing Batman,

Dan? I don't... Sometimes they change writers,

so I'm not sure if... No, he's... Okay. He's

currently writing Batman, and he's probably set

in for at least the next 50 issues. Okay. So,

like, Tom King is currently writing Batman. He's

been writing Batman since the New 52 ended, Rebirth

started, Scott Snyder is off doing whatever Scott

Snyder is off doing. You know... The way I look

at White Knight is, and the way I look at stories

like this, is it gives another creator a chance

to do something with the character without affecting

the continuity of the main writer of the main

series of the main thing. So I think these are

cool. I actually enjoyed this story. It's one

of, if not the... One of the better, if not the

best, reversal of fortune Joker stories I've

ever seen. Because how often have we seen the

whole, hey, let's make the Joker the good guy

and Batman the bad guy kind of thing. You don't

see that a lot. Getting... Go ahead. What were

you going to say? Yeah, I guess I'm kind of the

opposite of DJ in that realm where I don't care

at all about continuity. in my in my personal

world like if they got rid of continuity all

together and just did whatever like they did

back like the civil civil right really before

you know you know fittingly stan lee was like

the person that really made universes matter

made continuity matter um but i'd be fine if

they continuity wasn't a thing um but i get why

people enjoy it because you get this it makes

it's unlike anything else you get legitimately

a 60 year long story um but i think In this,

you said that, you know, you reversal fortunes

of the idea of Batman and Joker, but I think

that's what it maybe presents itself as to start

with, but it ends up being something very different

than that by the end. Oh, absolutely, yeah. I

mean, that's just the basic, you know, quote

-unquote premise kind of thing, or what most

of the copy says, you know. Like, on the back

of the book, it says something about, you know...

What would happen if the roles were reversed

kind of thing? As I mentioned earlier, Sean Murphy,

writer and artist on this. Matt Hollingsworth

is the colorist. Todd Klein is letterer. With

Sean and Matt doing the covers. I love almost

all of the covers that they've done for this

series. I thought they were really, really cool.

Of all the things I really dug about this book...

Art's probably number one. Sean Murphy's art's

kind of like if, you know, like Greg Coppola

and Joe Mad had like a baby for some reason.

It kind of like, oh wow, that looks kind of like

old school Greg Coppola. Oh wait a minute, there's

that kind of anime kind of face there. I really

like the art. I like... I'm trying to think of

all the things I like. I'm not really a big fan

of this book. I like the use of nostalgia in

one section of the story. I won't spoil it. Let's

just say it has to deal with transportation.

I really like the stuff they did with Freeze

and Alfred. That stuff I didn't really see coming

with Freeze, but I bought it automatically. I

was like, oh! Oh, okay, that makes sense. I never,

like, I don't, Dan, you have to remind me, have

they ever dealt with that backstory with Freeze

before? Is that an original thing for this book?

I don't believe so. Like, I don't think they

ever had that, like, to my knowledge. You mean

the thing with his father? The thing with his

father, yes. That, I was like, I don't remember

that ever. I know it wasn't in the anime series,

but I was like, was it in a book that I missed?

Maybe they brought it up or something? I'm pretty

sure they have not until now. That's a cool way

to introduce the, at least connect the, we're

tap dancing around, the freeze technology, how

it developed with him. I was like, oh, that's

kind of a stretch where I was like, I could buy

it. I could understand it. When it comes to things

they do with other certain characters, I guess

we'll get into later, I couldn't buy it all the

way. Yeah, what do we think of how the books

are laid out? Not the art, not the images, not

the story, but what I'm meaning is, like, I'm

looking at cover one, and you open it up, and

it has this black and white drawing, and then

it has the quote, Given his newfound mental capacity,

I think you need to be worried. And that's a

quote from this issue that will come up later.

What do we think of that formatting for this

to make it separate from every other Batman book

out there? Well, I think that might be different

because that's not how the issues are laid out.

You don't have that opening for the first issue

when it's released by... This issue is just the

opening of the... the Batmobile traveling up

to Arkham Asylum. Um, so you don't, you don't

get that quote. I don't know if that was just

something they were using in the, in the trade

to separate it out from different installments.

Uh, but so I can't really comment on that since

it didn't really, uh, wasn't presented that same

way. Um, but I thought, you know, just looking

at the actual opening of the, the, the story,

I thought it was a good way to. establish itself

because it starts with a very familiar scene

of the Batmobile going up Arkham Asylum and you

know it's a very normal thing you see someone

a shadowy figure walk in they let him in a great

Batmobile I did like the look of the Batmobile

but then it gets changed where you walk in and

the person that's in change is not that of a

criminal or a known criminal but that of Batman

and then this slick -looking character, but you

don't necessarily... I mean, he says his name,

Mr. Napier, but I think it's a good way of just,

you know, that great leap forward in time where

it's like, okay, this is where we're heading.

