Online Toy Fandoms and Community Culture

Starscream here, and I am the lord and master

of the GeekCast radio network. Don't tell Megatron.

Hey, Bub, I keep telling ya. Don't call me Wobby!

Snicked. Hello and welcome to a special ToyCast.

This is all about exploring the nature and the

beast that is online fandom communities. I am,

of course, TFG1Mike, and joining me is Dave from

Dave and the Wall. Hello, sir. Hello, how are

you, Mike? Pretty good, pretty good. Both of

you were supposed to be here, but Jason took

it as, oh, you just want Dave, blah, blah, blah,

blah. Yeah, I think there was a little confusion

about that. Yeah. And also, I'm not sure how

much I'm allowed to say, but Jason has been asked

not to speak on this subject anymore, so. Oh,

really? Dun, dun, dun. Good lord. Yeah. Well,

there's apparently shenanigans going on behind

the scenes. Oh, god. if they were up to me i

would do as much as possible to screw them up

but don't got uh... we can talk about that off

there's not yet about that off there but i don't

know well the whole point of this special episode

toy cast is that uh... You're all's most recent.

It was either the most recent episode of the

episode before that was either episode 32 or

episode 33 Yeah saying before the show. I mean

we've been talking about this for truth I mean

it feels like we've been talking about it since

comic con right exactly that's that's sort of

when it really started to raise its It's something

that I've been talking about since pop culture

network days Yeah, you know like we're specifically

going to be talking about fandoms, and I think

we're gonna in a lot of particular heavy barrage

at a certain toy line fandom. Well, no, not,

you know, it's more so, it has nothing to do

with really the toy line specifically. It has

to do with the franchise, honestly, is what it

has to do with it. It's the way that I'm approaching

it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was one thing

that we said this last show or a recent show

was that the toys themselves are, you know, neutral.

I mean, even toy lines that I don't particularly

like, you know, that you usually produce one

or two cool toys. So that's not the issue. It's

the people who sort of gravitate towards, you

know, this is the thing, like I said, this is

something I've actually been working on and been

threatening to reveal for like weeks now. It's

this master thesis about how the toy lines of

the 80s had certain themes and messages in them.

and that certain people gravitated towards certain

lines and certain franchises that had certain

messages. And what was interesting to me, as

I really, because I mean, you know, I was a communications

major in grad school and I'm, so I've done this

stuff before, like looking at the messages and

the meaning and it was really kind of fascinating

that if you look at like the four big properties

of the 80s, Star Wars, G .I. Joe, Transformers,

and He -Man, Like three of them are all about

working together for a common goal which is usually

to overthrow an unelected tyrant and One has

the catchphrase. I have the power Which is spoken

by the crown prince of an unelected tyrant So

it's it's sort of interesting to me that you

know Star Wars is a group of rebels unite to

challenge a tyrannical empire G .I. Joe is a

daring, highly trained special mission force

whose mission is to protect human freedom. What's

Optimus Prime's tech spec quote? Freedom is the

right of all sentient beings. All sentient beings.

Yeah. What's Megatron's quote? Peace through

tyranny. Yeah. And he mans his eye of the power.

And even the name of the franchise, it's Masters

of the Universe. Like the word master implies

slave. It implies dominion. So it's so you can

see that there are three things that talk about

cooperation and teamwork Yes, and one that talks

about me me me power power power. Yes that certain

people were probably attracted to one And a person

was attracted to the others. Yeah, here's the

thing With being you know in the age of the internet

and all that stuff and how the internet has grown

since Windows 95 or 98 or whatever the hell We

have forums, we have message boards, we have

this, we have that. And for me personally, two

of the biggest ones is tfw2005 .com and heman

.org. TFW2005, I am a member over there. I do

not post over there. I'm not a part of that community.