Let's see how we get there. So on that way, I

thought it did a good job of just establishing

the fact that this is a different story. This

is, you know, like I mentioned, it presents itself

as, okay, well, how exactly are we getting...

to a world where Batman's in jail and the Joker

or Jack Napier is driving the Batmobile. So I

think it's a good way of just establishing intrigue

within only, you know, within a few pages. Yeah.

And I really dig this story. I'm going to say

this now, and I will say it at the end of next

week's episode as well. White Knight, to me,

is on the same level as Gates of Gotham. and

Nightwing New Order. White Knight's a little

deeper than those are, but it's not the same

storytelling, but it's the same... I get the

same feeling reading this that I got reading

those. Like, I was pulled into the book on almost

every single page and panel that I read. And

ending the first issue with the Jack Napier thing

was really, really cool. The thing, a lot of

people don't like the Joker having a name. How

do you guys feel about it? I didn't know I didn't

want the Joker to have a name until probably

the Dark Knight. When you realize he's just making

up his backstory as it goes on. It's like, oh,

that's actually what it should always be. He

should be a force of nature. It shouldn't matter.

You hear me, Joaquin Phoenix. It shouldn't matter

what his backstory is. It shouldn't. He's just

a force of nature. The polar opposite of Batman.

We don't need to know exactly what, I mean, you

leave it up to interpretation. Anybody else can,

what everybody else can fill in is probably going

to be 10 times better than what they give you.

this joaquin phoenix movie or whatever they were

digressing could be amazing but it was like well

somebody's out there probably had a completely

opposite or different take on what joker's origin

is and they're kind of like i liked it when i

thought he was a comedian that did this or i

liked it when he was a gangster that did this

so i don't really need to know his backstory

when they said the jack napier thing i'm like

oh i guess they're going 89 but i mean i don't

like him having a name at all it's like i'm showing

up Doing stuff, no reason to the madness. Yeah.

Dan? That's what madness is, no reason. I don't

have a preference, to be honest with you, because

I think it's all how you tell the story and the

context in which you execute it. Like, for example,

The Killing Joke, probably the best Batman, one

of the best Batman stories, and probably the

best Joker story. You do get a sense of origin

within that. Of course, at the time, that wasn't

a book that was quote -unquote within continuity,

but It worked, you know, because it was able

to kind of look at what would drive a man to

become the Joker. And this, I think it's important

because it's, you know, it's idea of like what

could, again, like what is the defining difference

between Batman and Joker? And ultimately, you

know, Joker's biggest joke would be. to get at

batman would not be joker to you know to remove

that relationship um so i don't necessarily have

a preference i think if you're within continuity

uh i i prefer him not having a backstory like

i like to have that three joker story coming

up which is going to be another black label book

i i personally don't i'm glad that's not within

continuity um but for an elsewhere story story

or for just you know trying to do something like

this Or even like a movie or what have you. I

don't necessarily have a preference. I don't

think he needs one. But if you're going to be

able to do something with it, which I feel like

White Knight did, I'm fine with it. For me, I

agree with you. It matters, but it doesn't matter

whether he does or whether he doesn't. I think

what Sean Murphy has done in here has basically

been. and we'll get into this further in this

episode and next week's as well. He basically

took everything that I assume he loves about

Batman and the bat mythos and threw it all into

a unique original story that makes you think

about both of these characters, hero and villain,

whichever one is in whichever role you think

he liked. See, I got out of this that he didn't

like Batman at all. That's why maybe I have my

blinders on, but when I'm reading this book,

it's almost like a F you to Batman. Because in

this entire book, Batman is an irrational psychopath.

There's no rhyme or reason to him. He doesn't

give a crap about anybody but himself throughout

like 95 % of the story. That's why I'm like,

maybe he just likes the Joker or he doesn't like...

The code of Batman? I don't know. There's a scene,

I don't want to get into, I don't know how we're

going to tap dance around the story, but where

he's, Batman is just tearing through Gotham,

not giving a crap, ignoring his sidekicks, doesn't

care. I'm like, that... That seems like Zack

Snyder -y Batman. It doesn't seem like Kevin

Conroy Batman to me, where he's just like, screw

it, I'm going to drive a car, I don't care, I'm

knocking over people. That's kind of how I got

it. But again, I have a very... tight window

with my batman so when you expand it to where

he doesn't seem to give a crap he's throwing

caution at the wind he doesn't care about the

what commissioner gordon is saying or dick is

saying or barbara's saying and he's just jumping

in without thought it doesn't make me think he

likes batman that much make me think he likes

joker a lot but not i think it means he likes

them both because batman what I got from this

story overall is that they both have an unhealthy

obsession with each other. Right. But Batman,

you know, psychopath. Have you, have you not

seen, have I not seen Batman forever? He was

driving on rooftops and Batman forever. Come

on now. Batman forever, but he wasn't putting

people in fricking harm's way. Like this, but

this Batman literally is putting people in harm's

way and is essentially pie facing Barbara Gordon.

The whole time where she's like, what are you

doing? What are you doing? He's shut up. He doesn't

say shut up, but he's like ignoring her because

she's making good points of why, which I guess

leads to her joining, doing something else. But

it's like, I don't see this Batman. I don't see

Batman as that person. I don't see Batman as

he takes chances. He causes collateral damage,

but he doesn't do it to a point where he's endangering

people. And that's kind of what I got from this,

where he's just like a. like a monster like he

didn't anybody i don't think it's that he doesn't

like batman i think it's looking at the problematic

nature of a character like batman and what that

would actually mean and i think this is a different

batman this is a batman that i think that opening

sequence of him chasing after joker the way he

is is to firmly establish that this is not the

normal batman this is a taking that idea this

is this is a different world this is a world

without superheroes is the world without superman

this is you know a world with with just batman

in his like universe really and i so yeah it

is a very different batman it's not necessarily

the same one you would get and i don't necessarily

think that's a bad idea the question is what

what do you do with it and i thought what this

did it a good job to start with, and we can see

how it ends when we talk about it next week,

is looking at even a normal Batman and looking

at, like, even the best Batman in the world,

you know, even, like, an Adam West Batman, there

are problems that Batman would cause. And I think

what this does a good job of is looking at, okay,

if Batman existed and did what he did, is he

actually, you know... providing yes there's a

selfishness to it in a way you know He's going

to cause a lot of collateral damage. He's going

to cause a lot of issues, destruction, especially

in certain parts of the city, like how Duke is

used in this, who is a character I thought was

always been useless in normal comics, but I think

this actually worked pretty well. I thought it

did a good job of just pointing out the problematic

nature. And if Bruce Wayne's major goal is always

to stop crime and to make Gotham a better place,

really that's... He'd be much more effective

at doing that as Bruce Wayne than he would be

at Batman, because as Bruce Wayne, he'd be preemptive.

He could better the education. He could really

help create a better Gotham. So just the act

of being Batman has a selfish nature to it. And

you had already said, DJ, about the Dark Knight,

like Dan just said. In this, it needs to be Bruce,

you know. pulling little sniveling weasels out

of cars and ramming his Lamborghini into motorcades

like he did in The Dark Knight. So I do agree

with that. The thing of it is, is this story

is... It's a... It focuses on the relationship

of Batman and the Joker to the point of... You

almost... You don't forget about every other

point that's going on, but there were a couple

of moments with the freeze angle of it all where

I almost got taken out of the story because I'm

like, wait, we're going to freeze now? Is this

current or is this in the past? Not that Sean

Murphy did any kind of time jumping because it's

all in the current time span. It isn't like,

oh, this happened years ago kind of a thing.

But, I mean, this is like Christian Bale Batman

on steroids. Or something. It's more Ben Affleck

Batman. I guess if Bale's Batman wasn't this...

I keep wanting to say psychopathic. It's like

no... There's no man behind this bat in this

version. He's essentially just... I keep thinking

monster, and I think it would have worked for

me if, like you're saying, this was completely

through Napier's perspective. But because it

hops around, like you're saying, to Freeze and

Gordon and to Duke and all that stuff, I kind

of lose that where it's like, I guess in this

universe, Batman is essentially the Punisher.

He's not even Batman. People have always asked

people like my sister and my friends and cousins,

what's the difference between Batman and the

Punisher other than killing? And I'm like, well,

Batman is a detective. He's not like, you know,

going around a battle van, driving through the

city and shooting up places, not giving a crap.

He actually is a tactician in terms of I have

to solve crime and stop crime, but I have to

put the people first. I mean, I'm leaning more

toward the Paul Dini animated series. That is

not this Batman. This Batman is like a force.

Essentially, there's nothing to him other than,

I have to get the Joker. I have to get the Joker.

I have to get the Joker. It's not Batman. That's

essentially his one track of thought to him.