I joined up because friends, I had met friends

through there. When I first started my g1 review

podcast I posted a thread over there and like

a general transformers to skill like it was I

swear to God it was General transformers general

discussion it was because they didn't have something

that said oh, here's here's a self promotion

Section that you know if you want to promote

yourself you can they didn't have that so I was

like okay Well, this is technically just general

transformer stuff. I posted the thread no one

ever had a problem with it We get to the very

next podcast series or The very next podcast

in the series that we did was Beast Unleashed,

which is all about Beast Wars and Beast Machines.

I go back to that same section, General Transformers

Discussion, and I post the Beast Unleashed podcast

coming soon threat. All of a sudden I get this

message of a cease and desist by some unknown

forum, mod, whatever. That's the biggest problem

with TFW2005 .com is they have a thousand super

mods over the i mean they have super mods out

the ass and basically told me you're not allowed

to promote anything on here that it isn't related

to the actual website and i'm thinking hold the

fucking phone you're telling me a community of

transformers fans do not want to know about the

very first and in -depth Review show on beast

wars and beast machines the whole point of that

podcast whole point of any of our review shows

is to take a cartoon and review it episode by

episode and You're telling me that You're One

of if not the largest transformer site on the

internet does not your your Your former members

don't want to know about this new podcast dedicated

to the beast era Which there are a lot of Beast

Wars fans out there that grew up in the 90s You

know, myself, I grew up in the 80s and I came

to love Beast Wars and Beast Machines after the

fact. I've told this part of my story before.

When I was growing up and I saw Beast Wars...

uh... eight didn't know what the hell it was

and when i first saw a reboot i thought a reboot

was the new transformers cartoon a while while

yeah i know i know i i've since never catch on

that they were transforming or as yes yes there

may be the same company though so they have some

right right exactly it just appalled me that

this This supermod said that, I don't know, cyber

sound wave or sound wave something. I don't remember

what the dude's name is over there on TFW. Basically

said, I need to cease and desist and not, you

know, this thread has been deleted. You cannot

do this. And I'm like, seriously? People don't

want to know about this stuff? You know that

I mean it has nothing to do with you know me

promoting myself as a podcasters to do it Oh,

hey I'm doing this new podcast about this part

of the transformers fandom that a lot of people

might be interested in and yet You're not allowing

yet yet. You allow me to do that You know you

allow the g1 podcast thread to happen, but you

don't allow this one to happen What the hell

and ever since then I I only use TFW 2005 for

news I do not go over to their forums The Transformers

fandom and I think this is what one of the reasons

why I wanted to do this episode was because I

think you had said that you couldn't in the episode

of David Dwell you had said that you couldn't

speak about the Transformers fandom. I can. Over

there on TFW it's G1 section. Beast Wars and

or Beast Machines or you know have them separated

animated and then prime and then whatever else

and there are some people that like everything

some people that hate everything some people

whatever. It's all segregated. The Transformers

fandom on that website, to me personally, I'm

not saying anything about any one specific person,

but just the way that it presents itself is people

attack you over an opinion. Yeah. And it's like,

really? Am I not? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Are people

not allowed to have opinions? And yes, I know.

No, no, no. You're allowed to have an opinion.

You're allowed to have their opinion. Yeah, there

you go. I know I'm a very opinionated person

and I shun stuff and I back away from stuff and

there's stuff that I truly outright hate, but

I'm not going around the internet spewing hate

at this stuff. I am not a fan of Harry Potter

at all. I could care less about that franchise,

but at the same time, I'm not sitting here on

Twitter or Facebook or whatever online board

saying, oh my fucking God, dumbass wizard boy.

learns to save the world but you you know i'm

not spewing hatred for that series it if i don't

like it i don't i'd just say okay i tried it

i don't like it i move on yeah i would uh...

with the order mark my issue with him and is

is that's how i was that's how i wanted to be

site my thing is i have a life like i have things

to do so i don't waste time on things i don't

care about it don't like i just sort of move

on and i think the the problem was i was in a

situation where i was surrounded by people and

partly it was it was also as i think is posted

on our podcast it became the at lines of people

were talking about it just general and part of

it is also that mattel actually gives out information

as opposed to hasbro but it became something

that no one we're allowed to cuss right yes okay

it became something that nobody around me would

shut the fuck up about and i just got sick of

it and it just it was a thing that would not

let me ignore it you know It's like so and and

to this day. I mean I have people and I will

send them texting Please stop talking about the

fucking he mans. I don't care and And then the

next thing is well, you know so -and -so's doing

in August and you're like I don't care Yes, yes.