And that's kind of where I say, well, they stripped

this Batman down completely of all of the things

that I kind of liked about Batman. Well, that's

also a recent interpretation, right? Because

Batman, the original Detective Comics, that wasn't

Batman. He was much more violent. He did kill,

and he did kind of go off on a rampage. So I

think that's where you get kind of stuck. If

it's like, well, this isn't the way I want Batman

to be, well, I guess what I thought this did

a good job of doing is establishing up front

that this isn't. that batman this is a different

story and i think the way in in the whole journey

here to me was getting to that batman and like

how do you was was allowing giving that character

giving batman room to breathe to actually develop

into something rather than just being the same

thing Which is why I tend to not, I'm not usually

a huge Batman fan, is because his character is

often very stagnant. And I think that leads to

kind of repetitive storytelling. What's why I

kind of liked about this was like, okay, well,

let's play with the formula a little bit here

and kind of make him much more of a dick than

he normally is. I guess you could say very similar

to a Zack Snyder type of character. But then,

I don't want to jump ahead to what happens next

week, but I thought it was trying to come full

circle with it. That was at least my interpretation.

Yeah, it is trying to come full circle with it.

And the thing of it is, and you guys mentioned

earlier about all the collateral damage that

he causes and that he shouldn't be doing that.

Well, you know... neither should superman and

man of steel this is not batman man of steel

thank you very much no no no it's not this is

not henry cavill batman thank you interpretation

of the hero yeah yeah exactly i would actually

say he's worse than because at least in man of

steel it's like out of his control this is batman

making conscious choices of doing wrong knows

exactly what he's doing and people are literally

telling him batman you're doing horrible things

and he's like I don't care. He doesn't say I

don't care, but his face is, I don't care. Yeah,

like Henry Cavill, at least in Man of Steel,

you could argue he's fighting a little or another

god. He can't control that. These are choices

that Batman doesn't necessarily have to make.

He doesn't have to speed down and almost run

over old people. Almost. Yeah, I mean, he's actively

making bad choices in this, and I think that

opens up... The argument could be maybe Sean

Murphy is trying to make it a little bit easier

for him to then be able to flip over. Because

I think that's what this is trying to think,

right? As we're seeing Batman like this and going

to the opening, we see that image of Batman in

jail to push the idea, to lead us to believe,

all right, well, this is a Batman that's going

to go over the edge. This is him on his way to

become someone. When I read the first issue,

that's where that's where I thought it was going

was like, OK, well, this is this is going to

be a Batman that eventually becomes a villain

here. And we're, you know, for whatever reason,

Jack Neighbor becomes the hero. But then it doesn't

necessarily go and go in that direction. So I

don't know if that was a purpose, purpose, swerve

or what exactly. But, yeah, sorry. No, I thought

I was gonna be maybe going I thought I was gonna

do remember that Lex Luthor book that came out

a while back and it was like Mainly through his

perspective and like through his perspective

Superman is like this monster He's just always

has the red eyes and I was like, okay I can buy

that because we're looking at it through Luthor

how luther see he's the hero of his own story

and that's where i thought they were going where

joker is the hero in his of his own story in

this but it's not that it's essentially just

in this story joker is the good guy and batman

is the bad guy yeah and then we kind of like

they're going with that concept and not to jump

ahead but near the end they kind of like don't

go all the way with it i guess they kind of like

i don't know come a little bit short because

i i think it would have worked better for me

if they just went would have been full bore okay

we're in the mind of the joker all right this

is the joker's story in this story batman to

him is this creature who doesn't give a crap

he's entertaining to him the joker but he he

does the same horrible things he does that batman

doesn't realize that Joker understand or see

something in Batman and Batman doesn't see himself

that he's also causing all this damage That's

what I thought I was gonna go and the kind of

this doesn't do that And I think that's where

I was like, oh, this is just an interpretation

of Batman where Batman's a dick Okay, I guess

I have to take this And I think well, I think

too part of it was Joker or you know thinking

of what would be like how could he actually defeat

Batman like what besides just like killing people?

how could he actually defeat Batman? And one

of the ways to do that would be better than Batman,

would become who he is. They messed that up too,

though. They messed it up. Okay, you're saying

be better than what he is, and I thought they

were going to do that because the one thing I've

always been constant is Joker's as smart as Batman.

He's just insane, essentially, right? And I thought

they were going to do that, where Joker is...

He's going to use his wits and his guile and

his cunning to beat Batman and almost have the

city turn against him. But then they do this

thing which literally made me scream bullshit

in my room when I was reading it. I won't spoil

it, but he doesn't use cunning and guile to beat

Batman. He uses brute force. I'm like, bullshit.

No. If you're going to go the way where Joker

beats Batman, have Joker beat Batman in the wit

way. Batman can't do shit about that. What is...

I keep going to Dark Knight. Where Ledger goes,

all your strength, all your... You can't do shit

about this. You can't... I beat you. You can

punch me all you want. Doesn't matter. I win.

That's how Joker beats Batman. Not, I'm going

to whoop your ass. That's the part where I was

like, what? Certain things in this book kind

of made me go, oh, you look like you're going

one way and you went the other way. It's not

subverting my expectations. It's almost like

you half -stepped. You froze and you changed

your... course for some reason yeah i i don't

i i don't but what i was going to say is it's

not that i was doing that and i i think he was

using his words he wasn't necessarily using his

words he was using the public against him like

that was you know He was basically becoming that

politician, becoming that hope that Batman never

was. It wasn't necessarily designed at first

to be that physical. It was part of that. It

was utilizing Clayface to have all the control

of the different villains and kind of doing what

he couldn't do and then turning them against

him within this. So it wasn't necessarily he

was trying to punch his way out of it per se,

but utilizing, you know, the very city against

him that he thought he was saving i dug that

that part was cool but then near the end that's

skipping ahead a little bit he does punch his

way out of it which i didn't want him to do i

want him to completely not go physical with batman

that's not how you beat batman you beat batman

by out thinking batman yes but this yes however

this is a batman joker story you cannot have

a batman joker story without the two of them

having a knockdown drag out physical fight at

least one time sure but the way he does it is

not like the way the the one the story was setting

up and two their dynamic has ever been there's

no god bane should the fight should have been

if there was a bane batman fight i could see

that happening But there's no effing way I've

ever seen in any interpretation the way this

fight ends. Never. I don't know if this is again,

oh, it's something new, but sometimes you do

something new, Last Jedi, and it's like, what?

What are you doing? What was that? You keep your

Last Jedi out of this Batman podcast. You keep

your podcast out of my Last Jedi. So... For those

of you wondering about the story, as we get through

issue two of the series, the Joker is cured.

He's taking these pills and supposedly they cure

him. He becomes Jack Napier. As Dan already said,

he goes the political route and tries to fight

Batman through, you know, all of that. I love

the fact there's two Harleys, like, quote -unquote

fake Harley and real Harley, and then fake Harley

turns into... Neo joke. Well, because there was,

again, this is why I say Sean Murphy really loves

Batman in general, not the character specifically,

but the Batman franchise, is because he's got

all this stuff in here that I can draw allusions

to. The fake Harley, real Harley thing, that

happened in one episode of Batman the Animated

Series when, I think it was Mad Love, where he

hit her. and she just left, and he went to replace

her, and he got this dumber than a box of rocks

version of her kind of a thing. So that's what

I see with the two Harleys thing here, and I

thought that was really cool. I don't know if

that's what he was going for. To me, what I took

that as was looking at kind of Harley Quinn,

that character, and kind of what she was first.

as, like, what she was established as, kind of

this strong -willed character, and, you know,

her, how she kind of fell in love with the Jack

Meepier part of, or, you know, the more humanistic

part of a Joker, and then what she kind of morphed

into within the last, you know, five, six years,

kind of just a one -note, very generic kind of,

you know, mini -Deadpool type of character. Yeah.

You're right. I took it as him basically looking

at kind of, you know, basically what Harley was

and then what she devolved into and then I was

actually kind of surprised that I thought that

was going to be the last we saw of that character

but knowing that she eventually becomes Neo -Joker

and where that leads to. Yeah. The story within

the first three and four issues of the eight

issues I love the complexity of it. I love all

of the stuff with it, I, you know, again, there's

a, um, there's a scene in, in episode, not episode,

issue two here, where, again, when I say that

I feel that Sean loves the Batman franchise,

and I make the, my own allusion to BTAS and the

fake Harley, yeah, you're completely right, Dan,

it is two different sides of her personality.

you know, kind of a thing, but my point in saying

that is that I see things in this that he's alluding

to, and we get to a scene with Napier and the

other villains, and I don't care what anyone

says, as soon as you hear Croc say, it was a

big rock, anyone that's seen Batman the Animated

Series almost got him, will know that that's

a reference to That episode from Batman the Animated

Series. One of the best episodes ever. Absolutely.

And I love the whole villain thing. I love the

thing with... There aren't many, you know, you

were saying earlier about how there aren't many

Batman stories that can be unique and interesting

because Batman's done everything over the last

80 years. To be clear for that, I'm saying that

sometimes he can become a stagnant character

where he's the least interesting thing. If you

look at a lot of Batman stories, it often is

him as a character. It's him as a character.