Well my problem is with the org is because we

are Over here at GCN. We're gonna be starting

up in October We're going to be starting up the

Powers of Grayskull series, which is a four podcast

series reviewing every cartoon episode of Masters,

80s, She -Ra, That New Adventures Crap, and then

Masters 2002. Myself and Optimus Solo, we're

going to be reviewing every episode of each four

of those cartoons. And I went over to He -Man

.org to sign up. Oh. No, hold on, hold on, hold

on. OK. I went over to sign up because I'm thinking,

OK. And this was before I actually had my whole

issue with Mattel. This was before all that.

This is like middle of. This is before I attempted

to buy a subscription last year. So I went over

there thinking, OK, I'm going to sign up. I'm

going to go on here and share with people why

I like the franchise, and then go into, hey,

I'm starting this podcast series, blah, blah,

blah. Go to sign up, enter in all the information.

We're sorry. We do not allow email addresses

from Gmail. And I'm thinking, are you fucking

kidding me? Seriously, you don't allow it. You

don't allow a user to have a Gmail address. Fuck.

Yes. I swear to God, dude. Wow. I went in, I

put in TFU and Mike at gmail .com, entered in

all the other information, created a password.

It said we cannot create your account because

we do not accept email accounts from Gmail. And

I'm thinking seriously, I can understand Yahoo.

Hotmail, AOL, all that crap, but Gmail, really?

So that's my problem with the org, is that I've

never been a part of the community, so I can't

speak to the effects of whatever drama goes on

over at the org. My problem with it is I can

never fucking join! I don't, from what I understand,

I'm not sure you missed much, because the impression

I get, and this was like one of the things I

kind of want to start out with, you know, why

I might not be the perfect person for this podcast

is because like it seems like every year now

there's a word that I want to excise from my

vocabulary. And the word for 2012 is community.

Yes, I am so and it's not just online. I mean,

my girlfriend in Chicago is members of various

communities up there and they're all as bad.

as the online toy communities, but there's this

recurring theme of these communities become about

themselves and not about the people in them,

and you get the old school, and you get the cliques,

and you get the politics, and someone new comes

along and they're treated like garbage because

they haven't been there since whatever. It's

like, does high school never end, really? Like,

apparently people were, like, not in the popular

clique in high school, so they formed these little

toy websites, and now they're the cheerleaders

in their mind. And they'll poop on the new kids.

It's like, oh, come on. Get a grip. And that's

one of the reasons that we've been talking about

it since Comic -Con, is because we had one of

our regular listeners over at Toy World Order

came in fifth in the Create a Character contest.

and the good people at the org tore into him

like he was meat in shark -infested water and

then one of them went snooping around and figured

out that he had broken some rule and got him

disqualified. So anyway, like, I mean, and they

really got vicious and apparently it's gotten

to the point there had been some racial, because

he's Hispanic, there had been some racial epithets

thrown at him. And it's just utterly appalling

and disgusting that all this guy did was he loved

he man as much as everybody else, but because

he's not an org regular, he wasn't allowed to

enter the contest, and he's a very talented artist.

And he's actually gotten to the point, I mean,

what really upset me, what really set me off,

is he got to the point where he was like, I should

never have put pencil to paper, it was wrong

of me to enter, it was wrong of me to draw anything.

It's like, no, wrong. These guys do not fucking

own He -Man. You know, they may think they do,

they may act like they do, but you had every

right to enter that contest, no matter what they

said. And it's just, it's just like, I really,

it's, I mean, it's mind blowing to me. It's like,

aren't we all supposed to be on this ride together?