It's always like he stays stagnant and it's always

the same type of story. Even in the best... I

love Scott Snyder's run of Batman, but he's always

a second -tier character, which is what made

Tom King's run really fascinating, is that Batman's

actually been the main character of his own book.

And that's what I liked about it. This is why

I like interpretations of this, is being able

to try to... do something different and develop

them and kind of look at kind of the the cracks

of of the psyche of someone that would have to

do this like what would you know what would someone

be like even if you go back to um you know dark

knight returns i mean which is kind of a cliche

to do anytime anytime you talk about a batman

book but that that was redefining what batman

in some ways i mean it's not like he Maybe Frank

Reilly gets a little bit too much credit of redefining

Batman, but certainly was very different than

the interpretations around that time period.

And I think this is, you know, in that same spirit

of saying, OK, well, let's create an offshoot

and do something that is, you know, just tell

a story. And I think, you know, taking bits and

pieces, there's like you, I think there are clearly

even Sean Murphy has said he's taken. From everything,

from Tim Burtonverse, from the animated series,

and you see that eventually by the end of this

with all the Batmobiles. So I think he's taking

bits and pieces of everything to create his own

Murphyverse, if you want to call it that. The

thing I was going to point out was that with

certain of Batman's villains, just like with

Spider -Man and Superman and whatever, I've seen

so many different tries with certain characters

that it's very rare that I get shocked in what

they do with it. And what I mean by this is,

as issue two comes to a close, we have Clayface.

And Clayface is not long for this world. He's

going to be scattered. scattered, smothered,

and covered for breakfast tomorrow or something,

because that was a twist I did not see coming.

I understand why he did it, because the Hatter

helmet, the mind control thing, could not work

on every single army person, like turning the

super criminals into an army. The only way you

can do it is... Kill Clayface and feed him to

everybody. Oh, my God. That part just showed

to me how horrific it must be to be Clayface.

All the time you're like, oh, Clayface, that's

cool. But you're like, oh, this is horrific.

Because to be able to, I don't say survive that,

but just to be, you know, maybe conscious when

all this is happening must be the most horrific

thing of all time. So through issue three, issue

three, each of these issues has a really shocking

moment for me. And much like in Nightwing New

Order, when some stupid cop killed, I don't want

to say stupid cop, some stupid person on the

Nightwing force or whatever it was, killed Alfred.

Anytime Alfred Pennyworth dies, I'm like, oh,

hell no, they didn't just do that. But I love

what they did here with the freeze story and

they call back to the McGregor syndrome as much

as everyone hates Batman and Robin jazz hands.

We hate that, that movie, but like they, they

call back to that. They have Alfred's funeral

kind of thing. And this is Bruce has lost his

parents. Obviously that's, that's still a thing

in, in this quote unquote Murphy versus Dan said.

But losing Alfred, Alfred was the last part of

Bruce's soul. That's why, I mean, yeah, earlier

Bruce kind of didn't care, but, like, losing

the only father he's really known since his parents

died, that's going to drive a guy over the edge.

Maybe this should have happened first. Maybe

they should have had the Alfred death scene.

the beginning, which would lead to Batman being

a dick. Again, I liked everything they did with

the Alfred stuff. I didn't even think about the

McGregor syndrome. I was like, oh yeah, that

was referenced in the greatest Batman movie of

all time, Batman and Robin. I joke. It's not

the greatest. I was joking. There's a credit

card in there. No, it's a horrible film. I will

say one thing that's kind of weird with this

series is, you know, knowing that Murphy's both,

you know, drawing and writing it, his dialogue

is much more verbose than you would expect. Because

typically when you have a writer and artist doing

a book, you know, they tend to let the art speak

for itself almost to a default at times. But

this is a relatively wordy book, especially with

the Napier dialogue. I mean, I know that's kind

of the point because that's the weapon he's using.

It does get a little overbearing at times. Like

I think he could probably, you know, there's...

times where he uses ten words when he maybe could

have used five. But I just found it kind of interesting

that knowing that he is the artist here, it's

very rare to see that. It's usually the opposite,

where you get very little dialogue, because it's

like they don't want it to cover over the page

and cover over the art. But he seems... Which,

again, could be because he's more of an artist.

something the scripting the die and sometimes

that's the hardest part for an artist turning

into an writer or writing for more so than you

know their their drawing you know because movies

won't work with some great people like reminder

and stuff like that so i think that's like where

On a scripting perspective, that's where it gets

bogged down a little bit, especially the lettering

and the dialogue boxes. You can kind of overtake

the page and unfortunately cover the art to an

unnecessary extent. It's not always there, but

it happens especially within, like you mentioned,

the Napier dialogue or those different new sequences.

Again, that very much harkened back to something

like Dark Knight. But I just found that kind

of intriguing that that was something that...

was happening here so be interested in seeing

how that goes with because the next series that

comes after this yeah i i think writer artists

artist writers whatever you want to call them

writer artists um because i don't want to say

they have full control but they almost do over

the creative part of it i think they work in

all of the dialogue to where it should be without

taking away from the actual art. Like, again,

I've praised this since the pullback started,

since I started doing digital comics. Comixology's

guided view on issue three where Harley's like,

I'm really proud of you, Puddin'. Really? You

know, take me out tonight. And, you know, we

cut to a bigger scene. where you know duke says

take her out you clown or someone else will and

we cut to them you know cutting a rug it shows

a panel of basically her with her arm around

the back of his neck and this hot ass you know

red dress kind of like i just think that The

writing and where the letters are placed and

the way the story is done, especially with the

way that I read it in the guided view, I think

it actually works for writer -artists. I think

sometimes when you have a writer and an artist,

sometimes signals may get crossed, sometimes

they won't. Who knows? But I think Sean's stuff

actually does work for... him doing both sides

of it. Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't. I think

at times his scripting, his dialogue can get

overbearing. Especially when it gets... I think

one thing he struggles with is providing context

or backstory for things. And that's where I think

it's a little bit overbearing. I'm not saying

it's bad, per se, but it's just... Um, there

are, there are times where there are words on

the page that don't necessarily need to be there

because you can just let the art speak for itself.

Um, and I think where that becomes a little bit

more challenging is where there's a little bit

more heavy lifting, um, because you have those

in Napier speeches where he's kind of, you know,

going on these different like diatribes about

what, what's wrong with, um, what's, what's wrong

with, uh, Batman. Uh, they're not, it's, it's

not always there, but there are times where it's

like, whoa, that's a. That's a page full of a

lot of, that's like almost, if I didn't know

better, I'd be thinking I'm reading a Brian Michael

Bendis book with all the dialogue. I don't necessarily

think dialogue's a bad thing. I just don't think

it's his strength as a writer. So, or as a creator.

So when, when, uh, it's the one thing like, you

know, bringing in. If he was working with another

artist, if he was working with, if he just had

writing duties, you think like half of this is

cut down? I think if he was working with someone

like Remender, he would probably be able to tighten

up a little bit. It's not necessarily bad. I

think it's just that you're doing a lot, so it's

challenging, but it's still really well done.

I'm not saying it's not well done, but I'm just

the one area where I think if you're looking

for improvement or where... You know, it's where

it doesn't match up to like, you know, the art

to me is like a 10 out of 10. That's where it's

not to that level, which is, you know, that's

it's to be said, because it's a difference between

a person who writes for a living, a person who

does art for a living. Like, I think a person

who does that remarkably well is someone like

Jeff Lemire, who's kind of the opposite, where

he has he's much more minimal, minimalist. And

that's kind of what I expected. And again, that's

what may just be my. subjective point of view

because when you typically go into a book and

it's an artist writing it like i mentioned it

it's usually your it's usually like oh they just

decided not to put any words on this page over

and over again but that's not the case here so

that's what it was more of a a shock because

of it more than than a poor execution choice

yeah and the way they end issue four Again, going

to the story of the, you know, Neo Joker, the

the the alternate Harley, you know, you know,

telling kind of her story to Mad Hatter and all

of this. And then they they they see this archival

footage of the the freeze and the Waynes and.

The Nazi stuff. Wow. Yeah, exactly. Like. That's

a way to end, like, oh, wow. You know, I mean,

who'd ever thought, you know, Nazi stuff would

be in a Batman book? You know, I mean, it's not

like, you know, you know, Indiana Jones and,

you know, Junior can come in on, you know, a

motorcycle with a buggy. But I completely bought,

like, when they explain Freezes Baxter, I'm like,

huh. Yep, that makes a lot of sense, especially

with the rapid aging thing. I was like, oh, yeah,

why wouldn't he be? I mean, I guess Freeze's

backstory has been limited. to me as much so

when they it's it's ripe to expand the pounder

you know do whatever you want with which i never

thought i never saw the nazi thing coming in

when i read i was like oh yeah that that's that

makes sense that would make a lot of sense and

The arc he kind of goes through, though, he's

kind of like the sea character of this whole

story. I dug Freeze a lot. Every time Freeze

shows up, I know you said it took you out of

the book a little bit, maybe because I'm a huge

Freeze fan, but I want to know more. Tell me

more about that. It wasn't that it took me, it

wasn't the fact that he was there that took me

out of the book. What takes me out of the book

is, like, ending the scene with Joker and Harley,

like going home, like where, like where it has

their dialogue on their page. And then it starts

freezes page and it has, you know, the finish

of what their dialogue is. It's more so like

the pacing, not pacing, but the, the way it's

displayed, the way that it's formatted, that

wasn't the, no freeze is a much a part of this

story as any of the other characters in it. And

it's absolutely awesome. I think it's great.