Isn't that the whole point of a community is

we're supposed to be moving in the same direction,

not, you know, we've got our little fiefdom and

we're better than you, na, na, na, na, na. God,

I mean, it's mind blowing. It is very mind -blowing

and it's like, you know, I can, you know, express

an opinion about the Unicron trilogy, which most

of the Transformers fans that I interact with

don't like it, and I don't like it either, but

I'm sure there are some people out there that

love that Unicron trilogy. I can say, oh, G1

is better than Beast Wars. Now, I'm not saying

that. i'm not saying that because i don't want

i don't want steve megatron to be attacking me

and he and he and he knows but um but the thing

of it is is like all this is exactly why i it's

nothing against any like there's nothing against

any people that i know that are friends of mine

that have started up their own website and have

their own forums i single -handedly refuse to

join any forums or participate on any forums

at all for the majority unless I have a section

on there like over at PCN because I'm doing the

Power Rangers thing with Scotty I have The Power

Rangers podcast right over there. That's pretty

much the only thing that I go over there for

on their forums It's like I I don't interact

with any of those people on a daily basis and

I don't have the time to sit here and reply to

Forum messages or forum threads and this anything.

I just I don't I Understand forums are a great

way to express your opinion. I don't have the

time. Yeah I am yeah, and and defaults like that

too at toy world order the guys of a toy world

order are like that and the problem is that I

I do have someone of the time, but I made the

mistake at PCN one time Because I had like mod

powers Someone you were talking about, you know

people attacking people for having an opinion

There was a member of the forum there who it

was the stupidest Argument I've ever heard in

my life. I mean one of them. It was like this

guy really hated bayformers Really deeply and

I'm not exaggerating apparently psychotically

hated Bayformers and You know someone else was

talking about buying some new transformer because

this is I think when uh It might have been it

was in between the last two movies I think but

just some Bayformer that was you know currently

out for per purchase and the guy said you know

I want to get this well this guy's theory Was

that you must never buy a Bayformer you must

never buy any transformer that does not look

like a vintage transformer, because otherwise,

how are we ever going to force Hasbro to produce

toys exactly like they produced in the 1980s?

They're never gonna do that. And he, but he like

attacked and attacked and like just went both

barrels and got personal and was throwing up

shit from his own history and just went psycho

on this guy and I stepped in. Yeah. It was a

mistake. And you know, because, partly because,

you know, like I became the bad guy. and partly

because the the guys at PCN didn't back me up

but like you know I sort of got in the middle

of the fight and sort of got him finally because

because in the private messages I kept going

let it go oh I'm gonna let it go blah blah blah

blah blah and then he'd do one more thing and

you go let it go and I wasn't a lot I didn't

realize you know I didn't have the power to ban

this guy so I was really kind of a paper tiger

and so at our new forums at toy world order I

I really minimally interact with stuff and I've

made it very clear that I will not play foreign

police because you know it's just it's no not

worth the headache it's not worth the drama I

I had a very dear friend from college who was

a huge fan of the last airbender and she ran

she and her husband ran a big website for the

for this is back before Cora this bag for the

movie ruined everything but uh... uh... you know

and of course they had all kinds of drama and

sometimes like even legal issues came up because

you know people make threats people do this and

and she was like it's just a nightmare you know

i mean it's great because you know these wonderful

people and you make all these incredible friendships

and but at the same time you know you you get

people come in and cause trouble and there's

there's headaches and there's problems so i mean

it's it's a double -edged sword and i think it

especially if you're on the side of actually

running the site it's almost more trouble than

it's worth and you know you know coming in on

something that say has been going on for uh...

i found a podcast uh... they reviewed a hundred

episodes it's called world's finest podcast uh...

mike and james review every single episode of

every dcau cartoon ever including teen titans

uh... including the gotham girl shorts the low

bush like everything they did a hundred episodes

they reviewed every episode and i found their

forums uh... i think two thousand seven two thousand

eight and i I was kind of, you know, I was kind

of a, I wasn't like, I didn't have any popularity

over there. I didn't like, but like we all got

along. We all discussed stuff. We all had, you

know, good, good lolly gag and time, but I wasn't

like in with, oh, the original crowd that came

over in 2004 when that site, you know, first

got started. I think that's the thing is like

some of these forums and stuff or some of these,

you know, big name fandom things, unless you're

in on the ground level, you're fucked. Like I

said, the old guard, unless you're part of the

old guard. you're nothing, you're meat. Yeah.