And if I had been reading this single issue,

oh man, I wouldn't be able to deal. I'm glad

I waited for the trade because I would not be

able to just deal on a monthly basis or however...

I think this was a monthly series for obviously

the eight issues, but I don't know. As we...

get to the end of the fourth issue. DJ, how are

you feeling about the story at this quote -unquote

halfway point? At this point, I like where it's

going. As it's going. I think that they could

have done something a little bit more... What's

the word? I don't say better with Batman. The

way they treated Batman kind of rubbed me the

wrong way a little bit. So that's kind of my

only hint. But again, when it comes to the artistic

style of this book, I mean, this book is great.

I was on Comic Con Series with Dan before watching

Gotham Central, and I love that gritty style.

And I think there's a little bit of that here.

The way that Murphy kind of uses certain characters,

and I know it's an Elseworlds story, it was just

hard for me to wrap my brain around the treatment

of certain characters. Barbara Gordon, Batman,

stuff like that. I like the intent. I like the

intent. Dan, what about you? Yeah, I really kind

of enjoy this. experiment that he you know that

he's doing right like um i i like that i i thought

it was going to be a simple like okay batman

turns evil and then joker's good and and go from

there um but i like that it ended ended being

more of kind of a deconstruction of the mythos

of batman's world um along with that and you

know and pointing out i putting out some of the

legitimate logical issues with a character like

Batman and what that would mean, and then having

someone like Joker take a different approach.

And there's a lot here going on, perhaps too

much at times, with sometimes maybe a character

like Neo Joker, her development seems a little

bit weird, a little bit more fast -paced than

some of the others. As G .J. pointed out, it

is a gorgeous book. morphe has a very gothic

aesthetic that you know it doesn't necessarily

feel like if you go to like the timber art movie

it has a similar feeling but it's a little bit

more cartoonish uh where this it it has that

more um it has that feel um you know it's funny

they mention anime because he's done sean morphe's

done something like tokyo ghost which is very

much in that realm so uh i think it kind of all

puts it's all put together pretty well um and

i kind of just like the no holds part of it in

a way. And I, and do also really like the way

he draws Batman. Um, just, he looks just like

a hulking figure, but, um, uh, not to the point

where it's like actually the Hulk. Um, but I

don't know. I just, I just, I enjoy this world

that he's creating and, uh, like this little

universe that's like picking and choosing different

things that wants to use. So. Yep. Absolutely.

All right. Well, I don't know what's going on,

folks, but I'm starting to get a cough in the

back of my throat. I'm coughing, too. Oh, no.

It's Joker gas. A cagastrophe? Smoke them if

you got them? A plume of purple puffs puts down

our podcast pals? A situation that may be more

of a gas than we expected? Will the tenacious

trio catch their breath? Or will they be too

choked up to continue? Find out next time on

Geekcast Radio's Pull Bag. Same bad time, same

bad podcast channel. You've just heard the latest

episode of The Pull Bag. the GCRN's first comic

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until next time, make your great escape into

comics and unleash the geek in you. We're making

a sketch based on if that was real. Coming out

of Megatron's idea, Megatron was like, yeah,

we should do something on Space Force if it was

a real thing. I was like, well, I'm just going

to make it based on Delta Force with Chuck Norris,

so let's do that. Yeah, I see Mad About Trump

on Comixology for $9 but for $10. I see Trump's

Titans, which is a series. And I see the Trump

Titans Space Force. The Judas contract will be

really interesting in Trump Titans. Yeah. I have,

yeah, the Trump Titans. Let's see, the first

one is Trump Titans versus diversity number one.

And then, like Dan said, Trump Titans Space Force

number one under the Trump Titans series logo.

I've got the IDW book that they put out by Shannon

Wheeler, Shit My President Says, and I want to

do that on the podcast eventually just because

it's illustrations done by Shannon Wheeler from

the point of Donald Trump starting his Twitter

up until just after he won the election or after

he gets sworn in. And I've been wanting to do

it, and I just haven't had the time to do any

of this stuff.