And it's like, you know, that's also, but it's

like, why can't, yes, everyone can have an opinion,

but why can't everyone respect everyone's opinion?

Like, you know. Exactly. You know, say, not that

I think this, but say that I say that. Real American

hero is the devil which I do not think that and

of course I know that's gonna get me a lot of

hate mail Yeah, I would never say that nor do

I ever think that I just never as a kid I Again,

I've told this before in other shows as a kid.

I had a choice in 85 86 I was five or six years

old. I had a choice. I could either watch GI

Joe or transformers Well, I enjoyed the giant

transforming robots more than the highly articulated

army men So I gravitated towards Transformers.

Yes, I caught an episode of G .I. Joe here and

there, but I have no memories of watching that

show on a daily basis as a kid. As an adult,

I've gone back, and I've watched episodes of

Real American Hero. I absolutely love that series

for what it is. For what it is, yeah. Well, right.

Well, right. No, no, no. Because I mean, that's

one of the... Honestly, the only real cartoon

of the era that I haven't gone back and watched

is Transformers. because you know i wasn't as

much into it but like all right like none of

it holds up well i mean you know i love gi joe

but like the show doesn't hold up well and some

of these other ones are awful i mean you know

like the car the the toy based cartoons and even

some of the other ones aren't yeah hold up very

well but like i mean because i was trying to

like find one because i've got a friend who's

in gi joe the big schism isn't so much um Would

say at least with real American hero like like

I think there's like maybe three camps There's

the 12 inch camp and then the real American hero

camp is sort of split between comic and cartoon

Yeah, and I've got a friend who's comic and I

was really trying to find an episode to recommend

to him That's like this one isn't absolutely

terrible and I just I couldn't. Couldn't. I couldn't

find one. I mean, the closest one, like, involved

this giant protozoa and I thought, oh, people

actually died! And it ends with, like, Shipwreck

throwing apples at the thing and the guys didn't

die after all and I'm like, aww. Yeah. Well,

this is the thing, like... Out of all the online

fandoms, whether it's Star Wars, Thundercats,

Mask, Gem, Transformers, out of all the 80s properties,

fandoms online, honestly, I think G .I. Joe is

the most civilized out of them all and the one

that will unite no matter what. I know you went

to JoCon this year. Yeah. And that was that JoCon

seems to be probably the best specific fan -based

convention. It was very interesting because I

thought the mood was going to be a hundred and

eighty degrees different and considering everything

that was like stacked up against this convention

Because you know like there was there was the

movie that got I mean got pulled to the last

second Yeah, and that screwed up the toy line.

So everybody was mad at Hasbro, even though it

wasn't really their call Yeah, and the the convention

itself, you know the the the fan club had had

all those issues with the credit card, and people

had gotten really screwed over. And they had

to switch hotels at the last minute. So the hotel

we were at was not optimized for what they wanted

to do. So at one point, we spent like four hours

in this un -air -conditioned corridor in New

Orleans in July. Like and like the only place

to get water was on the other like literally

this mall slash hotel You had to run to the store

on the other side of the place to get water and

and but nobody was like I mean people were people

were grumbling and grousing and saying well What

this last year, but nobody was like, you know,

you suck, you know, come on move you dumbasses

Yeah, everybody was on and like I said, I wonder

if that's Because you know of all the big properties

GI Joe is the one that really until later on

Never had like the the central hero You know

I mean Duke sort of rose up towards the end of

the the vintage line But if you look at the the

actual you know like on the TV show it was for

half the first season it was Duke and then it

was Flint and Then it was sergeant slaughter

and it was slaughter in the Deke and then it

was Duke and then the comic book It's snake eyes.

I mean there was no You know, it was a team.

You know, they always say there's no I in team.